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I was just looking at my "prepare everyday" spells for my 9th level wizard (coming soon to a game near me) and I'm now wondering if it's even worthwhile to prepare Mage Armor. Yes, it's a +4 to AC for a measly 1st level slot, but according to professor Q's equipment guide, you need a 19 AC at 9th level for AC to even begin to matter. Assuming a Dex bonus of +2, Mage Armor leaves me with an AC of 16. If I were to cast Shield as well my AC would bump up to 20, just barely above the threshold; but now we're at two 1st level slots, one of which has to be cast within minutes of battle.
So, I ask more experienced players: is Mage Armor worth it? Are there some higher-level foes for which it makes a difference, e.g. mage-on-mage knife fights? Or should I save my 1st level slots for extra copies of Silent Image, Grease, Magic Missile, etc.?
I would guess (didn't do the math really) that against mooks it's still useful very useful.
Just guessing, at 9th level mooks probably don't have a BAB of above 5, masterwork at most and a +2 or +3 strength. That means against your naked AC of 12 they still need to roll a 3 or so to hit, with mage armor that goes up to 7. So it does help.
Against same level fighters or similar challanges it won't do anything though.
There are many other ways to keep up on AC: Ring of deflection. Amulet of Natural armour.+X mithral buckler, etc…
If you use some combination of these things, then mage armour can start to make sense. If you don't make any effort to keep your AC up though, the +4 from mage armour won't help much. Whether AC remains a viable choice is in your hands as a player, if you have some control over your magic items. If you're mostly at the mercy of your DM for equipment, then your mileage may vary. Wizards have a harder time keeping up than certain other classes, obviously, and many players prefer to dump AC and find other means of protection.
I find Mage Armor a real lifesaver if your GM loves to toss incorporeal foes at you.
Never forget, the armor bonus from force effects applies to incorporeal touch attacks.
Of course, once you start using +5 bracers or better, all that MA is good for is casting it on your familiar (or maybe the monk)
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By itself if you do not invest in boosting AC it will not be that useful, if you invest some gold in :
- ring of protection +1
- belt of dexterity +2
- amulet of natural armor +1
- (rod of lesser quicken is also very useful)
cost 8,000 gold
AC will typically be, 10 base, +3 dex, +4 mage armor, +1 ring, + 1 natural
for AC 19, 14 touch and 18 vs incorporeal foes.
possible (additional) spells cast :
1) haste, cast in most tough encounters giving you +1 dodge, +1 reflex saves, 30'move.
2) shield, +4 shield, immunity to magic missile, it is a force effect helping against incorporeal attacks combined with mage armor this might help alot if you come across incorporeals suddenly
3) monstrous physique I :
* (gargoyle) flight, +2 natural armor, darkvision, claws, bite, gore
and +2 strength
* (charda) breathe water, swim speed, claws (x4), bite, +1 natural armor
+2 dex, small size, 20'move, darkvision
Both useful shapes in the right situation, charda is slightly better of for AC and helps ranged attacks, but usually gargoyle is great for the flight and add on benefits compared to the fly spell.. just do not fly too high, since it doesn't have fly's safeguard.
4) reduce person, slightly worse than charda shape, giving less AC and a casting time of 1 round, but it is only a level 1 spell.
You should have a rod of (lesser) quicken spell to cast either of these spells more quickly when you need it, but casting a haste spell combined with just a quickened shield will get your AC up to 24 which is fairly respectable. If you do not feel quite safe yet monstrous physique can take you into the air and boost AC to 26.
The above is assuming a decent focus on AC, usually a mirror image spell or displacement will do a fine job. either way I think you should still cast it, even if it prevents you being hit once in a day it is probably worth it.
you should be investing in bracers of armor asap. +8 constant with no wasted spell or ASF, and they are cheap.
you should be investing in bracers of armor asap. +8 constant with no wasted spell or ASF, and they are cheap.
'cheap' is relative, bracers of armor +4 cost 16,000 gold with virtually no added benefit, costing 9,000 gold more to upgrade to +5.
Instead of that 25,000 gold you can cast mage armor and have a ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of dexterity +2 and a mithral buckler for +5 AC.
In PFS I would just buy a wand of extend and effectively have perma mage armor by level 5.
In a campain, cerimonial silk armor can be enchanted to +5 (granting +6 AC) much more cheaply than bracers.
true about the ceremonial armor, though bracers do provide bonus against incorporeal and can be enchanted to +8.
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As a wizard you HAVE to use mage armor until you can replace it with something better. Something better means bracers of armor or at least +5 (25000gp). Since wealth per level cramps your purchasing power for an item like this until about 11 or 12th level (you need to buy spells and too many other items), there is no logical reason to eliminate mage armor from your rotation until then.
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In PFS I would just buy a wand of extend and effectively have perma mage armor by level 5.
In a campain, cerimonial silk armor can be enchanted to +5 (granting +6 AC) much more cheaply than bracers.
For PFS, just get a wand of mage armour for 2 prestige points and don't worry about it. There will not be many situations where you need it for more than an hour. Even if you cast it two to three times a scenario, you still have nearly six level's worth of the buff for a measly 2 pp.
If you have some other way of gaining an AC bonus of 4 or more, then mage armor isn't worth it, otherwise it is.
You are playing a wizard, great! If you aren't making scrolls in town you should consider doing so. On days when the party is not in immediate danger of being absolutely slaughtered you can scribe all your spells per day onto semi-permanent scrolls. I believe it takes 1 hour per spell level, so it's not like you can make 4 scrolls of ride the lightning, but you can, and probably should, stock up on spells you think you will want on a situation basis. As a GM, I allow my players to create the scrolls as lower caster levels than they actually are, down to the lowest level the character would have access to the spell at. That saves them some money. In any case, the biggest perk to wizards is the ability to have nearly unlimited spells per day (As long as you have the coin).
If you are worried about using the scroll in combat and losing a turn, I suggest you make one or two scrolls per party member while you're in town. When it comes time to enter the dragons lair you can give each party member 9 hours of protection. Mage armor also lasts while you sleep so you can cast it on players in camp to help ward against the inevitable ambush at night.
One quick note about shield: I had the party fight a Dwarven defender once who had an ac so high that they had to roll a 18 or higher to hit him. He didn't attack, but the room was rigged with wands of magic missile that would discharge on random party members each round. The sorcerer cast five minutes of shield and the group pound down commenced. Never seen so many sunder attempts.
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I was just looking at my "prepare everyday" spells for my 9th level wizard (coming soon to a game near me) and I'm now wondering if it's even worthwhile to prepare Mage Armor. Yes, it's a +4 to AC for a measly 1st level slot, but according to professor Q's equipment guide, you need a 19 AC at 9th level for AC to even begin to matter. Assuming a Dex bonus of +2, Mage Armor leaves me with an AC of 16. If I were to cast Shield as well my AC would bump up to 20, just barely above the threshold; but now we're at two 1st level slots, one of which has to be cast within minutes of battle.
So, I ask more experienced players: is Mage Armor worth it? Are there some higher-level foes for which it makes a difference, e.g. mage-on-mage knife fights? Or should I save my 1st level slots for extra copies of Silent Image, Grease, Magic Missile, etc.?
Get a +2 haramaki and a +2 mithral buckler and you've almost made up the difference with Shield and Mage Armor. If you can afford +3, you've effectively made those spells useless.
And why aren't you using a wand of Mage Armor instead of preparing it every day? You can save those slots and just cast it every time it runs out. That's at most 8 uses a day for a day of adventuring, at 9th level, that's pretty paltry as far as the cost.
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One quick note about shield: I had the party fight a Dwarven defender once who had an ac so high that they had to roll a 18 or higher to hit him. He didn't attack, but the room was rigged with wands of magic missile that would discharge on random party members each round. The sorcerer cast five minutes of shield and the group pound down commenced. Never seen so many sunder attempts.
Interesting. How did the sorcerer manage to cast shield on his allies?
More interesting, how did the wizard create more than one magic item per day?
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For PFS, just get a wand of mage armour for 2 prestige points and don't worry about it. There will not be many situations where you need it for more than an hour. Even if you cast it two to three times a scenario, you still have nearly six level's worth of the buff for a measly 2 pp.In PFS I would just buy a wand of extend and effectively have perma mage armor by level 5.
In a campain, cerimonial silk armor can be enchanted to +5 (granting +6 AC) much more cheaply than bracers.
I don't want to waste an action casting or, even worse, be unprotected during a surprise round.
Sorry if I missed this, but I didn't see this said: given that wizards can learn technically as many spells as can exist and sorcerers can retrain spells they no longer use every few levels, there's no reason not to take mage armor if you want it and then, if you think it ceases being useful, just stop prepping it/replace it with a different spell at a higher level.
@Mergy I don't remember off hand, but he proposed his tactic to me and I allowed it.
@ Adamantine Dragon
Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
I don't remember reading that only one Item can be created per day, but afrer reviewing the rules I suppose this is the case, under that circumstance I would revise my prior statement by saying There is no reason to not leave a spell slot open and at the end of the day prepare a spell and scribe it into a scroll, in effect making one scroll per day.
you should be investing in bracers of armor asap. +8 constant with no wasted spell or ASF, and they are cheap.'cheap' is relative, bracers of armor +4 cost 16,000 gold with virtually no added benefit, costing 9,000 gold more to upgrade to +5.
Instead of that 25,000 gold you can cast mage armor and have a ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of dexterity +2 and a mithral buckler for +5 AC.
I see most wizards in my group create their own Bracers of AC +4 for 8000 gp. They get the feat with the Wizard bonus feat at 5th level then use it to create the Bracers as they only need the spell memorized and are over 8th level. The DC 12 Spell Craft check is trivial to make and 8 days down time between levels 8 and 9 usually isn't hard to find.
I don't remember reading that only one Item can be created per day, but afrer reviewing the rules I suppose this is the case, under that circumstance I would revise my prior statement by saying There is no reason to not leave a spell slot open and at the end of the day prepare a spell and scribe it into a scroll, in effect making one scroll per day.You can make scrolls with more than one spell on them, just slide under 1k gp value.
-James
true, but unless you have some feat I am not aware of, you can still only make one scroll per day. According to the magic item creation rules, you can only make one magic item per day. And a scroll is a magic item.
At extremely high levels I occasionally like to use empowered Mage Armor for a +6 bonus.
It's not really worth it until you've got enough higher level spell slots to spare a 3rd level one, and of course as others have said, you really can't defend yourself with Mage Armor alone. You need to actually put effort into it.
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Welcome to being a high level spell caster, where your AC isn't that important. You can take a few hits and then get the heck out of danger if you need to, or things won't survive more then a few rounds about anyway to really need to worry about it. Your defensive spells become much more about miss chance then wasting a lot of time, money and energy on your AC. If your doing Mirror Image, Blur or something along those lines that should be enough for the most part.
So if you want it, take back your 1st level spell slot and play smart and you should be fine in all but the most extreme situations.
Until you get bracers of armor +4 it's still worth it.
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Until you get bracers of armor +4 it's still worth it.
I don't really understand why anyone would buy bracers of armor ever again, now that the Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor are around. They're cheaper: +3 Haramaki gives a +4 armor bonus for the same price as +3 bracers of armor, and they also leave you a magic item slot open for bracers of archery or raven bracers or any other "arms" item.
you should be investing in bracers of armor asap. +8 constant with no wasted spell or ASF, and they are cheap.
I agree that by level 9 +4 bracers should have shown up by now.
You have an odd idea of cheep if you consider +8 bracers cost 64,000gp.
The best defense for a caster is to get some miss chance. A lesser cloak of displacement for a constant 20% and start each fight with Imp invisibility for 50%.
Until you get bracers of armor +4 it's still worth it.I don't really understand why anyone would buy bracers of armor ever again, now that the Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor are around. They're cheaper: +3 Haramaki gives a +4 armor bonus for the same price as +3 bracers of armor, and they also leave you a magic item slot open for bracers of archery or raven bracers.
At low levels that is a great idea but the +5 Haramaki maxes out at +6 AC. If you are willing to pay for them bracers can take you up to +10 AC.
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At low levels that is a great idea but the +5 Haramaki maxes out at +6 AC. If you are willing to pay for them bracers can take you up to +10 AC.Until you get bracers of armor +4 it's still worth it.I don't really understand why anyone would buy bracers of armor ever again, now that the Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor are around. They're cheaper: +3 Haramaki gives a +4 armor bonus for the same price as +3 bracers of armor, and they also leave you a magic item slot open for bracers of archery or raven bracers.
Ah! Fair point, didn't think about the +5 limit.
Yeah, in short... it matters if you're keeping up with your AC in other departments. It matters not at all if you aren't (unless you happen to be fighting a lot of drastically-lower-than-EL-appropriate enemies).
If your GM allows 3pp content, I've got a $0.99 product for sale on the webstore which contains 32 new arcane discoveries. In particular, the "Insightful Preparation" discovery might interest you with regards to this problem.
Otherwise, I more or less agree with james maissen's solution. A first-level spell slot is "worth" significantly more than a 750-gp wand of mage armor at any level.
At extremely high levels I occasionally like to use empowered Mage Armor for a +6 bonus.
It's not really worth it until you've got enough higher level spell slots to spare a 3rd level one, and of course as others have said, you really can't defend yourself with Mage Armor alone. You need to actually put effort into it.
Just as a note, Mage Armor is not a valid target for Empower Spell as it has no random numeric variables.
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Just as a note, Mage Armor is not a valid target for Empower Spell as it has no random numeric variables.At extremely high levels I occasionally like to use empowered Mage Armor for a +6 bonus.
It's not really worth it until you've got enough higher level spell slots to spare a 3rd level one, and of course as others have said, you really can't defend yourself with Mage Armor alone. You need to actually put effort into it.
Totally right, Empower only works on "variable, numeric effects".
To the OP:
The real thing you need to ask yourself is: What is the cost for my NEXT POINT of AC.
Not 'should I keep casting mage armor'.
Going from Mage Armor to Bracers AC5 means that for +1 Armor AC you just paid 25,000 gp, since Mage Armor costs NOTHING.
HEre's two tables:
ADD Add’l COST AC TOTAL TOTAL COST
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +8 21000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +9 26000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +10 32000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +11 38000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +12 45000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +13 52000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +14 61000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +15 70000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +16 80000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +17 90000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +18 102000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +19 116000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +20 130000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +21 148000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +22 166000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +23 186000
And
+1 Armor bonus: 1000 gp, +3000 gp; +5000 Gp; +7000 gp; +9000 gp.
+1 Shield bonus: As +1 Armor
+1 Natural Armor: 2000 gp; +6000 gp; +10000 gp; +14000 gp; +18000 gp.
+1 Deflection bonus: As Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Dexterity bonus: 4000 gp (Dex +2); +12000 gp (Dex +4); +20,000 gp (Dex+6)
Mithral Armor (Total bonus +2): Light, +1000 gp, Medium Armor +4000 gp, Heavy armor +9000 gp.
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Your key here is, when does it make sense to spend $25,000 gp for ONE point of AC?
The answer is simple...it is the very LAST thing you upgrade your AC with. Bracers of Armor 5+ costs less then upgrading a +6 Dex booster from +4 to +6. Ergo, you aren't going to improve on Mage Armor in turns of cost to AC until you are very high level.
Keep casting mage armor and upgrade everything else to save money.
For the 25,000 Gp of the bracers +5, You can: Get a Ring of Prot+2, Nat AC +2, Mithril Shield +3, and +2 Dex belt and cast Mage Armor for +14 AC.
You'll next buy an Ioun Stone for +1 Insight to AC. You don't bother with Bracers until you've nothing else to buy. Use the slot every day, have a level 1 wand as backup, and go about your business.
==Aelryinth
Note, if you use 3.5 there is a level 3 Greater Mage Armor that provides +6 AC, and is otherwise identical. Yet another massive cost saver for a wizard.
Also note that if you can afford a Twilight Mithral Chain shirt, you should totally do that. No casting penalty, +5 to AC for 5000 gp is a total steal.
==Aelryinth
At higher levels, MA doesn't do anything for a sor/wiz, since they have bracers that mimic the same effect, usually.
It still works for allies fighting incorporeals, though, so a wand isn't a bad idea for your warrior types. Unless they have ghost touch armor, they have no effective armor against them.
As a player who plays a lot of sor/wiz types, I find bracers, expensive as they are, useful for that reason, and I like having a high-level caster with no feats spent on armor or shield proficiencies. Force is good.
Bracers of Armor are grossly overpriced.
At higher levels, a 1st level spell slot is chump change. Totally worth it. And yes, only one slot, no matter how many party members want it or how many "in case of dispel" back ups you want. They're called pearls of power, folks. Level 1 are 1000 gp a pop, that's not bad. Speaking of dispelling...this is why I'd go with it as a spell and not from a wand. Why risk dropping 4 AC in the middle of combat from some mook's dispel when you can just have one at your super buffed CL?
The only reason to drop MA is when you can afford +4 or +5 haramaki, since that offers better AC plus you can put fortification and such on it. You should never get bracers of armor. Like literally...if you kept all the other AC boosting items upgraded (shield, natural armor, deflection, dex bonus, insight [dusty rose uon stone], etc...) such that you always boost the cheapest option by 1 before upgrading something else... You'll seriously reach end game before bracers of armor are even worth it, mathematically.
Embrace the christmas tree of magic items. That's how you keep your AC relevant. +5 Haramaki, dusty rose iuon stone for +1 insight, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, +5 mithral buckler, Belt of Dexterity +6, stone of good luck... that is what a high level wizard's AC looks like. It's then supplemented with mirror images, miss chance %, and possibly being on an entire other plane of existence, of course. :) Oh, and a contingency spell.
Bracers of Armor are grossly overpriced.
At higher levels, a 1st level spell slot is chump change. Totally worth it. And yes, only one slot, no matter how many party members want it or how many "in case of dispel" back ups you want. They're called pearls of power, folks. Level 1 are 1000 gp a pop, that's not bad. Speaking of dispelling...this is why I'd go with it as a spell and not from a wand. Why risk dropping 4 AC in the middle of combat from some mook's dispel when you can just have one at your super buffed CL?
The only reason to drop MA is when you can afford +4 or +5 haramaki, since that offers better AC plus you can put fortification and such on it. You should never get bracers of armor. Like literally...if you kept all the other AC boosting items upgraded (shield, natural armor, deflection, dex bonus, insight [dusty rose uon stone], etc...) such that you always boost the cheapest option by 1 before upgrading something else... You'll seriously reach end game before bracers of armor are even worth it, mathematically.
Embrace the christmas tree of magic items. That's how you keep your AC relevant. +5 Haramaki, dusty rose iuon stone for +1 insight, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, +5 mithral buckler, Belt of Dexterity +6, stone of good luck... that is what a high level wizard's AC looks like. It's then supplemented with mirror images, miss chance %, and possibly being on an entire other plane of existence, of course. :) Oh, and a contingency spell.
Again, you're presuming all the cheese is allowed, and ignoring the high cost and high benefit of force magic. There's also action economy to consider, since few parties start an encounter with every spell they'd like already in place.
Bracers of armor, kids. Expensive. For damn good reason! Don't leave home without it.
Once you can afford +5 bracers, just get a cheap wand for the rare occasion when an ally can use some force AC. Use that slot for something useful, like magic missile. It hurts things your fighters will miss.
A +5 bracers costs 25,000 gp. A 1st level pearl of power is 1000 gp. That's a steep increase for +1 AC.
And what cheese? The only thing listed that wasn't core was the haramaki.
And what action economy? I described nothing but permanent magic items, aside from the mage armor spell, which lasts HOURS. Unless you're talking about the miss chance, etc... Which was kind of to the side of the whole AC thing anyway, just mentioned for completeness.
A +5 bracers costs 25,000 gp. A 1st level pearl of power is 1000 gp. That's a steep increase for +1 AC.
And what cheese? The only thing listed that wasn't core was the haramaki.
And what action economy? I described nothing but permanent magic items, aside from the mage armor spell, which lasts HOURS. Unless you're talking about the miss chance, etc... Which was kind of to the side of the whole AC thing anyway, just mentioned for completeness.
Not flaming or arguing for the sake of it. I just really like force AC because it works so well, and a sor/wiz likes it all day and night.
Yes, I mean the miss chance, and all the things it works against. There are some ugly monsters out there that can kill a character with a few touch attacks. Their frequency is a function of the campaign, but they usually pop up now and then.
Force is rare as a spell effect, or in items. It's really expensive, too. It just works so well, no questions asked...
Or you could get dex, dodge, insight, deflection, luck, etc... AC bonuses, which unlike the force armor, will apply to all touch attacks, and not just incorporeal touch attacks.
And will give you more AC per cost than the bracers will.
But, your call.
And again, I mentioned the miss chance stuff for completeness. Whether someone's using bracers, mage armor, or haramaki doesn't matter for that, other than having more money to spend on it, possibly.
<--- At high level this is what a wizards defenses should look like.
Mirror Image/Displacement/Invisibility are nice, but can be easily negated by True Sight at high level.
I know in previous editions there was a spell called Greater Mage Armor or something like that and it granted a +8 to AC - anyone know why it never crossed over? If a 1st level spell can get you +4 AC, it can't possibly be that big a deal to get +8...