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Aid Another states: "You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check."
How does it work for spells?
Do you help a friend make his saving throw, by making your own DC 10 saving throw?
Can you do this before the spell is cast, or must it be done after the spell has affected him (such as the recurring saves of Hold Person or the Poison spell)?
If you can help before the spell lands, do you choose a spell, or a spellcaster, to which the bonus will apply? That doesn't make much sense. Could you ready an action to aid another triggered by the spell being cast on him, to grant him the bonus on his initial save? (I don't know if that's clear, meaning Evil Wizard begins to cast Finger of Death, you identify it and trigger your readied action, you make a DC 10 Fortitude save to grant the fighter a +2 on his save when the Finger goes off) That makes more sense, but seems kind of wonky.
Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
For save throws I see it as the power of group think put to better (maybe?) ends -- "Come on buddy we can do this! You can fight it! It's just a little spell!"
It's still a standard action (normally) to do though so it would be something you would do on your turn to help him.
At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his armor class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
Order of the dragon increases the bonus on save throws specifically.
Also the ability does state it can be used to help an ally affected by a spell -- but only if you are in a position to make a melee attack on an enemy in melee range of your ally.
Also the ability does state it can be used to help an ally affected by a spell -- but only if you are in a position to make a melee attack on an enemy in melee range of your ally.
The part about helping with a spell is the same line as skill checks, which use a different mechanic than helping with attack or AC.
If the barbarian triggers a magical trap, and he's suffering acid damage, he's affected by a spell, so you should be able to Aid him, no? Making an attack on the spent trap makes no sense. (Though, to be fair, making the same kind of save as some sort of sympathetic pain thing? "Ohh man, that looks like it really burns, ouch!")
So we know you can help with spells, there just doesn't seem to be any rules about how.
I think that the part about using Aid Another refers to the fact that certain spells effects may be influenced by allies helping the target: waking sleeping creature is standard action that falls under Aid Another, ending fascinate effect is a standard action that falls under Aid Another, helping extinguish flame on a creature that caught on flame would be Aid Another too.
The combat aid another text clearly states that your roll can help your friend by giving him a +2 to attack or +2 to AC. +2 to AC might help with touch attack spells.
Then how does the dragon cavalier grant a bonus to saves?
The combat aid another text clearly states that your roll can help your friend by giving him a +2 to attack or +2 to AC. +2 to AC might help with touch attack spells.Then how does the dragon cavalier grant a bonus to saves?
Because he has ability that allows him to do so.
There is possibility that this is error - cavalier's designer listed saving throw forgetting that Aid Another cannot grant bonus to saving throws - I often forgot that and could make that mistake myself. But as order of dragon is very set on cooperation and tactics it can be deliberate choice.
Because he has ability that allows him to do so.
Then how does it work?
The barbarian is covered in magical acid. I want to help. Do I just swing my sword at the square the trap was in?
The wizard hit our cleric with the Poison spell, then died. Do I stab his corpse to help the cleric make his next save?
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The combat aid another text clearly states that your roll can help your friend by giving him a +2 to attack or +2 to AC. +2 to AC might help with touch attack spells.
Also, what Drejk said.
Explain the order of the dragon ability then. You plainly can use aid other to help with save throws.
I flagged this to (hopefully) get moved to the Advice forum. I'm pretty confident there are no existing rules on how to run this, so any input on a fair method that makes sense is welcome.
I guess so far my options are:
1) Ignore the part about spells. Atk/AC/Skills only, barring things that specifically call it out (such as waking from magical sleep).
2) Allow the Aid-er to make the same type of save at DC 10 to sympathetically help the person suffering from an existing magical effect with recurring saves to make his next save VS that spell.
3) Allow some kind of preventative saving mechanism? Hit a spellcaster to grant a save bonus to the next person he casts a spell on? This one seems the hardest to figure out.
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A few things to keep in mind. 1st, Aid Another is a standard action so unless you ready an action you usually cannot act in response to an attack. 2nd That is why you usually aid another before the friend goes to attack.
3rd, The text for the dragon cavalier power is Aid Allies (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his Armor Class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
The cavalier power gives and extra +1 to the usual aid another stuff and adds in +3 to saving throws.
But how will he use it for saving throws? He has to act before the saving throw.
Example: Dragon Cavalier stands next to rogue while rogue disables trap. He rolls to aid another and give a bonus to saves. The rogue fiddles with the trap and sets it off sending a spray of acid at his face. The cavalier having been ready (meaning he made the aid another roll already) gives the rogue a kick to shove him out of the way. The rogue rolls a save with a +3.
The fluff of how it works is not important. What is important is that aid another must happen before the attack or saving throw occurs.
To support the idea that normal aid another only helps with skills, attacks, or AC I present Swift Aid from the APG. A feat that lets you aid another as a swift action. It provides +1 to AC or attack only.
Karkon I would suggest that swift aid is specifically limited and therefore and exception from how aid other normally works though.
But I don't think either of us have anything else to support either side of that.
Example: Dragon Cavalier stands next to rogue while rogue disables trap. He rolls to aid another and give a bonus to saves.
What exactly does he roll? An attack roll? Disable Device? A reflex save? What if the trap is Fort based instead of Reflex?
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Example: Dragon Cavalier stands next to rogue while rogue disables trap. He rolls to aid another and give a bonus to saves.What exactly does he roll? An attack roll? Disable Device? A reflex save? What if the trap is Fort based instead of Reflex?
Like I said, I think the fluff of how it works is unimportant. But here goes:
Whoops the trap was actually poison spray. The cavalier pushes the rogue aside so the rogue gets less of the spray on him.
Whoops the traps was a charm person light that made the rogue the friend of the evil wizard in the the next room. The cavalier pushes him aside so that the rogue did not get the full effect of the light.
I could go all day.
Abe, you may be right. But let me see if I can pull it out anyway: swift aid is already limited in giving only +1 to those things. Also there are a ton of feats in the APG that use the aid another mechanic. None of them mention saves.
Well I can understand why bodyguard wouldn't -- it's again a specific application, swift aid specifically limits itself to attack and AC as well, Shared Insight isn't related to aid other (though it does something similar) same with Sociable, Team up simply changes the action type so it doesn't provide any insight into how it works.
So I'm not seeing how any of these feats give us any more insight. I mean sure they don't mention saves, but then again they don't mention anything other than action type when they do mention anything at all -- or they are specifically limiting what sort of aid other you can do with a specific action type.
The halfling Helpful trait doesn't provide any insight either since it simply states that it increases the bonus.
That doesn't really comment on how normal aid other works.
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Like I said, I think the fluff of how it works is unimportant. But here goes:
Whoops the trap was actually poison spray. The cavalier pushes the rogue aside so the rogue gets less of the spray on him.
Whoops the traps was a charm person light that made the rogue the friend of the evil wizard in the the next room. The cavalier pushes him aside so that the rogue did not get the full effect of the light.
I'm not asking about fluff. I'm asking what type of check the cavalier makes to aid him.
-edit-
Here's an example:
Our level 12 Cavalier has a poor Will save, and he dumped Wis. His Will save is +2. His Fort save, though, is +10. His attack bonus is a crazy +15.
So if you say he has to make a DC 10 Will save in order to successfully Aid the rogue who is about to blow up a Charm Person trap, he needs to roll an 8 on the d20.
But if it's a Fort save, because it's actually a Poison trap, he can't fail.
And if it's an attack roll to kick the rogue (?!?) out of the way, he can't fail unless he rolls a natural 1.
Abraham, by definition any specific rule is exception to general rules and class features are more specific than rules in combat section.
General rule: character can take aid another action to grant +2 stackable bonus to attack roll, AC or skill check to an ally in blahblahblah conditions.
Specific rule: when 2nd level+ OOD Cavalier takes an aid another action he grants +3 bonus to attack roll, AC, skill check or saving throw and the bonus increases at higher Cavalier levels.
The specific rule lists differences from general rule - higher bonus, bonus increase at higher levels and additional option of increasing saving throw. Nothing regards condition is said so they do not change - cavalier still has to make a AC/DC 10 attack roll/skill check
Well, that is the way it should work but in this case I think that it is error made while writing Order Of The Dragon. Why? Because it does not specify how the saving throw bonus works - does it apply to first saving throw made before the beginning of the cavalier's following turn or has it to be granted against specific source/opponent like attack/AC bonus?
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Like I said, I think the fluff of how it works is unimportant. But here goes:
Whoops the trap was actually poison spray. The cavalier pushes the rogue aside so the rogue gets less of the spray on him.
Whoops the traps was a charm person light that made the rogue the friend of the evil wizard in the the next room. The cavalier pushes him aside so that the rogue did not get the full effect of the light.
I'm not asking about fluff. I'm asking what type of check the cavalier makes to aid him.
-edit-
Here's an example:Our level 12 Cavalier has a poor Will save, and he dumped Wis. His Will save is +2. His Fort save, though, is +10. His attack bonus is a crazy +15.
So if you say he has to make a DC 10 Will save in order to successfully Aid the rogue who is about to blow up a Charm Person trap, he needs to roll an 8 on the d20.
But if it's a Fort save, because it's actually a Poison trap, he can't fail.
And if it's an attack roll to kick the rogue (?!?) out of the way, he can't fail unless he rolls a natural 1.
I am gonna go with the attack roll. Even at low levels AC10 is easy for fighting types with str, Weapon focus, maybe masterwork. No place in the rules is an example given for doing a save to aid another. Heck to give more armor class you still attack.
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Well I can understand why bodyguard wouldn't -- it's again a specific application, swift aid specifically limits itself to attack and AC as well, Shared Insight isn't related to aid other (though it does something similar) same with Sociable, Team up simply changes the action type so it doesn't provide any insight into how it works.
So I'm not seeing how any of these feats give us any more insight. I mean sure they don't mention saves, but then again they don't mention anything other than action type when they do mention anything at all -- or they are specifically limiting what sort of aid other you can do with a specific action type.
The halfling Helpful trait doesn't provide any insight either since it simply states that it increases the bonus.
That doesn't really comment on how normal aid other works.
Those feats are relevant to our discussion. Saving throw bonuses would be relevant in combat and none of the combat oriented aid another feats help with that. There is no feat that gives some help with aid another for saving throws. This is doubly relevant in that the cavalier in the same book gets to add to saving throws.
To be honest I think it is just an editing error but if it is not I am arguing the RAW. Marked Grick's last post as FAQ to see if there can be some official clarification.
You are suggesting that somehow those affect what the normal aid other is -- but none of them actually discuss what the normal aid other is or what it can and can't do.
Saying, 'You can use aid another as a move action when adjacent to two or more allies' isn't the same as saying, "Aid another can't be used to aid save throws.'
Same with bodyguard -- just because it is limited application does not even begin to imply that a normal aid other is limited from helping save throws.
The helpful trait doesn't suggest such either.
You can't say these implicitly rule out aiding save throws without admitting that they just as implicitly don't rule it out because they never actually comment on what is done with an aid other action.
I am gonna go with the attack roll.
I can't wait for this to come up in game.
DM: "Horlgrath, as you speed past the statue, a hidden rune lights up and the statue breathes a cone of noxious poison. Make a Fort save."
Horlgrath: "Hah, 18!"
DM: "You failed. Take 4 con damage."
Horlgrath: "Guys, I'm going to need help with this."
Cavalier: "I attack the darkness!"
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I am gonna go with the attack roll.I can't wait for this to come up in game.
DM: "Horlgrath, as you speed past the statue, a hidden rune lights up and the statue breathes a cone of noxious poison. Make a Fort save."
Horlgrath: "Hah, 18!"
DM: "You failed. Take 4 con damage."
Horlgrath: "Guys, I'm going to need help with this."
Cavalier: "I attack the darkness!"
Yea the cavalier would have to attack the darkness before Holgrath ran through to be any help.
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You are suggesting that somehow those affect what the normal aid other is -- but none of them actually discuss what the normal aid other is or what it can and can't do.
Saying, 'You can use aid another as a move action when adjacent to two or more allies' isn't the same as saying, "Aid another can't be used to aid save throws.'
Same with bodyguard -- just because it is limited application does not even begin to imply that a normal aid other is limited from helping save throws.
The helpful trait doesn't suggest such either.
You can't say these implicitly rule out aiding save throws without admitting that they just as implicitly don't rule it out because they never actually comment on what is done with an aid other action.
Your point is valid.
It just seems odd that they would not address that feature at all when making so many feats that use the aid another action.
Yea the cavalier would have to attack the darkness before Holgrath ran through to be any help.
Except if he hasn't run through the trap, he hasn't been affected by a spell. You can Aid Another "when he is affected by a spell."
So, in the example, the barbarian is poisoned, and must make a Fort save each round. Thus, the Cavalier can make some kind of check to Aid him on his next Fort save.
Having that check be an attack roll only makes marginally less sense than having it be a Fort save.
You are suggesting that somehow those affect what the normal aid other is -- but none of them actually discuss what the normal aid other is or what it can and can't do.
Saying, 'You can use aid another as a move action when adjacent to two or more allies' isn't the same as saying, "Aid another can't be used to aid save throws.'
Same with bodyguard -- just because it is limited application does not even begin to imply that a normal aid other is limited from helping save throws.
The helpful trait doesn't suggest such either.
You can't say these implicitly rule out aiding save throws without admitting that they just as implicitly don't rule it out because they never actually comment on what is done with an aid other action.
Your point is valid.
It just seems odd that they would not address that feature at all when making so many feats that use the aid another action.
It is a very odd part of the rules that could easily go either way.
Oh, well in that case, I present to Sleep which has in its description how to use aid another for that spell. I am thinking that aid another for spells has very limited use.
But waking someone from magical sleep isn't granting a bonus, it just happens, while the cavalier grants a bonus to saves.
Barring Dev input, I think I'm going to go with option 1. and only do Aid for Atk/AC/Skills. (and hope to never have a dragon cavalier in my games.)
Thanks for the input, folks.
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This issue has re-emerged with the FAQ regarding the Bodyguard Feat. The thread in response has discussed how the FAQ logic might apply to Vanguard Style if at all.
Should be pointed out that the order of dragon adds a bonus in addition to the aid another, which is why it can help with saving throws.
Imagine a Helpful Halfling!
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Should be pointed out that the order of dragon adds a bonus in addition to the aid another, which is why it can help with saving throws.
or it just increases the bonuses everyone can give with aid another, like everything else on the list.
Another previous thread on this topic
That last 2 comments though I'm trying to laugh to loud at work