It has to say that "if you have this feat, you may choose another that you meet the prerequisites for".
So no. Unless I am wrong. Then yes.
As an example, my 4th-level cleric already has the Endurance feat. I'm contemplating taking a level of the Unbreakable fighter archetype when I hit 5th. Do I just get Diehard? Or do I get Diehard plus another combat feat?
I remember reading a definition of bonus feat that indicated you could rechoose if you already had it, but that might've been in 3.5, because I certainly can't find such a reference now.Only if the feat specifically says that it can be taken more than once.
My usual houserule is to let the player take another feat that he has the pre-reqs for in such a situation.
My houserule is that they gain the feat in the new class and may "respec" the first endurance to any feat they would have qualified for at the time they selected it. Hence if a 4th level fighter had taken endurance at 3rd level and later gained it as a bonus feat, I would allow him to replace the 3rd level feat with any other feat he qualified for.
As an example, my 4th-level cleric already has the Endurance feat. I'm contemplating taking a level of the Unbreakable fighter archetype when I hit 5th. Do I just get Diehard? Or do I get Diehard plus another combat feat?
"Tough as Nails: An unbreakable gains Endurance and Die Hard as bonus feats. This ability replaces the fighter's 1st-level bonus feat."
Endurance twice does nothing, so yes, you just get Die Hard.
I remember reading a definition of bonus feat that indicated you could rechoose if you already had it, but that might've been in 3.5, because I certainly can't find such a reference now.
"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned."
As Endurance was not taken as a Bonus Feat, you can't learn a new feat in place of it.
However, as a DM, I would rather have you re-arrange your feat choice than have you re-roll a new* character that is coincidentally the same as the old character but with a more properly planned feat selection. Unless there's some real critical reason why you would have wanted and needed Endurance as a cleric I don't think it's a big deal to fix it.
Just a note, there are a few ways to be able to sleep in armor already. +5000 gp on magical armor to be able to do it, from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. I think, at least.
And you guys are getting a lot more night time encounters than us, I think.
If you are worshiping Desna, then this is a useful cloak. Heck, even if you don't worship her, you still get the Sleep in Medium Armor benefit.
Just a note, there are a few ways to be able to sleep in armor already. +5000 gp on magical armor to be able to do it, from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. I think, at least.
As an ultra cheap alternative you can also just sleep in a chain shirt. There is no penalty for sleeping in light armor if I recall correctly and a chain shirt is not too far off AC wise from Breastplate armor.
Or get medium armor made of mithril, which still required medium prof to wear (which you have) but is considered light armor, hence you can sleep in it.
When I GM I allow players to respec their character based on if the player could make a character of the same level "better" then one who played their way to that level. As a GM I don't want characters who level their character up to be at a disadvantage to characters made at a specific level. Otherwise you will get silliness such as suggested by Grick above. So when you talk to your GM I would come at it from that perspective as it seems a reasonable one.
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As an ultra cheap alternative you can also just sleep in a chain shirt. There is no penalty for sleeping in light armor if I recall correctly and a chain shirt is not too far off AC wise from Breastplate armor.
The fighter in our party has a +1 chain shirt that he refers to as his jammies. He wears full plate most of the day and then changes at bedtime. Sure, it isn't nearly as good as the full plate but it beats having nothing by quite a bit.
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The obvious answer is "don't take feats your class gets for free later".
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The obvious answer is "don't take feats your class gets for free later".Yeah, except this class option wasn't available when I took the feat (it's from UC), so how was I to know? Heck, I'd only barely looked into multiclassing when I picked my 3rd-level feat.
My houserule is that players can retrain feats and even archetypes whenever they level up, provided that the new feat meets the rules for the original source of the feat and the change does not create any contradiction in the rules (i.e. breaking prerequisites) or in the story (i.e. lacking a feat that the character obviously used recently).
The main two reasons I do this are illustated by DarthEnder and tjlatta above.
"Don't take feats your class gets free later." That's terrible. A feat is offered as a bonus feat in a class because that feat is a natural fit for the class. Taking that feat makes the character a better example of the class. Yet the rules as written penalize the character for doing so, because he ends up in the long run with one fewer feat. A player who wants to play a rugged ranger who took Endurance at first level gains nothing from the Endurance given automatically at third level. A smarter player who skips Endurance at first level because of DarthEnder's advice ends up ahead, but he has to roleplay a character who prefers to sleep in pajamas rather than hardened hide for the first two levels of ranger. Even optional cases have a bad flavor: a wizard who grabbed a lot of metamagic and item creation feats early with his character-level feats might find nothing left that he wants to take with his 15th-level wizard bonus feat. Should I force him to take yet another item-creation or metamagic feat to embrace the nature of a class that he has already done an excellent job in embracing? I prefer not.
And should I tell players who buy a new sourcebook from Paizo and want to test out the wonderful new material, "Sorry, that archetype fits your character concept beautifully, but you started your character without it and it is too late to change." Or in tjlatta's case, claim that lack of planning penalizes him even though he had no way to plan. I want to encourage using the material Paizo puts out, not hinder it.
Under my house rule, tjlatta would retrain his cleric/fighter out of the Endurance feat that he took as a third-level feat during the same leveling up in which he gains the Endurance feat for Unbreakable Fighter. The character in-game would see nothing change about his Endurance ability, he would just laugh about how he was no softie even before he started his Unbreakable training.
This is sort of the same issue with bonus spells known for sorcerer bloodlines. If I play a fire elemental sorcerer, I have to wait until third level to know burning hands or be down a spell known at that level. Sure, at fourth level I can retrain the first burning hands to something else, but then the same thing happens at fifth level with another obvious spell, scorching ray, so as a fire specialist, where the power of fire is literally in my blood, I'm using one of my class features every two levels to unlearn a fire spell, or else I have to wait one or two levels before I know an iconic fire spell in the first place.
Thanks, Nazard, for pointing that out. I will have to tell the players who play sorcerers in my games that I will also allow retraining for spells duplicated by bonus spells.
Also thank you for the word "iconic." I could think of "natural fit" and "exemplar," but "iconic" is the word I wanted. In my games, a player should not have his character penalized for taking an iconic ability early. Even if he took the ability in another class--that is just a good backstory indication that the character always had leanings toward the second class.
By the way, I do have limits on my retraining rules. I did not let a player with a bard 1/wizard 10 retrain away his bard level for another level of wizard. Sorry, but his character seriously and irrevocably trained as a bard before he decided that wizard was his true vocation.
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I generally let my players retrain one option at each levelup. Anything beyond that is subject to DM discretion. An example was a character who did not realize his fighter already had a proficiency he had taken as a feat. I allowed him to pick a different feat to correct the error on the spot.
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I'm pretty generous about allowing retraining or even total rebuilding of a character, provided the basic themes and capabilities are more or less the same. System mastery is something that can be learned, not something that should be expected from every player right out of the gate.
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I'm pretty generous about allowing retraining or even total rebuilding of a character, provided the basic themes and capabilities are more or less the same. System mastery is something that can be learned, not something that should be expected from every player right out of the gate.
Or, you know, when the rules get refined :-)
Or, you know, when the rules get refined :-)
Well, yeah, that too. Seems like I'm at a point of diminishing returns, though -- I think a reasonable end is in sight, if I can crank out the last few lingering items.
We were in the middle of our first Epic game when we tried out retraining rules. It got bad enough that we were coming to the game with a different character sheet each week. Definitely something that needs to be done in moderation.
I let them use retraining, but I use the Unearthed Arcana version, where they can alter one thing each time they level; it really doesn't have a huge impact from what I can tell.
We were technically using the UA retraining rules, but the DM was pretty lax. As I mentioned upthread, I learned from that experience.
And for anyone referring to this later, I believe we both mean the Player's Handbook II retraining rules. I realized after the fact that I'd given the wrong source ...
*thread necro*
What about if you get the same fixed bonus feat twice? I.e. Spellslinger 1 gets Gunsmithing as a bonus feat, now multiclass into cleric or inquisitor with the Blackpowder inquisition that also grants Gunsmithing as a bonus feat. Would you allow a substitute feat?
My off the cuff answer to something like that would be no.
In the case of gunsmithing it's more or less required to make the class/archetype work rather and subbing in another feat for it doesn't feel right.
That is different than say a Lore Warden who wants Combat Expertise as a feat at level 1 when they get it as a bonus feat at level 2, which I would allow retraining for.
The Ultimate Campaign rules for retraining are the official solution to your problem. At this point, you have Endurance twice, once as a standard feat selection and once as a free bonus feat from your fighter archetype. Having that feat twice provides no benefit, so you would want to retrain one of them away. Since Endurance from the fighter archetype is built into the archetype, you would retrain the first Endurance feat you got and replace it with something more useful. This will cost you a little bit of time and money. If your GM is generous, you may be able to talk him into waiving those costs.
*thread necro*
What about if you get the same fixed bonus feat twice? I.e. Spellslinger 1 gets Gunsmithing as a bonus feat, now multiclass into cleric or inquisitor with the Blackpowder inquisition that also grants Gunsmithing as a bonus feat. Would you allow a substitute feat?
No i dont give a paladin 6 bonus feats for the weapon and armor proffs he already have if he takes a figther level.
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If you are going by RAW, then you are out of luck.
However, for home games, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that most GMs would be willing to work something out.
In most cases, I would give the player the option to choose another feat that they would normally qualify for.
...but as Cap. Darling pointed out, I would not let the player take alternate feats due to getting a new level 1 class.
You can retrain it using the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules.
If your group doesn't use that book, you can still ask your GM to rebuild your feats, due to new materials beings used now.