How useful is Invisibility as a caster?


Advice


Oooookay.

So, since my specialist conjurer has just hit 4th level, the topic of invisibility, how useful it is, and how to adjudicate it has come up for our group.

My GM has referred me to two resources.

First, the spell itself: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/invisibility.html
Second, the various modifiers on detection and how to apply them: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility

So from what I read there, the deal is that if I'm stealthy and don't move, I have a +40 to a stealth check to be undetected.

If I 'speak' though, no stealth check, and a -20 to their perception DC ... which is normally 20.

So if I'm invisible, and I cast within 30 feet of an enemy, their DC to pinpoint me is 0, correct?

Is there something I'm missing, or is invisibility fairly useless if you'd like to also cast?

I was originally thinking that since summoning and buffing doesn't drop me out of invis, that might be worthwhile, but now I'm reconsidering.

Thoughts?

---Myca


The trick is to cast, THEN move (pref. using stealth). Makes you much harder to pinpoint.

And even if they pinpoint you, there's still 50% miss chance.

Also, Silent Spell (ideally on a rod).


You're 30 feet away so the DC will be at least 3.

Get Silent Spell if you wanna be invisible and cast verbal spells. Not all spells have verbal components so far as I remember.


Corlindale wrote:
The trick is to cast, THEN move (pref. using stealth). Makes you much harder to pinpoint.

Ah, of course. Brilliant. Additionally, if they do end up spending all of their time making perception checks and scurrying over to where I used to be, so much the better.

Also, my character is specialized in teleportation, so I've got the blink-from-place-to-place power, which this pretty much seems like it was designed for.

Corlindale wrote:
And even if they pinpoint you, there's still 50% miss chance.

As much as I'd rather not rely on that, half of why I was looking at Invisibility was as a way to make summoning less of a 'sitting duck' situation, so it's good that even if they pinpoint me, I've still got a chance.

Corlindale wrote:
Also, Silent Spell (ideally on a rod).

Sure, of course. It's just that I'm 4th level, and just finishing up the first adventure in Rise of the Runelords, so the loot has been a bit sparse thus far, and I doubt I'll be able to afford it for a while.

Thanks so much for the help!

---Myca


You also can't be targeted by a spell, even if you're pinpointed.

My fey sorcerer is nearly always greater invisible and flying during fights, and it's really just useless to try to fight her outside of enemies with True Seeing or See Invisibility - and even that won't work when she's eventually 16th level (Mind Blank).

Invisibility is far-and-away the single best defense a caster can use.

Shadow Lodge

Myca wrote:

If I 'speak' though, no stealth check, and a -20 to their perception DC ... which is normally 20.

So if I'm invisible, and I cast within 30 feet of an enemy, their DC to pinpoint me is 0, correct?

Not sure you're applying modifiers correctly here.

It's +20 to notice an invisible character is present in the general area.
It's +40 to pinpoint their square.

If you're in combat or speaking, it's -20. Absent stealth, it's 20-20 = DC 0 to notice you're there, but 40-20 = DC 20 to pinpoint your exact square.

Moving after casting also works, but it's not as though as soon as you speak they automatically know exactly where you are. They just know "hey, there's a voice coming out of nowhere, there's clearly a hidden or invisible person around." They have to make the DC 20 check, or hunt around mechanically, or use an anti-invisibility spell to actually locate you.


Weirdo wrote:


It's +20 to notice an invisible character is present in the general area.
It's +40 to pinpoint their square.

If you're in combat or speaking, it's -20. Absent stealth, it's 20-20 = DC 0 to notice you're there, but 40-20 = DC 20 to pinpoint your exact square.

That's the stuff! Loving this.

Scenario:

I'm invis. I'm in some random square (within 30 feet, because I don't think I've seen a room yet in RotRL that isn't smaller than 30 feet across) and I begin casting.

As soon as I begin casting, all the enemies within 30 feet get a reflexive perception check at DC:0 to notice that I exist, and one at DC:20 to pinpoint me.

I then stealth out of there (thank you +4 Dex bonus). Everyone within 30 feet gets a reflexive perception check at DC:(Stealth check +20) to notice that I exist, and one at DC:(Stealth check +40) to pinpoint me. is that right?

IF any of them pinpointed me from my casting, they'll be going to my old square (which is awesome). The only case where someone would be actually coming after actual me is if they succeeded at the 'Stealth check +40' perception check, right?

---Myca

Silver Crusade

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And here I thought the main purpose of invisibility was to cast it on the party rogue.


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Fromper wrote:
And here I thought the main purpose of invisibility was to cast it on the party rogue.

Our rogue is a lovely young woman, but I happen to be a worshiper of Asmodeus, and giving a crap about whether she gets hit in combat is actually against my religion. ;)

Silver Crusade

It's not about protecting the party rogue. It's about helping the rogue sneak up on your enemies to get sneak attacks, so your group can kill them more easily. It's offensive teamwork, rather than using the spell for defense.

Dark Archive

I've always wanted to play an Asmodean Cleric, so just curious, do you happen to keep a contract with each party member, verbal or written, about the edicts and do's and dont's, or are you just playing selfish?

Shadow Lodge

Myca wrote:
Weirdo wrote:


It's +20 to notice an invisible character is present in the general area.
It's +40 to pinpoint their square.

If you're in combat or speaking, it's -20. Absent stealth, it's 20-20 = DC 0 to notice you're there, but 40-20 = DC 20 to pinpoint your exact square.

That's the stuff! Loving this.

Scenario:

I'm invis. I'm in some random square (within 30 feet, because I don't think I've seen a room yet in RotRL that isn't smaller than 30 feet across) and I begin casting.

As soon as I begin casting, all the enemies within 30 feet get a reflexive perception check at DC:0 to notice that I exist, and one at DC:20 to pinpoint me.

I then stealth out of there (thank you +4 Dex bonus). Everyone within 30 feet gets a reflexive perception check at DC:(Stealth check +20) to notice that I exist, and one at DC:(Stealth check +40) to pinpoint me. is that right?

IF any of them pinpointed me from my casting, they'll be going to my old square (which is awesome). The only case where someone would be actually coming after actual me is if they succeeded at the 'Stealth check +40' perception check, right?

---Myca

Invisibility only gives you +20 to your stealth roll if you move. I'd say, if you're moving it'd be DC (Stealth roll) to notice that you moved, and DC (Stealth roll +20) to pinpoint where you went after you moved.


Fromper wrote:
It's not about protecting the party rogue. It's about helping the rogue sneak up on your enemies to get sneak attacks, so your group can kill them more easily. It's offensive teamwork, rather than using the spell for defense.

Sure. I was joking earlier, but I get that.

I guess I just think that invis is too useful as a sustained spell at my level to spend on a measly +1d6 damage. I mean, stone call does 2d6 to an area, you know?

As I get more Level 2 spells, and as our rogue's sneak attack becomes more useful this will change, but right now, I think it makes more sense tactically for me to be free to buff and summon.

Silver Crusade

The rogue's sneak attack damage should be +2d6 at the level that a wizard gets invisibility, and it only goes up from there. Plus, if you cast it before combat starts, you can help the rogue get into position for the SA, and still get your Stone Call or something else off in the first round of combat while the rogue is doing that damage.


Wittkyrd wrote:
I've always wanted to play an Asmodean Cleric, so just curious, do you happen to keep a contract with each party member, verbal or written, about the edicts and do's and dont's, or are you just playing selfish?

No, no, I'm not that complicated. I'm actually just LN, and not a super-committed Asmodean. My character is loosely based on Johannes Cabal, and is Asmodean as a matter of convenience.

I anticipate that part of my character's ongoing developments will be discovering that he's more cantankerous than actually evil, and splitting with the church. Which I'm sure will go over swimmingly.

---Myca


In my experience invisibility is one of the least utilized spells.

I use the heck out of it when I have a caster that can cast it. When I GM my players have to deal with invisibility all the time.

Vanish is almost as good.

For most casters invisibility allows them to move into the most tactically advantageous position possible before casting their main spells. For summoners, healers or buffers, invisibility can keep them from being targeted while they provide the full benefit of their powers to the encounter.

In general the trick is to always do something while invisible and THEN move, as opposed to moving and THEN doing something. Unless you are a rogue, then moving while invisible gives the opportunity for sneak attacks.

If I am playing a non-caster who benefits from invisibility and I have a caster in the party who can cast invisibility, I will usually purchase a pearl of power and give it to the caster to offset the casting of invisibility on my character. I find casters who have been given a recharge ability are far more amenable to casting spells I like on my character.

Invisibility is frequently overkill for the situation since "vanish" usually provides the same benefit from a lower spell slot.


Serum wrote:
Invisibility only gives you +20 to your stealth roll if you move. I'd say, if you're moving it'd be DC (Stealth roll) to notice that you moved, and DC (Stealth roll +20) to pinpoint where you went after you moved.

I think it depends on whether the penalty for speaking/casting carries with me once I stop speaking and start stealthing.

It would be a little weird for the logic to be "you spoke this round, so they can pinpoint you in this square 25 feet away from where you spoke."

---Myca


Fromper wrote:
The rogue's sneak attack damage should be +2d6 at the level that a wizard gets invisibility, and it only goes up from there. Plus, if you cast it before combat starts, you can help the rogue get into position for the SA, and still get your Stone Call or something else off in the first round of combat while the rogue is doing that damage.

Yeah, our rogue multiclassed with Alchemist, so she's only got 2 rogue levels ... still stuck at 1d6.

Sczarni

Don't forget-- even if they pinpoint you, they still can't SEE you. Which means they don't know if you're a human, or a vampire, or a ghost, or who knows what else. They also don't know whether or not you've got a weapon pointed at their heads. How's your Bluff bonus?


Okay, question #2

I'd assumed that "in combat" meant, "engaged in hand-to-hand."

My GM is interpreting it as "in combat means if you are an active participant in the fight... ie Initiative roll and have acted."

If that's the case, then anytime there's a fight (which is the vast majority of when I'll be using invisibility), I would have the -20 'in combat' modifier to be detected.

Does that seem ... off to anyone?

---Myca

Sczarni

Myca wrote:

Okay, question #2

I'd assumed that "in combat" meant, "engaged in hand-to-hand."

My GM is interpreting it as "in combat means if you are an active participant in the fight... ie Initiative roll and have acted."

If that's the case, then anytime there's a fight (which is the vast majority of when I'll be using invisibility), I would have the -20 'in combat' modifier to be detected.

Does that seem ... off to anyone?

---Myca

The -20 modifier doesn't apply to YOU, it applies to the person trying to FIND you. If someone is currently fighting for their life, they're going to have to pay attention to that, not pinpointing the footfalls of an invisible person that or may not be just leaves in the breeze.

Shadow Lodge

Myca wrote:
Serum wrote:
Invisibility only gives you +20 to your stealth roll if you move. I'd say, if you're moving it'd be DC (Stealth roll) to notice that you moved, and DC (Stealth roll +20) to pinpoint where you went after you moved.

I think it depends on whether the penalty for speaking/casting carries with me once I stop speaking and start stealthing.

It would be a little weird for the logic to be "you spoke this round, so they can pinpoint you in this square 25 feet away from where you spoke."

---Myca

The point here is that because you're doing two things (casting a spell, THEN moving), the observers get TWO checks. The first one, for when you cast, is DC 20 (20 base +20 speaking -20 not moving). Then, once you move, they get a second check versus your Stealth (which is 0 unless you want to use it). The DC for this is (20 base + Stealth roll). These checks are just to notice if you've cast, and if you've moved. They need to beat the DC by 20 in order to pinpoint you, and that will only be during each action (pinpointing you when you cast will give the observers a different location than if they pinpointed you after you moved). Also remember to add +1 to the DCs per 10ft you are away from each observer.

Shadow Lodge

Silent Saturn wrote:
The -20 modifier doesn't apply to YOU, it applies to the person trying to FIND you. If someone is currently fighting for their life, they're going to have to pay attention to that, not pinpointing the footfalls of an invisible person that or may not be just leaves in the breeze.

This is incorrect. it's a negative modifier to the DC, and it's based on what you do. Generally, entering combat initiative, is not what this is talking about. It's going to the actual act of fighting with sword, tooth, nail etc.

Silent Saturn's response is better suited to a perception DC modifier of "observer is distracted" +5, which you can find in the perception section. Although, I'd rule that would only be if they didn't already know you were there.


Silent Saturn wrote:
The -20 modifier doesn't apply to YOU, it applies to the person trying to FIND you. If someone is currently fighting for their life, they're going to have to pay attention to that, not pinpointing the footfalls of an invisible person that or may not be just leaves in the breeze.

Would that it were so.

The table here specifies that the modifier applies to the invisible creature itself.

Anyone know if there's been an official ruling on what "in combat" means?

---Myca


Suffice it to say that True Seeing and similar sensory advantages aside, it is pretty difficult to pinpoint a character who is invisible AND on the move (using stealth) while they cast/act.

Its difficult by the application of the rules everyone is talking about above, but its also kind of difficult for many groups to correctly apply those rules in the first place. The fact the the rules involved are all pretty convoluted doesn't usually make the spell/tactic any less useful unless your GM is just being adversarial (and there's no spell to defend against that).

The bottom line is generally going to be that there HAS GOT TO BE an easier/more convenient target on the board, both in terms of what the enemies are actually able to target, and what the GM feels like dealing with.

Sometimes circumstance will dictate that enemies will actually go to the trouble of locating and assaulting the invisible caster. That's why you do actually need to know the rules, after all. The other 90% of the time, its probably not worth bogging down the encounter, so they'll just go after someone else.

IME, anyway...


I have all my caster npcs use it, especially if they're gish casters who are expecte to be in melee range.

I mean it's just too good. Your squishy caster is protected from impending death since he can't be easily be attacked, can't have his spells identified or countered, and his spells don't provoke AoO's unless they see him.

Even if they can find your square(which without magical aid requires them to be burning standards feeling around for you, a really high stealth check, or throwing around flour/paint) you get built in miss chance from the concealment and it automatically shuts down sneak attacks along with other percision damage as long as the attackers can't actually see you.

And if you can get unlimted Vanish's... Well that's just icing on the cake.

Edited for other bits.

Scarab Sages

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Caution: Incoming angry old man "get off my lawn!" rant about to commence.

What the hell ever happened to plain old invisible?? Can't be seen unless you have a specific counter to it (true seeing, see invis, etc).

All this "well, I get +40 to this, but they get -20 to that, and take the coinverse of the sine wave infarction with negative impact at 20 feet, but if they are within 30 squares with this much sound amplification you have +6 to stealth without having the -2 to DEX, carry the one...." is just too stupidly confusing and complicated during what should be an awesome encounter.

You are invisible? Great, they hear you casting and know you are somewhere, but not exactly where and can't do diddly about it anyhow.

Has anyone here ever had a stupid smoke detector beep at you? Especially if you have multiple detectors around? Which one is it...was it over there? No? Maybe its this one, I'll stand under it for a moment or two until it beeps again....drat, I'm pretty sure it was that one over there now....WTF!?

Look, in the middle of combat, or even just general RP (especially with other people talking) its too frakkin hard to figure out just exactly which 5 foot square someone was in when they heard a voice emanate from it...and unless there is some super sonic hearing involved, trying to figure out more than a general direction someone moved, hearing footsteps moving is pretty stupid fake too...especially if the combat is happening on a stone floor.

Hasn't anyone ever heard armor clanking and swords clashing and such? ITS LOUD. And with the grunting and cursing and other such things happening in combat, being able to detect someone who is invisible should be pretty darn impossible.

In MY games, being invisible is just that. Nobody can see you, and other than a general "o, someone is around and making a bit of noise!" thats about all they can percieve. From there, they can cast a spell to try and detect you in some manner, but thats about it. Area affect things will work, but pinpoint precision is right out.

Its simple, effective, and it works. Best yet, nobody has EVER complained about it....even when my bad guys do it.

Now, GTFOff my lawn!!

The Exchange

Invisibility is so good for casters who specialise in summons, that the Summoner class got it on his spell list, even though it has absolutely no relation to any other magical ability of the class. I imagine the developers just realised that every Summoner ever built for the game would work out some other way to become invisible anyway (since it's that much of a standard tactic if you like to summon things) that they just shrugged and gave it to the class anyway... So - how useful? 'Very' seems to be the consensus... ;)


But it's not me trying to pinpoint the invisible wizard, it's my 20 wisdom monk with max ranks in perception!
Why shouldn't she be capable of such a feat?


Jaxtile wrote:

But it's not me trying to pinpoint the invisible wizard, it's my 20 wisdom monk with max ranks in perception!

Why shouldn't she be capable of such a feat?

She should be able to! But that very much so depends on the level of the monk and circumstances.

Should a level 1 monk with 20 WIS be able to find an invisible foe in the middle of a roaring battlefield without aid? No.

Should a level 20 monk with perception in the 30s be able to find an invisible foe in a silent dojo by listening to the subtle creaks of the wood as his assailant walks? Yes.

The rules are in place to determine the middle ground of these situations. Granted, yeah, they're a little complicated. Doesn't mean we still don't need them.

Scarab Sages

I disagree. I just fail to see how a skill should be able to beat something magical, even if its a skill being used by a lvl 20 guy with a 28 wisdom.

Besides, the lvl 20 guy should have SOMETHING to deal with invisible people. Spells, magical items, SOMETHING.

But to say "well, I've got 20 levels of experience and I've put max ranks into a skill, so your magic can just GTFO and I win!" is pretty silly, IMHO.

But, to each his own, and yes, there are rules now presented.

And I realize I'm being curmudgeonly and crotchety and all "get off my lawn!" about it.

This is why we have chocolate and vanilla and rocky road. Eat what you like, play how you like :)

Scarab Sages

To be totally fair though, THIS is one of the most awesome scenes ever in any type of Kung Fu show/movie/whatever.

OF. ALL. TIME.


Bomanz wrote:
...In MY games, being invisible is just that. Nobody can see you, and other than a general "o, someone is around and making a bit of noise!" thats about all they can percieve. From there, they can cast a spell to try and detect you in some manner, but thats about it. Area affect things will...

Yeah, this is pretty much the point I was making in my earlier post. Sounds like Bomanz is one of the GMs I'm talking about, who don't just can't justify going after an invisible enemy with other threats present (rightfully so IMO), and wouldn't feel like dealing with the rules if they could justify it.

Its just not very feasible that in the middle of battle, and when other options are available, enemies don't simply go after another target who is not invisible.

That said, we need the rules to cover how to handle the scenarios where they've got to go after the invisible caster. Like when they're the only enemy present/left. Or when they're such a priority target in the encounter that they must be stopped at all costs. Those kinds of things. I do wish those rules were less obtuse, but c'est la vie...

I'm sorry though, in ordinary battle scenarios, I call cheese when the monster (or monk) bypasses another easier target to go after the invisible wizard on the other side of the room. That's just dumb.


Unless the the easier target is not as much of a threat as the invisible wizard summoning MORE adversaries OR (using Greater Invisibility)spamming you with attack spells.

And invisibility is only a 2nd level spell, its NOT a perfect defense. That's why there is an ever so small chance you can pick up on cues to where invis-o-man is. Greater Invisibility, while a 4th level spell, only allows the user to stay invisible while attacking and does not improve the quality of the defense (same stealth bonus/perception penalty).

Perception is the most used skill for a reason. And really, should a 10 level monk with 18 Wis with a 17 Perception score be totally shut down by a 2nd level spell?

With a good roll and exercising caution a 3rd wizard still has a chance of evading the monk with a mere 2nd level spell.

Silver Crusade

How useful is invisibilty to a caster? Very, in the low and mid levels of a campaign. Once you get past 10th level, its astounding how many monsters have an ability that allows them to ignore, or significantly mitigate, the advantages that invisibility provides. Something the 15th level rogue in my campaign seems unwilling to accept.

My point is, eventually you may want to upgrade to better magical defenses, at least until you can pull off the mind blank trick.


If i understand the rules correctly, even if a perception roll is made, you still can only detect if an invisible creature is nearby. Not their exact square. You can spend a standard action doing a touch attack into two adjacent squares.(groping) other than that, without magic or ingenuity your not going to know where they are at. Unless you find them and they don't know.

Sovereign Court

You could set off a Ghost Sound with the sound of level x 4 wizards mumbling and casting spells.. that would make it pretty hard to isolate you.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
If i understand the rules correctly, even if a perception roll is made, you still can only detect if an invisible creature is nearby. Not their exact square.

No, no. Barring any other modifiers, it's DC:20 to detect that someone is nearby and DC:40 to pinpoint the square. That drops by 20 if the invisible person is speaking or 'in combat.'

Speaking of 'in combat,' more below.

Ascalaphus wrote:
You could set off a Ghost Sound with the sound of level x 4 wizards mumbling and casting spells.. that would make it pretty hard to isolate you.

This idea is so wonderful. We loves it.

-----

So the big question at the moment is what counts as 'in combat.' My GM is arguing that "acting in initiative order and taking actions" is what was intended. I think it's more likely to mean "engaged in hand-to-hand battle." Thoughts and arguments?

---Myca


Myca wrote:

So the big question at the moment is what counts as 'in combat.' My GM is arguing that "acting in initiative order and taking actions" is what was intended. I think it's more likely to mean "engaged in hand-to-hand battle." Thoughts and arguments?

---Myca

It's clearly meant to be in combat as in, 'actively fighting.' You can be in the initiative, taking actions, and not moving or making a sound (standing silently directing summoned minions and/or pets telepathically, for instance). His interpretation just doesn't make sense.

Silver Crusade

I've always considered someone as "in combat" if they are physically involved in offense or defense- making melee attacks, making ranged attacks, casting spells, being attacked, etc.


Quote:

How useful is invisibilty to a caster? Very, in the low and mid levels of a campaign. Once you get past 10th level, its astounding how many monsters have an ability that allows them to ignore, or significantly mitigate, the advantages that invisibility provides. Something the 15th level rogue in my campaign seems unwilling to accept.

My point is, eventually you may want to upgrade to better magical defenses, at least until you can pull off the mind blank trick.

And as soon I was able without blowing every spell slot I had I stacked Nondetection, Displacement and Detect Scrying on top of that and using them with Greater Invisibility (using Wands whenever possible), particularly if I thought a tough fight was ahead.

Quote:

So the big question at the moment is what counts as 'in combat.' My GM is arguing that "acting in initiative order and taking actions" is what was intended. I think it's more likely to mean "engaged in hand-to-hand battle." Thoughts and arguments?

---Myca

The real issue though is how noisy, blinding and distracting the current situation is because as a human (demi-human etc.) your perception is based primarily off sound/hearing and sight (or you'd have blindsense, tremorsense, etc.). In combat, however you define it, is assumed to be very noisy blinding and distracting.


I feel it's somewhat telling as well, that it says 'in combat or speaking' as being the same reduction for locating the creature.

Logically, if an invisible creature is continuously talking, for example, let's say you've got a BBEG who's doing a monologue while invisible, it makes sense to have a fair bonus on figuring out where they are.

On the other hand, if you've got a wizard who's making a couple gestures and muttering some lines for 6 seconds in order to drop creatures onto the battlefield... I don't see that as being quite as likely to blow your cover.

YMMV though, I suppose.

Edit: And for the monologuing, I mean it does make sense, to me at least, to put that on par with 'actively engaging in combat, trying to stabbity stab people' or whatever.


Myca wrote:
Fromper wrote:
And here I thought the main purpose of invisibility was to cast it on the party rogue.
Our rogue is a lovely young woman, but I happen to be a worshiper of Asmodeus, and giving a crap about whether she gets hit in combat is actually against my religion. ;)

Wait, how is it against your religion to aid those who steal and hurt others for the profit of themselves, you and your church?

I would think it's a Devil worshipping Cleric's obligation to assist anything which can lead to backstabbing, theft and treachery. Especially when it means they don't have to dirty their own hands.

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