Charger Character Seems Ineffective


Advice


I have a player who has a gnome cavalier who is trying to be a charger with a lance on the back of a medium mount.

The biggest concern here was, from the group as a whole, we went through an entire adventure module and he wasn't able to charge, not even once. The mechanics never allowed for it. I wasn't trying to shut him down either, its just... dungeons seem so cramped from hallway to room that being 15 feet away and in a straight line from your opponent without anyone in the way just never ever seems to happen.

The reach weapon isn't so much of a problem. The AoOs and attacking from a distance, etc. really were tactical. In fact, if he wasn't using a reach weapon, he would have gotten off far fewer attack rolls. Why? Well, the second gripe has been that having to roll to make Ride checks just to move a mount seems pretty lame... a Ride check to make your mount attack is ok, but just to move? That leads to LOTS of rolls... and of course over and over again where the roll to move was a high roll, and then the attack that follows is crap. I realize that last point is just subject to random chance, but it happens often, and every time it does, its disheartening.

I realize it seems like being on a mount and having the extra actions etc. are good and powerful, but that's on paper. In practice, this character is driving the player and the other players at the table a little nuts in how unpredictable it is, and how many rolls it has to take just to do anything... and the fact that it's best move NEVER happens.... not that its not a successful attack roll, but that the event never is even attempted, ever.

Any thoughts? Should I just let this character be re-rolled? Anyone else experience chargers being ineffective in most adventures?


Hi, welcome!

Would you mind explaining why he's having to make Ride checks every round? There is no Ride check necessary to have a combat-trained mount move in battle.

Even if he's trying to use both hands, as long as the character has at least a +4 to the Ride check, it's an automatic success and there's no need for him to roll. Remember that skills don't fail when you roll a 1.

Also, how often is the cavalier unable to charge just because allies are in the way?

Sovereign Court

The roll to control your mount in battle is only for non-combat trained mounts. He shouldn't need to be making so many rolls.

Regarding terrain, the best thing you can do it not fight in cramped corridors and such. Don't over-specialize and be prepared to fight off your mount. Some of the charge feats can be used off mounts to great effect. Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc.

Help from the rest of the party members is necessary sometimes. Tell them, "Hey, I can be a lot more effective if you don't plop yourself in my line of movement to the BBEG at the start of every combat." After all, you wouldn't deny the rogue a flanking position, so leave some space for the chargers.


The check for controlling your mount in combat (DC 20) is for non-combat trained mounts and the cavalier's mount is always considered combat trained (per his class feature). The check for guiding with your knees is DC5, which he should autopass if he has put any points into riding. The cavalier should not be rolling to move his mount at all.

Even the check to have your mount attack is only DC10, which the cavalier should be able to autopass pretty quickly.

Being able to charge is all about how good the player is at tactics and if there are open places to charge from. I find it very surprising that all of your combat has been in such tight quarters. Even in a dungeon there could be some large chambers, and there probably should be to allow the player to use the character they've made and to keep combat varied.


Hm, by RAW, even if you "auto-pass" ... I guess this is more of a rules question now, don't you still have to roll even if you can't fail? If it wasn't in combat, obviously a Take 10 would apply, but since its in combat, even though the check to guide with the knees is only a 5 and to attack is only a 10... by RAW there is still a roll prescribed right?

I guess, it doesn't matter what RAW is, I'll go with what you guys are saying: no roll is required if failure is impossible. It's a little bit annoying from a realism standpoint that failure is IMPOSSIBLE though... instead of just very unlikely, but eh, whatever.

As for space... maybe its just this particular dungeon we are in, but people aren't really in his way, its just the "straight line" thing that is making it impossible. Because he uses a lance, and has to move 10 feet to where he is in striking distance, he actually has to be THREE squares, not two away, and in a completely straight line from his opponent. Most of the time, things just don't line up like this regardless, and in the rare circumstance where they have, there is a pillar, pit of water, sarcophagus, or gods knows what else in the way, not so much other players. He is the highest armored character in the bunch, and his mount has a decent AC too, so he's been out front, but still unable to get a charge due to having to be in a totally straight line to do so.

Sovereign Court

setzer9999 wrote:
don't you still have to roll even if you can't fail?

The point is, he doesn't even have to make a check.

From the PRD: "Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn." (bolding mine)

From the Cavalier Mount (ex) class feature: "The mount is always considered combat trained"

So, he doesn't even need to make the check since it is combat trained.


He has to guide it with his knees because he has a shield and a lance. That remains for combat trained mounts too. Sure, he succeeds even on a 1, but technically he still has to roll. I'm going to waive having to roll anyway though for check values the players are fully aware of.

Still sucks that there are things that become impossible to fail though.


Just for clarification, a strait line is not necessarily a straight horizontal or vertical line. It just means not curved or bent. here is a few examples of legal lines;
OOOO
OO[]O
OO[]O
OO[]O
OOOO

OOOOOOO
O[][][][][]O
OOOOOOO

OOOOOO
OOOO[]O
OOO[]OO
OO[]OOO
O[]OOOO
OOOOOO

OOOOOO
OOO[]OO
OO[]OOO
OO[]OOO
O[]OOOO
O[]OOOO
OOOOOO

OOOOO
OO[]OO
OO[]OO
OO[]OO
O[]OOO
O[]OOO
O[]OOO
OOOOO

Remember, that this game tries to emulate the real world in squares, so some abstract thinking is often required (think flying on a 2D map). you are not restricted to 90 degree turns from your front facing (witch also does not exist in this game :P) Do remember that every 2 squares diagonally counts as 15 ft of movement, not 10.


How often do you see a trained knight just fall off of his horse from starting a charge?
It doesn't suck. It makes sense.

One of the suck bits of having a mount of any size is lack of room. I'm guessing that not every corridor will have the room for it but hopefully in the future his wanting to charge will pay off.

Would Ride By Attack alleviate the need for as much room? Lets him charge past so would not need as much room up front? Would only need the minimum 10 feet instead of your indicated 15 and then continue on?

Since the Cavalier's critter gets feats, you might want him to look into Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps to help his master get those charges off?


Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
Some of the charge feats can be used off mounts to great effect. Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc.

You (still) can't use Vital Strike on a charge. Vital Strike requires an attack action; the single attack from a charge comes from a charge action, not an attack action.

Sovereign Court

setzer9999 wrote:

He has to guide it with his knees because he has a shield and a lance. That remains for combat trained mounts too. Sure, he succeeds even on a 1, but technically he still has to roll. I'm going to waive having to roll anyway though for check values the players are fully aware of.

Still sucks that there are things that become impossible to fail though.

Oh, that roll? See the rules for skill checks (from the PRD):

"If the result of your skill check is equal to or greater than the difficulty class (or DC) of the task you are attempting to accomplish, you succeed. If it is less than the DC, you fail."

Nothing about failing on a roll of 1. You said, "Sure, he succeeds even on a 1," so there is no point in rolling. If he can't fail, don't worry about taking the time to do it.


Gobo Horde wrote:

Just for clarification, a strait line is not necessarily a straight horizontal or vertical line. It just means not curved or bent. here is a few examples of legal lines;

[...]

Remember, that this game tries to emulate the real world in squares, so some abstract thinking is often required (think flying on a 2D map). you are not restricted to 90 degree turns from your front facing (witch also does not exist in this game :P) Do remember that every 2 squares diagonally counts as 15 ft of movement, not 10.

You've got it right for 3.5, but the PFRPG charge rules are substantially simplified, and completely remove the "knight movement" charge paths.

The important thing here is that charge paths are *actually* drawn with straight lines, and not "snap-to-grid" pseudostraight lines. You map your path in real-world-straight lines, from corner-to-corner of your square(s) to your target squares(s), and if there's anything in the squares you even partially cross with those lines, your charge lane is blocked. (Line effects, such as lightning bolt, use similar rules.)

This does, in fact, represent a substantial limitation to the efficacy of the charge action (and a substantial improvement to the potential zone of targets of line effects).

Sovereign Court

Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
Some of the charge feats can be used off mounts to great effect. Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc.
You (still) can't use Vital Strike on a charge. Vital Strike requires an attack action; the single attack from a charge comes from a charge action, not an attack action.

Huh, that is news to me. I guess it is necessary to prevent all kinds of pounce-lance-charge BS.


Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
Some of the charge feats can be used off mounts to great effect. Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc.
You (still) can't use Vital Strike on a charge. Vital Strike requires an attack action; the single attack from a charge comes from a charge action, not an attack action.
Huh, that is news to me. I guess it is necessary to prevent all kinds of pounce-lance-charge BS.

I literally shuddered at the thought of vital strike applying to a pounced full suite of attacks.


Give the mount Improved Unarmed Strike and Dragon Style feats!

That will improve the chances to charge things greatly since you can then ignore difficult terrain and friendly people in the way.

Now you just need to find a way to turn while charging, and you're gold most everywhere! (aside from giving the mount duelist levels =))


a small character on a medium mount shouldn't have any problems charging. non mounted chars charge in dungeons all the time. the thing that becomes an issue. is obstacles.

in one of our previous games the halfling cavalier got around this by getting his wold 3 int then using spider climb and fly potions.


So these are not allowed movement paths for a charge?
.
.
.
.
.
.
OOOOOO
OOO[]OO
OO[]OOO
OO[]OOO
O[]OOOO
O[]OOOO
OOOOOO

OOOOO
OO[]OO
OO[]OO
OO[]OO
O[]OOO
O[]OOO
O[]OOO
OOOOO


yes those are fine. But if your base encounters anything along those lines it becomes a problem.

Sovereign Court

Lastoth wrote:

So these are not allowed movement paths for a charge?

.
.
.
.
.
.
OOOOOO
OOO[]OO
OO[]OOO
OO[]OOO
O[]OOOO
O[]OOOO
OOOOOO

OOOOO
OO[]OO
OO[]OO
OO[]OO
O[]OOO
O[]OOO
O[]OOO
OOOOO

They are, in fact, allowed. But it's not the shape of the line that matters, merely that it's straight. The three major qualifications on when you can charge are:

CRB wrote:
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

So it doesn't matter what kind of line you're using. Rather, if any straight line between where you are and where you want to go isn't legal, then you can't charge.


setzer9999 wrote:
Still sucks that there are things that become impossible to fail though.

There are a great many activities, even in combat, that don't require a roll. You don't roll to walk, run, sprint, open doors, climb stairs, cook food well enough not to poison yourself, bathe, move heavy objects up to your STR maximum, ride/drive in a non-combat situation, etc. In real life, people get hurt or killed doing all of those things every day!

Guiding a trained mount using only your knees is, in fact, extremely easy. It's easier than driving a car with one hand, because a horse will stop you from making really bad choices like steering into a wall, while the car will follow even the dumbest accidental command.

I guess what I'm really saying is, don't sweat the "automatic success" too much. Riding a horse SHOULD be as easy as walking - for a cavalier!


How to charge:

"You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."

Frequently, especially with a reach weapon, it's possible to charge an enemy in complicated terrain. Here's an example.

Shadow Lodge

One thing you could do is allow his mount to jump small obstacles (like a desk or log)as part of a charge. I once read a developer rule that you can do this but I can't find the thread now. However it would still be a simple house rule that would allow for more charge opportunities.


Wow, I had no idea you could charge "directly at" your opponent outside of grid mechanics. I assumed the whole "creatures occupy 5 foot cubes" thing took into account that creatures aren't actually themselves 5 foot cubes, and therefore could be anywhere within that space... which lead me to believe that "directly at" meant that THESE were the only legal shape for a charge:

OOOO
OO[]O
OO[]O
OO[]O
OOOO

OOOO
OOO[]
OO[]O
O[]OO
OOOO

... if it means more literally, not grid mechanics literally, but actual literally, that you can charge as long as its a straight line (and that line isn't interrupted by solid objects or creatures), then he could have been charging a lot more often... whoops. OK, but we'll be happier now that we know that!

I hadn't though this was a rules question because I hadn't considered that interpretation at all, so I put it in advice, but thanks all! That makes him much better.


I second allowing the mount to jump small obstacles (that I might require an easy ride check).

Also, seems like I remember some feat that allowed you to charge when not a straight line. But I can't find it now. Maybe I imagined it. {shrug}

But really, if the whole campaign is going to be in tight quarters, I would say cavalier is not the best fit. I would allow the player to introduce a new PC.


Buy horse shoes with the spider climb spell and use the ceiling or walls for charging if the floor is too cluttered. It might take a round of manoeuvring to find the right charging starting point.
Combine with the Lunge feat and the reach weapon he is already using and the cavalier should have even less problems.


How is the cavalier supposed to stay in the saddle of a spider-climbing mount?!


Straps. Velcro. sovereign glue?


BltzKrg242 wrote:
Straps. Velcro. sovereign glue?

Careful with the sovereign glue!


I'm running a Gnome Cav too. It sounds like The GM should have said that it wouldn't be to useful in the game. The book even says to ask if Cav. would be useful in the game. There are interesting feats for chrgeing and Bull rushing and are expanded in Advanced Players Guide along with in Ultimate Combat. If I remimber correctly one of them has a feat that allows you to turn while performing a Bull Rush, not sure if that helps any.

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