Current Magic Item Creation rules: Just too easy for such a large gain.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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I believe magic items have become such a common thing that the process for creating them has gotten just too easy. I remember when creating items was something the DM came up with because there were no rules but all that has changed. Now we are at a point where its not so much the class but the items we use to build it and the easy access of items is a reflection of this.

I believe the item creation rules are just too easy for the amount that you gain. For example: thw moment you take Craft Wondrous Items you know how to craft each and evey wonderous item there is. When a new book comes out that has wonderous items in it, you technically know how to create it automatically, all with just a single feat investment.

Personally I would like to see a heavier feat investment, followed by a heavier skill investment. I feel like the current rules make items feel like a mass produced retail item than a weapon or trinket of legend.


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Is this for real?


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Last I checked, you had a thread that was moved to the homebrew forum to fix the issues you perceive. Separate discussion threads seem to have been frowned upon by the mods.

Magic item creation in PF is meant to be easy, btw. If you don't like the magic item creation system in PF and want it to be more difficult then perhaps default Pathfinder isn't for you. I would say the best thing is to find another magic item creation system or a GM that will homebrew your preferred style.


shallowsoul wrote:

I believe magic items have become such a common thing that the process for creating them has gotten just too easy. I remember when creating items was something the DM came up with because there were no rules but all that has changed. Now we are at a point where its not so much the class but the items we use to build it and the easy access of items is a reflection of this.

You have a case of nostalgia. I know because there were rules in previous editions.

There were suggestions for the DM to add extra rules (flavorful things like capturing voice of a spider), but there were rules.
Heck, you got EXP whenever you created magic items.

Assistant Software Developer

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Shallowsoul, you might be interested in reading this essay at The Alexandrian.

In summary: description and character will go a lot further than mechanical hurdles for magic magic items feel unique and special.

An excerpt:

The Alexandrian wrote:

D&D -- and roleplaying games in general -- have always struggled with magic.

The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:
Elrond knew all about runes of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from the trolls' lair, and he said, "These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the west, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon horde or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongues of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!

Nifty.

Quote:

Player: We search the trolls' lair.

DM: You find a +1 goblin-bane longsword and a +3 longsword.

Less nifty.

Some would conclude from this that D&D just doesn't do magic very well. After all, what's magical about a +2 bonus to attack rolls or a +5 bonus to Hide checks?

The Alexandrian wrote:

So, yes, the blade we found in the troll lair was, in fact, a +1 goblin-bane longsword. That doesn't change the fact that it is also Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver of Gondolin -- a legendary blade lost to the elves when that proud city fell to dragons and orcish hordes.

The numbers are only empty and meaningless if you leave them that way. If you fill them with meaning (or start with the meaning and work your way back to the numbers), the problem goes away.

Assistant Software Developer

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shallowsoul wrote:
When a new book comes out that has wonderous items in it, you technically know how to create it automatically, all with just a single feat investment.

For my own personal opinion: Craft Wondrous Item doesn't grant you the knowledge to make every item automatically. That would be silly. Think of it more like being a chef. A spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Item knows his way around a kitchen, but just like a chef, he doesn't know every recipe there is in the world. But chef know how to cook without recipes (there's enough culinary reality shows around to prove that.) If they suddenly need to make a stir-fry, despite never having working in an asian restaurant before, a good chef will be able to make a reasonable facsimile.

In the same way, Fighter McGee walks into Mage McWizardton's item shop and says "I'm tired of monsters grabbing me and pinning me down where I can't even swing a sword. Is there anything you have that will, I don't know, light them on fire or fill them with spikes or something?". McWizardton has never made a shirt of immolation before: maybe he normally works more on bags of holding and elixers of love. Heck, maybe no one on that world had ever made one before. But he's still a wizard and he knows the flame shield spell, so he comes up with something. And the end result is a shirt of immolation.


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Ross Byers wrote:

Shallowsoul, you might be interested in reading this essay at The Alexandrian.

I've read the Alexandrian article, in fact I've read most of that site, I find it to be quite enlightening. But he misses something about 3.x dnd/ pathfinder that is more prevalent then people usually want to admit.

And that is the fact that those magic items, no matter how important, or how cool you describe, create history or name them, will be replaced. The game not only allows for but basically requires you to have a revolving door of magic items each slightly better then the last. This is especially true of those +x items often called the 'big six'. You could write 4 pages of backstory on FeySlayer the +1 Feybane sword and love it to death, but in a few levels, when that +3flaming sword turns up...its really hard to justify not setting a side Feybane. You need that extra umph to keep up with the ever scaling numbers in the game.

THAT is the problem that has to be addressed (and for the most part has been wholely ignored. That is the reason the magic item crafting rules are so easy, at least then you have a chance to enhance existing items instead of replacing them assuming you can find the downtime to do it (many adventures are too frantic for crafting and rely on found or purchased items).

One thing I have done in my home game is replaced the majority of the bunuses magic items give you with innane bonuses you choose from as you level up. They are sort of like feats but give bonuses to attack and damage, ac, natural armor, saves, and stats. With that system in place I divorced wealth from magic items, and removed the majority of it from the game. Now players get a handful of magic items over their whole career, and it isnt crippling to a character for the fighter to still be using Ignus the flaming sword of the last king of [insert ancient kingdom here] at 20th level just because he got it at 5th. Crafting feats besides wands, potions and scrolls dont exist, and magic item creation is left to the game world instead of the players.

Silver Crusade

One way I try and curve back the magic items is I dont scale the monsters exactly like the book wants them. In my games you dont have X gear at X level. There is less gear in my games so I keep monsters with lower CRs that way the PCs arent overwhelmed.

Silver Crusade

Ross Byers wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
When a new book comes out that has wonderous items in it, you technically know how to create it automatically, all with just a single feat investment.

For my own personal opinion: Craft Wondrous Item doesn't grant you the knowledge to make every item automatically. That would be silly. Think of it more like being a chef. A spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Item knows his way around a kitchen, but just like a chef, he doesn't know every recipe there is in the world. But chef know how to cook without recipes (there's enough culinary reality shows around to prove that.) If they suddenly need to make a stir-fry, despite never having working in an asian restaurant before, a good chef will be able to make a reasonable facsimile.

In the same way, Fighter McGee walks into Mage McWizardton's item shop and says "I'm tired of monsters grabbing me and pinning me down where I can't even swing a sword. Is there anything you have that will, I don't know, light them on fire or fill them with spikes or something?". McWizardton has never made a shirt of immolation before: maybe he normally works more on bags of holding and elixers of love. Heck, maybe no one on that world had ever made one before. But he's still a wizard and he knows the flame shield spell, so he comes up with something. And the end result is a shirt of immolation.

Ive done that as well. Whenever the group would find an item and they had appropriate crafting feat then I would allow them to add that item to their list of items they can create.

Silver Crusade

Cheapy wrote:

Last I checked, you had a thread that was moved to the homebrew forum to fix the issues you perceive. Separate discussion threads seem to have been frowned upon by the mods.

Magic item creation in PF is meant to be easy, btw. If you don't like the magic item creation system in PF and want it to be more difficult then perhaps default Pathfinder isn't for you. I would say the best thing is to find another magic item creation system or a GM that will homebrew your preferred style.

Then why do you bother announcing it?

You know where the flag button is.

Liberty's Edge

IF I invest in taking a feat on any sort of item creation well I expect to be actually able to craft the item. Otherwise Im not wasting time on any item creation feats if I have to go through a feat tax. We have enough of those. They also imo had to make it somewhat easier to make items because no one would take those type of feats if it was dofficult to make magic items. Easier to simply buy a item if it was too expensive and or too difficult to make. Or simply loot them from fallen enemies. Another problem with magic gear is that unless you housrule a +1 sword getting more powerful over time the weapon is replaced with a better weapon.

Liberty's Edge

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Shallowsoul you start some interesting threads yet seems to resent any feedback that is contrary to your op. Its not the way a fourm works. It makes one wonder if as a poster you trulty want to have a disucssion of the topic or just a echo chamber.

Silver Crusade

memorax wrote:
IF I invest in taking a feat on any sort of item creation well I expect to be actually able to craft the item. Otherwise Im not wasting time on any item creation feats if I have to go through a feat tax. We have enough of those. They also imo had to make it somewhat easier to make items because no one would take those type of feats if it was dofficult to make magic items. Easier to simply buy a item if it was too expensive and or too difficult to make. Or simply loot them from fallen enemies. Another problem with magic gear is that unless you housrule a +1 sword getting more powerful over time the weapon is replaced with a better weapon.

But you would be able to create items with multiple feats and I can promise you that people would still take them to create items. The Craft Wondrous Item feat is equivalent to any other feat you could take with it's requirement being you have to be 5th level except, the power of the Craft feats are a hell of a lot more greater.

I don't think people quite get the power and value of a feat who's only prereq is casting 3rd level spells.

I bet you any amount of money that if you break the craft feats into tiers then you would still have people taking them because of the value of crafting, especially if you have DM's that don't have magic shops in their campaigns.


As an aside, you don't have to replace your Awesome Backstory Sword - upgrading it is completely within the rules.

Adding New Abilities wrote:
Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. ... Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword ...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:

But you would be able to create items with multiple feats and I can promise you that people would still take them to create items. The Craft Wondrous Item feat is equivalent to any other feat you could take with it's requirement being you have to be 5th level except, the power of the Craft feats are a hell of a lot more greater.

I don't think people quite get the power and value of a feat who's only prereq is casting 3rd level spells.

I bet you any amount of money that if you break the craft feats into tiers then you would still have people taking them because of the value of crafting, especially if you have DM's that don't have magic shops in their campaigns.

I honestly don't think Craft Wondrous Item is as overpowered as you think it is.

So what if you can pick it up at level 3? Sure, over the long haul, Craft Wondrous Item gives access to a lot of pretty nifty goodies. But at third level, unless the DM screwed up, you're not going to have nearly enough monetary resources to make use of it. Yes, you gain potential of more items as you level, but it still relies on spending other resources (gold and time) to gain the benefit. Compare that to Power Attack, which is not only good enough for most melee builds to take at first level, but also scales just because you leveled enough times. Both scale because they would otherwise become worthless at higher levels -- most of the trinkets you could afford to craft at level 3 are just as inconsequential as +2 damage is at 15th level.

I'd also argue that the time required to craft is far more costly than the feat slot. Granted, this may be strongly related to my DM's campaign style. In my experience, just because I stop to upgrade my Cloak of Resistance doesn't mean that anything else stops. My enemies are still scheming and acting while we hand wave downtime. Sure, a finished Cloak of Resistance +4 would be really useful when we're trying to rescue the town... But if I wait long enough to finish crafting, the town's probably been destroyed already anyway.

If you want to keep adventuring while crafting, you're either ensuring that it will take ages to complete each item, or you pretty much have to buy a Ring of Sustenance. And, speaking from experience, once the rest of your party realizes how useful it is to sleep 6 hours less and not need to eat or drink, they're probably going to buy them, too. So then you're back to where you started, unless your party agrees that it's important to take the time to craft.

If you (as DM, presumably) find that your groups are getting too much in terms of crafting, then I'd say the first questions to ask are
1) Is the party receiving more loot to convert into gold for crafting than they should be?
2) Does the party have too much downtime to craft?
3) Are there tradeoffs involved in the crafting? E.g., do they have to make the decision between facing the BBEG with slightly less gear, or waiting an extra week while the BBEG causes more destruction?

Personally, if I were to make any changes to the crafting feats, I would actually roll Craft Wand, Rod, and Staff into one feat, and Forge Ring and Craft Magical Arms and Armor into another, and then leave Craft Wondrous Item as it is. The biggest problem I see is that Craft Wondrous Item is clearly the best of the crafting feats, and it's questionable whether any of the others actually give you enough benefit to justify losing out on other feat options (even if they're Wizard bonus feats).

Liberty's Edge

shallowsoul wrote:


But you would be able to create items with multiple feats and I can promise you that people would still take them to create items. The Craft Wondrous Item feat is equivalent to any other feat you could take with it's requirement being you have to be 5th level except, the power of the Craft feats are a hell of a lot more greater.

Would those multiple feats acutally be worth it though. Even though I dislike Feat taxes I dont mind taking feats if the feat in question is worth it. I would not mind seeing a variation of the rules where as you progress in levels you can build better and stronger items. Then again ome posters might then describe it as a video game. Im playing Skyrim and to build weapons of different materials I have to invest in skill choices to do so. While I do not mind truly exotic materials. Having to waste skill points in common items feels like a drag at least to me.

shallowsoul wrote:


I don't think people quite get the power and value of a feat who's only prereq is casting 3rd level spells.

Its powerful yet also limited by ho much money is needed to invest as well as th time needed. One thing I notice is a lot of Dms dont enfore the time aspect of item creation. If a item takes two days to craft the Wizard is not going anywhere until that item is crafted. As well crafted items can be stolen, sundered, or destryoed by certain creature abilites. Yes some creation feats are powerful. i happend to disagree that its that powerful .

shallowsoul wrote:


I bet you any amount of money that if you break the craft feats into tiers then you would still have people taking them because of the value of crafting, especially if you have DM's that don't have magic shops in their campaigns.

Players will still take them because of the value of crafting. mainly though because its a feat tax. Nor will some be happy about it. Or if more feats are needed they have to be really and I mean really worth it. Not only because its required for crafting.


ZZTRaider wrote:


I'd also argue that the time required to craft is far more costly than the feat slot. Granted, this may be strongly related to my DM's campaign style. In my experience, just because I stop to upgrade my Cloak of Resistance doesn't mean that anything else stops. My enemies are still scheming and acting while we hand wave downtime. Sure, a finished Cloak of Resistance +4 would be really useful when we're trying to rescue the town... But if I wait long enough to finish crafting, the town's...

True, but you can craft 4 hours each day instead of 8 (if you don't have that 4 extra hours while adventuring for example) or increase speed by adding +5 DC.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
True, but you can craft 4 hours each day instead of 8 (if you don't have that 4 extra hours while adventuring for example) or increase speed by adding +5 DC.

Sort of.

Crafting Magic Items wrote:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

So, I get in 2 hours worth of work in a day. Sure, I can double the speed by increasing the DC by 5, but if I can reliably do that, I'm going to be doing that regardless, so it doesn't really make a difference here. Either way, I'm only getting 25% of the crafting progress that I normally would.


shallowsoul wrote:
I bet you any amount of money that if you break the craft feats into tiers then you would still have people taking them because of the value of crafting, especially if you have DM's that don't have magic shops in their campaigns.

I'll take that any amount of money, because I have a table full of people every weekend who would never take it. Look, craft wondrous item is not the end all be all feat in the game. What it does allow is groups who have access to it the ability to actually choose what items they'll end up with. You still have to make those spellcraft rolls, you still need access to the spells that go into the crafting of each item. With Craft Magic Arms and Armor, there's level requirements that go into the crafting of weapons. The few times I've experienced DMs who were dead set against item crafting, it was because they wanted to control which items the group had access to with an iron fist. And half of what we ended up with never got used.

Item Crafting feats become more powerful in low magic item (or DM stingy, as I prefer to call them) games. You want to make items harder to come by? Just make them pay full price to craft them. Or better yet, make the group actually have to go retrieve the items that would go into the crafting.

shallowsoul wrote:
One way I try and curve back the magic items is I dont scale the monsters exactly like the book wants them. In my games you dont have X gear at X level. There is less gear in my games so I keep monsters with lower CRs that way the PCs arent overwhelmed.

This seems like it should be a decent fix on the surface, but it's really not. See, your Fighters, Monks, Rogues and to a lesser extent Rangers and Paladins depend a good deal on magic items. So your idea of keeping lower CR encounters longer tends to weaken in the face of the casters.

All that being said, run your games as you like. The great part about games is that you can house-rule to your heart's content as long as you have players who will play the game.


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My biggest issue is that having rules for magic item creation makes magic items mundane. Wondrous items aren't really all that wondrous anymore.

Finding a +1 goblin bane longsword with a name and history is cool. Creating your own is less cool. Creating the exact item you need to optimize your stats even less so.


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Bearded Ben wrote:

As an aside, you don't have to replace your Awesome Backstory Sword - upgrading it is completely within the rules.

Adding New Abilities wrote:
Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. ... Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword ...

Then it's no longer the same sword. The reforging of "Narsil" became "Anduril". While you can do this, it does nothing to address the "flavor" issue of legendary swords. After all, how legendary is a sword if you can make it three times better by throwing some gold at it?

I have addressed this in the past and in my present campaign by having actual legendary items. Those are items that only provide power proportional to the power of the owner. Unlocking the additional powers of the item requires sacrifice, quest or heroic achievement of some sort. Most of these items are intelligent and some even communicate with their owners. Some are even known in legend so it is possible a character could end up with a sword that they know has capabilities they have yet to unlock.

I've found this works much better than heading to Uncle Joe's Used Swords & Swap Meet every couple of encounters. I mean you CAN buy plain old magic stuff, but that's what they are, plain old magic stuff.

Silver Crusade

Doggan wrote:


This seems like it should be a decent fix on the surface, but it's really not. See, your Fighters, Monks, Rogues and to a lesser extent Rangers and Paladins depend a good deal on magic items. So your idea of keeping lower CR encounters longer tends to weaken in the face of the casters.

All that being said, run your games as you like. The great part about games is that you can house-rule to your heart's content as long as you have players who will...

I will say that my player's use teamwork heavily. The casters actually take spells like Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace to buff the melee guys as well as other spells that will help in combat.

They aren't spending several rounds trying to buff themselves while the other guys are pounding on the enemy.

At the end of the day, casters need those melee guys so they will use their spell resources to make sure they stay alive.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ZZTRaider wrote:
unless the DM screwed up, you're not going to have nearly enough monetary resources to make use of it. Yes, you gain potential of more items as you level, but it still relies on spending other resources (gold and time) to gain the benefit.

"Time" is simply not a "resource" in most Pathfinder games. It's nearly always simply a binary state controlled by the GM (or the published adventure). You either have the time to craft, or you don't.

Even if you've got an above-average GM who allows non-crafters to make use of the time the crafter is spending chained to the workbench, that's simply balancing a strong mechanical benefit (crafting) by roleplaying limits, and IMO that's almost never a good idea. (And that's aside from the logistical issues raised by the non-crafters getting to RP for eight hours a day (to whatever benefit) while the crafter's player sits around and twiddles his thumbs. Or, of course, just waits until the eight hours are up and then goes out for his share of the RP.

IMO, crafting is too good for the feat, especially Craft Wondrous Item. I changed it to be 70 percent of cost in my Jade Regent game, and IMO it's still too good.

Silver Crusade

At the end of the day the crafter and the rest of the party are ahead if he charges anywhere qbove 50% and below market value. He gets to pocket the rest and the other party members get to keep a bit in theirs.

Yes yes, I am aware of the argument about charging your party members anything above 50% but lets break it down.

Crafter & Noncrafter = both contribute in combat.

Crafter & Noncrafter = both contribute outside of combat through skills, spells, class features etc.

Crafter & Noncrafter = Crafter can craft items that save money and aggravation of trying to find magic items. Noncrafter doesnt contribute so I would say the crafter is well within his rights to charge above the half price marker.


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shallowsoul wrote:

I believe magic items have become such a common thing that the process for creating them has gotten just too easy. I remember when creating items was something the DM came up with because there were no rules but all that has changed. Now we are at a point where its not so much the class but the items we use to build it and the easy access of items is a reflection of this.

I believe the item creation rules are just too easy for the amount that you gain. For example: thw moment you take Craft Wondrous Items you know how to craft each and evey wonderous item there is. When a new book comes out that has wonderous items in it, you technically know how to create it automatically, all with just a single feat investment.

Personally I would like to see a heavier feat investment, followed by a heavier skill investment. I feel like the current rules make items feel like a mass produced retail item than a weapon or trinket of legend.

I can understand your urge to make items rare and special again.

However I have only found magic item crafting overpowered in the case where a crafter, crafts for the entire party and the GM allows this to inflate the parties WBL.

Yes, I know some people do not go by WBL and that is fine. However if you allow a party to craft and inflate their WBL without adjusting your Monster/NPCs/Trap/Challenges then the PC's will find most encounters easier than intended.

If that is what you want that is OK too.

I personally do not allow crafting to inflate WBL. In my games crafting is the only way to access items above town limits and it also allows for guaranteeing the specific items desired.

With that houserule in place I am thinking of making the following changes. Please feel free to comment.

Linky

In short I believe that magic can be rare and special without requiring PC's to invest half of their feats and half of their skill points in crafting.

People do love things like Profession (Soldier) and Profession (Sailor) in my games however, and I am always getting asked "Darn I wish I had more skill points to take Craft (Pottery)".

Anyway I hope you find a way that works for you. :-)

Silver Crusade

One thing I found with my group is the fact that once they know they can make the gear they want then dungeon crawling and exploration become a chore and finding items along the wayis just looked at as finding condensed gold . It has actually taken a good bit of the exvitement out of the game in that regard.

Silver Crusade

Starbuck_II wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

I believe magic items have become such a common thing that the process for creating them has gotten just too easy. I remember when creating items was something the DM came up with because there were no rules but all that has changed. Now we are at a point where its not so much the class but the items we use to build it and the easy access of items is a reflection of this.

You have a case of nostalgia. I know because there were rules in previous editions.

There were suggestions for the DM to add extra rules (flavorful things like capturing voice of a spider), but there were rules.
Heck, you got EXP whenever you created magic items.

You are mistaken when it comes to nostalgia. Nostolgia is doing something just because you did it in the past so you could relive it. People on many different boards have a habit of misusing the term when someone mentions how it was done before. Actually liking an old game mechanic or how something was done in the past isnt nostalgia, I'm not looking just to relive the "good old days", I actually like the concept better than what we have now.


I agree that magic items are too common, but the crafting rules are only a consequence of that, not really the cause, i think.

The game was built in such a way that gear is an integral part of the character. That's why there are set wealth by level values and rules and guidelines on how to award treasure to PCs. Now PCs in PF/DnD are adventurers in high fantasy settings, they delve into ancient tombs and ruins in search for treasure. When you are looking for treasure, you would naturally be disappointed if your hard fought battles through the Mines of the ancient dwarven clan Hammershield only turned up a bit of pocket change and a firendly pat on the back.
So you will need to give PCs a lot of gold so that their adventure feels worthwhile, and as they advance, become more powerful and fight more powerful monsters in more dangerous dungeons they will want to find even larger treasures.
So what do you do with all that money? Buy real estate, that will never amount to anything (at least not anything fun in an adventuring RPG)? You will want to spend it on gear you can use for adventuring. But what kind of adventuring tools could you buy that are possibly worth that much gold?
Once you have your masterwork weapons and full plate, spyglass, astrolabe, sextant and waterclock (not that anyone ever buys any of the latter four) you are pretty much out of things to buy with all that money. So that's where magic items come in. And where the problem begins. Magic items seem cheap and replacable because you're an adventurer and you routinely haul around piles of money that can sustain entire villages for months. You could make the items more expensive and less available, so that Players will really have to work before being able to afford something, but at there you quickly get to a point where a lot of the items just aren't worth it any longer.

I have been thinking about ways to replace magical items before, like with better materials (sort of like in the Elder Scrolls), but then it wouldn't make sense that a sword's price becomes steeper than that of armour. And generally the pricing would need to be higher for larger items, so that doesn't really work and the fact that there are armours and aand shields made of different materials to begin with, complicates the matter further.
Another idea was to use quality improvement like masterwork, but scaling up to +5 (to AC, and to attack and damage, as opposed to just Attack and Check penalty). The problem with that is it would require different crafting rules, a really well smithed sword does not require a hundred times the material cost of a regular off the shelf version, it mostly just needs more work. But the market prices would be more justifiable.

I think the best way to make this system work with less magic items is to make them sparse, but not more expensive. Only increase the intervals at which the pc gets magic gear, but then make the gear wrth the wait. That way you don't discard an extremely precious weapon for another even more precious weapon at every turn.
But I think this also causes some balance issues, as the PCs will get progressively weaker in context to their level, until their next fix of magic items, with boosts them up to or beyond their current supposed power level for a while.

So yeah, that's a thing.


mcv wrote:

My biggest issue is that having rules for magic item creation makes magic items mundane. Wondrous items aren't really all that wondrous anymore.

Finding a +1 goblin bane longsword with a name and history is cool. Creating your own is less cool. Creating the exact item you need to optimize your stats even less so.

I'm not sure, as a GM I have given out gear that I thought was amazing, but my players are fickle. To them it was like getting socks on Christmas when they wanted fancy chocolate.

Creating items for ones self adds style and uniqueness to the character. When in-story peoples see that item, its iconic. And players are most satisfied, and will be more attached to their characters if they get to personally customize him. I'm not sure who its less cool for, if not simply the GM.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Bearded Ben wrote:

As an aside, you don't have to replace your Awesome Backstory Sword - upgrading it is completely within the rules.

Adding New Abilities wrote:
Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. ... Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword ...

Then it's no longer the same sword. The reforging of "Narsil" became "Anduril". While you can do this, it does nothing to address the "flavor" issue of legendary swords. After all, how legendary is a sword if you can make it three times better by throwing some gold at it?

I have addressed this in the past and in my present campaign by having actual legendary items. Those are items that only provide power proportional to the power of the owner. Unlocking the additional powers of the item requires sacrifice, quest or heroic achievement of some sort. Most of these items are intelligent and some even communicate with their owners. Some are even known in legend so it is possible a character could end up with a sword that they know has capabilities they have yet to unlock.

I've found this works much better than heading to Uncle Joe's Used Swords & Swap Meet every couple of encounters. I mean you CAN buy plain old magic stuff, but that's what they are, plain old magic stuff.

This is a very good idea :)


I agree, but I tell my PCs up front that they won't be able to create any magic items outside of potions and scrolls. So they don't build characters that would want to. Magic item creation stays within the realm of special npcs in my games.


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shallowsoul wrote:
One thing I found with my group is the fact that once they know they can make the gear they want then dungeon crawling and exploration become a chore and finding items along the wayis just looked at as finding condensed gold . It has actually taken a good bit of the exvitement out of the game in that regard.

Fun for them or fun for you?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also have problems with the current magic item crafting system, but I come at it from a wholly different direction. My problem is that it distorts expected WBL, tends to overpower one player in the group over the others and makes found items irrelevant. Hence, I made some houserules to combat those problems. I'll just leave them here for people who might feel the same as I.

- Crafting price is 95% of market price, except for consumables, which stay with 50% crafting price to market price.
- Crafting times are sped up to 200%, i.e. 2000 gp per day and 4000 gp/day with the +5 DC modifier.
- Crafting time per day is reduced to two hours spent per day on crafting, one hour in quiet meditation/contemplation/concentration, one hour on actual crafting. The first hour is there to justify why "crafting while adventuring" gives only 50% result.
- Many crafting feats are consolidated. Feats remaining are Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Potions, Scrolls and Wands, Craft Staffs, Rods and Rings.
- The 50% mark-up for added secondary functions to items is eliminated. You still have to use existing wondrous items as they are instead of just crafting your own custom versions, i.e. +6/+6/+6 belts still cost 50% more on the second and third function.

Some of that stuff is very experimental, like consumables still being cheaper to produce and the prohibition on just creating better, cheaper versions of existing items. But as for the rest, the overall effect is to eliminate the imbalances to the system I described in the opening paragraph and make the crafting feats tools of customization, instead of money making machines. The upside for players is that they can craft faster and not have to spend all day in a laboratory, which benefits constantly "on-the-road" adventurers and unusual crafting classes, like Rangers or Druids, who you'd normally expect to do other stuff in the world than rubbing in magical powders into a bracer all day.

Arguments against my new mechanics have so far boiled down to "I'd never take those feats if I don't get my massive financial advantage!", "Crafting prices being so close to market price means that it doesn't make commercial sense for merchants to build big crafting factories" and "There is no problem with WBL, because I can balance the game easier than other GM's". I'm sure that other people will find other arguments against them. :)

Players having greater power to customize their characters with ease is not my problem, as long as it doesn't upset game balance. Keeping item crafting feats desirable while removing the money making factor was my greatest concern and I personally think I found a good balance.

Silver Crusade

I visualize "knowing" all wondrous items as rather a genius (24 INT) character making notes, studying, researching tomes in his spare time, and I like the kitchen/ingredients analogy because that's how we play it. But to require a player to "guess" at what he wants and have me look it up, it's much quicker for them to find the item and give a story on how they came to the process.

For flavor I borrow from a 2nd edition guide that laid out the magic item creation process. We don't alter the PF rules but rather use the detailed and interesting descriptions, including giving each item a "true name." I have contemplated a limit on the # of permanent items that can be created (much like older editions took 1 CON point each time, but instead with no mechanical penalty). The source book explained this as a fading, that the crafter put a bit of himself into each item.

I'm not sure whether crafting is broken yet as far as WBL, and I'm running a Kingmaker campaign with a ton of down time. Just had a 12th level character craft a weapon with +7 worth of enchantments. But now that PC has spent all her gold on one major item.


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Kolokotroni wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:

Shallowsoul, you might be interested in reading this essay at The Alexandrian.

I've read the Alexandrian article, in fact I've read most of that site, I find it to be quite enlightening. But he misses something about 3.x dnd/ pathfinder that is more prevalent then people usually want to admit.

And that is the fact that those magic items, no matter how important, or how cool you describe, create history or name them, will be replaced. The game not only allows for but basically requires you to have a revolving door of magic items each slightly better then the last. This is especially true of those +x items often called the 'big six'. You could write 4 pages of backstory on FeySlayer the +1 Feybane sword and love it to death, but in a few levels, when that +3flaming sword turns up...its really hard to justify not setting a side Feybane. You need that extra umph to keep up with the ever scaling numbers in the game.

THAT is the problem that has to be addressed (and for the most part has been wholely ignored. That is the reason the magic item crafting rules are so easy, at least then you have a chance to enhance existing items instead of replacing them assuming you can find the downtime to do it (many adventures are too frantic for crafting and rely on found or purchased items).

Not really. You can definitely do so, but the simple fact is you don't really need to constantly upgrade. I myself play in and run games that you're unlikely to come across magic weaponry very often. I use the standard pricing and item restrictions in the core rules and it prevents higher level magic items from being common. The "common" magic items are things like +2 swords and up to +3 armors. Things beyond this point are pretty uncommon in fact.

If you follow the NPC wealth rules, NPCs aren't going to be loaded down with magic items. For example, before a +1 weapon is practical to have as part of an NPC's equipment, the NPC would need to be around CR 8-9. That's pretty high in the grand scheme of things. So the likelihood of finding high value magic items and upgrading them without crafting them yourself is pretty poor, unless those items are found as part of a treasure horde or from a high-treasure monster drop, such as a creature with triple treasure (such as a Ghaele who is typically armed with a +3 to +5 magic weapon).

Big Six
Contrary to what you say, the big six are not the end all be all. You can buy the following items without issue in the game, based on the core rules.

+2 weapons (like a +1 dragon-bane sword)
+3 armors/shields (like +3 full plate)
+4 stat items (like gauntlets of ogre strength)
+4 resistance (like a cloak of resistance)
+2 deflection (like a ring of protection
+2 natural (like a amulet of natural armor)

Which is plenty. Several of my tabletop players don't even believe in the Big Six, because there are items they believe are more useful or critical for success or getting out of tough scrapes; but sticking to big six, let's see what we're looking at here.

Assuming we're around middle to mid-high level, we should be able to afford some or all of these things if purchasing them. Most people agree that it's common for most games to wrap up before 16th level (PFS only goes up to 12th, I believe). Yet with 108,000 gp (12th WBL) we should be able to comfortably afford a trio of +2 weapons (about 25,000 gp) such as a longsword, bow, and light weapon; full armor and shield (around 21,000 gp); ring, amulet, and cloak (32,000 gp); with 14,000 gp left over for other stuff (and you can do without most of these things if you have a caster in your party who can cast long duration buffs, in which case you can just bank on a few pearls of power and let one of your casters buff the snot out of your party each day).

The above is more than enough equipment to handle the types of challenges that you're expected to face in the game. Unless you're covering for special weakness or exceptionally poor strategies, you can make it on much less. As an example, a CR 16 horned devil's spells have a DC of 21. At 12th level with a +4 cloak of resistance and a couple of +2 stat magic items (yes, +2), you're looking at your base save +5. On your weak save you should have a 50% chance of successfully saving (weak save at 12th is +4, +5 brings to 9, and +2 base ability brings to +11, making for a 50/50% of beating DC 21). That's a 12th level PC's weak save, with only store-purchased gear vs a foe 4 CRs higher than the APL (beyond "Epic" encounter). That's before party-buffs like heroism.

So frankly, one can do all they need with traded magic items which some might consider "common". However, when they find "rare drop"* it will often be a prized find. Sure, a +1 merciful longsword "Wyvern's Cry" has been your bread and butter for many levels now, but after dropping the BBEG, it turns out that the GM included (or randomly generated) a +3 flaming battleaxe "Efreet's Grin". Sweet deal! Gonna main that one and keep Wyvern's-Cry as a backup.

Crafting Times
Crafting time is not a big deal either. It only takes 8 hours worth of crafting for 1000 gp worth of work you must do. If you're upgrading a weapon, you're only working on the difference. So if you purchase a +4 cloak of resistance for 16,000 gp and want to upgrade it to a +5 (the highest standard cloak of resistance) it will only take 9,000 gp worth of work. That is only 9-18 days (9 days if you have time to dedicate, or 18 days if you're crafting on the go). You are perfectly capable of handling high-end threats even with only purchase-able magic items, and can upgrade as you desire.

Most classes can do this as well. Out of the core rulebook, only 3 classes are incapable of being good crafters (Fighter, Rogue, Monk). Everyone else can craft moderately to very well (including Rangers, Paladins, Bards, etc). Effectively, unless the party just doesn't want to, the likelihood of simply lacking people who can craft magic items well is pretty slim (as Shallow points out, Craft Wondrous is only CL 3 requirement, which means even a 7th level Ranger or Paladin can fit it in early enough). If I'm a PC, I'll usually grab at least one item creation feat (typically Craft Wondrous, simply because I find it less limited in scope than Craft Magic Arms & Armor) so I can create or upgrade the items of my friends (and I often recommend everyone in the group take a creation feat or two so we can be well-rounded). Upgrading takes very time and is often do-able in increments.

For example, if I'm playing a caster (bard, cleric, druid, or wizard) I'll generally grab Craft Wondrous at 3rd. Then I'll make a few nifty things occasionally while we're doing our thing (favorites are elixirs and things like cloak of resistance). I'll usually craft everyone a +1 cloak of resistance. That's 500 gp / party member, and 1 day / party member. Then I'll begin upgrading them occasionally. Upgrading it to a +2 cloak takes only 3 days and 1,500 gp. Then +3 is 5 days and 2,500 gp. So on, and so forth. If there are multiple artisans in the party, we can split the burden. This is one of the many reasons that a party of Bard, Paladin/Ranger, Cleric/Druid, and Wizard is so highly regarded by myself (everyone contributes well).

Making vs Finding
This is one of the reasons I really like item creation feats. See, I like making items, and honestly I have more attachment to items that I've crafted and upgraded over multiple levels than I do for items that I just found somewhere. I really don't give a rat's ass about the 2nd King of Galson who wielded the fiery sword Flamestroker, compared to "Astral Spike" the +1 translucent adamantine psychokentic longspear that my own psion crafted and uses as her trademark weapon. All things being equal, I'd rather use my trusty longspear, but ol' 'Spike isn't so good against trolls so I'll bear it sometimes. :P

It's one of the things I don't like about WoW (crafted items aren't usually as good as the ones you get from PvP or dungeons) but love about Star Wars the Old Republic (in the Old Republic you can continuously upgrade certain items throughout the game, so you can still wear the same robes you got back at 10th level at 40th level because you upgraded them).

To me, it's far more awesome to make your own legendaries. Sure, "Astral Spike" began as nothing more than a +1 adamantine longspear. However, as it was upgraded and accompanied my heroine on her adventures it gains a legacy naturally.

"The Astral Spike is the weapon that was wielded and prized by *insert name* throughout her adventures. The weapon has the same properties of adamantine, but is translucent and appears to be a long piece of shimmering ectoplasm forged into a spear. Records indicate that the mighty weapon was present in conflicts such as the Barrows of Durgal, and in the War Times of the Skylo People on the floating fortress of Tur-Kador. Scholars have reason to believe that the weapon was eventually bestowed with sentience. A spark of its own master's mind. After she vanished, so too did the weapon. Some believe it awaits her inevitable return, or a new master whom its former owner would approve of."

The above is an example of an item that a psion PC of mine created as her personal weapon. She possessed it throughout her career. Some items that were found were sold or even consumed to enhance it (it says you need X gp worth of materials but not what those materials were, so often I'd note that I was dismantling certain magic items and using them at half value - sell price - as materials for my own item, so the astral spike often was constructed of different pieces of other items), and I added abilities that would be fitting and useful, and eventually made it an Intelligent magic item (an effective "sibling" to her psicrystal) and gave it some minor powers that it could use (it could do things like move about and shoot little ectoplasmic blades :P).

Upgrading or Not Upgrading
As to not setting aside "Feybane" for a +3 flaming sword (a huge improvement against most opponents, and likely a named sword of more power), I disagree. In your example, Feybane is still superior for fighting fey (it's a +3 equivalent weapon with a +2d6 non-resistible vs fey, versus a +3 with a +1d6 resistible). Sometimes, of course, some weapons are just stronger. That's part of the drive and feeling of progress.

Without the idea that you're going to get more and better, the excitement of progress and gain wanes heavily. Equipment simply ceases to matter in games where all equipment is equal and upgrading is seen as a bad thing. Honestly, I would be rather disappointed if we were braving terrors like the "Fortress of Hate" or the "The Pits of the Fiendlords" and wasn't really finding anything better than that sword that the goblin leader had back at 6th level. (o_o)

Especially when one of the classical motivators for adventurers is personal gain. Hell, even the Hobbit is about some dwarves that got uppity because a dragon stole their treasure they they want their treasure back! (@_@)

Drought or Flood

Quote:
One thing I have done in my home game is replaced the majority of the bunuses magic items give you with innane bonuses you choose from as you level up. They are sort of like feats but give bonuses to attack and damage, ac, natural armor, saves, and stats. With that system in place I divorced wealth from magic items, and removed the majority of it from the game. Now players get a handful of magic items over their whole career, and it isnt crippling to a character for the fighter to still be using Ignus the flaming sword of the last king of [insert ancient kingdom here] at 20th level just because he got it at 5th....

If I want to run a game where players don't receive magic items regularly (or more so than I already do by playing standard), I tend to adopt the method that Baldur's Gate I (the PC game) used. I call it the drought and flood effect. In BG I, the game initially begins with a very low-magic feel. Most foes you encounter are things like bandits, gibberlings, wolves, and the occasional ogre. Most enemies have some treasure, but magic items beyond potions and scrolls are fairly uncommon, and you can buy some +1 or sometimes +2 weapons in some stores (this is actually the way that it works in Pathfinder too). However, then you can find (or wrest from enemies) weapons and armaments that are above and beyond. Even most of the elite enemies you come across have few if any magic items (you'll encounter mid to high level fighters in things like some plate mail and using longswords), and the elite enemies drop +1 weapons (again, like Pathfinder!).

However, there are items in the game that are a cut above the rest by leaps and bounds. These are the items that I would consider to be of great power. Items like the Spider's-Bane which is a +2 greatsword (no biggie right?) that grants continuous freedom of movement when wielded (wow!). Or the Varscona (+2 frost longsword). Or the +2 shocking warhammer. There's an axe in the expansion that is barely magical at all but casts a potent dispel magic on those hit by it. Or a helmet that provides protection against fear and madness (which combos nicely with the +3 greatsword of berserking if I recall correctly). This drought/flood theory is that you don't have to have a ton of magic items if the ones you do have are exceptionally powerful. It works too.


I find crafting magic items too hard. It's too many feats to be able to make everything. If I know how to put a spell in a wand, why can't I put it in a wondrous item, or a potion, or my weapon, or a rod, or a staff? Why should I need craft wondrous items and magic arms and armor to make golems.

Or just a high enough Spellcraft. If I understand magic, why can't I imbue items with it? As a wizard, I can know every spell on my spell list. Why can't I also know how to manipulate those spells into items?


Khrysaor wrote:

I find crafting magic items too hard. It's too many feats to be able to make everything. If I know how to put a spell in a wand, why can't I put it in a wondrous item, or a potion, or my weapon, or a rod, or a staff? Why should I need craft wondrous items and magic arms and armor to make golems.

Or just a high enough Spellcraft. If I understand magic, why can't I imbue items with it? As a wizard, I can know every spell on my spell list. Why can't I also know how to manipulate those spells into items?

That was 1st edition AD&D (sort of). At a given level, a wizard would automatically craft item x (more or less like the progression we have with the feats)

Of course, there were no feats back then. And leadership was assumed as soon as you built a stronghold.

I have to ask, is your statement serious? It's pretty easy now.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:


Khrysaor wrote:


I find crafting magic items too hard. It's too many feats to be able to make everything. If I know how to put a spell in a wand, why can't I put it in a wondrous item, or a potion, or my weapon, or a rod, or a staff? Why should I need craft wondrous items and magic arms and armor to make golems.

Or just a high enough Spellcraft. If I understand magic, why can't I imbue items with it? As a wizard, I can know every spell on my spell list. Why can't I also know how to manipulate those spells into items?

That was 1st edition AD&D (sort of). At a given level, a wizard would automatically craft item x (more or less like the progression we have with the feats)

Of course, there were no feats back then. And leadership was assumed as soon as you built a stronghold.

I have to ask, is your statement serious? It's pretty easy now.

Yeah, in 1E you had to be 12th level to fabricate magic items in general. A lot of them were beyond PCs of any level. You had to be 7th level with the assistance of an NPC alchemist to make a potion. Iirc, at 12th level you could do potions on your own (but an alchemist assistant made it easier). Scrolls were doable at 7th level. Magic item construction involved special ingredients, labratories etc., NPC assistance and involved the possibility of failure. Given just how much experience it took a PC to hit 7th level (60,000) and 12th level (750,000) it wasn't anything you planned on doing right away. It's terribly easy in 3.x by comparison.


Crafting feats actually hurt to take IMHO. In a skull and shackles game I was involved with I played the cleric, and the only competent spell caster (the wizard was a mess, going for arcane trickster and going about it poorly, and the other 2 players were a party anchor ranger and an animal companion focused combat druid). Due to the structure of the AP, there is a ton of wealth, tons of downtime, and limited accessible ports (its not hard to temporarily piss off a major port by raiding the wrong vessel). Since I needed to be the party caster, healer, leader, skill monkey, face, I decided to take some craft skills. Making scrolls and wondrous items was a decent sized boon, but honestly it mostly made me +1 higher in the saves department, with some nifty utility items and having important condition removal on hand at all times. Nothing spectacular.

I would make some nice cloaks and other stuff for the party, but even with a generous wealth AP the party couldn't really afford beyond normal items at that level (maybe a little bit beyond, but a +1 here or there isn't a huge deal). Wealth is a finite resource if following a prepared adventure or using WBL treasure guidelines. Also, much of the loot that you find is stuff you sell at a 50% loss. Turning that back into usable items actually preserves the wealth, so its actually wbl neutral to craft assuming that you aren't getting most of your treasure in raw gold (and who really carries 200 pounds of gold that 10k gold represents, not to mention most coins in the world are likely copper or silver and are even more bulkly)

Getting back to my cleric, I had spent 2 feats for crafting purposes, and I really felt the loss of those feats in combat. I needed that nice gear to offset the mechanical loss of not having combat oriented feats. If it weren't for the fluffy named items we found (buccaneers breastplate, besmara's tricorn, brine's sting, blew out my WBL budget but I was the only party member that could use the stuff, and it seemed a waste for a cleric of besmara to sell any of that) I would have been a lack luster cleric despite pretty much carrying the party. Towards the end before the group broke up I could really feel behind the power curve, and the other party members even with my crafted items weren't much better off.


Crafting magic items is hardly an issue. it becomes expected at the higher levels. especially since finding the items your character needs to keep up isn't a given.

most wealth isn't found in the form of gold but in adventuring equipment. in fact, metropolises have spending limits unless your DM allows commissions. but commissions require additional fees at DM discretion.


We finally convinced our stalinist gm to let us use the crafting rules as printed in an adventure path. He doesnt trust them but in truth he's never played with anyone who has used them so he really doesnt have a baseline to judge them. So far the best item in our party is a pair of secret door finding goggles. There isnt a single item in the party thats worth more than any one thing we've gotten as treasure.

Our gm wants to be like the OP and lock everything down but it's not the way anyone else at the table wants to roll and he's the kind of gm that wants to have to do as little work as possibly on 'changing things to match the cr of the party'

We just finally were able to convince him that if you want to take away magic mart and take away crafting options that is going to create a lot of work for him.

Thankfully the other campaign we're in right now is one he's not running and its a warhammer campaign with a gm who's even more stalinist and grimdark than he is so if he wants a campaign to really feel gritty he's got an outlet for this prediliction of his that I freely admit that he's entitled to. I think we're keeping it easy. Some of us want a world where magic is easy to come by so for that we play pathfinder. Some of us want to storm the beaches of normandy armed only with a spoon and for that we have warhammer 1e. Everybody's happy.

So far.... -_-

Silver Crusade

Khrysaor wrote:

I find crafting magic items too hard. It's too many feats to be able to make everything. If I know how to put a spell in a wand, why can't I put it in a wondrous item, or a potion, or my weapon, or a rod, or a staff? Why should I need craft wondrous items and magic arms and armor to make golems.

Or just a high enough Spellcraft. If I understand magic, why can't I imbue items with it? As a wizard, I can know every spell on my spell list. Why can't I also know how to manipulate those spells into items?

Feat + gold + time (sometimes handwaved) is too hard?

Silver Crusade

Vincent Takeda wrote:

We finally convinced our stalinist gm to let us use the crafting rules as printed in an adventure path. He doesnt trust them but in truth he's never played with anyone who has used them so he really doesnt have a baseline to judge them. So far the best item in our party is a pair of secret door finding goggles. There isnt a single item in the party thats worth more than any one thing we've gotten as treasure.

Our gm wants to be like the OP and lock everything down but it's not the way anyone else at the table wants to roll and he's the kind of gm that wants to have to do as little work as possibly on 'changing things to match the cr of the party'

We just finally were able to convince him that if you want to take away magic mart and take away crafting options that is going to create a lot of work for him.

Thankfully the other campaign we're in right now is one he's not running and its a warhammer campaign with a gm who's even more stalinist and grimdark than he is so if he wants a campaign to really feel gritty he's got an outlet for this prediliction of his that I freely admit that he's entitled to. I think we're keeping it easy. Some of us want a world where magic is easy to come by so for that we play pathfinder. Some of us want to storm the beaches of normandy armed only with a spoon and for that we have warhammer 1e. Everybody's happy.

So far.... -_-

The style of game that I run is always presented in the beginning and the players then decide if they want to play it or not. If I want to run a light magic world and the players dont then we find someone else to run that type of game.

Silver Crusade

Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

Crafting magic items is hardly an issue. it becomes expected at the higher levels. especially since finding the items your character needs to keep up isn't a given.

most wealth isn't found in the form of gold but in adventuring equipment. in fact, metropolises have spending limits unless your DM allows commissions. but commissions require additional fees at DM discretion.

Its not really about funding what your character needs, its about getting those specific items that will fully optimize your character.

I always hated that in 4th edition they would suggest wishlists of items that you should place in dungeons for the PCs to find. My players absolutely hated this as well because it ended up being "oh look, I just happen to find the exact items that I needed for my specific build in that ancient dungeon". Took away the excitement.


shallowsoul wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

Crafting magic items is hardly an issue. it becomes expected at the higher levels. especially since finding the items your character needs to keep up isn't a given.

most wealth isn't found in the form of gold but in adventuring equipment. in fact, metropolises have spending limits unless your DM allows commissions. but commissions require additional fees at DM discretion.

Its not really about funding what your character needs, its about getting those specific items that will fully optimize your character.

I always hated that in 4th edition they would suggest wishlists of items that you should place in dungeons for the PCs to find. My players absolutely hated this as well because it ended up being "oh look, I just happen to find the exact items that I needed for my specific build in that ancient dungeon". Took away the excitement.

but higher CR foes require stronger items to defeat. because the bonuses are in the item. if you wanted to ignore magical equipment, let me point you to the legend tabletop rpg by rule of cool gaming. it is the one incarnation of D&D inspired d20 games that works just fine without magical gear.

if you don't want to allow crafting, you either have to tone back the monsters, or include wishlists.

Silver Crusade

Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

Crafting magic items is hardly an issue. it becomes expected at the higher levels. especially since finding the items your character needs to keep up isn't a given.

most wealth isn't found in the form of gold but in adventuring equipment. in fact, metropolises have spending limits unless your DM allows commissions. but commissions require additional fees at DM discretion.

Its not really about funding what your character needs, its about getting those specific items that will fully optimize your character.

I always hated that in 4th edition they would suggest wishlists of items that you should place in dungeons for the PCs to find. My players absolutely hated this as well because it ended up being "oh look, I just happen to find the exact items that I needed for my specific build in that ancient dungeon". Took away the excitement.

but higher CR foes require stronger items to defeat. because the bonuses are in the item. if you wanted to ignore magical equipment, let me point you to the legend tabletop rpg by rule of cool gaming. it is the one incarnation of D&D inspired d20 games that works just fine without magical gear.

if you don't want to allow crafting, you either have to tone back the monsters, or include wishlists.

Again, its beyond the "need". You need a certain number to hit a creatures AC, optimization is not getting to the point where you just hit, optimization is the point where you can hit their AC easily and you are doing way more damage than you normally should and passing skill checks by 10 or even 15 points above the DC.

You have players that feek likw their PC sucks if they arent squeezing everything out of the character that they possibly can which leads to combing all the books for that perfect item combination.


shallowsoul wrote:
I always hated that in 4th edition they would suggest wishlists of items that you should place in dungeons for the PCs to find. My players absolutely hated this as well because it ended up being "oh look, I just happen to find the exact items that I needed for my specific build in that ancient dungeon". Took away the excitement.

I agree. I think 'give me a list' and wishlists are wonky and break flavor in a way that crafting doesnt. The items I want as a character aren't really part of 'an ideal optimized character build' but leaving your gear choices up to gm fiat is kind of sledgehammering in a system where the monsters scale without gear but the player's characters dont.

Shadow Lodge

mcv wrote:

My biggest issue is that having rules for magic item creation makes magic items mundane. Wondrous items aren't really all that wondrous anymore.

Finding a +1 goblin bane longsword with a name and history is cool. Creating your own is less cool. Creating the exact item you need to optimize your stats even less so.

Plain old masterwork weapons are essentially unfinished pieces of crap hurriedly thrown together by a new apprentice.

Silver Crusade

Kthulhu wrote:
mcv wrote:

My biggest issue is that having rules for magic item creation makes magic items mundane. Wondrous items aren't really all that wondrous anymore.

Finding a +1 goblin bane longsword with a name and history is cool. Creating your own is less cool. Creating the exact item you need to optimize your stats even less so.

Plain old masterwork weapons are essentially unfinished pieces of crap hurriedly thrown together by a new apprentice.

*the look of excitement drains from his face as he looks at his newly aquired masterwork sword*

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