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In brief: I don't really consider it a problem that a 6th level PC who focuses heavily on defense ends up with a good defense.
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...hold person...shoot PC. Problem solved.
If you focus on only ONE aspect of the game then yes the PCs will break that system. You have to be prepared to use the WHOLE game in order to make the game challenging, fun and fair for everyone.
In your description you said level 1 and then included stats for a Monk level 6. A level 1 baddy vs. a level 6 PC will lose hands down no matter what game you are in. If they are a Monk 6 with AC 20 and using guns then there is something seriously wrong here. All you have to do is throw lightly armored fighters/rogues back at them and use melee weapons. 20 AC at level 6 is no biggy...just use a sword.
It seems like what happened here is since the players knew that every 1st level npc was going to have a gun, they built characters with high touch ACs so that the npcs wouldn't be able to hurt them so easily. It makes sense if you think about it... why build an armor using class if armor is useless?
The players could make it even worse by using the deflect arrow feat, since by the RAW rules that allows you to deflect bullets.
You might want to talk with your players about it, because if you start just changing rules on them they might get upset. They probably feel like they're just doing the sensible thing and trying to protect themselves.
The only way to make your commoners any more threatening by the RAW rules is to also give them masterwork weapons and additional feats to improve their aim (like weapon focus or point blank shot). Of course, the monk and combat expertise users are going to have too high of a touch AC even for that in a few levels.
Edit: There are a few other options to keep in mind I suppose. If your commoner attacks first, then the PC will be flat footed and won't have combat expertise active... which will drop his AC significantly.
Edit 2: Also, keep in mind that if you make guns more powerful that some of your players might start using them as well, and they're expect rules to work the same way for them as well.
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Could also start giving some commoners some character levels...make them level 2 rogues or fighters. Take advantage of Improved Feint to deny them Dex to AC. Use Web. Use Alchemists with splash weapons so even if you miss they take splash damage.
Personally I equate this to putting me in a room full of 4 year olds and telling them to attack me. Its only going to make me chuckle as I mow down, throw and use the midgets as weapons against each other. Level 1 commoners against level 6 PCs is a joke.
Level 1 commoners against level 6 PCs is a joke.
Now, if these are a horde of Level 1 Tucker's Kobold commoners with firearms...
It seems like what happened here is since the players knew that every 1st level npc was going to have a gun, they built characters with high touch ACs so that the npcs wouldn't be able to hurt them so easily.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, he's not talking about an actual character; he's just saying it's hypothetically possible to have a level 6 PC with a relatively high touch AC.
In my description, I'm talking about level 1 guys shooting at level 6 PCs. Sorry if I didn't get that across well enough.
A level 1 warrior should be able to rack +4 to +5 easily enough:
Warrior +1 BABDex 15 +2
Weapon Focus +1
Point Blank Shot +1
That's enough to hit your AC20 monk easily enough, and the monk with AC20 probably has the highest touch AC in the party. Because he has pushed up his dex, wis and int he's not going to be doing much back to the level 1 warrior.
Now if you had a level 6 character unable to hit the monk, THEN you have a problem...
Distance and sniper. You don't have your bonus to dex if you don't know the attack is coming.
Volume. If you are using level 1 commoners, than enough of them together would hurt a PC.
I know from the boards you run something like E6, are you doing the same here?
What is the setting like? There might be some build or tactical suggestions that might work in that setting.
and he's singling out monks in his example to make his touch ac possible.
honestly, if you end up in a party with rogues and monks, they are gonna have a lot more issues than commoners. say, doing anything else?
while its hypothetically possible within the system to break your deviated from the norm campaign setting, if every character does it, they'll have problems in every other aspect of the game, which runs into its own issues.
Quite frankly, I see no issue here.
I would be upset if I invested most of my resources into defense and then found out the dm made ways to overcome it. And who else besides gunslingers target touch ac wth firearms?
Allow aid another actions on firearms. Fluff it as NPCs standing in lines or clusters and doing volleys.
That's what Star Wars saga edition did in order to have low level mooks be able to hit higher level PCs occasionally.
Don't get to worked up on touch ac.
Your players could build PCs whose Armor helps against guns, too.
For example the gun tank archetype of the gunslinger.
I think that's what I would play in a game with lots of guns everywhere.
That archetype gets half his armor bonus + armor anhancementbonus vs gun attacks at 2nd level when he wears medium or heavy armor.
How about a room full of 4 year olds with guns?
Personally I equate this to putting me in a room full of 4 year olds and telling them to attack me. Its only going to make me chuckle as I mow down, throw and use the midgets as weapons against each other. Level 1 commoners against level 6 PCs is a joke.
Much the same considering these are not modern guns, lets see the 4 years old load the thing and get proper shot off with accuracy.
Distance and sniper. You don't have your bonus to dex if you don't know the attack is coming.
Volume. If you are using level 1 commoners, than enough of them together would hurt a PC.
I know from the boards you run something like E6, are you doing the same here?
What is the setting like? There might be some build or tactical suggestions that might work in that setting.
Yeah, it will either be E5 or E6. I'm always torn because I'd like to keep iterative attacks totally out of the game, but I don't want to deny sorcerers their third level spell.
The setting is 1880's Victorian era Steam Punk.
The problem with volume is that it just isn't realistic. The PCs are probably not about to kill all the babies, so their just isn't much incentive for 30 men to stay and fight after 15 just died to 4 people without killing any of them. Morale breaks pretty quickly when that's the kind of thing happening.
E-X is house rules anyways so just rule out iterative attacks entirely. Then you could go E8 if you wanted to. I find E8 works because Cleric domains kick in there and I'd allow feat to get level 9 blood line powers for the Sorcerer.
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I don't think you should have any reasonable expectation that 1st level commoners can hurt 6th level PCs. You should probably either accept that the average NPC in this world is not just a 1st level commoner OR choose a different system to use to run the game. Maybe some sort of modified Shadowrun would make more sense than Pathfinder if you want to preserve a guns are deadly feel in your game? Pathfinder is a game of superhero adventurers who don't just die when shot (or injured by a battleaxe, etc.).
If you want things to be a bit more scary when the players are dealing with multiple low level opponents, I'd suggest looking at the wound/vigor variant rules. Multiple low level enemies mean there is a good chance that at least one of them will get a crit, and crits are kind of scary with this system...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/variant-rules#TOC-Wounds-and-Vigor
So what do I have for mooks shooting at the high touch AC hero?
Surprise round shooting
Firing in a line to aid another
Give NPCs more Masterwork items
Anything else?
Sounds like you have a fun setting going on. I have been toying of making one like that.
If it is the victorian setting you can have a little more fun. Melee is still an option, it is not unsual to see people use blades with guns, so a mixture of the two keeps things hopping. I would look at Alchemical items like tanglefoot bags and whatnot.
Also, if they have any leveled individuals with them, build the mooks to support the leveled NPC (Which I know you know, so sorry for being obvious man.) Spells that debuff or alter the terrain to make it rough. Prepaired positions so closing is hard, granting more time for shots.
If you are using advanced firearms, go to Sherlock Holmes for inspiration. I remember a story, might have been a TV show, with a hand cranked automatic weapon. Everything becomes about reflex saves and finding cover as you have this thing barreling down at you. Gernades and the like also become a thing. I am sure there are other things as he liked using gasses and whatnot. I would even say that the movie had some great ideas.
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I still say exploding dice is the way to go.
This.
Pathfinder isn't a Wild Wild West shoot em up game...if I were your PCs I'd be murdering and pillaging because the amount of money to be made off all the guns laying around would be ludicrous. Kill 10-15 level 1 commoners, take guns, sell them, win. Rinse and repeat until I am a god.
I still say exploding dice is the way to go.
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I still say exploding dice is the way to go.
While I agree that killing the players is one way to make the game feel more dangerous, I'm serious about the ludicrousness of using 1st level commoners.
Cranewings, have you looked at the NPC stat-blocks in the GMG? The only thing that's a commoner 1 is the village idiot. A barmaid is a commoner 2. A beggar is a commoner 1/rogue 1. A drunkard is a commoner 1/warrior 2. I think your game is suffering from you using a fairly bizarre scale for your commonfolk. Other relevant statblocks from the GMG for your game include:
Prostitute: expert 1/rogue 1
Street Thug: fighter 1/rogue 1
Bandit: warrior 2
Shopkeep: expert 3
Guard: warrior 3
Vagabond: commoner 2/rogue 1
Wanderer: bard 1/rogue 2
Prisoner: expert 4
Barkeep: expert 4/warrior 1
Dealer: expert 1/rogue 3
Guard officer: fighter 4
I think the issue is that you're trying to scare your PCs with a world filled with village idiots wielding firearms.
You actually picked the monk, the class with the best touch AC.
Every other class will lose against that one.
And from some good books I've read on self defense, one from an experienced police officer, it is amazing how low the rate of hitting with firearms is, even at close distance (and that with trained police officers).
Combine that with the in-accuracy of old firearms, and we end up being quite "realistic" with the Pathfinder rules.
Add some "hollywood-hero's luck"...
Give the common folks who have and use firearms a few levels or feats (spending time at the shooting range, hunter, ...) if you want them to be better.
You actually picked the monk, the class with the best touch AC.
Every other class will lose against that one.
There are a few other classes that can get a good touch AC. A dex/int focused Kensai Magus can do pretty good at mid levels.
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I still say exploding dice is the way to go.While I agree that killing the players is one way to make the game feel more dangerous, I'm serious about the ludicrousness of using 1st level commoners.
Cranewings, have you looked at the NPC stat-blocks in the GMG? The only thing that's a commoner 1 is the village idiot. A barmaid is a commoner 2. A beggar is a commoner 1/rogue 1. A drunkard is a commoner 1/warrior 2. I think your game is suffering from you using a fairly bizarre scale for your commonfolk. Other relevant statblocks from the GMG for your game include:
Prostitute: expert 1/rogue 1
Street Thug: fighter 1/rogue 1
Bandit: warrior 2
Shopkeep: expert 3
Guard: warrior 3
Vagabond: commoner 2/rogue 1
Wanderer: bard 1/rogue 2
Prisoner: expert 4
Barkeep: expert 4/warrior 1
Dealer: expert 1/rogue 3
Guard officer: fighter 4I think the issue is that you're trying to scare your PCs with a world filled with village idiots wielding firearms.
Hence the room full of 4 year olds comment I made earlier LoL.
Guns are only scary in the hands of people that can use them...
Use exploding dice with guns. That's what my DM does.
Doesn't that damage the table?
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But what you're missing is that this game is an abstraction, and it's intentionally a wildly unrealistic abstraction designed to allow players to constantly improve and discover new powers. The reason being that this approach makes for very compelling game-play--not because it enhances the storytelling in any way. If you want a game that conforms to a strictly real world interpretation of skill-sets and abilities, Pathfinder is just not the right game for you. What it sounds to me like you're doing is entirely ignoring the game-play in favour of doing away with abstractions that are necessary for game balance, and wondering why the game isn't fun to play.
I agree that NPC stats often make no sense in a real world sense, but if I want to keep gaining new powers and abilities for my characters while also having fun and being challenged while playing, I have to suspend disbelief that the mayor is a 10th-level desk-chair-sitter, and his secretary is an 8th-level typist. What sense is there to leveling up if 1st-level characters of the worst class in the game are still a lethal threat?
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Most NPCs don't have heroic levels because they don't have the motivation to adventure. They do what they can to survive, and their training and life experiences accrue them levels. Or do PCs never gain experience for their non-combat successes?
Tim,the soldier on leave, who's barely in his mid twenties is as likely to hit the deck when he hears a robber shoot into the air as is Clark, the barkeep who's in his late fifties.
Bob the farmer has a family back home he values way more than the orcs attacking the next town over, those orcs are "someone else's problem"
Similarly, the monsters with class levels shown in the bestiary represent the lowliest threat the PCs would normally face.
Of course there is an orc woman with commoner levels tending to the babies back home, of course there is an orc barbarian 4 leading the village back home and of course there is an orc warrior 1/expert 2 being his right hand man.
The world isn't a collection of clones. Everyone has varying levels of skill and experience. It's just rare for an NPC to gain enough experience to keep leveling once the next level is almost twice the amount of experience he has gathered in 30 years of being alive.
A world where everyone is a 1st level commoner is a much stranger world, actually.
As for mechanically? A third level adept doesn't stand much of a chance against a first level wizard...It's the point of NPC classes. It gives the NPCs skills and some amount of combat ability without outshining the PCs. A first level bard is much more interesting than a third level aristocrat. And let's not forget that NPCs use 3 point buy for their ability scores and never gain full hit dice...
By level 2, players outshine most level 4 NPCs all across the board.
to the OP
works for me. believe it or not guns in real combat dont hit that often.
I still say exploding dice is the way to go.This.
Pathfinder isn't a Wild Wild West shoot em up game...if I were your PCs I'd be murdering and pillaging because the amount of money to be made off all the guns laying around would be ludicrous. Kill 10-15 level 1 commoners, take guns, sell them, win. Rinse and repeat until I am a god.
It depends on the setting, I believe he is using Guns Everywhere, this wouldn't be that much of an issue:
No Guns: If you do not want guns in your campaign, simply don’t allow the rules that follow. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game plays perfectly well without them.
Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced firearms, the Gunslinger class, the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and archetypes that use the firearm rules do not exist in this type of campaign. Firearms are treated more like magic items—things of wonder and mystery—rather than like things that are mass-produced. Few know the strange secrets of firearm creation. Only NPCs can take the Gunsmithing feat.
Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline Gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Gunsmithing feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves.
Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.
Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The Gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level.
Most people miss with guns. Movies make them way more deadly than they are. You are more likely to kill yourself, especially with older weapons like muskets.
You are half right.
Guns are not nearly as deadly as portrayed in movies...most gunfights take place at close range, and still involve plentiful missing. This is true even for people trained in shooting, like police officers.
But "you are more likely to kill yourself"? This isn't true, even with muskets. While older guns were more likely to misfire, they seldom blew up unless people drastically misused them. Unless you are incredibly incompetent it's actually pretty damn difficult to kill yourself with your own weapon.
(note that I said "kill", not "shoot"...if you don't pay attention to what you're doing, you can very easily shoot yourself in the foot...but even with an accidental discharge, you are far more likely to hit a bystander than yourself.)
Two aid another actions and that 1st level soldier will have a +6 to hit with his gun/musket/whatever. That's a pretty good chance for three CR 1/3 mooks leagues under the PC's level of 6.
Besides, absurd touch ACs where the staple of D20 modern, and guns worked pretty well there. The problem is that pathfinder guns are weaker than crossbows for a hundred times the cost.
As for guns exploding? It seems it was actually fairly common when guns were new and of shoddy craftmanship while being loaded with guesswork powder charges.
Something that is clearly not the case on the campaign world, as guns are common.
I don't use the GM's guide. I think that the rules in it make for a screwy game world.
Why do NPCs have levels? If the answer you gave was anything other than, "a successful life of deadly violence" then everything the party comes across should have levels. Orcs, goblins, drow, whatever. So instead of coming up against a group of 5 orcs, you come up against a group of 3 orcs and 2 3rd level warrior orcs. This makes it basically impossible for 1st level characters, who are now equated with your village idiot, to survive.
On the other hand, you could say that only goodly races can have levels, or that evil races only have levels on characters that don't cause problems around the PCs. In these cases, why would the party adventure? Shouldn't the 5th level barkeep and 10th level mayor party up to handle business? If they don't, then you need a slew of crappy excuses, "I'm busy saving the world already, or took an arrow to my knee, or am the main man playing many cards, or you need to do...
I find that the simple solution is to start the PCs at level 2 or 3. That way they can handle the challenge of orcs with levels and have starting levels in line with everyone else.
