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Oh, I had a different build of AMY in mind. There's no error. Herp derp.
Still fails to the 39 AC 4 attacking 28 Charisma level 10 Synthasist, who had pounce since level 2. And I think the Druid is more powerful at most levels. At 12 the Synth 8/ Alch 4 with the regurgitating potions would be hard to beat.
Does the Synthesist have the ability to increase its damage by adding grab and constrict to all its natural attacks? With greater Invis, thats sneak attack how many times?
I mean, it may, I dont know... but thats one example of a Cool Trick AMY has at her disposal, with an hours work to make a Mutagen, with no associated cost.
I'd also love to see that Synthesist build. Is it in a separate forum post?
Some Notes:
I kind of doubt that the druid will be much better until 6th level. At that point, it *might* be better, due to a Lion's pounce. But AMY's DPR in the most favorable situation (and if we assume the druid will be using a Lion, we are assuming that) at 5th level is just shy of 63 points. Perhaps with the Big Cat animal companion as well, hmm...Doubtful until level 7.
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Yes, actually, if you want it; constrict is a fully legal add if you desire (most prefer trip to grapple though), and greater Invis is a 3rd level spell on the summoners list (they can get it @ 7 if so desired). Also, a level 1 spell will make you size huge, which will increase your damage on the level of greater Invis. Also, the constrict / grab functions just cost evolution points, but are "always on" (not limited to the time the mutagen is going). Your strength is also generally higher than the alchemist alone.
Let's stat this guy, 20 points
Half Elf Alchemist (Vivi) 4 / Synthasist 8 (Quadreped)
Str: 7 (28)... 32 mutatagened, 34 mutatagened and enlarged
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (17)
Con: 18 (19)
Chr: 22 (16 +2 race +2 level +2 item)
All summoner levels to evolution points. All Alchy to hp.
Always up, extended potion of Greater Magic Fangs on claws (20th level, lasts 40 hours), Mage armor (cast 3 times / day so it lasts 24 hours)
Evolutions: Arms (2), Claws * 2 (2), Improved Attack (Claws) (1), Pounce (1), Improved Natural Armor * 2 (2), Large (4), Mount (in case AM barbarian or some other fighty type wants a ride)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Gang Up, Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Greater Improved Grapple
AC: 32 -12 (base) +3 (Dex) +6 (level) +4 (Mage armor) -1 (size) +4 (INA) +2 (Size) +1 (protection) +1 (ioun stone). 4 hours per day can regurgitate potion for +5 natural armor, can shield for +4, and mutagen for +2. So 43 possible.
Attacks (with pounce): +9 BAB +9 strength +5 GMF -3 PA -1 size = +19, +21 if mutagened
Damage: 2d6 +9 Str +5 GMF +6 power attack +d6 electric (+2d6 sneak) =3d6(5d6)+20 *4. +d6 each if enlarged, +2 if mutagened. 1st attack does +4 extra, 5 if mutagened.
Hmmm, in most ways this is actually far worse than synth 12, so maybe not as great an idea... the regurgitating potions and sneak attack don't make up for the additional strength gains / spells / armor gains / evolutions like I thought they would. Ah well, back to the proverbial drawing board.
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Found my Old summoner 10 build:
Str: 7 (31)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (16)
Con: 14 (20)
Chr: 21 (23)
Circlet of Persuasion
Amulet of Mighty Fist +1
+2 Headband (Cha)
+2 Belt of physical perfection
2 Wands of lesser extend
Cracked ioun stones (+1 Init, +1 saves)
1 wand of lesser widen (for black tentacles)
All class points put towards evolutions (so he has 2 extra now)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes Power Attack
Evolution: Large, Bite, Claws, Electric Attack, Trip (Bite), Wings, Improved Natural Armor (3)
AC (extended Mage armor assumed): 10 + 4 (Mage armor) +2 (Eidilon Shiled) + 18 (natural) + 3 (dex) = 37. EDIT: In my initial build I had improved Dex (2) but removed it for flight and electrict damage, so adjusted down. Also only gets 4 Combat reflex attacks.
HP: (8+ 45 + 27) = 80 without Eidilon. With Eidilon con goes up by 4, so 98, then you get the Eidilon's hps as temp 8 * 5.5 + 5 * 5.5, and you get 20 extra hp for his higher con. So 100 + 71 temp.
Attacks: +8 BAB + 10 Str + 1 magic -1 size = +18
Damage: bite: 3d6 + 16 + trip (CMB: +23, 8 BAB, 4 Feats, 10 Str, 1 Size)
Claws: d8 + d6 +10 * 4
Can be -2 / +4 on all attacks, if desired.
Tactics; when closing he typically goes in @ 15 feat and tried to bite (15 foot reach), and knock them over. When people close he uses his 6 AOOs with his bite to attempt to get them down on the ground, then moves up with his 10 foot reach claws and tears them apart. If there is a dangerous group, he creates a 40 foot black tentacles vs caster types or drops slow on melee types. if he can buff he tosses on an extended enlarge person so he can be even more silly.
1) Mage armor, grease, enlarge person, random utility
2) Lesser Surge, Summon Eidilon, Slow, haste, wind wall
3) Black tentacles, surge, Summon monster IV, D Door
4) Greater Evolution Surge, Teleport
Note: -2 strength, switch "reach" for "pounce", +1 AC and you get the quadruped variant.
I avoid synthesists since no one gets them right. Also because there are so many corner cases that they should be stricken from the game. Like the whole arms / somatic components bit. Unless a quadruped spends evo points on the Limbs (Arms) evolution, they can't cast any spells. Or being able to use shapechange like effects to qualify for feats. JB says he's inclined to say that won't work. SKR says he is in the camp that says it would let you qualify.
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I agree quads need arms to cast, and additional arms + claws are the most efficient attacks anyway. I put all of the math above, so everything should check out easily.... they're not difficult tO build. As shown above, I do prefer bipeds (higher strength, 15 foot reach is usually better than pounce), but Quads work (if you don't mind looking like a Centaur). The Gnome-small serpent-Amulet of agility build has a 44 AC which can easily get up to 50 with spells @ 10, and attacks 4 times for d3 +15. Has higher con / Chr and an insane sneak for ultimate survivability :). It's hard to beat a synth for anything though; even AM Barbarian needs one Leadershiped in (and ironically would be more powerful if he was Leadershiped in by the Synth).
Somethings to note about the synthesist builds above.
~Enlarge person doesnt work on a synthesis in his fused form. This is confirmed under the FAQ.
~Gang Up requires combat expertise.
That's what I spotted anyhow.
Attacks: +8 BAB + 10 Str + 1 magic -1 size = +18
Damage: bite: 3d6 + 16 + trip (CMB: +23, 8 BAB, 4 Feats, 10 Str, 1 Size)
Claws: d8 + d6 +10 * 4
Can be -2 / +4 on all attacks, if desired.
You might want to run those numbers for level 12, since the OP #'s on AMY at 12 are:
Full Routine: +22 1d6+33 / +22 1d6+30 / +22 1d8+30When sneak attacking: +24 1d6+33+5d6 / +24 1d6+5d6 / +24 1d8+30+5d6
When pouncing into a sneak attack: +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d8+30+5d6
Which seems way more impressive than what you posted.
Perhaps you can find a way to do better.
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Well, if we want to damage maximize a quad Eidilon (best comparison)
Str: 34 (includes a +4 item)
Evolutions: Arms, Claws*2, Large, Improved Str (costs 4), Electric attack, Rend, Pounce, better bite (1 1/2 Str), Improved natural (claws)
Feats: Improved Natural (Claws, Bite), Weapon Focus (Claws Bite), Improved Unarmed, Dragon Style
Every day, casts 2 GMF to cover claws and bite at +3
All attacks: +9 BAB +12 Str +3 GMF +1 Weapon Focus = +25, +27 on pounce, +29 when pouncing into flank
Damage: Bite - 4d6 + 21 Claws(*4) = 3d6 + 15 (first one is 2d6 + 24)
If 2 of the 4 claws hits, gets a rend (2d6 +24 damage)
So better to hit and a higher damage output, in addition to more spell access. And even with no magic items and no concentration has an AC of 27 and +4 to all saves. Only magic item assumed was a lesser rod of extend an a +4 belt of strength.
Can also transmogrify on another +2 strength for mins/lvl, and if he uses the spell "Summon Eidilon" to bring on his form, gets a further +4 strength.
Not the build I would make per se; I prefer flying highly defensive builds that happen to do pretty insane damage... but damage maximization is paramount. We could even take this to level 20, having the Synthasist with another Synthasist via leadership feat, and outdamage AM BARBARIAN into oblivion :).
wait what, how do you have 37 AC at that level?Half-Elf Ranger 2/Vivisectionist 8 and a bunch of other cool stuff.
I think you need 2-weapon fighting to avoid some nasty penalties to hit. Even though the bite and claws are considered primary weapons, once you throw the scimtar into the mix things get messed up.
I think you could attack with the scimitar and bite and still be ok, but again the claws create a problem.
Am I wrong about this????
Still a nice build, I may use it as a base for my pirate/ships doctor in SS.
Never mind, found supporting rules, very nice job with the build.
For Cheapy and the others ones:
Could be better if allowed to use a Potion or a Wand of Lead Blades (Rgr 1 Spell, APG), pretty cool duration if as potion...
And what about change a the Ftr lvl, the 7th MChymist, and 2 from the Alchemist to take 4 level Rogue (Scout to deny dex on every charge/pounce).
I could even trade the 2 rogues talent for 2 feats, and i'm replacing a few things...
bit of a necropost you've got there.
*fades back into the shadows*
For Cheapy and the others ones:
Could be better if allowed to use a Potion or a Wand of Lead Blades (Rgr 1 Spell, APG), pretty cool duration if as potion...
And what about change a the Ftr lvl, the 7th MChymist, and 2 from the Alchemist to take 4 level Rogue (Scout to deny dex on every charge/pounce).
I could even trade the 2 rogues talent for 2 feats, and i'm replacing a few things...
That would require a wand, and there's an ever so small argument that it'd only be for manufactured weapons, so I'd pass on recommending it. It'd require a move + standard action every combat too, which isn't so good. And that's not even thinking of how to put it away :)
To me, the "core" of the build is just the first 3-5 levels. That's when it clicks.
Note, of course, that this was made over a year ago. Since then, Paizo has introduced a number of options that make AMY not as powerful as she could be. In particular, Tengu is a far better race for this now, as they can start out with 3 natural attacks without using that cheesy Adopted thing to get the bite attack. I have no clue why they thought that was a good idea, but there we have it. They also count as having IUS, but that doesn't help as much, since we're using monk to get IUS as well as to jump the prerequisites of dragon style.
Since the first post, there have also been a number of clarifications by the developers here or there that cause the build to not work as well as previously. There have also been some attempts to incorporate unarmed strikes as an extension of this type of build (the "natural attack freak" build), but those were shutdown.
I was going to post about them as they came up, but sometimes it's best to let sleeping alchemical beasts lie, rather than bump them up. It's an exercise for the reader to figure out which aspects were affected by which clarifications.
I still highly recommend not using this, and for me the chief purpose of it is educational on both the power of natural attacks as well as how even Paizo slips up on balance now and then.
Happy New Year for everyone here.
I understood almost all of the answer you gave to me.
I will play, like Goblin Assassin, a new over powered game, where the DM will put enough though monsters to defeat, so I will need something that could be nice enough to survive and be useful in fights.
I know there will be a well played barbarian, a wizard and we don't already know the 4th player.
Can you recommend me many advices?
Happy new year to you too!
You might have better luck as your own thread. Just make sure it's clear that it's for an OP game, and you'll get people helping in droves. Also take a look at the agile weapon enhancement.
Well I was wondering about using Amy Alchy, but as you said that many rules changed and I don't have a lot of experience of PF, so I would like to know that flows that could have now.
I am a bit tired and only skimmed the thread, so this may have been mentioned, but neither Mutagen nor beastmorph are listed polymorph effects. The for they can be used with monstrous form or Giant form. So shape into a 2 headed troll with fly, Regen, foracity, and 4 primary attacks ect. Or a four armed Gargoyle. 6 primary attacks. Not enough attacks for you? Attacks granted by classes apply to polymorphs, take vestigal arm and feral mutagen for 6 claws. Also with 2 combine extracts 1 delay extract, eternal potion and the fast drink trait, you can have 6 magical effects (5 if you choose to drink a mutagen) after the first turn
I don't know how damage will stack with rage pounce lancer, but nothing is stopping the alchemist from getting a mount and lance (dipping if necessary)
Can somebody please explain where I'm missing something? Claws do 1d4 damage, right?
Why in so many examples above are the claw attacks doing 1d6?
Can I have a rule cite on why it is 1d6 if it is? Or is this a mistake?
I am trying to make a similar (toned down?) character with many amy features.
Please help!
-V
Feral Mutagen gives claws that do 1d6.
thank you!
Cheapy where's the latest version of your crazy build. I may use it.
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I generally recommend against this type of build for party marginalization reasons, so there isn't an updated version.
Was going to use as an NPC for illustrative reasons...
Thanks though :)
Ok, I'll probably kick myself, but for the life of me I'm not seeing how you are taking the Dragon Style feat at Level 1 when it requires 3 ranks in Acrobatics. I've never played a monk in PF so I'm sure it's something simple I'm just not familiar with.
Ok, I'll probably kick myself, but for the life of me I'm not seeing how you are taking the Dragon Style feat at Level 1 when it requires 3 ranks in Acrobatics. I've never played a monk in PF so I'm sure it's something simple I'm just not familiar with.
Read the monk archtype, it has nothing to do with PFS.
Ahh I just meant Pathfinder (PF) in general, not PFS, but I see it now. That's what I get for relying on the description in HeroLab instead of pulling out the book. In HeroLab, the Master of Styles description doesn't include the verbiage about the Bonus Feats, and it was flagging the lack of the prereq on the character.
I started it over this morning and its working fine. Go fig.
I generally recommend against this type of build for party marginalization reasons, so there isn't an updated version.
There is something to be said for seeing how bad it can get, though.
If only for DMs to have yet another ace up our sleeves for unruly parties.I'll pay 5,000 PP and the legendary item(s) of your choosing for a Mythic Amy build. After all, who else will my group fight after the end of Wrath of the Righteous? ;)
AM BARBARIAN in his non-mythic full level 20 form.
AM BARBARIAN in his non-mythic full level 20 form.
I already figured out how to beat AM BARBARIAN: Disguise myself as Batty Bat. He'd never suspect a thing.
I generally recommend against this type of build for party marginalization reasons, so there isn't an updated version.There is something to be said for seeing how bad it can get, though.
If only for DMs to have yet another ace up our sleeves for unruly parties.I'll pay 5,000 PP and the legendary item(s) of your choosing for a Mythic Amy build. After all, who else will my group fight after the end of Wrath of the Righteous? ;)
I haven't actually looked too closely at the Mythic stuff yet. I did look over the Trickster path for an alchemist in my game, but from what I remember, it wouldn't help too much with AMY. Champion is probably the way to go, although Guardian (or whatever the defensive one is) might be good too. Lord knows AMY is fine with damage. Shoring up defenses may be better.
I haven't actually looked too closely at the Mythic stuff yet. I did look over the Trickster path for an alchemist in my game, but from what I remember, it wouldn't help too much with AMY. Champion is probably the way to go, although Guardian (or whatever the defensive one is) might be good too. Lord knows AMY is fine with damage. Shoring up defenses may be better.I generally recommend against this type of build for party marginalization reasons, so there isn't an updated version.There is something to be said for seeing how bad it can get, though.
If only for DMs to have yet another ace up our sleeves for unruly parties.I'll pay 5,000 PP and the legendary item(s) of your choosing for a Mythic Amy build. After all, who else will my group fight after the end of Wrath of the Righteous? ;)
Yes, but the best defense is a good offense...dead mobs deal no damage!
Yes, but the best defense is a good offense...dead mobs deal no damage!I haven't actually looked too closely at the Mythic stuff yet. I did look over the Trickster path for an alchemist in my game, but from what I remember, it wouldn't help too much with AMY. Champion is probably the way to go, although Guardian (or whatever the defensive one is) might be good too. Lord knows AMY is fine with damage. Shoring up defenses may be better.I generally recommend against this type of build for party marginalization reasons, so there isn't an updated version.There is something to be said for seeing how bad it can get, though.
If only for DMs to have yet another ace up our sleeves for unruly parties.I'll pay 5,000 PP and the legendary item(s) of your choosing for a Mythic Amy build. After all, who else will my group fight after the end of Wrath of the Righteous? ;)
though the dead mob's buddies are still free to swing while alive.
Because I didn't want to use overpowered options.
:p
Because I didn't want to use overpowered options.
:p
While I applaud your restraint...this is an exercise in ridiculousness. A lot has changed since this thread was started. And we can't show proper restraint if we don't know how far off road we can go. The changes to SLAs...Eclectic/Esoteric Training...if you only knew the power of the Dark Side!
I know enough embarassing facts from his past to assure you that he does in fact know about the power of the dark side. He couldn't help it really. All the cool freelancers were doing it.
Now he does public speaking, one on one chats, motivational events.
He's a recovering addict of the dark side. Don't tempt him.
I know enough embarassing facts from his past to assure you that he does in fact know about the power of the dark side. He couldn't help it really. All the cool freelancers were doing it.
Now he does public speaking, one on one chats, motivational events.
He's a recovering addict of the dark side. Don't tempt him.
Well, since the first step is admitting you have a problem...I really have no idea what you're talking about.