How long is too long to dangle a plot-turning BBEG? I'm running a homebrew campaign which features 2 "background" NPC villains. Now that everyone's got the hang of the game and we've gotten the party to 5th level I've put them directly on the trail of the lesser of 2 evils and everyone's amped to finally put her out of commission.
Only problem is; I'm toying with the idea of having her follow Mr Miagi's famous advice: the best defense is NO be there.
Details: my players and I have been at this campaign the better part of the last year, which started at 1st level. The very first adventure this particular NPC was released by mistake and she's been linked to a couple terrible happenings since. The party currently consists of a Barbarian, a Rogue with a 2HD barghest wannabe pet, a Paladin/Ranger focusing on the destruction of undead and a Wizard(Necromancy)/Cleric(Death, Law) who has a 4HD Skeletal Champion as a controlled minion.
Finally the villain in question is a mid-level Cleric/Wizard that is also a ghoul and I've converted the Spellstitched template from 3.5 so she has some decent spell-like abilities. She's a mastermind type who has surrounded herself with insulating layers of spies/minions and is HIGHLY intellegent. So, since she is actually behind getting the party to come after her the question stands...should she be there at the end for the final fight? How long is TOO long for my party to wait?
How does a necromancer exist in a party with an anti undead paladin?
How long is TOO long for my party to wait?My advice is not to script it too much, but rather have the NPCs 'live' in your world rather than be story objects for the PCs. It adds a level verisimilitude to the game imho,
James
I concur. That's why, for an undead, she's done a lot of "living". She busted out of her prison in the first story, slew a bunch o' monks (brewers, monastic clerics, not the karate choppers) and turned them all into lesser ghouls to plague a nearby town and steal a minor artifact, and most recently she infected the PC's home base and their fave NPC with terminal illness as a distraction to let her infiltrate the settlement.
They've met her once, killed her second in command having just missed her at the monastery, and now suspect that she's masquarading in their home turf even though all signs point to her having kidnapped a prominent NPC and absconded with him to a nearby "Spooky Castle". So, I come back to my original point; when is enough enough?
I've used recurring villains before w/other gaming groups, but usually over the course of 3-5 adventures. So far these particular players have met around the table for months and I sense their frustration. But then, if she LAID this particular cat's paw, why would she be foolish enough to be there at the end? If by virtue of her intellegence I make her a Dr Doom that never REALLY gets taken out, do you think my players will revolt?
How does a necromancer exist in a party with an anti undead paladin?
SUCH a long story, made longer by the fact that said paladin says he detected evil but no one at the table ever remembered it happening.
There've been A LOT of blind eyes, then a lot of subtrefuge on the part of the cleric (who is evil BTW) and finally just a lot of denial on all our parts. However, I've finally stopped being a lazy DM and made some threats of excommunication whereupon said paladin specifically kept an eye on said necromancer in the last game. When a zombie was raised on the sly behind some convenient cover the paladin carved the thing in half with the help of the barbarian before it shambled it's first step.
In other words, in the spirit of Christmas, our paladin is starting to BELIEVE.
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*Poof!* <Invisible villain warps in for a surprise visit>
<taunting voice> "Hello, boys! ...Somebody wants to see you; and are they pissed! Hahaha-haah!"
*Poof!* <villain warps out>
The paladin's eyes glow blue; he feels suddenly weak, and needs Atonement as his deity shuns him. He becomes neutral alignment.
A Star Archon summoned off a powerful McGuffin artifact and brought along by the villain while also Invisible, now appears as it begins destroying evil things in the party (it possesses True Seeing and Detect Evil at will) -- starting with the lowest CR so as to eliminate them quickly (the skeletal champion and the barghest: the archon's powerful attacks splatter them in one hit each).
The Archon will demand evil intelligent creatures "bow before the righteous" each round as a free action (not an Intimidation check, as PCs must have "free will" in this regard). If the necromancer surrenders, his eyes briefly glow blue and he is converted to a neutral alignment not adjacent to his evil deity's, and needs Atonement on the cleric side as his deity abandons him.
(In the impossibly unlikely event that 5th-level PCs manage to kill a CR19 Star Archon, it explodes causing 50pts (half Fire/half Holy) to everything in a 100ft burst, and reincarnates 1d4 rounds later as an advanced shield archon.)
-- At the end of the brief but spectacular encounter, two side-kicks are toast and two PCs need Atonement.
If the PCs ask the archon why it didn't attack the villain, it simply shrugs and informs them that he can't do that as a summoned creature. "But I have other ways of punishing her...."
= = = = =
Before disappearing, the archon offers a boon: a one-time offer for either...
A) the paladin/ranger to become evil, or the wizard/cleric or to become good. In the case of the paladin/ranger, he must exchange paladin levels for anti-paladin, and choose Favored Enemy Good-Outsider; in the case of the wizard/cleric, he must select a new good-aligned deity with new domains, and make Necromany his forbidden wizard class.
B) both characters become lawful/good (rebuild per above for cleric/wizard, and the paladin/ranger may adjust paladin and ranger archetypes -- he must also exchange his Charisma score with any other ability score which is higher.
-- If a PC accepts the boon, Atonement is waived. If neither PC takes the offer then any Atonements both undertake will automatically fail (forfeiting any gold spent securing them) as soon as A) both have Atonement and B) they attempt to adventure together again. The deities will be watching these two for sincerity.
If the good archon is asked how he could make a mortal evil, he merely shrugs, "I am not making you evil; I am merely stripping away layers of deceit to reveal you to be as you really are -- it is you who have made the choice, after all."
= = = = =
In the event both PCs elect for choice B), the archon is pleased, and dispenses further boons:
To the cleric/wizard: "The designation Mystic Theurge will be available to you earlier than otherwise should you seek it, and you will be favored in it." (The PC qualifies one level earlier than normal, and both treats it as a favored-class, and chooses one class feature of either cleric or wizard to continue advancing with it. He may adjust INT and WIS scores on a point-buy equivalency.)
To the paladin/ranger, he declares in a booming voice: "Evil is thy sworn foe, and thou art prepared for it!" (The PC gains Quick Draw with any good-aligned weapon, and can Detect Evil as a swift action. The armor-check penalty and maximum Dexterity bonus of mithral armor are more favorable by one point each for him. Knowledge[Planes] becomes a class skill. He may increase mental stat scores at a point-buy ratio equivalent expense to physical stats, and increase ranks in Diplomacy, Knowledge:Plains, and Sense Motive at the expense of other skills.)
The archon shifts his gaze to the barbarian, and his eyes briefly glow blue. The barbarian's alignment changes to either Neutral-Good or Chaotic-Good. His wisdom score raises to 12 (if it is not equal or higher already); and one character level is exchanged for Cleric[Crusader] (this also grants a feat) in a deity of identical alignment. He may increase mental stat scores at a point-buy ratio equivalent expense to physical stats. His main weapon transmorph's into an adamantine version of the deity's favored weapon, and becomes Blessed (Blessed may be upgraded to Holy as a +1 equivalent). He gains the feat Panther Style without needing prerequisites, and substitutes the rage power Quick Reflexes for Combat Reflexes should he pursue the style chain.
He then stares at the rogue, shakes his head and sighs, and is lost in thought for a moment. He then chuckles to himself, and a celestial badger (medium) appears beside the rogue if he is small-sized, or a celestial wolf (large) if he is medium-sized. "I can teach you to ride it," he says with a wry grin. "Do you accept?" If the rogue accepts, two of his character levels are converted to Cavalier[Gendarme][Order of the Blue Rose] (he gains Mounted Combat with Gendarme and his 3rd-level general-slot feat is changed to Boon Companion). He may increase any stat scores in a point-buy ratio equivalent expense to other initially higher stats. His primary weapon (or Amulet of Might Fists, if he has one) briefly glows blue, and acquires the Merciful enhancement (+1 will have to be purchased normally before any other enhancements if the weapon is not magical already). The mount gains a military saddle, masterwork reins (Ride+2) and elven chain barding.
= = = = =
At some point, the PCs may inquire how it is that a summoned creature can bestow such benefits.
Replies the archon in a thundering voice: "I AM AN AVATAR OF THE GODS; THROUGH ME THEIR WILL IS MANIFEST! (All PCs gain the Shakened condition for 1d3 rounds, no save) "DO YOU DOUBT THEIR JUDGMENT IN FAVORING YOU? FOR GIVING YOU MORE CHANCES TO REDEEM YOURSELVES THAN ANY OTHER MORTALS I HAVE EVER FACED?"
= = = = =
After all boons are bestowed, "And now, your Redemption is at hand, as it that aforementioned 'other way' I may punish she who summoned me -- would you like to be teleported to her location now? ...she overlooked that I could that."
Before the PCs can answer the question....
*Poof!*
....and they face the newly more powerful lich and her minions on their home ground.
= = = = =
Good should be as awesome -- and as feared -- as Evil in your campaign.
Actions have consequences; and the Gods are watching.
How does a necromancer exist in a party with an anti undead paladin?SUCH a long story, made longer by the fact that said paladin says he detected evil but no one at the table ever remembered it happening.
There've been A LOT of blind eyes, then a lot of subtrefuge on the part of the cleric (who is evil BTW) and finally just a lot of denial on all our parts. However, I've finally stopped being a lazy DM and made some threats of excommunication whereupon said paladin specifically kept an eye on said necromancer in the last game. When a zombie was raised on the sly behind some convenient cover the paladin carved the thing in half with the help of the barbarian before it shambled it's first step.
In other words, in the spirit of Christmas, our paladin is starting to BELIEVE.
Well, this will be interesting then :-)
With paladins, especially those focused on destroying undead, it's pretty clear: Unless it is a temporary alliance to destroy a greater evil - which it does not really sound like - he will have to change his actions, atone, or fall.
I mean, having an undead minion in the party should be somewhat of a truly revolting eyesore to him...
Wow. How long to kill a villain? I get the "blow up the party" response.
@ Mike: I would feel terrible doing that to them. For one its overkill, and for another its a total Railroad on many levels. I've told the players from the start that this game is as much for them as it has been for me and in that vein I LET them make these characters.
Now yes; I have a plan to "force" the paladin to deal with the undead elephant in the room. It will be less spectacular than what you're proposing though. Bottom line; if these guys want to be good OR evil that's up to them.
At the risk of all my players knowing what's going on, here's what's going on: BBEL has magic jarred into the new wife of the NPC they're currently hunting for. Said new wife is also the town herbalist; BBEL has used an herbal "cure" from last adventure to implant a necrotic cyst into several townsfolk, including her own "husband". She then put him in peril (he's the local goody 2 shoes cleric you know) but a rival priestess, who the party thinks is evil, stepped in at the 0 hour and saved him. Said priestess is LN and the faith venerates among others impressive artisans (goody 2 shoes cleric NPC is ALSO a phenomenal weapon/armor smith).
Sooo... BBEL had intended to have her minions jump the hubby, send him to the spooky castle to get sacrificed and sned the party to go "save" him. Whether he lives or dies is of no consequence (see: "Necrotic Cyst" above) but she's using the party to go clear the dungeon of her rival BBEG so she doesn't have to sacrifice any more resources on it. In the meantime she was going to stay in town to watch her cystic victims blossom into full undead minions.
When BBEL figured out that LN Priestess had interfered she needed some insurance to get the party where she needed them, so she ensorcelled the barbarian, who follows a spirit hawk (a story element he created and roleplays) he sees for every major life decision, and has him seeing the hawk flying toward the dungeon.
So the dilemma is: if she's masterminded all this WHY would she leave town to be in the dungeon to get destroyed? I'm sorry for not adding all this detail earlier. @ James: no, she's not omniscient so she definitely won't know their EXACT timing, but being in town she's physically seen them leave and figured out where they're heading. @ Berik: I agree that the party's fun is more important than the best laid plans, so here's what I'm thinking:
Party goes to dungeon, pokes around, finds NPC and BBEL's original body. Party moves to destroy, NPC stops them. NPC explains he's made a deal with BBEL's rival who control's this dungeon. Rival has given NPC the way to do it in return for a favor to be named later. Party now heads back to town for a final showdown but first they have to wade through necrotic cyst ghouls and then get the BBEL back into her own body so they don't destroy the NPC's wife. At the 0 hour the NPC finally blows his last save and begins the painful transformation into another ghoul. The party can save said NPC or destroy BBEL...but knowing my party they'll figure out a way on the spot to do both.
Thanks all for inadvertently helping me craft that last little plot twist and as to the paladin's atonement here's the epilogue:
In the wake of the adventure the town's Castelan returns from a new front in the war happening in the background; a front littered with the undead. An army of them launched at the PA's order and razed it to the ground. PA's mentor was mortally wounded died defending his comrades. That night at dinner a ghostly image of the mentor appears, graphically describing the bony hands and horrors that killed him and then accusing the PA to step it up or be torn asunder as he was. He will remind the PA, in front of everyone, of the Laws of their Order and warn the PA that he should suffer NO evil before him lest it consume him and all else... or something along those lines.
Bottom line, even though the kid playing the PA has only RPG'd once before and never played a PA, he should realize by now that it's time to do the right thing or suffer the consequences. I do however expect it to be his decision. I'm a FIRM believer that my role in the game is to remind players of the rules, and if they CHOOSE to follow or not to follow them I am the enforcer of their choice. Esoteric roleplaying rules like this one should be no different than concrete ones, like gravity.
This is really a question for your players, I think. You can do this without giving anything away, too. Just ask them if they're having fun and if they're happy with the pace of the game.
That said, a year sounds like plenty of time for one villain. I would probably try to wrap it soon, but leave it on a cliffhanger with the next hook. Don't nail your players to rails. But s little scripting goes along way.
How long is too long? When your players lose interest or become angry with the game, then it's too long. You should be able to sense this is happening before it's a problem.
In the campaign I'm running, Age of Worms, the party has known since very low levels that they will be facing off against some very powerful opponents. Every step of the way they have had to deal with these enemies. They are invested in the campaign and want to stop these enemies. They are very close to dealing with one, and the party is aware that this first enemy is very likely to kill at least one, if not several party members. The next is even worse.
There is no specific length of time. It's going to vary based on the group and the campaign. So long as you keep your players interested, you should do fine. The original Star Wars took 2 movies to deal with the Emperor. The X-Men Trilogy took 3 movies to finally stop Magneto (and he may not have been stopped). Harry Potter took 7 books/8 Movies to deal with Voldemort.
How long is too long? When your players lose interest or become angry with the game, then it's too long. You should be able to sense this is happening before it's a problem.
In the campaign I'm running, Age of Worms, the party has known since very low levels that they will be facing off against some very powerful opponents. Every step of the way they have had to deal with these enemies. They are invested in the campaign and want to stop these enemies. They are very close to dealing with one, and the party is aware that this first enemy is very likely to kill at least one, if not several party members. The next is even worse.
There is no specific length of time. It's going to vary based on the group and the campaign. So long as you keep your players interested, you should do fine. The original Star Wars took 2 movies to deal with the Emperor. The X-Men Trilogy took 3 movies to finally stop Magneto (and he may not have been stopped). Harry Potter took 7 books/8 Movies to deal with Voldemort.
3 original Star Wars films were spent taking down the Emperor. And so far, four X-Men films have featured Magneto as a villain.
But these are movies. It's kind of apples and oranges. In a gaming group you have a very small focus group to please and if they lose interest, the franchise is over.
Also, consider that the Emperor took, at most, seven hours of screen time to be defeated. A gaming group can easily spend two hours a week for months before getting to an end-boss. A tv show is probably a better analogy, and the best usually get to a goalpost within a season or two and then introduce a new one.
How long is too long? When your players lose interest or become angry with the game, then it's too long. You should be able to sense this is happening before it's a problem.
In the campaign I'm running, Age of Worms, the party has known since very low levels that they will be facing off against some very powerful opponents. Every step of the way they have had to deal with these enemies. They are invested in the campaign and want to stop these enemies. They are very close to dealing with one, and the party is aware that this first enemy is very likely to kill at least one, if not several party members. The next is even worse.
There is no specific length of time. It's going to vary based on the group and the campaign. So long as you keep your players interested, you should do fine. The original Star Wars took 2 movies to deal with the Emperor. The X-Men Trilogy took 3 movies to finally stop Magneto (and he may not have been stopped). Harry Potter took 7 books/8 Movies to deal with Voldemort.
3 original Star Wars films were spent taking down the Emperor. And so far, four X-Men films have featured Magneto as a villain.
But these are movies. It's kind of apples and oranges. In a gaming group you have a very small focus group to please and if they lose interest, the franchise is over.
Also, consider that the Emperor took, at most, seven hours of screen time to be defeated. A gaming group can easily spend two hours a week for months before getting to an end-boss. A tv show is probably a better analogy, and the best usually get to a goalpost within a season or two and then introduce a new one.
The Emperor wasn't mentioned in A New Hope. The X-Men Trilogy, not the Origins movies. It doesn't really matter though. The point is that there is no set time frame. It's about the story, not the villain. The villain is part of the story. Sometimes you can drag it out for a very long time. Other times you need to wrap it up more quickly. Let the audience decide not the calendar.
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Wow. How long to kill a villain? I get the "blow up the party" response.
@ Mike: I would feel terrible doing that to them. For one its overkill, and for another its a total Railroad on many levels. I've told the players from the start that this game is as much for them as it has been for me and in that vein I LET them make these characters.
Now yes; I have a plan to "force" the paladin to deal with the undead elephant in the room.
Well, let's see: there's the BIG elephant (the skeleton with "Evil Undead!" flashing in neon right in front of the guy with Smite Evil and Favored Enemy: Undead), the elephant's trainer (the necromancer and cleric of evil deity), the baby elephant (the barghest demon), and I'm betting the barbarian is chaotic-neutral with homicidal tendencies (just guessing there).
Wow. How long to kill a villain? I get the "blow up the party" response.
@ Mike: I would feel terrible doing that to them. For one its overkill, and for another its a total Railroad on many levels. I've told the players from the start that this game is as much for them as it has been for me and in that vein I LET them make these characters.
Now yes; I have a plan to "force" the paladin to deal with the undead elephant in the room.
Well, let's see: there's the BIG elephant (the skeleton with "Evil Undead!" flashing in neon right in front of the guy with Smite Evil and Favored Enemy: Undead), the elephant's trainer (the necromancer and cleric of evil deity), the baby elephant (the barghest demon), and I'm betting the barbarian is chaotic-neutral with homicidal tendencies (just guessing there).
OK OK! Here's the deal with evil and good mixing it up in my game:
Way back in adventure 3 my gaming group found out that one member would be moving and we decided to bring in a replacement. At the time we had a CG Barbarian, a CN Bard, a CN Rogue, and finally the LG Paladin. Into this mix we brought in a Cleric/Wizard Necromancer (which was a pre-gen I had created) who was originally LN and I hadn't decided what kind of Channel energy. The deities I have in my homebrew are holdovers from when I used to play that OTHER fantasy RPG and the cleric/wizard worships a lady with a flaming skull for a holy symbol.
Anyway, the player coming on board is an old vet to the game but has little experience with D20 and none with Pathfinder. So he asks me; do I HAVE to keep the alignment? I had given every other player the option to this point, even knowing there was a PA in the group, so I say for the character's deity you just need to stay LAWFUL. I thought he intended to go good; be a "white" necromancer. I was wrong.
I lectured him about his choices to which he replied that his evil would be contained to doing things OUTSIDE the party and that he would try to keep the party alive and going (it serves his character's interests.) So he spends hours crafting a backstory, disguise for the skeleton and away we go.
His character is introduced to the game as "a little help" by the super-holy priest of a sun god who is like this kindly old parish priest type. The players genuinely liked the old man so despite knowing out of character what the new guy was they went along in character. They then go off on their next adventure, the end of which saw them teleported into a swamp and they went into epic journey mode with little roleplaying eventually getting through a dungeon, out of the swamp, and into a town. During that ENTIRE time, not ONCE did the cleric EVER use his Channel negative energy in front of the party. He also tossed around a few heals, was genuinely nice to the party, and has canned explanations for his bodyguard's "eccentricities". Remember; the PA is being played by a kid who has only RPG'd one other time in his life. I have explained the PA code thing to him and even given him a write up of his order but since he hasn't "seen" the evil he hasn't smited.
The rest of the party could care less. The barbarian to this point calls the character names and grows ever more suspicious, but that's about it. But at this point in the game the party gets a long epilogue. during the downtime the kindly old NPC dies, the young blacksmith-turned-cleric from their very first adventure goes off and has a couple adventures of his own, returning as their new sun god cleric NPC and a terrible disease hits their home base. As they get back together they go off in search of ingredients for a cure.
Now the party starts seeing the evil first hand so to speak. The CL/WIZ chanels neg. energy in a tough spot. As well the kid sun god cl NPC is with them and has a thing against undead, so he starts taking notes on the bodyguard... and comes up that he's a skeleton. This is promptly ignored at the end of the adventure.
We're now just about to get to the next adventure. Out of character a lot of discussion circles around the "evilness" as the ROG has gotten more and more opportunistic. The guy playing the BAR has even said: it's going to end up being a showdown in character with the PA and I on one side and the other characters on the other.
They're already on their way to the BBEL's spooky castle. Once the adventure is over I'm going to give the PA an ultimatum in character. I've tried subtlety, and I've tried the direct approach to motivate him to act out of character. I'm not a fan of the "demote the PA from on high" maneuver but I'm done being nice. I also don't want to have the players turn on one another but I have been warning this for months and now there is nothing more to it.
The PA must either destroy the skellie and convert/destroy the cl/wiz, or face demotion. If it comes to a straight fight it'd be tough since the guy playing the cl/wiz has been planning for this for a while now. Everyone get your popcorn ready 'cause it's going to be good!
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You can stretch it out as long as you like but you have to relieve the tension a bit. Players like to feel like they are accomplishing something.
I have a few suggestions:
1) He creates a ghoul that looks like him and sends it on a distracting action with part of his force. The PCs are given two clues as to the villain's real intentions. They also get information on the "clone" doing something evil somewhere else. This evil should be out of character compared to what has gone before. Then they choose a path. If they follow the clone then they kill him but the villain gets away with his new plan. If they follow the actual villain the clone becomes the intermediate villain between the players and the other actual villain you mentioned. For a while the players get to think they did it.
2)The villain has a plan that requires exposing himself for a short while. The PCs get wind of it and have a short time to act where they can kill him. (maybe a couple days) If they delay then they still have a chance. Make it clear that they have a short window.
3)Have the villain make a few lieutenants so he can carry out a complex plan. The PCs somehow surprise the first one and discover papers leading to the next. This gives them a chain of lesser villains to defeat on the way to the true villain. It lets the true villain accomplish some more evil (and maybe set up the other guy for success). After a few more adventures leading up the chain they kill him.
Don't forget, evils also get access to those pesky high level wish type spells, so even if they kill her now, there's no reason she has "pleased" a higher order resulting in a return appearance at a later date...
The Emperor wasn't mentioned in A New Hope.
Not true, sir.
The Emperor wasn't mentioned in A New Hope.
Sorry, I forgot about that single mention. It doesn't change my point in the slightest though. The GM shouldn't limit himself to a specific number of encounters/adventures/levels. Instead he should limit himself to the interest his players have.
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Sorry, I forgot about that single mention. It doesn't change my point in the slightest though. The GM shouldn't limit himself to a specific number of encounters/adventures/levels. Instead he should limit himself to the interest his players have.Not true, sir.
The Emperor wasn't mentioned in A New Hope.
To be fair he was implied throughout A New Hope. Empire implies Emperor (or Empress). This does not kill your point though because the original trilogy was all about defeating the empire in general not the Emperor specifically.
Umm...Emperor Schmemperor. I love the original star wars series too (saw ROTJ IN the the theatre - I'm old.) and I don't mean to be snippy but this is'nt a thread about that.
I do however appreciate all the help thus far on the original topic of how long is too long. For my players I think my span to hold their interest with anything behind the scenes like a BBEG is about 3 months or 3 gaming sessions; by then the natives are getting restless and I at least need to re-introduce the plot point/NPC/artifact etc or somehow bring it to bear in the game or it fades into nothingness.
This campaign has been a good learning experience, even for an old vet like me. I thought I could keep a game fresh and interesting with 2 interweaving plotlines and villains; one from the Chaotic Evil end of the spectrum with the other on the Lawful Evil side. Both want to rule in their own way but as the movie tag line says: there can be only one.
Now that I'm about a year into it and the characters have made it up to 5th level its painfully obvious that these players, at this time, are not as invested in this as I am. I won't dwell on my failings however; I'm going to script a CR9 BBEL fight for the end of this particular arc of the game that will leave the players both satisfied AND hungry for more at the same time. And who knows, maybe they do only fight her ghoul, or doppleganger, or lieutenant or maybe her evil demon king decides his consort is worth one more chance before casting her into the pits...