| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How do I do it? I really have no idea where to start. This is more for a typical NPC enemy, not a specific characer, so only levels 1-4 are of major concern. If you have ideas for higher levels, please share, though.
The classic mongolian horse archer was lightly armored, fast as hell, and would run circles around heavily armored knights, peppering them and their horses with arrows.
What class is best? Mounted rager seems good thematically, but has obvious issues in the archery department. Ranger is probably the best choice (companion when it matters, bonus feats) but what else would be good?
Feats? Ride-by-attack would be ideal except you have to charge, so it needs to be a melee attack. Which leaves us with shot on the run, a prerequisite heavy feat which isn't even that useful. Anything I'm missing, and what else is essential? Oddly enough, precise shot is not a big necessity because there will probably be no allies in melee, only enemies. They would retreat and shoot rather than go into melee.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
sohei monk for the win
sohei lets you take what ever mounted feats you want without prerequisites. then take point blank rapid many shot, at 6th you get flurry... well until they decide how the hell flurry works, so you could easily tear up a character from horse back.
|
You could probably do a competent Horse Archer with just a Fighter build, if as you say you're looking for a "typical NPC enemy". Is this going to be a gang of Mooks? If so, don't over-think it.
My one piece of major advice has more to do with how you run the encounter than how you build the NPCs: You're going to need a LOT of space. A proper horse archer will never end his move within 60' of an unmounted enemy, and likely won't ever get closer than 80-100'. He'll gauge his attacks to the speed of his enemies, shoot, and withdraw out of range.
If you do want to get into the nitty gritty details of mounted combat, you can check out this book.
Horse Lord will give you a good basis, as after two levels you can pick up Trick Riding extremely early. From there, fighter if you like.
(Im using just warrior on my NPC version, to keep the CR down.)
Feats: Trick riding: Turns the ride checks to guide with the knees into an auto-pass. Also gives an extra use of Mounted Combat.
Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery: This should be obvious
The Archery Line,: Point blank shot, far shot, Rapid shot, multishot
in about that order of importance
Deadly Aim: if you have room
Skip Shot on the Run: Youre on a horse, this feat does nothing for you.
Use as many of these as you like, as only the best would have room for all the useful feats.
I've seen the book, and I may download it. To be honest, this is more theoretical than anything else. And if I did end up running an encounter like this, it would be in a big open plain. The horse archers would have every advantage their real life analogues would have had.
How did I forget about horse lord? I'm not really an expert on rangers, I suppose. I suppose that's probably the best choice, although it's barely any different from a normal ranger that takes mounted combat style and a horse as a companion. I'll stick with that instead of switching to fighter because of the mount.
Feats: Trick riding: Turns the ride checks to guide with the knees into an auto-pass.There is no auto-fail when rolling a 1 on a skill check. 4 Ranks of the Ride Skill (or just a +4 ride bonus in general) also makes that check auto-pass.
It also affects a lot of other ride checks- like to attack while mounted. Basically any annoying ride check you'd ever have to make, you don't.
First thing would be to get the Mounted Combat feat. This way they can more easily protect their mounts from both ranged and melee attacks. Mounted Combat gives you access to several more nifty mounted feats. Definitely get Mounted Archery to counteract the annoying nerf that archers get while mounted. You could also go for Trample so they can overrun anyone who gets too close. If you're going into higher levels, go for Trick Riding and Mounted Skirmisher for better protection and the ability to make full attacks while moving.
A cavalier build might work. If you used the Emissary archetype, you'd get Mounted Combat as a bonus feat at level 1, plus Mobility for both rider and mount at level 5. But the Luring Cavalier might be even better. You can challenge one person within sight and get extra damage on that person. At third level, you get extra range. Combine that with Shot on the Run, Far Shot and the Run feat, and the PCs will never catch those bastards!
You could also go for Rapid Shot and Manyshot for lots of extra attacks.
Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, and Far Shot would be the appropriate feats. A second-level fighter could take them all, or a third-level ranger or barbarian.
Also make sure to have plenty of backup arrows. At long range you can miss a lot.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As mentioned, Luring Cavaliers are made for this (as the 15th level Cavalier Khan of the Mongol-equivalents in Golarion demonstrates).
Personally, that's definitely what I'd go with.
In fact...
Mongol Raider CR 2
Human Cavalier (Emissary, Luring Cavalier, Order of the Dragon) 3
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +3; Senses Perception +7
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+6 Armor, +3 Dex)
HP 27 (3d10+6)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee scimitar +5 (1d6+2/18-20)
Ranged longbow +7 (1d8+2/×3) or Rapid Shot +5/+5 (1d8+2/×3)
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
BAB +3; CMB +5; CMD 18
Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat,
Skills: Climb +2, Craft (Bowyer) +5, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +3, Perception +7, Ride +9, Sense Motive +5, Survival +5, Swim +2,
Languages Common, 'Mongol',
Special Far Challenge 1/day (+1 to hit, +3 damage), Careful Aim, Aid Allies (+3),
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (2),
Gear Masterwork Steel Lamellar Armor, Scimitar, Dagger, Masterwork Composite Longbow (+2 Str Mod) with 60 arrows,
N Large Animal (Horse)
Init +2; Senses Perception +5, low light vision, scent
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex, +6 Natural, -1 Size)
HP 22 (3d8+6)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2
Special Evasion
OFFENSE
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Bite +4 (1d4+3), 2 hooves -1 (1d6+1)
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
BAB +2; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Endurance, Run, Light Armor Proficiency,
Skills: Perception +5, Survival +5, Swim +6
Gear Masterwork Leather Lamellar, Saddle and Tack,
Note: Gear all based on this page.
Best way to do it in my opinion is a human ranger that switch hits. Not only will your mount scale, but you'll also get bonus feats to support your character concept. Mongolians were known for knowing the lay of the land, mobility, and gathering information on their opponents in order to crush them. A human ranger would have good mobility, tracking abilities, good melee capabilities, and could shoot on horse back.
sohei monk for the win
sohei lets you take what ever mounted feats you want without prerequisites. then take point blank rapid many shot, at 6th you get flurry... well until they decide how the hell flurry works, so you could easily tear up a character from horse back.
What makes you think they can skip the prerequisites? The book says "A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats." It doesn't say that you get to skip the prerequisites.
Design Manager
|
What makes you think they can skip the prerequisites? The book says "A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats." It doesn't say that you get to skip the prerequisites.sohei monk for the win
sohei lets you take what ever mounted feats you want without prerequisites. then take point blank rapid many shot, at 6th you get flurry... well until they decide how the hell flurry works, so you could easily tear up a character from horse back.
From the monk:
From the Sohei:
The Sohei adds the mounted combat feats to his normal Bonus Feat class feature from monk, and monks do not need to meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats.
What makes you think they can skip the prerequisites? The book says "A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats." It doesn't say that you get to skip the prerequisites.sohei monk for the win
sohei lets you take what ever mounted feats you want without prerequisites. then take point blank rapid many shot, at 6th you get flurry... well until they decide how the hell flurry works, so you could easily tear up a character from horse back.
From the monk:
** spoiler omitted **From the Sohei:
** spoiler omitted **The Sohei adds the mounted combat feats to his normal Bonus Feat class feature from monk, and monks do not need to meet the prerequisites for their bonus feats.
Ah, thanks! That is very cool. Maybe a bit overpowered to give them access to Trick Riding and Mounted Skirmisher at essentially 1st level, though.
|
The Samurai gets an ability that reduces the penalty for using a bow while their mount double moves. Plus, getting a mount with no hassle AND his Samurai levels counts as fighter for Weapon Spec and other fighter-only feats is pretty nice.
Monk and Samurai would definitely not work- these are hordes of vicious warriors. They are not the spirit of discipline. Mechanically they could do it, but not at all from a thematic stand point. It seems like horse lord and luring cavalier are the best choices. I'm stuck in the mindsight of cavalier as european knight, though. Explain to me how you could call these characters cavaliers. I am open but unsure.
EDIT: I forgot to say I like your build, DMW.
Don't get caught up on the names. The names and descriptions of the classes are often about flavor more than actual mechanics. If they have the abilities you need them to have, then you've accomplished your goal. As DM, you can change the flavor however you want. It's your world!
For the OP, mix and match the basic ideas of several different classes that have been put forward already.
The mongols bow though is a composite short bow (not a long bow). Most armors would be a variant blending leather and quilted cloth. Mongols were known to wear layers of silk shirts under their armor which stopped arrows. Only a few would wear heavier armors, most likely medium.
|
|
Monk and Samurai would definitely not work- these are hordes of vicious warriors. They are not the spirit of discipline. Mechanically they could do it, but not at all from a thematic stand point. It seems like horse lord and luring cavalier are the best choices. I'm stuck in the mindsight of cavalier as european knight, though. Explain to me how you could call these characters cavaliers. I am open but unsure.
EDIT: I forgot to say I like your build, DMW.
A Cavalier is a warrior who's bound to his mount and whose devotion to a specific cause is all-encompassing. A Luring Cavalier is one who focuses on archery (and specifically, luring foes into following him, a tactic mongols were famous for) instead of melee, and an emissary one who forsakes heavy armor for mobility. With Order of the Dragon, their target of devotion is a group...such as a clan or tribe.
All sounds immensely appropriate to me.
And thanks. :)
|
|
For the OP, mix and match the basic ideas of several different classes that have been put forward already.
The mongols bow though is a composite short bow (not a long bow). Most armors would be a variant blending leather and quilted cloth. Mongols were known to wear layers of silk shirts under their armor which stopped arrows. Only a few would wear heavier armors, most likely medium.
Actually, according to the wikipedia, which I have no reason to disbelieve, lamellar was their standard armor of choice. They wore silk under the armor, but it was still very definately there.
And bow-wise...mongol bows are widely considered to be roughly on par with English longbows as the best bows in the ancient world...which leads me to think that the two being on par stat-wise is the correct route to go with.
|
|
And bow-wise...mongol bows are widely considered to be roughly on par with English longbows as the best bows in the ancient world...which leads me to think that the two being on par stat-wise is the correct route to go with.
Not to get all nerdragey, the standard RPG Longbow has very little in common with an actual English Longbow. I think its a mistake to try to worry about historicity in that case and just sort of chose whichever bow you find mechanically works best.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the note of mongols... several historical accounts describe lamellar as armor they wore.... and remains from battles in russia also show they wore brigandine...
The mongol armies were so effective because of their extreme discipline and organization... the majority of the history about them was written by their enemies and that ends up being more public knowledge than the histories they wrote about themselves. Which the world pretty much didnt have access to till the 1990's.
Without question the luring cavalier is the best example of class designed to be a mongol.
The bow is considered to be the most efficient bow ever made. It's transfer of force far exceeds any other bow until the modern compound bows.
-ref. Rabissi, Gorelik, Weatherford all modern historians well respected in there fields
I'd go with Deadmanwalking's build but Mongol archers have got to be CE at best NE.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd go with Deadmanwalking's build but Mongol archers have got to be CE at best NE.
Why? They're perfectly nice to each other and those they respect, they just see nothing wrong with hurting or killing strangers they do not.
That's pretty typical CN barbarian tribe behavior. The Mongols were just so crazy-badass that they got the chance to do that second part to more people.
The Mongol Empire was extremely safe, well run, and even instituted a comprehensive set of laws and complete freedom of religion. It was only during conquest (or when they were defied) that they, say, made piles of the skulls of everyone in a village.
All that screams Neutral alignment. Very few real-world cultures are actually Evil when examined as a whole (though, similarly, few are truly Good). There are some, but for all their savagery, Mongols probably aren't among them. Certainly not on an individual basis, anyway.
They also had no qualms with outright attacking people with no warning, killing animals and livestock, murdering innocents for fun, and raping everything in sight. They built thier Empire on fear and also had no problem with lies and deceit to get what they wanted, promising safety to get someone to open thier doors and piling into them anyway. They also invented that idea of putting dead bodies into towns under seige to invite death and diease.
Yeah, they were pretty horrific (and so creative) but that's pretty standard stuff for the period. I can't really see anything that makes them any more evil than everyone else around them.
If you're looking at pre-Genghis Mongols, CN probably.
Because under Genghis and his immediate successors, they were tremendously well organized and enforced the laws in their empires quite enthusiastically, I'd call them LN to LE.
For the build, I like Ranger over fighter & cavaliers, for the skills. The early mongol warrior was pretty much able to live off the some of the harshest land available. They did a lot of scouting, travelling thousands of miles and picking their battlefields on the enemy's home turf.
Later, when they had a full-time army, fighters might be appropriate with slaves to take care of food and scouting and so forth. This assumes that you're not just after mooks on horses.
Which it sort of looks like you are, so there's that.
No, I always likes my NPCs to be more than just mooks. They need to operate behind the scenes, too, and skill ranks is an important part of that. I'm imaging a mixture of cavaliers and rangers, with a few fighters and the very occasional barbarian thrown in.
|
|
Skills were part of the reason I went Order of the Dragon on my Cavalier build. It grants Perception and Survival as Class Skills, after all.
And yeah, Cavaliers, Rangers, Fighters, and maybe a Barabarian or two (the Mongols did have lancers as well as archers, which Barbarians can do well at) sounds right for a Mongol hoard.
Why would you say that? they are just like any other army that conquered any other location....
Ask the Khwarezmian Empire why....
Mongol_invasion_of_Khwarezmia on Wikipedia
Basically, he advocates a Mongolian style mounted archer as the dominant archery ranger. Its pretty much exactly what you want.
perhapse you have issues with monks or something... but a sohei is your best choice for a mounted ranged character. anything a ranger can do, a sohei can do better.
Except for have their mount survive a fireball. :P
Paying for new war trained heavy horses after every fight must get dull after a while. Poor 19 hp sods.
i like samurai, in fact i thought 'i want to make a mongol horse warrior with this' when i read the class.
Chaos-wise, Samurais include Ronin who are pretty damn Chaotic,
and Genghi Khan uniting warring tribes to take down multiple empires and unite them under his power seems pretty damn Lawful to me... So don't sweat the cultural flavoring, any more than the generic pseudo-European flavoring of the Core Classes... y'know ;-)
i guess there's also another range-focused cavalier archetype too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
perhapse you have issues with monks or something... but a sohei is your best choice for a mounted ranged character. anything a ranger can do, a sohei can do better.
Except for have their mount survive a fireball. :P
Paying for new war trained heavy horses after every fight must get dull after a while. Poor 19 hp sods.
Lolwut? You can grant your mount evasion and a HP increase with the use of a single Ki Point.
|
|
Lolwut? You can grant your mount evasion and a HP increase with the use of a single Ki Point.perhapse you have issues with monks or something... but a sohei is your best choice for a mounted ranged character. anything a ranger can do, a sohei can do better.
Except for have their mount survive a fireball. :P
Paying for new war trained heavy horses after every fight must get dull after a while. Poor 19 hp sods.
but thats just the tip of the ice berg...
spend 2 ki points and you heal yourself and your mount. 2x monk level then 1 more to gain 2x monk level in temporary hp. i mean burning through your ki points isnt a great idea, but for an npc, its very powerful. then if you know monks well you can get quiggong and toss on true strike.
|
|
I think that sohei could be pretty nasty. For example:
Level 1: PBS, Far Shot (human bonus feat), Mounted Archery (monk bonus fear).
Level 2: Mounted Skirmisher (monk bonus feat)
Level 3: Rapid Shot
Level 5: Mounted Combat
Level 6: Trick Riding (monk bonus feat), Weapon Training (bows); now you can use Flurry with bows.
---
You can switch around Far Shot and Rapid shot, if rate of fire is more important than keeping distance. But until you get Skirmisher you won't be moving AND taking full attacks.
You can also push Mounted Combat forwards by delaying archery feats if your enemy is able to attack back at you effectively at range.
---
As for flavor: Mongols believed that Tengri, the god of the infinite sky, had decreed that they should unify and rule the world, providing order. That's Lawful enough for me. Their fighting style struck other people as exotic too, so monk possible.
As for the atrocities: these didn't come completely out of the blue. Often the Mongols offered an enemy a chance to surrender, but if the offer was declined, then the enemy was ruthlessly slaughtered. This encouraged the next enemy to surrender immediately rather than face the same fate. In the Mongol view this saved on casualties in the long run. Definitely not a Good thing, but it could be LN.
Why not a cavalier?
A couple things to note about the Mongol tumen at least in its most famous era (Genghis et al):
-They fielded a much greater proportion of heavy cavalry than most European armies of "heavily armored knights."
-They were far better organized than most cavalry armies - probably you would have to go as far back as the Maurician kataphraktoi to find a cavalry-based military with such organization and skill at formation maneuver.
-The horse archer is only half the punch of a tumen. The other half comes from the heavy cavalry (working in combined arms cooperation with the horse archers - so horse archery and skirmishing disorganizes the foe prior to and during a decisive heavy cavalry charge).
As such, there are actually two builds to represent a classic mounted Mongol warrior. One is a horse archer with horse archery feats (Mounted Archery, Rapid Shot, etc), the other is a scary-damage heavy charger build with heavy armor and Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Trample, etc.
Is someone seriously saying that rapid shot / manyshot stacks with the sohei's flurry?
|
|
Is someone seriously saying that rapid shot / manyshot stacks with the sohei's flurry?
I can't find a reason why it won't.
Normal monk Flurry works with 2H weapons such as the quarterstaff. It says "a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action." In many ways this like fighting with two weapons (hands, sai, etc.), but there's a difference: the "off-hand" attack also gets full STR bonus to damage. It's apparently a full-fledged attack.
Sohei can use Flurry with any weapon they have Weapon Training with (which they gain at level 6). Bows are listed as a group of weapons they can use. Bows are obviously not 2-weapon fighting.
Rapid Shot and Manyshot say "when making a full attack with a bow", and when you flurry with a bow, that's exactly what you're doing.
So it's slightly ridiculous, especially because the Zen Archer specifically can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot with Flurry, but the rules seem to be fine with it.
Whether it's a good idea is a different question, because getting an additional shot for a -2 on your many shots might not be worth it. But it's probably a good trade, given that you use full BAB on flurries.
Cheesetastic! Are there other rules this build is going to flagrantly ignore the intent of, or is this a special case?
|
|
Any class that has bonus feats where you can ignore the prerequisites will probably end up causing cheese like this.
It definitely doesn't like the spirit of the rules, but it doesn't require any suspicious reading of the letter of the rules. In the case of the monk you could argue that it's not so harmful because the monk was at a disadvantage to start with.
As to the matter of More Cheese.. you can check if you can use Style feats while mounted; that'd be pretty naughty.
Basically, he advocates a Mongolian style mounted archer as the dominant archery ranger. Its pretty much exactly what you want.
That is very cool, but it actually isn't much like a Mongolian horse archer. He advocates going for the Snap Shot tree and getting right into the thick of combat at higher levels. It's still a sweet build, but it isn't a Mongol archer.
|
Design Manager
|
I think that sohei could be pretty nasty. For example:
Level 1: PBS, Far Shot (human bonus feat), Mounted Archery (monk bonus fear).
Level 2: Mounted Skirmisher (monk bonus feat)
Level 3: Rapid Shot
Level 5: Mounted Combat
Level 6: Trick Riding (monk bonus feat), Weapon Training (bows); now you can use Flurry with bows.
---
You can switch around Far Shot and Rapid shot, if rate of fire is more important than keeping distance. But until you get Skirmisher you won't be moving AND taking full attacks.
You can also push Mounted Combat forwards by delaying archery feats if your enemy is able to attack back at you effectively at range.
---
As for flavor: Mongols believed that Tengri, the god of the infinite sky, had decreed that they should unify and rule the world, providing order. That's Lawful enough for me. Their fighting style struck other people as exotic too, so monk possible.
As for the atrocities: these didn't come completely out of the blue. Often the Mongols offered an enemy a chance to surrender, but if the offer was declined, then the enemy was ruthlessly slaughtered. This encouraged the next enemy to surrender immediately rather than face the same fate. In the Mongol view this saved on casualties in the long run. Definitely not a Good thing, but it could be LN.
Just so we're clear here, you only need Mounted Skirmisher to make full attacks with a melee weapon while mounted. Anyone with a bow can make a full attack while mounted without any special feat.
And Rapid Shot and Manyshot absolutely work with a Sohei's Flurry, otherwise the Zen Archer wouldn't need to specifically call them out as not working for that archetype. Considering the Sohei never gets to use his UAS damage in place of his arrow's normal damage, or function as a complete class with only one necessary stat like the Zen Archer, I think it's fine. The Sohei ends up with two more standard bow attacks, but has to divide his stats up between at least 2 main stats and 2 secondary stats, the Zen Archer fires 2d10 arrows and can be built almost entirely around Wisdom.
|
|
Just so we're clear here, you only need Mounted Skirmisher to make full attacks with a melee weapon while mounted. Anyone with a bow can make a full attack while mounted without any special feat.
Gah, you're right!
Aside from archery, into heavy cavalry: if you use the Sohei bonus feats to take Mounted Skirmisher early, and took Weapon Training on lances, by level 6 you'd be doing Ride By/Spirited Charge full attacks with the lance for massive damage (lances deal double damage on a mounted charge, and so does Spirited Charge; two doublings make a tripling, but that's still three attacks for triple damage every round.
|
Design Manager
|
Just so we're clear here, you only need Mounted Skirmisher to make full attacks with a melee weapon while mounted. Anyone with a bow can make a full attack while mounted without any special feat.Gah, you're right!
Aside from archery, into heavy cavalry: if you use the Sohei bonus feats to take Mounted Skirmisher early, and took Weapon Training on lances, by level 6 you'd be doing Ride By/Spirited Charge full attacks with the lance for massive damage (lances deal double damage on a mounted charge, and so does Spirited Charge; two doublings make a tripling, but that's still three attacks for triple damage every round.
The devs actually made it pretty clear that only the first attack in a mounted charge sequence gains the benefit of the charges increased damage. I can dig around and find the thread for you, but I'm 100% on this one. You'd get one triple damage attack, and two regular attacks.