Myca's page

Grick, I'm copying your examples into a quick-reference sheet and I noticed that the "-20 In Combat" adjustment got applied. I am wondering is your take on that modifier that once combat starts, the invisible creature gets the -20 In Combat applied if they are participating in the combat, regardless of actions?

Thanks again for the write up.

-Yves

Yeah, this question is what's underlying my post here. What constitutes 'in combat' for the purposes of invisibility?

---Myca

If i understand the rules correctly, even if a perception roll is made, you still can only detect if an invisible creature is nearby. Not their exact square.

No, no. Barring any other modifiers, it's DC:20 to detect that someone is nearby and DC:40 to pinpoint the square. That drops by 20 if the invisible person is speaking or 'in combat.'

Speaking of 'in combat,' more below.

You could set off a Ghost Sound with the sound of level x 4 wizards mumbling and casting spells.. that would make it pretty hard to isolate you.

This idea is so wonderful. We loves it.

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So the big question at the moment is what counts as 'in combat.' My GM is arguing that "acting in initiative order and taking actions" is what was intended. I think it's more likely to mean "engaged in hand-to-hand battle." Thoughts and arguments?

---Myca

The logic I've heard for "in combat" meaning "acting within initiative order and taking actions" is:

And my reasoning is, when you choose to work within Initiative, and also perform actions that interact within 30ft range of potential enemies... it makes sense in my mind that you're having to perform those actions as quickly as possible (within 6 seconds) and moving that fast would create enough of a spectacle to be somewhat visible.

---Myca

Personally, I think it makes sense to restrict it to 'the actual act of fighting.'

That's basically my opinion as well, with the added argument that if that's not the case, then suddenly there's no specific modifier for 'being in melee combat while invisible,' which seems like kind of an unlikely major oversight.

Other opinions! I'd like to hear them all!

---Myca

So the question seems to be what "in combat" means.

Does it mean, "entering combat initiative and taking actions," or does it mean, "the actual act of fighting"?

---Myca

The -20 modifier doesn't apply to YOU, it applies to the person trying to FIND you. If someone is currently fighting for their life, they're going to have to pay attention to that, not pinpointing the footfalls of an invisible person that or may not be just leaves in the breeze.

Would that it were so.

The table here specifies that the modifier applies to the invisible creature itself.

Anyone know if there's been an official ruling on what "in combat" means?

---Myca

Okay, question #2

I'd assumed that "in combat" meant, "engaged in hand-to-hand."

My GM is interpreting it as "in combat means if you are an active participant in the fight... ie Initiative roll and have acted."

If that's the case, then anytime there's a fight (which is the vast majority of when I'll be using invisibility), I would have the -20 'in combat' modifier to be detected.

Does that seem ... off to anyone?

---Myca

The rogue's sneak attack damage should be +2d6 at the level that a wizard gets invisibility, and it only goes up from there. Plus, if you cast it before combat starts, you can help the rogue get into position for the SA, and still get your Stone Call or something else off in the first round of combat while the rogue is doing that damage.

Yeah, our rogue multiclassed with Alchemist, so she's only got 2 rogue levels ... still stuck at 1d6.

Invisibility only gives you +20 to your stealth roll if you move. I'd say, if you're moving it'd be DC (Stealth roll) to notice that you moved, and DC (Stealth roll +20) to pinpoint where you went after you moved.

I think it depends on whether the penalty for speaking/casting carries with me once I stop speaking and start stealthing.

It would be a little weird for the logic to be "you spoke this round, so they can pinpoint you in this square 25 feet away from where you spoke."

---Myca

I've always wanted to play an Asmodean Cleric, so just curious, do you happen to keep a contract with each party member, verbal or written, about the edicts and do's and dont's, or are you just playing selfish?

No, no, I'm not that complicated. I'm actually just LN, and not a super-committed Asmodean. My character is loosely based on Johannes Cabal, and is Asmodean as a matter of convenience.

I anticipate that part of my character's ongoing developments will be discovering that he's more cantankerous than actually evil, and splitting with the church. Which I'm sure will go over swimmingly.

---Myca

It's not about protecting the party rogue. It's about helping the rogue sneak up on your enemies to get sneak attacks, so your group can kill them more easily. It's offensive teamwork, rather than using the spell for defense.

Sure. I was joking earlier, but I get that.

I guess I just think that invis is too useful as a sustained spell at my level to spend on a measly +1d6 damage. I mean, stone call does 2d6 to an area, you know?

As I get more Level 2 spells, and as our rogue's sneak attack becomes more useful this will change, but right now, I think it makes more sense tactically for me to be free to buff and summon.

And here I thought the main purpose of invisibility was to cast it on the party rogue.

Our rogue is a lovely young woman, but I happen to be a worshiper of Asmodeus, and giving a crap about whether she gets hit in combat is actually against my religion. ;)

It's +20 to notice an invisible character is present in the general area.
It's +40 to pinpoint their square.

If you're in combat or speaking, it's -20. Absent stealth, it's 20-20 = DC 0 to notice you're there, but 40-20 = DC 20 to pinpoint your exact square.

That's the stuff! Loving this.

Scenario:

I'm invis. I'm in some random square (within 30 feet, because I don't think I've seen a room yet in RotRL that isn't smaller than 30 feet across) and I begin casting.

As soon as I begin casting, all the enemies within 30 feet get a reflexive perception check at DC:0 to notice that I exist, and one at DC:20 to pinpoint me.

I then stealth out of there (thank you +4 Dex bonus). Everyone within 30 feet gets a reflexive perception check at DC:(Stealth check +20) to notice that I exist, and one at DC:(Stealth check +40) to pinpoint me. is that right?

IF any of them pinpointed me from my casting, they'll be going to my old square (which is awesome). The only case where someone would be actually coming after actual me is if they succeeded at the 'Stealth check +40' perception check, right?

---Myca

The trick is to cast, THEN move (pref. using stealth). Makes you much harder to pinpoint.

Ah, of course. Brilliant. Additionally, if they do end up spending all of their time making perception checks and scurrying over to where I used to be, so much the better.

Also, my character is specialized in teleportation, so I've got the blink-from-place-to-place power, which this pretty much seems like it was designed for.

And even if they pinpoint you, there's still 50% miss chance.

As much as I'd rather not rely on that, half of why I was looking at Invisibility was as a way to make summoning less of a 'sitting duck' situation, so it's good that even if they pinpoint me, I've still got a chance.

Also, Silent Spell (ideally on a rod).

Sure, of course. It's just that I'm 4th level, and just finishing up the first adventure in Rise of the Runelords, so the loot has been a bit sparse thus far, and I doubt I'll be able to afford it for a while.

Thanks so much for the help!

---Myca

Oooookay.

So, since my specialist conjurer has just hit 4th level, the topic of invisibility, how useful it is, and how to adjudicate it has come up for our group.

My GM has referred me to two resources.

First, the spell itself: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/invisibility.html
Second, the various modifiers on detection and how to apply them: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility

So from what I read there, the deal is that if I'm stealthy and don't move, I have a +40 to a stealth check to be undetected.

If I 'speak' though, no stealth check, and a -20 to their perception DC ... which is normally 20.

So if I'm invisible, and I cast within 30 feet of an enemy, their DC to pinpoint me is 0, correct?

Is there something I'm missing, or is invisibility fairly useless if you'd like to also cast?

I was originally thinking that since summoning and buffing doesn't drop me out of invis, that might be worthwhile, but now I'm reconsidering.

Thoughts?

---Myca

In looking at the higher level spell Air Walk, I am further convinced that external forces not controlled by the spell should be considered and may even penalize the character when they are extreme.

Since they address environmental conditions specifically in Air Walk, and specifically do not address them here (beyond the use of the terms "firm ground" and "normal ground"), I am further convinced that the RAW are clear.

---Myca

Why not spray water over any difficult terrain then?

Actually, I'd think that would probably work ... especially considering that other 3rd level options for bypassing difficult terrain include Fly, Gaseous form, Burrowing, and Sky Swim ...

Water Walk has benefits that they do not, but it also has some drawbacks according to RAW that they do not.

---Myca

The spell does not mention conveying added stability, only that previously untraversable surfaces may now be used as if they were firm ground.

Au contraire! Running water to firm ground is clearly added stability.

---Myca

I understand your point but i believe the intent is to say that the liquid work as a solid (so you would not penetrate the surface).

Since the spell specifies that you can cross running water as though it were firm ground, it's clear that the liquid isn't treated exactly as though it were a solid. After all, I would assume that walking on ground rushing by with the speed of a river would require some sort of check, and would not be considered 'firm.'

Also, from the spell:

The transmuted creatures can tread on any liquid as if it were firm ground. Mud, oil, snow, quicksand, running water, ice, and even lava can be traversed easily, since the subjects' feet hover an inch or two above the surface. Creatures crossing molten lava still take damage from the heat because they are near it. The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground.

According to RAW, it seems like, since a choppy sea falls under the 'any liquid' umbrella, it gets treated like firm ground.

Of course ... I'm one of Baron Yves' players, so my take on this may be a little biased. ;)

---Myca