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Wow, he has a lot of blank demonslayer boons signed by Todd Morgan - #8596. Seems to me someone needs to talk to Todd Morgan, because either he is signing a ton of blank sheets and leaving them to be snatched up, or the person selling these IS Todd Morgan. OR - because the GM's number is clear - Paizo can directly deal with it.
Any Venture Captains near Racine, WI who know this guy?
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Wow, he has a lot of blank demonslayer boons signed by Todd Morgan - #8596. Seems to me someone needs to talk to Todd Morgan, because either he is signing a ton of blank sheets
Most boons can be photocopied (black and white) and if the judge uses color ink, color photocopied. If they're selling for $15-50, they're making money and can even keep the original for themselves.
What suggestions do you have? You can't say it needs to be done differently without offering suggestions.
When handing them out, the player number should also be written in color ink. Leave the character number blank. I know this is probably inconvenient, but that's what you'd have to do to put more control on it.
There are obviously ways around this, but it makes it a lot more difficult. There are probably other (simple) ways to make it more difficult and hopefully we get some suggestions.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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And what about those cases where say a husband gets a race boon, but has no interest in playing that race, but his wife would like to. If his number is on it, she can't use it. There are legit reasons for giving away/trading boons. I know it sucks that some people want to be greedy and sell things they shouldn't on ebay, but either let them and look down on them, or you prevent anyone from giving them away.
I hate to defend him, but if he legally got that many demonslayer boons, maybe he doesn't have that many characters or doesn't figure he'd ever use them (mainly spellcasters?) He could see it as a way to recoup expenses from going to the convention. If you win a something as a door prize that you don't like/don't care about, you might consider selling it. Some might see boons as the say way.
One way to prevent copying boons might be to only release them on special watermarked paper.
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Well, boons shouldn't really be signed without a PFS number being filled in. I know this isn't always practical at a large con, but in general, selling someone's signature is pretty close to forgery. If I found a player with one, I would ask them to verify that they were at said convention, and if they weren't, I would confiscate the boon or rule the character illegal to play (at the player's option).
Giving or trading boons is fine - I've seen a player give his free raise dead boon to a new player who got killed, and it's a classy thing to do.
The boons are generally sent electronically, and provided to the V-C's to handle using their own discretion. That discretion doesn't extend to whoever gets ahold of them afterwards.
EDIT: Ninja'd but the source, who took them down - a good call, sir.
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It is heavily frowned upon to sell these boons. I provide them as a way to boost support to a con. At this time, there isn't much I can do about it. If it becomes a rampant problem, then we will reevaluate. This is similar to someone who wins a autographed book at a con and then puts it up for auction. Once it is in the person's possession, it is their property to do with as they wish. But, selling free boons doesn't sit well with me. It is the reason I don't make these boons better than they currently are. I can't tell you no to sell them. But, I would ask you to use some judgement and restraint in the matter as this kind of thing greatly disappoints me. Thanks to the seller for removing them.
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If I found a player with one, I would ask them to verify that they were at said convention, and if they weren't, I would confiscate the boon or rule the character illegal to play (at the player's option).
Giving or trading boons is fine
I understand why you would feel like confiscation as the right answer. But you have to ask why and under what authority would that be "Pathfinder legal"? There isn't anything in the rules about only having boons that were given at cons, gamedays, etc. that you have physically attended.
And I haven't seen anything in the players guide about not only bringing your chronicles and boons but bringing verification that you attended those events.
This would totally invalidate any verication of the attending the events.
My arguement with you is done now. Because except for the "Pathfinder legal" point the eBay issue (selling boons etc.) has the potential of doing real damage to our game. Everyone at Paizo, including everyone associated, are doing a Cracker Jack job of preventing cheating and abuse. I believe there really is a small minority of people who do cheat and abuse the game, but when they do our game is dimished for everyone.
Other Living Campaigns were destroyed by people spending real money for in game benefits that no one else had. None of us want to happen to PFS.
+1 to you badcall for pulling the ad and for being a stand up kind of guy by posting like you did!
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Other Living Campaigns were destroyed by people spending real money for in game benefits that no one else had. None of us want to happen to PFS.
+1 to you badcall for pulling the ad and for being a stand up kind of guy by posting like you did!
+1 to both.
Also, I generally agree that trading/giving away boons is fine. I have an extra Trengu boon I don't think I'll ever use but I'm holding onto for the day I might be able to trade it for a race I do want. I might recommend appropriate documentation akin to the kind used back in the day of magic item certificates (Putting "Player Name, Character Name, PFS # traded to Player Name, Character Name, PFS # on X Date w/ Signatures or Initials" on the back of the chronicle.)
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You are going to ask someone to prove they went to a con?
Really?
Well I guess that screws me over since I always pay cash at the door for a con badge and hand cash to whatever friend I share a room with. How many cons do you really think hold records of which ones you attended and allow you to show to someone like you online? Are you going to pay for the hotel wifi fee for me to get online to show it to you? Or do you expect us to carry receipts of all our cons, for who knows how many years before we scratch iff the one time benifit or play the pc with a life long boon. How are you going to tell those receipts are not faked?
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The problem with putting a name or number on the sheet is that you prevent good-natured trading. Maybe I got two Demonslayers and my friend got two Devilslayers. Seems to me like a trade could be in order. I think any who were at the con can attest to the security and the method used in distributing the boons. I don't think anything needs to be done to change the way they are handled, players should just know that they can't do this sort of thing.
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Deidre: It's already established that boons are fungible commodities; changing that would require a significant policy change in PFS...and I'm not sure that a few things like this, which are already handled by telling players "Bad form, dude." needs a more rigorous sanction against it.
Every time a regulation is made like that, enforcing it consumes time that could otherwise be used by the developers to make new adventures, come up with cool plots and otherwise make the Society play grow in other ways.
Personally, what I'd recommend is this:
First, alter the boons so that there are two signature lines. The first signature line is the date the boon was issued. The second signature line was the date the boon was applied to a character.
Boons expire after, oh, 120 days - one third of a season. Boons given at PaizoCon, GenCon or Origins have a longer expiration date and are printed on a different color of paper.
Paizo can set up a PFS-boon marketplace on their web site where people can buy and sell boons a'la eBay, and take a cut of the sales. Auction scripts are cheap and reasonably easy to set up, and Paizo already has payer information.
This should also give statistics that give the average price for each 'boon' - in addition to keeping price inflation in check, this gives the developers feedback on what boons are considered more or less valuable by the player base.
What about people who sell boons who don't mail them to the customer? Complain to Paizo, Paizo collects complaints, enough complaints ban you from PFS, and Paizo acts as the broker for the funding through their eCommerce site.
It's probably a TRIVIAL amount of money for Paizo, but it should be enough to help fund other PFS or website enhancements.
Like most things dealing with commerce, the trick isn't to say "Bad Abadaran! Bad!", it's to make sure that everything is handled through a reasonable channel of control.
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Like Mike Brock, something about selling boons doesn't sit well with me. As I've said in other posts, I don't condone it and am really glad that the seller took them down from their eBay account. I am also not in favor of creating a new rule or limitation every time someone does something they shouldn't. Sure, we can put it in the guide "No Selling Boons" but come on people, should that really be necessary each time? Can't we just let the community as a whole regulate themselves in this instance? As you can see, it worked well in this case. In cases where it doesn't work, well, shame on whomever decides to take advantage of the generosity of the PFS Campaign Coordinator who takes time out to make these boons available to the general masses through local conventions. Remember people, these boons are one of the ways we can draw more players to local conventions. If Mike decides that too many people are abusing them, we can lose these boons quicker than it took Paizo to create them.
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It is heavily frowned upon to sell these boons. I provide them as a way to boost support to a con. At this time, there isn't much I can do about it. If it becomes a rampant problem, then we will reevaluate. This is similar to someone who wins a autographed book at a con and then puts it up for auction. Once it is in the person's possession, it is their property to do with as they wish. But, selling free boons doesn't sit well with me. It is the reason I don't make these boons better than they currently are. I can't tell you ou to to sell them. But, I would ask you to use some judgement and restrin in the matter as this kind of thing greatly disappoints me. Thanks to the seller for removing them.
Still loving that APG! Thanks again!
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This would totally invalidate any verication of the attending the events.
My arguement with you is done now. Because except for the "Pathfinder legal" point the eBay issue (selling boons etc.) has the potential of doing real damage to our game. Everyone at Paizo, including everyone associated, are doing a Cracker Jack job of preventing cheating and abuse. I believe there really is a small minority of people who do cheat and abuse the game, but when they do our game is dimished for everyone.
Other Living Campaigns were destroyed by people spending real money for in game benefits that no one else had. None of us want to happen to PFS.
+1 to you badcall for pulling the ad and for being a stand up kind of guy by posting like you did!
Im not sure if the above was supposed to be a compliment or an insult as people use the term cracker jack in different ways.
I initially took it as a negative but thought it might have been meant as a positive.
If a negative connotation was meant, One of my pet peeves and something very frustrating is when someone throws out a comment and doesn't offer any examples or solutions. It's hard for me to look at, address, and fix our cracker jack job when I'm unaware of what is going on.
If it was a positive, then thank you.
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To clarify my comment on proof: I meant if one of my regular group showed up with a boon from a convention that is very far away, but said boon had been found for sale on e-bay, I'd ask them about it.
Of course, at another con where I don't know the players, such would be impractical - no one brings (or should have to bring) proof that they attended this or that event. The point it, these specific item was available on ebay, and I know it - so if one of my local group showed up with one, I'd ask them to their face if they bought it or not.
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Everyone at Paizo, including everyone associated, are doing a Cracker Jack job of preventing cheating and abuse. I believe there really is a small minority of people who do cheat and abuse the game, but when they do our game is dimished for everyone.
I definitly meant it as a very high compliment!
Slang
crack·er·jack/ˈkrakərˌjak/Adjective:
Exceptionally good.Noun:
An exceptionally good person or thing.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have a couple of boons that I'm unlikely to use. It's likely that I'll give them away to a player at a table whose playstyle I want to recognize and encourage. Let's not make rules that would make it difficult for me to do that.
We have what we need: a community that approves of boons, of any stripe, being given and traded, but disapproves of them being bought and sold for money.
People get those boons at conventions. So it's likely that anyone putting a boon up for sale has encountered the Pathfinder Society community.
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As I said before, I'm not familiar with boons at all. The only boons I've ever encountered were on a Chronicle Sheet giving XP for a scenario. Therefore, I didn't realize it was OK for them to be traded. I thought they were more akin to PFS Chronicle Sheets, which should not be traded or sold for any reason, in my opinion.
What I want to know is, if a player mentions or brags about having bought a boon from someone, should I, if the GM, allow it?
I personally find doing that distasteful, but if there is not a rule against it, I cannot tell the person anything other than my personal opinion of their actions - same as when I tell people I find them illegally downloading and trading Paizo material reprehensible.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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What I want to know is, if a player mentions or brags about having bought a boon from someone, should I, if the GM, allow it? I personally find doing that distasteful, but if there is not a rule against it, I cannot tell the person anything other than my personal opinion of their actions - same as when I tell people I find them illegally downloading and trading Paizo material reprehensible.
If they've bought it, yes. If they've downloaded it, no. That isn't just reprehensible; it's illegal, and we don't cotton to that kind of stuff 'round here.
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As I said before, I'm not familiar with boons at all. The only boons I've ever encountered were on a Chronicle Sheet giving XP for a scenario. Therefore, I didn't realize it was OK for them to be traded. I thought they were more akin to PFS Chronicle Sheets, which should not be traded or sold for any reason, in my opinion.
With that in mind perhaps next time you'll look into it more before passing judgement and potentially dragging someone's name through the mud :P
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To be honest, this is another reminder as to why we as GM's, Coordinators and VL and VC's need to sheet check a little more often. I understand we have to trust our players, but our players can do some really dirty stuff. I agree with at least putting the player's Paizo number on the master copy to prevent copies, but there is only so much we can do.
Legally, there is nothing anyone at Paizo can do about it. Magic The Gathering players re-sell the cards they win, trade or earn all the time. It's their possessions, they can do what they want. If they want to make fakes and sell them on the internet, they can. We just have to let our fans and players know, don't EVER spend any money on chronicle sheets that you get for free. It's dumb and not worth it.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4
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Mike Brock,
Just FYI, my late father (who would be about 85 were he still alive) used to use the phrase "doing a cracker jack job of taking care of that" back in the early '70's. I actually suspect it hearkens back to the late '40's or '50's.
Its old, yet complimentary, slang. Nothing derogatory.
And the term "I don't cotton to that" is just as old..
Why not just make the paper the boon is printed on into a two-sided document. One side is the boon and the other side has a section where the GM/Coordinator can list the player's name and PFS number, name of event where it was earned and the date, and a place to sign. This way the front is still blank so that the boon can be traded or given away. There should also be enough room on the back to note this as well, if it happens. I would require a GM be present when any boons are exchanged, but I can see that limiting some otherwise valid trades or gifts.
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It's already too late for people wanting to spend real money to gain a benefit in the game. Paizo shirts are a clear violator of this. A free reroll per session is pretty damn good, at the low low cost of $25 + shipping.
Or buying a Tales book and using that to gain a boon.
Or simply buying a PDF or book with that most people don't have for an item, feat, or trait.
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While I'm a strong advocate of clear and detailed rules in regards to mechanical issues, I don't think they are appropriate for defining the social contract. Instead what we have here seems perfectly fine:
Random Player: Boon for sale!
Paizo: Don't sell your boons, it makes us sad.
Almost everybody: okay, but can I give mine to the awesome kid or trade it for a different one?
Paizo: Sure, but we're wary of how to answer this question since we're scared that any specific codified answer will open the floodgates or make illegal perfectly reasonable behavior.
This is the sort of situation that doesn't need, and wouldn't benefit, from a clearly defined rule.
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Just to play Devil's Advocate. . . .
What exactly is the thing that "doesn't sit well" with selling boons that a person got for use in PFS?
1) Is it the issue that Paizo created something for free that someone else is making money on?
2) Is it the "impurity in allowing the pocketbook" to affect PFS play?
3) Is it that the boon should be TIED TO YOU AND ONLY YOU when you get it?
4) Is it because of a fear that since boons can be easily duplicated (and aren't tracked) that they will be photocopied and distributed?
5) Is it because the person who buys it isn't the person we want to reward?
Perhaps answering why can explain how to address the issue, if one exists.
Rubia
For me it's #1 and #5.
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Just to play Devil's Advocate. . . .
What exactly is the thing that "doesn't sit well" with selling boons that a person got for use in PFS?
1) Is it the issue that Paizo created something for free that someone else is making money on?
2) Is it the "impurity in allowing the pocketbook" to affect PFS play?
3) Is it that the boon should be TIED TO YOU AND ONLY YOU when you get it?
4) Is it because of a fear that since boons can be easily duplicated (and aren't tracked) that they will be photocopied and distributed?
5) Is it because the person who buys it isn't the person we want to reward?
Perhaps answering why can explain how to address the issue, if one exists.
Rubia
1 and 5 for me as well
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1) Is it the issue that Paizo created something for free that someone else is making money on?
This
2) Is it the "impurity in allowing the pocketbook" to affect PFS play?
and this
4) Is it because of a fear that since boons can be easily duplicated (and aren't tracked) that they will be photocopied and distributed?
a small bit of this
5) Is it because the person who buys it isn't the person we want to reward?
and this
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I think it's a bit premature to call for a major reworking of policy based on one event that the seller has owned up to and taken down once he realised the concerns given and he was not being fraudlent in the first place.
Problem is solved, we can chill.
*tongue in cheek*
NO! We should find them, drag them out of their home, and tar & feather them in good ol' American fashion. To make sure we're being thorough, do the same to their family!-Froth's at mouth in generic geeky rage-
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Just a thought.
In old LG days (year 1 I think) I saw an "Cert" in the charity acution at the CON... go bid on it, if you win it you got some fancy thing (I forget what it was now). It was for a good cause (abused woman shelter I think), and it was not 20 certs, just one... I never did figure out how I felt about it. Not sure how I'd feel now...
But every time "Buying Boons" comes up I think about this.They dropped the practice later - or at least I never saw them auction certs again.
They dropped it.
Charity-auction certs were a not-uncommon thing at conventions which featured RPGA play in the 1990s and early 2000s (especially before 2002, when the RPGA was still a paid-membership organization). I used to play Living Force (the RPGA's Star Wars campaign), and my character has a unique certed starfighter which came from such an auction (I wasn't the one who bought it at auction -- it was given to me by a friend).
About 5-8 years ago, the RPGA decided that, despite the fact that the charity auctions were for good causes, they didn't like the entire idea of selling off certs, and so, they stopped the practice entirely.