
Grizzly the Archer |
33 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |

So first of all, here's the tools so we can see what were dealing with...
Price 12,000 gp
Tools of this type always appear to be of the highest quality and wrought of the finest materials, most often mithral, darkwood, and adamantine. In the hands of a casual wielder, these items simply appear to be magically enhanced masterwork tools for a specific Craft skill (determined randomly), granting a +4 circumstance bonus on such skill checks. However, in the hands of a craftsman with 6 or more ranks in the selected Craft skill, the greater power of the amazing tools of manufacture becomes apparent. The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly. The wielder may take raw materials with a value equal to half the price of an object to be crafted, and produce a finished object in as little as 1 hour for an item with a final cost of 2,000 gp or less. For objects with a final cost of more than 2,000 gp, the wielder can perform 2,000 gp worth of work in a single hour, but only once each day. Only a single skill check is required to successfully complete the item, made on the last day of crafting and gaining the +4 circumstance bonus granted by the tools.
Bold and italic emphasis mine. The italic part is my main issue, but the entire bold part has me lead to believe that I can craft the other hours.
In the italics, it says I make one roll on the last day. How exactly am I to know what day that is. I would have to have a constant number, such as the 2,000 gp they mention, to use as a craft progress per day to figure out my time frame. Does that mean I can't craft the other 7 hours, out of 8 typically allocated for crafters for the day if they so choose? If you can craft during those other hours, what is the progress then, when do you roll for progress amount
Now some might say, why use the 2k gp for the one hour a day, if I can't craft more in the other 7 hours? Perhaps you could try faster, but for that to happen, your DC check, and min. succeed check both have to be over 118.3 ( lets say 119) to even pull off the same progress. That is impossible to reach, even at level 20. However I think you can do progress in the other 7 hours, but if so, do you roll for this? if not, do you roll at the end like you were supposed to (and if that occurs, you still don't the actual progress you did during the off hours.
So, if any of you are having issues with this like I am because of no define wording or ruling on this, please hit FAQ on this.
I also know that there is talks of restructuring the craft skill, and crafting in general altogether. If so, this will still be an important issue then.

Grizzly the Archer |
7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |

So I came here to update. I posted on James Jacobs thread to get a possible ruling. So,.here is the direct link.
He said that this is a perfect example of something that needs to get faq'd so the design team can get a ruling on this. This is the only thread that is discussing this item, yet it seems like a huge boon to any and all crafters. . I asked 3 specifics that currently based on current crafting rules, can't answer. Also, the item has a few issues with it. Per James's advice on having this faq'd, please hit the FAQ button on here.
Please hit the FAQ button on here so that we can get a ruling/ clarification on what the specifics are and what is to happen with this items crafting ability.

Isil-zha |
The way I read this you can only use this item for one hour each day.
This item is clearly meant to make crafting while adventuring a little more worthwhile, since the rules for crafting mundane items are insane.
I'm not even sure there are non-magical items that are that expensive, and the more often I read the description the more I doubt you can craft magical ones with them. (on the other hand the price of the tools seems to suggest that you can)
For mundane items I'd argue that you cannot make any additional progress using the regular crafting rules, mostly because that becomes a bookkeeping mess and is not really necessary either, these tools already speed up the process incredibly.
In case of magic items, if possible at all, I'd say you could continue crafting them the other seven hours if you have the downtime, but you only make the regular progress (875gp worth)
definitely faq'd it

Whale_Cancer |

I'm not even sure there are non-magical items that are that expensive, and the more often I read the description the more I doubt you can craft magical ones with them. (on the other hand the price of the tools seems to suggest that you can)
Wait untill I get my Amazing Tools of Manufacture (Ships).
In all seriousness, armor and weapons made out of special material are non-magical but can easily cost more than 2,000.

Grizzly the Archer |

They don't specify whether they can work for magical or non-magical only. Baaed on that, they can work for anything that would need a craft skill. This becomes better for true crafters who use the True Craftsman feat, to use their craft skill to make magical weapons or armor.
I also just noticed that, by the wording, how exactly do we craft with this item if we use the 1 hour option.
Find the item's DC.
Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
The Amazing Tools say we can craft at 1/2 the price. Ok.
Then they say we can craft up to 2,000 gp per day, for one hour. Ok.
So if I want to make Deathblade poison, which is probably the number one reason for me to use this item, especially with Master Alchemist feat, which costs 1,800 gp, I can do so. It has a DC Fort save of 20, meaning my DC check to succeed in making it, is a DC 20.
So lets say my level 10 ranger who likes to make different poisons for his arrows on those more uncommon instances, makes the deathblade poison.
Quickly, circumstance bonuses stack, unless they are practically the same thing. Here, I will take it that the amazing tools are equivalent to masterwork tools.
The rangers current skill check for craft alchemy is: 10 ranks, +3 class skill, + 4 circumstance bonus (Amazing tools), +5 competence bonus (cauldron of brewing), +1 circumstance portable alchemists lab
= +23 craft alchemy.
So unless he rolls a 1, I succeed in making the poison.
I only have to pay 900 gp to make the poison.
I take 10 on the roll, getting me a 33 DC craft check.
33 x 20 DC= 660 sp progress/ 18000 sp.
How exactly do I do 2,000 gp worth? Do I just roll to see if I succeed, and then just have the finished product in an hour?
To see how effective the item is, if I assume that they just make the item without really showing how in 1 hour, then to make the same check...
18000 sp progress / DC 20 craft poison= +900 Craft alchemy score needed to make the same item in the same 1 hour, without the instant done option.
This item just makes no sense.
@whale Cancer: I actually am in the starting process, (so basically in my head so far), for a pirate/ship oriented campaign or world. Amazing tools set for ships would be the #1 item the party would need, or the shipwright would have. Didn't think of it till now, so will definitely have to do that. Thanks for the idea.

Isil-zha |
Isil-zha wrote:I'm not even sure there are non-magical items that are that expensive, and the more often I read the description the more I doubt you can craft magical ones with them. (on the other hand the price of the tools seems to suggest that you can)Wait untill I get my Amazing Tools of Manufacture (Ships).
In all seriousness, armor and weapons made out of special material are non-magical but can easily cost more than 2,000.
Haven't looked at the crafting rules in a while, does the special material cost influence the crafting time or is that just a cost added and the crafting time still works off the base sp value?

Whale_Cancer |

Whale_Cancer wrote:Haven't looked at the crafting rules in a while, does the special material cost influence the crafting time or is that just a cost added and the crafting time still works off the base sp value?Isil-zha wrote:I'm not even sure there are non-magical items that are that expensive, and the more often I read the description the more I doubt you can craft magical ones with them. (on the other hand the price of the tools seems to suggest that you can)Wait untill I get my Amazing Tools of Manufacture (Ships).
In all seriousness, armor and weapons made out of special material are non-magical but can easily cost more than 2,000.
It's part of the base cost of the item for which you determine the sp value. I'm not sure how it works with masterwork being a separate component, given the cost of the masterwork is part of the material. It is obviously an area of the rules they didn't really think out.
It takes years to hammer all that adamantine! Hard as hell.

magnuskn |

If you are crafting magic items with the Master Craftsman feat, of course I'd allow them to used.
In fact my houseruled magic item crafting rules oriented themselves after the Amazing Tools of Manufacture. ^^

Sir Gavvin |

So.....
These tools are usable 1 time per day for 1 hr, allowing you to craft 2,000 GP worth of items?
Spend 1 hour per day for 6 days crafting another set of tools.
Spend 2 hours per day (2 sets of tools) for 3 days creating a third set
Spend 3 hours per day for 2 days creating a 4th set
Repeat until you have 8 sets, since you can craft for 8 hours per day.
Craft any Wondrous Item up to 16,000 gold in one day.

Grizzly the Archer |

The second part of the tools leads me to believe it's just a flat 2,000 gp progress. If that's the case, why do I roll? To see if I succeed?
@magnuskun: how so?
@sir Gavin: hmm, not a bad idea. it will cost me 46k gp to make them all, and I can do so using the master craftsman feat. although, I doubt my gm will approve of me using 8 of them, even if tied to the same craft skill type.
---
And do they have the 2,000 gp price as the final total cost, out the final raw material cost? If the first, then you can do up to 4k gp. If the later, then it's as is with 2k gp.

Isil-zha |
The second part of the tools leads me to believe it's just a flat 2,000 gp progress. If that's the case, why do I roll? To see if I succeed?
Yes, that is always the case, you roll for magic item creation to see if you succeed in the creation if you fail badly it may even backfire and you create a cursed item. And even when creating mundane items you only make progress if your roll exceeds the DC, if not there's no progress and maybe even a waste of base materials.

Whale_Cancer |

So.....
These tools are usable 1 time per day for 1 hr, allowing you to craft 2,000 GP worth of items?
Spend 1 hour per day for 6 days crafting another set of tools.
Spend 2 hours per day (2 sets of tools) for 3 days creating a third set
Spend 3 hours per day for 2 days creating a 4th set
Repeat until you have 8 sets, since you can craft for 8 hours per day.
Craft any Wondrous Item up to 16,000 gold in one day.
What craft skill can be used to craft any wondrous item?

Grizzly the Archer |

Sir Gavvin wrote:What craft skill can be used to craft any wondrous item?So.....
These tools are usable 1 time per day for 1 hr, allowing you to craft 2,000 GP worth of items?
Spend 1 hour per day for 6 days crafting another set of tools.
Spend 2 hours per day (2 sets of tools) for 3 days creating a third set
Spend 3 hours per day for 2 days creating a 4th set
Repeat until you have 8 sets, since you can craft for 8 hours per day.
Craft any Wondrous Item up to 16,000 gold in one day.
Craft-tools, craft-machines, profession- tool maker, profession- craftsman,

Whale_Cancer |

Whale_Cancer wrote:Craft-tools, craft-machines, profession- tool maker, profession- craftsman,Sir Gavvin wrote:What craft skill can be used to craft any wondrous item?So.....
These tools are usable 1 time per day for 1 hr, allowing you to craft 2,000 GP worth of items?
Spend 1 hour per day for 6 days crafting another set of tools.
Spend 2 hours per day (2 sets of tools) for 3 days creating a third set
Spend 3 hours per day for 2 days creating a 4th set
Repeat until you have 8 sets, since you can craft for 8 hours per day.
Craft any Wondrous Item up to 16,000 gold in one day.
Profession (craftsman) is obviously abusive. It makes the Craft skill obsolete.
profession- tool maker should be Craft (tools) or, better, Craft (Blacksmith).
What is craft(machines)? The closest thing to that in-game is craft(clockwork).
While nonstandard professions and crafts are allowed, they need to be allowed on a case-by-case basis. The ones you suggest don't fit in with the existent examples.
I also don't see how any of them (beyond the abusive profession(craftsman)) would apply to, say, a cloak of resistance.
You are trying to twist and abuse the tools.

Grizzly the Archer |

I was giving quick examples of how someone with craft can make the tools, nothing more. I'm not tring to twist anything. As for the profession craftsman, yes abusive, if you think it applies to all crafts. I should've said master craftsman, with wood and so forth, a carpenter as it were. Also, existent examples are just that, examples. They are not rules, guides, or walk troughs. So if I want craft- mechanics, or profession-engineer, I can have those. They can make clocks, wind chimes, water retention center for intermittent use ( a shower), or whatever else you want. As long as the DM approves it. And also, I've never seen a DM not allow a player to have a specific craft or profession, unless it was craft( any) and your one of those people wo thinks that it means everything, and not just any at one given time.
Also, there is no craft for any wondrous item. Your mention of cloak or vest of resistance can be. Craft- fabrics, or clothing, or profession- tailor, those could make the vest or cloak.

Whale_Cancer |

I was giving quick examples of how someone with craft can make the tools, nothing more. I'm not tring to twist anything. As for the profession craftsman, yes abusive, if you think it applies to all crafts. I should've said master craftsman, with wood and so forth, a carpenter as it were. Also, existent examples are just that, examples. They are not rules, guides, or walk troughs. So if I want craft- mechanics, or profession-engineer, I can have those. They can make clocks, wind chimes, water retention center for intermittent use ( a shower), or whatever else you want. As long as the DM approves it. And also, I've never seen a DM not allow a player to have a specific craft or profession, unless it was craft( any) and your one of those people wo thinks that it means everything, and not just any at one given time.
Also, there is no craft for any wondrous item. Your mention of cloak or vest of resistance can be. Craft- fabrics, or clothing, or profession- tailor, those could make the vest or cloak.
Each set of tools has to be attuned to a specific craft skill.
Thus, your claim that those tools could "Craft any Wondrous Item up to 16,000 gold in one day" is incorrect. To be honest, I also am not sure how these are supposed to be used in relation to wondrous items.
Of course, if I understand what you are trying to say, you are arguing that you could use master craftsman via the tools of manufacture to make anything? I'll leave that discussion to the active thread on the topic, but I obviously don't agree.
What is the case, however, is that the mundane use of these tools will be restricted to items actually craftable by said skill.
Also, there is no craft for any wondrous item. Your mention of cloak or vest of resistance can be. Craft- fabrics, or clothing, or profession- tailor, those could make the vest or cloak.
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
It is up to DM fiat. At my table, I would require craft(clothing) as this is precedent for it in the skill description. I don't really see a reason to introduce new crafts and professions unless you are in a homebrew world that has something that falls outside of the scope of those crafts and professions given. Craft (cloth) is close to your example of fabrics, I don't see why you would introduce craft (fabrics) if craft (cloth) is already supported. That skill also couldn't make a cloak, but it could spin wool into cloth (or silk into silk fabric, etc.,).

Grizzly the Archer |

... You need to read the previous posts better. I never claimed you could do 16k gp worth in a day wi multiple amazing tools, that was the other poster. I know the tools are attuned to a specific craft skill. Honestly, I posted about specifics on rules that can't be answered, not about misreadings you think I'm having.
Again, it depends on the item. If I wanted to craft 16k gp crafting in a day for one item, which wasn't my idea, or even if 2k gp, using the master craftsman feat allows me to make any item that needs the wondrous item creation or craft arms and armor feat, as f my ranks are my caster level. I still need all other prerequisites. For any magic item, the tools would need to be set to a craft skill that aligns well with the item being created. As for the actual amazing tools, for bei made, they have true craftsman and wondrous magic item crafting as their feats. Again, those crafts/ professions I listed above we're for making the tools themselves, not all items.
The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.
Also, just because they give craft cloth as an example doesn't mean craft - fabric doesn't exist. They are examples, not set rules to have the craft set to that.
So again, don't start accusing me of something I never mentioned, started or said. This thread is for the amazing tools on how they aren't working perfectly, and how to have it issues settled vid the FAQ button.

Whale_Cancer |

... they have true craftsman and wondrous magic item crafting as their feats...
You mean Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item. To repeat, we obviously disagree on how Master Craftsman works.
So again, don't start accusing me of something I never mentioned, started or said. This thread is for the amazing tools on how they aren't working perfectly, and how to have it issues settled vid the FAQ button.
I find it really hard to understand your argument, so I'll just bow out of this thread.

Threadmiser |

I did a little math for an item: an adamantine suit of mountain plate. With the basic crafting rules (no magic tools or special forges) it would take something like 650 years of constant work to make one suit. I know the rules exist to keep campaigns moving and stop players from camping out until they can equip themselves with the most awesome stuff ever, but they really should be able to make stuff if they have the skills.

Whale_Cancer |

I did a little math for an item: an adamantine suit of mountain plate. With the basic crafting rules (no magic tools or special forges) it would take something like 650 years of constant work to make one suit. I know the rules exist to keep campaigns moving and stop players from camping out until they can equip themselves with the most awesome stuff ever, but they really should be able to make stuff if they have the skills.
I see the amazing tools of manufacture to be a stealth way of solving that problem.
Not ideal, but it works. I had some of these scattered about a campaign where the party didn't have access to normal shops... alas, they never found any.

magnuskn |

@magnuskun: how so?
I'll assume you were asking about my houserules. Basically, I made magic item crafting cost 95% of market price and in return consolidated a lot of crafting feats and made crafting faster with both time to finish the item ( 2.000 gp per day, with the +5 DC possibility doubling that to 4.000 GP per day ) and time spent per day ( 2 hours, 1 hour in concentration, 1 hour actual crafting ). The last part took the Tools as inspiration, with one hour for concentration added to explain why working in a disruptive environment still haves crafting progress.

Grizzly the Archer |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |

Grizzly the Archer wrote:@magnuskun: how so?I'll assume you were asking about my houserules. Basically, I made magic item crafting cost 95% of market price and in return consolidated a lot of crafting feats and made crafting faster with both time to finish the item ( 2.000 gp per day, with the +5 DC possibility doubling that to 4.000 GP per day ) and time spent per day ( 2 hours, 1 hour in concentration, 1 hour actual crafting ). The last part took the Tools as inspiration, with one hour for concentration added to explain why working in a disruptive environment still haves crafting progress.
That's interesting. My DM would never do something like that, but it's cool.
Also, BUMP.
Please hit the FAQ on this so we can get a ruling, especially when the crafting rules get a better clarification in the future.

jhpace1 |

Strictly hypothetical question regarding potential abuse of the crafting system:
Case 1: Crafter with appropriate Craft skills makes 100 masterwork arrows in an 8-hour day. Not unreasonable, only 12-13 arrows an hour. Start with 100 masterwork arrow heads on the anvil during the first 3 hours, letting them cool 3 hours while you do the fletching. The last hour is putting them together and volia! 100 masterwork arrows. You spent 2.33 gp each arrows to get 7 gp back, or 233.33 gp for 700 gp.
You then sell the masterwork arrows for 1/2, or 350 gp. Profit = 116.67 gp. More than the rules say you make for a week of your Craft skill check. Not bad.
Case 2: Crafter makes 100 masterwork arrows, then steps back as a Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, or Summoner and casts Lesser Planar Binding with a Magic Circle Against Good to get a Lantern Archon. He convinces the Lantern Archon with the appropriate tithe or offering (100 gp) to cast Continual Flame on the arrow heads. The Lantern Archon agrees and 100 seconds later all the masterwork arrows are now masterwork arrows with Continual Flame (7+50), but the spellcaster didn't have to pay 50 gp per arrowhead per the Continual Flame spell. Profit? 2,633.33 gp for one's day's work.
Case 3: Crafter uses Amazing Tools of Manufacture (Fletching) to make 100 arrowshafts with Amazing Tools of Manufacture (Weaponsmithing) to make 100 iron arrowheads. Costs of the AToMs notwithstanding, in two hours he just did the work of eight. (Now we get into nitpicky "one object" and "per day" and the cost of two AToM.) The cost was higher, 1/2 instead of 1/3, or 350 gp instead of 233.33 gp. Profit is zero because the manufacturing cost equals the sell price, or 1/2. The only thing the crafter has saved is time. Unless there's more AToMs available for the next 6 hours. Or he Planar Binds another Lantern Archon. Or he uses those 6 hours for other crafting (possible? Not possible?).
So I would say that Amazing Tools of Manufacture is excellent for when you are "crafting on the run" and planning on using said manufactured product(s), but not for making stuff to sell. It saves time, not money.