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Why I dump stats


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

251 to 277 of 277 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The opposite of dumping stats is making a PC with the most average stats array possible within the rules.

20-point buy will give you : 5 abilities at 13 (+1 mod) and 1 at 14 (+2 mod). A racial adjustment of +2 will the give you 4 abilities at 13 (+1 mod), 1 at 14 and 1 at 15 (+2 mod).

Which character of any class can you make with this array that both :

- would be interesting to play (as in adds value to the party in most encounters)

- would not be significantly better at his role if he lowered some stats and raised others ?

I am really interested if someone can propose some good build here, because I do not think it feasible.

I am all for allowing a player to dump his PC stats as much as he wants, as long as he accepts the RAW consequences of doing so. And I see no point (except a frustrated or power-hungry GM's ego) in adding houserule penalties for low stats, even moreso if it is specific to some stats (say CHA) rather than a general rule and doubly worse if the GM does not warn the player before character creation.

Against all the current talk of "player's entitlement", I believe that being the GM is no excuse for being a jerk and spoiling your players' fun.


That's because odd stats aren't too useful. (Which is an entirely different problem.) Now, 5 stats at 12, and 1 at 16 before racial modifiers is perfectly playable.

If you really wanted to go 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13 after racial adjustment for some reason, I'd go bard. Put the 15 in cha, the 14 in int, or possibly dex. Pick up the helpful trait, and be a buffing/support bard. Not having 5 odd stats would help, but not as much as you think.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Cards, Companion Subscriber

I am currently playing a half-orc two-weapon fighter in a campaign and accidentally made his point-buy a lot lower than it should have been (my old character died and she was made at level 11 as a replacement). Back-calculating, the lst level stats (before racial adjustments) was:

Str 15, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 7

This works out to a point buy of 4! Admittedly, I started assuming that I was going to need a high strength, dexterity, and a positive constitution mod, then dumped the rest to see what I had to play with, but somehow thought I was out of points after that, being distracted by other elements of character creation.

This has been a very interesting character to play and having no respectable mental capability, combined with a bite attack and relishing eating corpses (particularly elves) has made her a very distinctive character. Everyone has a clear view on what her capabilities are and it gets a laugh when my bad dice rolls reinforce the concept (She was charmed and for days later failed her saves, yet managed to pass all the saves the party threw at her to counter-charm - she was a bitey head poking out of a bag of holding for a while!)

Other such laughs were when she was feebleminded and no-one noticed for weeks.

To reinforce that stat dumps are not cheesy is to see how the low stat affects them. The classic of a dumped charisma is not limited to being ugly or a jerk. There is also the lack of leadership ability, lacking a respectable presence (so the character tends to get overlooked and ignored), shyness, social phobia, an inability to fit in, or undesirable mannerisms. Each stat has a broad range of concepts that fit into it - a character can be defined off of just six.

On the flipside, a high stat can be played more averagely by a character who doesn't force his full potential through his actions constantly. A very intelligent player can be subtle to be more socially normal to fit in, or just lazy.


Awesome build horselord. Dumping stats without power building.


Dilvias wrote:

That's because odd stats aren't too useful. (Which is an entirely different problem.) Now, 5 stats at 12, and 1 at 16 before racial modifiers is perfectly playable.

If you really wanted to go 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13 after racial adjustment for some reason, I'd go bard. Put the 15 in cha, the 14 in int, or possibly dex. Pick up the helpful trait, and be a buffing/support bard. Not having 5 odd stats would help, but not as much as you think.

Stats at odd numbers are not 'useless', there are plenty of feats with odd stat requirements like combat expertise, power attack and the two weapon fighting line. odd stats can save points at 1st level to make a character more rounded ,say going with a 19 at 1st instead of a 20 makes your character less of a 'one trick pony, then at 4th increase it to a 20 and boom, theres your even number for a bonus. Some of this is the instant gratification mind set vs. the long term planning mindset.


DarkLightHitomi wrote:

Perhaps but in DnD terms I am getting penalties to social skills to affect others, but a bonus to not be affected by others, AKA, you need a very high diplomacy score to convince me of something, but yet I couldn't sell free water to a thirsty man in a desert.

This shows DnD terms aren't very accurate, thus you have plenty of wiggle room to explain what and why.

More sense motive than cha or diplomacy then.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Conundrum wrote:
Dilvias wrote:

That's because odd stats aren't too useful. (Which is an entirely different problem.) Now, 5 stats at 12, and 1 at 16 before racial modifiers is perfectly playable.

If you really wanted to go 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13 after racial adjustment for some reason, I'd go bard. Put the 15 in cha, the 14 in int, or possibly dex. Pick up the helpful trait, and be a buffing/support bard. Not having 5 odd stats would help, but not as much as you think.

Stats at odd numbers are not 'useless', there are plenty of feats with odd stat requirements like combat expertise, power attack and the two weapon fighting line. odd stats can save points at 1st level to make a character more rounded ,say going with a 19 at 1st instead of a 20 makes your character less of a 'one trick pony, then at 4th increase it to a 20 and boom, theres your even number for a bonus. Some of this is the instant gratification mind set vs. the long term planning mindset.

Odd stats are a relic. Hopefully future DnDesque RPGs will get over this, and every stat point will be fully meaningful.


ciretose wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
ciretose wrote:
It isn't vindictive to have something do what it says it does.

Well, maybe that's not what he's calling "vindictive".

I kid you not, I've had a GM say that if you had 6-7 CHA, he would have commoners mistake you for a troll and attack you on sight.

And that GM is an idiot and that isn't a strawman I would defend or fight.

I think the easiest parallel for all of the stats is Int to IQ and the bell curve both follow.

70 IQ is to 7 Int. Noticably slower than average, but not mentally retarded.

A 6 Charisma is pretty bad, but in your average high school there are probably 100 kids with that level charisma.

I would allow a 6 Charisma PC in my game, if they understood they were playing a character with a 6 Charisma until they did something about it.

The more i look at the 'bell curve' more and more, the less i think it makes any sense here.

So above some have shown that a 4-5 would be more likely a 70 IQ equivalent.

If that is the case, then to me it just makes absolutely no sense;
a '0' in a stat represents complete ability failure. So in Int, your brain is disfunctional that it cannot take care of itself or your body and you die. If a 10 is a 'normal' person, then i really cant see how a 5-6 is equal to a 70 IQ, which is the top level for being considered mentally retarded, but that level can still function in society fairly well.

So i fail to see how it makes any sense that 5-6 int functions fairly well to all of a sudden total brain death with just a few points drop.

If 10 is normal, then shouldnt that make a 70 IQ closer to 8-9 int stat?

There is people that have some serious mental malfunctions, they can't talk very well, they have a very hard time grasping new concepts or just understanding what someone might try to tell them in simple form. This to me much more so represents a 4-5 Int.


Idk, but just read wiki's on both IQ and mental retardation. 95% of people score between 70 and 130, anything below 70 is mentally retard, however, scores of 50-69 correlate to being able to function as a typical 9-12 year old child, learn to read and perform math and live independantly. So while a 70 is slower than average it is not retarded and even at 50 the person could learn enough to live on their own. I think the model of 1 int = 10 IQ is still sound and it is the model originally put forth by the predecessor of the game we are playing now.


the 35-49 range was pretty bad but still could learn a simple job, anything below 35 was "profoundly" retarded.

Osirion

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Cards, Companion Subscriber

Going on the way an IQ test measures IQ, it is based on the distribution across the population. So 100 is average and the standard deviation is 15 points (according to WISC and WISE). Then if we use the probabilities of rolling 3d6 we get an IQ equivalents as listed.

The IQ's metric is measure that asks, "what fraction of the population has a lower IQ than me?" Then finds that probability on a normal curve and comes out with a number.

The only way I could get the columns to look neat:
Int_____IQ____Probability
_3____<60______0/216
_4_____61______1/216
_5_____69______4/216
_6_____75_____10/216
_7_____80_____20/216
_8_____85_____35/216
_9_____90_____56/216
10_____95_____81/216
11____100____108/216
12____105____135/216
13____110____160/216
14____115____181/216
15____120____196/216
16____125____206/216
17____131____212/216
18____139+___215/216


Horselord wrote:

Going on the way an IQ test measures IQ, it is based on the distribution across the population. So 100 is average and the standard deviation is 15 points (according to WISC and WISE). Then if we use the probabilities of rolling 3d6 we get an IQ equivalents as listed.

The IQ's metric is measure that asks, "what fraction of the population has a lower IQ than me?" Then finds that probability on a normal curve and comes out with a number.

** spoiler omitted **

This looks far more viable and congruent with established game mechanics and prior uses of stats to convey relevant intellect than the last INT-to-IQ table I saw on the boards.


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I dump stats in order to get bigger numbers on the stats I want.


I dump stats for the thrill.


The standard distribution of a 3d6 bell curve works okay for the central numbers within 2 standard deviations of the mean but doesn't work particularly good for the outliers as clearly there needs to be some gradiation between animal intelligence and human intelligence but 3 doesn't handle that very well.

Considering most PCs will be built with equivalent of 15+ point buy this just shows how much better the average PC is in comparison to a regular mortal using the equivalent of 3d6 for stats.


I'm currently playing a kickboxer/fighter who has an 8 for con and charisma. The weaknesses of the character really show, he can duck and weave prety well, attack and damage are impressive (IMO) but can't take much damage. Previous to this character, I played a paladin with one stat below 10 and that pally could not do s@!&. It was the most useless character I had ever seen and played. For stat dumping, it becomes the issue of being extra vulnerable to some things but make sure the caracter has a strength or two. As stated previously in the thread:"no one enjoys being Mr Useless." The game is all in all, not about creating the untouchable character but one with schticks.


This is why i prefer to roll stats instead of points buy
I think with all the choices players can make with character creation they have so much control over how the character will turn out that rolled stats represent the organic part of creation what the gods gave you and you have to work with


I put less points in attributes that my class doesn't need and more points in the attributes that it does need. If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
tony gent wrote:
I think with all the choices players can make with character creation they have so much control over how the character will turn out that rolled stats represent the organic part of creation what the gods gave you and you have to work with

This is why I prefer point buy to rolled stats. I'm already working with what the gods gave me in real life, I'd rather not have to deal with it in my leisure activities.


Fair enough toz

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

*fistbump*


TriOmegaZero wrote:
tony gent wrote:
I think with all the choices players can make with character creation they have so much control over how the character will turn out that rolled stats represent the organic part of creation what the gods gave you and you have to work with
This is why I prefer point buy to rolled stats. I'm already working with what the gods gave me in real life, I'd rather not have to deal with it in my leisure activities.

Yeah, none of my characters to date have ankle issues...

Although quite a few have made the same mistake as me in selecting music as their "career of choice".


*strange masonic style hand shake that ends with several dislocated fingers*


Vestrial wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
to encourage people to give their character a flaw, you need a proper incentive. hence the extra points. i prefer characters with one or two major flaws over the character who seems to have none. and those extra points from dump stats, aren't being deducted from primary scores, they are being deducted from secondary and tertiary scores. but i too would default to a flawless character if the system either didn't provide an incentive for said flaws, or the penalties for said flaws drastically outweighed the compensatory benefits that served as the incentive.

Because you are letting your character concept serve the mechanics, rather than the other way around. "Hey look, I get a mechanical bonus for being an antisocial moron, I guess I'll incorporate that into my concept!" Funny how many people's concept end up being so similar, eh? If it was really a part of the character concept you wouldn't care about a mechanical reward for a weakness. Which is a total contradiction anyway. "I'm flawed, I'm less charming than others. But I'm stronger/dexier/tougher than them!"

Yeah, I like flawed characters too. When they are actually flawed. But people rarely play low int/wis/char appropriately. They just sorta default to their own. And the game has no real built-in incentive to not dump scores, and no built in punishment for doing so. You can dump charisma to 7, then buy a cheap hat of diplomacy and be more diplomatic than the guy with an 18 charisma.

Make it about fiver per. A seven is an 85, a 14 is 120, an 18 is 140, if someone reaches 30, they are top of the scale. A three is about 65?


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I dump stats because it gives me a mechanical advantage.

It doesn't hurt or enhance my role-playing abilities in any way.

And a GM forcing my low Int character to be completely stupid is just as annoying and unfair as a GM who makes my low Con character have the Sickened/Diseased condition all the time or makes my low Dex character trip and fall prone every few minutes.

The rules already punish (or reward) me for my choice of attribute allocation in a clear and concise manner. There is no need for the GM to go out of his way to drag me down me even more.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Modules Subscriber
rangerjeff wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Dilvias wrote:

That's because odd stats aren't too useful. (Which is an entirely different problem.) Now, 5 stats at 12, and 1 at 16 before racial modifiers is perfectly playable.

If you really wanted to go 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13 after racial adjustment for some reason, I'd go bard. Put the 15 in cha, the 14 in int, or possibly dex. Pick up the helpful trait, and be a buffing/support bard. Not having 5 odd stats would help, but not as much as you think.

Stats at odd numbers are not 'useless', there are plenty of feats with odd stat requirements like combat expertise, power attack and the two weapon fighting line. odd stats can save points at 1st level to make a character more rounded ,say going with a 19 at 1st instead of a 20 makes your character less of a 'one trick pony, then at 4th increase it to a 20 and boom, theres your even number for a bonus. Some of this is the instant gratification mind set vs. the long term planning mindset.
Odd stats are a relic. Hopefully future DnDesque RPGs will get over this, and every stat point will be fully meaningful.

House rules that you get a .5 bonus with odd stats and that ties are fails (or require a reroll—must accept the second roll). So a roll of 15.5 beats AC 15, but a roll of 15.0 does not.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Vestrial wrote:


What I mostly don't like about dump stats is that the game encourages it due to low point buy, stats that are irrelevant, and a fairly large bonus for dumping.

In my game, you get more points to start, but don't get any bonus for stats bellow 10. You're welcome to drop stats for RP purposes, though. (That separates the RPs from the powergamers with a convenient excuse real quick.)

bad idea. remove the reward for dumping stats, and nobody will do it, in favor of flawless mary sues with no depth.

dump stats, while used by specialists, are hardly a bad thing. the flaws shape a character more than their advantages.

most of the stat dumping classes (anything martial) requires the extra points to keep up with the damned schrodinger's 20 int wizard and his absurd single attribute dependency.

i disagree with this line of thinking, specifically the "no depth" part.

failing a save, having less hp, or doing less damage doesnt provide depth, just punishment for low stats.

depth is found within roleplaying, you can have a 13 INT, that helps with some skill points and such, but, its up to me to play my character intelligently.

roleplay is what provides depth, good stats do not diminish this in any way

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