Just wondering; what do you think comprises the perfect party? How many, what classes, I guess what races, though I tend to think of race as relatively unimportant. For the purpose of discussion, assume 7th level all around, and a "standard" PF set of assumptions - neither low magic nor epic fantasy, just a straight-up, out-of-the box game.
Not looking for the minutae of the builds, just the bare bones. [Of course, if you feel compelled to present full stats, I'll look through 'em... just don't feel obligated.]
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I hear blow causes performance problems; hope it's for the hookers.
Guess that's what I get for failing to specify '...Pathfinder party?'
Though something tells me you wouldn't have changed much... just added 'dice.'
>slowly facepalms, shakes head, sighs<
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What does perfect mean? What's the objective? The most combat effective? The most well rounded? The most survivable? The most versatile?
Also, I would imagine this question could be answered differently depending on the campaign. For instance I'd say the perfect party for Kingmaker, is very different from the perfect party for Skull and shackles, or Carrion Crown. So that plays pretty heavy into it as well. If your game is all about intrigue, stealth, subterfuge and assassinations, the 'perfect' party would be different then a game that is a classic dungeon crawl of killing monsters and taking their stuff.
Just wondering; what do you think comprises the perfect party? How many, what classes, I guess what races, though I tend to think of race as relatively unimportant. For the purpose of discussion, assume 7th level all around, and a "standard" PF set of assumptions - neither low magic nor epic fantasy, just a straight-up, out-of-the box game.
Not looking for the minutae of the builds, just the bare bones. [Of course, if you feel compelled to present full stats, I'll look through 'em... just don't feel obligated.]
assuming core races......
i like an elven alchemist, gnome draconic blooded sorcerer, human fighter,and halfling bard?
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I hear blow causes performance problems; hope it's for the hookers.
Guess that's what I get for failing to specify '...Pathfinder party?'
Though something tells me you wouldn't have changed much... just added 'dice.'
>slowly facepalms, shakes head, sighs<
Eh, I used to play D&D with strippers when I was selling blow. :-)
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Dwarf Spellkiller Inquisitor, First-World Summoner, Arcane Duelist Bard, Holy Tactician/Oath Against the Wyrm Paladin.
Why?
First of all, every party member has some form of moderate healing ability. This isn't necessary by any means, but is amazingly convenient. The Inquisitor is a spellcaster's worst nightmare, and gets some pretty darned amazing saves, and is eventually entirely immune to a single school of magic. The summoner is the ultimate skill-monkey, with party buffs, an eidolon for support, and the ability to summon up loads of helpful natural allies (and the expanded Summon Nature's Ally list is NICE). The bard is amazing in the support department, and as an arcane duelist he can hold his own in melee or ranged combat as well. The paladin is self maintaining, gets access to some great spells, and his Challenge affects summoned creatures as well. Oh, and the best thing is that bonuses from the different classes can stack.
Everyone has some form of maintainable survivability that can be augmented by buffs and spells as well (Lay-on-Hands, Eidolon Shield, Wall of Summoned Creatures, through-the-roof saves, spell buffs [mirror image, blur, etc.], etc.). Oh, and with the great number of skills distributed through they party, they'll pretty much be ready for anything.
*Edit: Darn, Holy Tactician and Oath Against the Wyrm don't stack. Well, it was worth a shot :P
Heck, you don't even have to worry about people not liking your eidolon, because it's a Fey creature, which most people wouldn't have as much of a problem with.
The one which is socially optimal for the players which is impossible to determine by voting.
Did something similar to this here...
Basically looking to optimize a party that was only really planning on going up to level 6, though now it looks like it'll eventually be 12. We don't have a great deal of healing but the truth is, we rarely need it... if we were to add a 5th character it would probably be a Cleric though.
Human Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Str - 16 (+2 racial bonus)
Dex - 12
Con - 13 (+1 at 4th level)
Int - 10
Wis - 10
Cha - 16
Feats:
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Extra Lay on Hands
Human Fighter (Pole-Arm Master)
Str - 17 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th level)
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 13
Wis - 13
Cha - 7
Feats:
Human - Dodge
1st - Mobility
1st - Combat Expertise
2nd - Weapon Focus: Guisarme
3rd - Combat Reflexes
4th - Spring Atack, (retrain Weapon Focus to Whirlwind Attack)
5th - Improved Trip
6th - Greater Trip
7th - Weapon Focus: Guisarme
Halfling Summoner (Master Summoner)
Str - 10 (-2 racial bonus)
Dex - 14 (+2 racial bonus)
Con - 12
Int - 13
Wis - 12
Cha - 17 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th level)
Feats:
1st - Extra Summons
2nd - Augmented Summoning
3rd - Superior Summoning
5th - Improved Initiative
7th - Extra Summons
Eidolon designed as a small scout/rogue using Skilled evolutions (Stealth, Perception, Disable Device, UMD).
Human Monk (Zen Archer, Vow of Truth)
Str - 14
Dex - 15 (+1 at 4th level)
Con - 14
Int - 10
Wis - 16 (+2 racial bonus)
Cha - 8
Feats:
1st - Improved Initiative
1st - Skill Focus: Sense Motive
1st - Improved Unarmed Strike
1st - Precise Shot
1st - Perfect Strike (Special)
2nd - Weapon Focus: Longbow
2nd - Point-Blank Shot
3rd - Point-Blank Master
3rd - Snake Style
5th - Deadly Aim
6th - Weapon Specialization: Longbow
6th - Improved Precise Shot
7th - Clustered Shots
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I'm going to go with whatever people feel like playing. Iterate until characters stop dying regularly.
I joined a party and rolled up an elven wizard because I thought the party needed an arcane utility caster. Hated it. Fortunately the wizard's soul got eaten ("Ow! My hopes and dreams!"), I rolled up a melee class (just like pretty much everyone else in the party) and have been having a blast smashing the crap out of things ever since.
I'm going to go with whatever people feel like playing. Iterate until characters stop dying regularly.
I joined a party and rolled up an elven wizard because I thought the party needed an arcane utility caster. Hated it. Fortunately the wizard's soul got eaten ("Ow! My hopes and dreams!"), I rolled up a melee class (just like pretty much everyone else in the party) and have been having a blast smashing the crap out of things ever since.
I will say that I'm not generally a fan of 'party balance' as a necessity. Sure, its great if you have it, but I'd hate for any player to feel like a slave to it. 'What's the party need' is something I discourage new players from taking into account.
Now we tend to write our own campaigns and adventures, but some of the best play we've ever had was an entire group of Rogues or Rogue multi-class characters. We also had a party that was all fighters, squad-members of an army that had gotten scattered far from home. In such circumstances its things like attributes, skill selection, traits and actual role-play that let you stand out from the pack rather than class features.
Spirit Ranger, Inquisitor, Archeologist Bard, and a Magus. All of the characters can cast spells and fight and have decent skills. You also have a good mix of ranged and melee.
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Sometimes non-optimal is the most fun to play. Ever end up at a PFS table with all clerics or all fighter types or (gasp) all bards???
The fun is in the difficult circumstances and creative problem solving that not having a nice spread of classes causes.
All bards ...Yeah!!!
Barbarian, cleric, wizard, summoner.
The barbarian could be switched with an oath of vengeance paladin and the summoner could be switched for a ranger.
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Difficult to say, and some of the people above gave very interesting advice. Not stuff I'd have thought of, which is why I went back and thought " huh, clever..." and had to rethink my own advice.
First things first: Summoner. Go for it. Master Summoner might actually be ideal, but both it and usual summoner are actually pretty strong candidates. They create a wall of NPCs between you and your enemies that make attacks and prevent the enemies from easily focusing on your party. And at the same time that you have moderately good damage sponges and fighters that don't actually matter since they're just summons, you can also act as a marginally good arcane spellcaster, having access to a lot of good battlefield control spells like Grease and Glitterdust and Black Tentacles. If you go with a Classic Summoner, go Half-Elf for the always-necessary extra evolution points which you can so fantastically abuse. If not, human might be a great bet because nothing beats that extra feat (sometimes).
Clerics are another good thing to have, since they can heal in a wave as well as with a touch. Good aligned clerics are ideal, as evil-aligned kind of defeats the point (not that you can't do it, but its a bit of a selfish move). Good spellcasters, semi-good combatants, but effectively a team healer and team buff if things get dicey, which, if all goes well, they rarely will. Be an Aasimar if your GM/DM allows, since the Wisdom and Charisma bonuses are right up your alley, and Darkvision and early-level resistance are nothing to sneeze at.
A character to be a skill monkey or face is also good. However, this class choice can be up to the players. From what I've seen above, the only definitive "must have" in the "perfect party" is SOME skill class, and no single particular skill class. And i agree. Depending on how you play it, any of those classes can serve as a skill monkey or party face.
At the end of the day, though, the BEST party is a party with common goals, who each have fun playing their class, and can be usually relied upon to show up to meetings. Everything beyond that is just so much added hoopla.
Striker, Striker, Leader, Controller
I'm going to go with whatever people feel like playing. Iterate until characters stop dying regularly.I will say that I'm not generally a fan of 'party balance' as a necessity. Sure, its great if you have it, but I'd hate for any player to feel like a slave to it. 'What's the party need' is something I discourage new players from taking into account.
Number One rule should be what the players want/like to play, because boredom and indifference will kill a campaign faster than any villian can get a TPK.
But an overlooked component of 'party balance' is that you don't have two or three players trying to share the spotlight at any given time. With a balanced party, the druid will shine in the wilderness, the bard in the city, the rogue robbing the tomb. If they all built similar fighters, they are all trying to get screen time at the same point. YMMV.
Sometimes non-optimal is the most fun to play.
Agreed
Hookers, blow, vodka, hookers and ice.
^For the win. No, really.
Two casters that can cast Ray of Exhaustion and later Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion.
One Melee for blocking.
One Secondary Caster or Ranged that maybe has an Animal Companion for blocking and that is expendable.
Thanks to all; I realize that 'perfect' is actually a relative term. Was just interested in seeing the variance across the board as to what that would mean to different people.
Tank. One who can act as back-up healer and esp heal himself= Paladin
Party-buffer, healer. Cleric or Oracle.
Skill-monkey: rogue, something with darkvision. If there aren't going to be a lot of magic traps, then Ranger, but then Human for the SkP.
Spellcaster: wizard.
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Just wondering; what do you think comprises the perfect party? How many, what classes, I guess what races, though I tend to think of race as relatively unimportant. For the purpose of discussion, assume 7th level all around, and a "standard" PF set of assumptions - neither low magic nor epic fantasy, just a straight-up, out-of-the box game.
Minimum?
Fighter
Witch
Bard
Ranger
You've got two front-liners, two healers, and some pretty decent arcane casting. If you expect traps, give the Ranger an archetype that gives trapfinding. They should be able to handle pretty much anything, especially if you have everyone max Stealth (and get the Highlander trait if they don't have it as a class skill).
Add a Cleric, Wizard, or both and the opposition is hamburger.
master summoner, archer bard, destruction cleric, bomber alchemist, and conjuration wizard. That or a destruction cleric and four paladins. All of them have fey foundling.
And a PS to whoever moved this thread.
I wasn't asking for advice, I was looking for a discussion about opinions on the perfect party.
Just sayin', yer omnipotence.
5-6 people.
A melee person who can take a swing without crumpling.
sword/board fighter, sword/board paladin, sword/board cleric.
all are pretty solid in that regard. (not familiar with cavalier or inq so not sure if either can do that.)
You need some arcane casters. Preferably not a specialist but someone with a little blast, a little battle field control, and a little utility.
A wizard is really good for this. Witch I'll save for later :P
Sorcs can be good with tons of scrolls or wands.
You need a bard. Bards are both the party face and the penultimate party buffers. I just love 'em. A classic bard with no archtypes is good. (them being an archer is double good.)
You need a divine caster of some sort. If the cleric is the meat shield he can also do pretty decently here, as mainly what you need are some buffs and channel energy for healing. Preferably though you'd want a full on caster cleric or druid doing this role..
Your 5th spot to me would be:
if you think you have an inadequacy in the above, you can use this to fill it out. have a barbarian in stead of a meat shield? A melee ranger can help take the load. Have a sorceror instead of a wizard? Bring a witch along and have them choose separate spells. Have a druid but they want to be melee? Bring an oracle along, they can help take up the slack.
the 6th spot would be more of the 5th. Shore up the party weaknesses. Look for things your group can't do, and find someone who can do it. Alternatively, copy a role. Bring in another heavy hitter (melee or ranged.
-S
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Four players that synergize and strategize well together, playing whatever the heck they feel like playing.
This all the way