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Does Anyone Else Hate Gunslingers


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A level 7 gunslinger using 'Targeting' can automatically confuse, disarm, or knock a target prone on a successful ranged touch attack. There is no limit on how large the opponent can be (Storm Giant) and no CMB roll against the targets CMD. It just happens. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know of any other ability in the game that bypasses CMD like that. A 7th level gunslinger and one or two friends can kill a 20th level fighter by consistently shooting the weapon out of his hand every round with no difficulty at all. Big bad fights with 'boss' type enemies are disgustingly anticlimactic.

Here's what you can do;

Any time an adventure requires the party to battle 'fighters', replace them with gunslingers of the same level. Have the gunslingers spread out to avoid area of effect spells and target one person each round. If your players complain remind them that all the classes are balanced and that this is fair. I'm sure they'll agree.

At the onset of every combat with intelligent enemies who are able to communicate have them all attack the gunslinger and kill him before moving on to any other member of the party. This includes spells, arrows, etc. If the player is that dangerous then tactically speaking he has to die first. If your players complain remind them that firearms are scary and guaranteed to cause massive amounts of damage every round with little to no effort, so logically the answer is to kill the one using them.


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Mannimark wrote:


A level 7 gunslinger using 'Targeting' can automatically confuse, disarm, or knock a target prone on a successful ranged touch attack. There is no limit on how large the opponent can be (Storm Giant) and no CMB roll against the targets CMD. It just happens. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know of any other ability in the game that bypasses CMD like that. A 7th level gunslinger and one or two friends can kill a 20th level fighter by consistently shooting the weapon out of his hand every round with no difficulty at all. Big bad fights with 'boss' type enemies are disgustingly anticlimactic.

Here's what you can do;

Any time an adventure requires the party to battle 'fighters', replace them with gunslingers of the same level. Have the gunslingers spread out to avoid area of effect spells and target one person each round. If your players complain remind them that all the classes are balanced and that this is fair. I'm sure they'll agree.

At the onset of every combat with intelligent enemies who are able to communicate have them all attack the gunslinger and kill him before moving on to any other member of the party. This includes spells, arrows, etc. If the player is that dangerous then tactically speaking he has to die first. If your players complain remind them that firearms are scary and guaranteed to cause massive amounts of damage every round with little to no effort, so logically the answer is to kill the one using them.

Why would you necro a thread just to be super wrong about everything?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
i curse Paizo under my breath every time i flip through those pages. had they said we're making a new world that has guns in it here is a class you can use, then i wouldnt care... but people walking around with guns, and guns that suck by comparison to other forms of attacks, just seems like paizo catered to people who wanted them because "its cool".

This attitude never ceases to disgust me. Heaven forbid a company whose job is to produce a game based around imagination and to do so for a niche market cater to their customer base who wants things in their game to be "cool."

Its posts like this that just continue to reinforce the stormwind falacy and give optimizers a bad name as "roll players."

Actually what it proves is that the Stormwind "Falacy" isn't always fallacious.

Silver Crusade

Mannimark wrote:


A level 7 gunslinger using 'Targeting' can automatically confuse, disarm, or knock a target prone on a successful ranged touch attack. There is no limit on how large the opponent can be (Storm Giant) and no CMB roll against the targets CMD. It just happens. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know of any other ability in the game that bypasses CMD like that. A 7th level gunslinger and one or two friends can kill a 20th level fighter by consistently shooting the weapon out of his hand every round with no difficulty at all. Big bad fights with 'boss' type enemies are disgustingly anticlimactic.

Except that the level 20 fighter is already immune to disarm attempt, or has a simple locked gauntlet because the DM isn't dumb ? Or that you may instead be a fighter that instead disarms, trips and deals damage in the same round by succeeding at a futile roll thanks to feats and bonuses to maneuvers ?

Quote:

Here's what you can do;

Any time an adventure requires the party to battle 'fighters', replace them with gunslingers of the same level. Have the gunslingers spread out to avoid area of effect spells and target one person each round. If your players complain remind them that all the classes are balanced and that this is fair. I'm sure they'll agree.

And I'll send 4 core monks against a caster party. I'm sure everyone will agree that the core monk is overpowered this way. Or I'll simply lose my weapon, charge the gunslinger, and punch him to death since I'm pretty sure using a full-round action to make me lose my weapon is only going to make the gunslinger's death more painful.

Quote:
At the onset of every combat with intelligent enemies who are able to communicate have them all attack the gunslinger and kill him before moving on to any other member of the party. This includes spells, arrows, etc. If the player is that dangerous then tactically speaking he has to die first. If your players complain remind them that firearms are scary and guaranteed to cause massive amounts of damage every round with little to no effort, so logically the answer is to kill the one using them.

Theorycrafting. Except if you are the "broken" cristal-cannon pistolero with 200+DPR and 22 AC.

I've built a level 14 musketeer for a fellow player that hits touch AC from 16 squares afar, has 32 AC, +9 Init and a DB musket that deals a potential 24d12+80+2d6+6d10 on a deadshot critical hit. Players complained that Touch AC or targeting was "OMG BROKEN !"... at first.
Two sessions later, the fighter archer is still dominating DPR even if the DM loves big monsters with high AC, and now everyone blushes and looks the other way when someone is pretending for fun that "oh yeah, the musketeer is so OMG BROKEN, isn't it dudes ?".


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Gunslingers aren't broken - they are wonky and silly.

Grand Lodge

Vinland Forever wrote:
I LOVE the idea of guns in Pathfinder, but I really do think that if they are going to be used, they should be the primary weapons. There is a reason other weapons went out of fashion when they came along. That said, my issue with the gunslinger are more flavor than mechanical. If I am going to have guns in a campaign, everyone should have them.

Well...except they're considered comparatively impractical when you can just Fireball someone instead...which is why they're only considered a legitimate form of weaponry in the one magic-free zone in the Inner Sea...

I've also never found gunslingers that unattractive. Jesus, just take a look at the Summoner, or a properly built range Paladin, or a God Wizard. Any class, if built properly, or sometimes even just built somewhat intelligently, can be dangerous. I mean, just with the examples above, the Summoner can cast battlefield control AND has a mini-fighter who can, at higher levels, make up to 9 ATTACKS PER ROUND, as well as all of those other nifty abilities like making ALL 9 attacks flaming or shocking or what-not, or to trip with half of them...or to grapple or rake or pounce, etc. A range paladin with rapid shot while smiting evil is a true bastion of horrible pain...and a God wizard, if done right...*shudder*

See, all classes have the potential to be broken. Out of them, the gunslinger is just slightly easier to break. No biggie. Besides, I like the flavor, and would like to point out that as badass as guns seem to be, I'd remind you that a longbow deals the same damage as a pistol, has longer range, is easier to use with things like Rapid Shot, since the number of feats and abilities you need is smaller...and...oh, right, it doesn't explode when you botch your attack roll...


I hate them, I don't allow them. The gun tech is all messed up, and you don't get gunslingers until six shooters. Not a fan of six shooters in fantasy, don't mind some blackpowder weapons, I will give out proficiency in them if they are in the setting, but then it is a single shot tool, not something a class is based around.

I know enough about gunpowder weapons to know that the loading time is all wrong. Matchlocks and flintlocks cannot be loaded quickly, blackpowder revolvers are also slow loading until the birth of the cartridge.

So no ridiculous quick loading negating AOOs in my game, when gunpowder weapons are present.


Gunslinger is one of my favorite classes. My only regret is that so very few DMs will let me run around with a pair of revolvers. Yes, I am something of a western nut, why do you ask? ^^;;;


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I hate them, I don't allow them. The gun tech is all messed up, and you don't get gunslingers until six shooters. Not a fan of six shooters in fantasy, don't mind some blackpowder weapons, I will give out proficiency in them if they are in the setting, but then it is a single shot tool, not something a class is based around.

I know enough about gunpowder weapons to know that the loading time is all wrong. Matchlocks and flintlocks cannot be loaded quickly, blackpowder revolvers are also slow loading until the birth of the cartridge.

So no ridiculous quick loading negating AOOs in my game, when gunpowder weapons are present.

Yeah, but you hate fun, so that should be pretty obvious all things told. That's patently false, gunslingers have been around as long as there has been guns, let's take a look at a famous gunslinger in a time before Samuel Colt made all men equal, shall we?

I'll start with probably the most famous one: Blackbeard. This is a pirate who carried three brace of pistols (that's 6 pistols for the uninformed) and would only switch to the sword after he'd used them all at least once, probably twice. I also wouldn't put it past him to "borrow" the pistols of his shipmates, but no one mentions him doing it, so it is probably not that important a detail. This man was clearly a gunslinger, having 6 pistols is a ridiculous amount in any era.

They made the loading times short for purpose of fun, because you might as well switch to something else instead of spending 5-10 rounds reloading a gun, especially since they would be absolutely unbalanced if they did the type of damage required to make them viable with that slow a reload speed. Realism is overrated and anyone who wants to bring realism into a game like Pathfinder, needs to get their head examined, because realism goes out the window on page 15, much less the rest of the book.

So the gunslinger would have to make his 5 foot step back his first action? Big deal.


Hmmm couldnt really be bothered to look through all 7 pages here, but noticed that you guys were talking about an optimum gunslinger build. In another thread we are arguing about different ways to achieve the free action reloads, and why weapon cords doesnt work, but gloves of storing do.

anyway if you are interested here he is.

pistolero build:

Level 11 human pistolero (20 PT BUILD)

str: 10
dex: 18 + 2 LEVEL + 2 HUMAN + 4 belt= 26
Con: 12
Int: 8
wis: 13 + 1 LEVEL = 14
cha: 10

HP: 11D10 + 11 + 11 (Favored) = 82.5
AC: 10 + 8 dex + 1 nat + 4 armor + 3 dodge = 26

saves:
fort: 8, reflex: 14, will: 5

feats: rapid reload (duble barreled pistols), point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus (double barrel pistols), precise shot, two wp fighting, improved crit,
improved twf, signature deed (up close and dirty).

Items: +1 greater reliable double barreled pistol. (36k), +1 reliable double barreled pistol (8k),
+1 amulet of nat armor (1k), +4 dex belt (16k), gloves of storing (10k), +2 Mitrhal leather armor (5k),
cracked pale green prism (4k),
2k to bullets, alchemical catridges and random stuff and weapon cords.

4 grit availible.

Attack rutine is +11/+6/+1 from BAB, which is +7/+7/+2/+2/-3 when using twf, and +5/+5/+5/+0/+0/-5 when using rapid shot. Now we use the ability to
fire 2 shots at a time with the gun, and we get +1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/-4/-4/-4/-4/-9/-9. Now we add all of the ekstra to hit modifiers (dex and so on).
which is +8 dex + 1 pb shot + 1 enchant + 1 ion stone + 1 wpf = + 12. and we get +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 against touch ac.

each attack gives 1d8 + 1 enchant + 8 dex + 3d6 + 1 pb = 25 dam

vs ac 14 touch (seems reasonable) this gives 6 * ( 0.95 * 25 + 0.1 * 0.95 * 3 * 14.5) + 4 * ( 0.75 * 25 + 0.1 * 0.75 * 3 * 14.5)
+ 2 * ( 0.5 * 25 + 0.1 * 0.5 * 3 * 14.5) = 297.308 average damage
and 8 bleed damage if spending a grit point.

This attack sequense assumes he fires with both weapons, stores one in glove, reloads the other, retrieves gun, switches gun hands, stores the loaded gun, reloads other gun, and retrives the gun again, for a total of 10 free actions per BAB dualwielding. With the rapid fire this amounts to 34 free actions in one attack sequence. Misfires
are not really a problem as only the offhand can break, and if it does he has 5 grit to keep it functioning. and then repair it after the combat.
Considering that he should earn about 1 grit per turn from killing stuff or making crits. I have not calculated in the fact that if he breaks the weapon,
then the crit will be x2 and not x4, which should reduce the damage slightly.

I also made a version that is with higher saves and such, in which case the damage drops to around 250 dpr, which is still quite high i would say. There is a pretty good opportunity for taking the feat "hammer the gap" because 12 attacks per round is just crazy. But i cant really be bothered with doing those calculations now. Feel free to swap wp focus or somthing for it though and redo the calculations.


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It's actually really nice to have a fantasy setting with firearms rules where it doesn't look like the firearms rules were designed by someone who hates the idea of firearms in a fantasy setting.

Silver Crusade

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

Hmmm couldnt really be bothered to look through all 7 pages here, but noticed that you guys were talking about an optimum gunslinger build. In another thread we are arguing about different ways to achieve the free action reloads, and why weapon cords doesnt work, but gloves of storing do.

anyway if you are interested here he is.

Double-barrel attacks don't work this way, and you're still missing the effects of misfire, that will happen more than expected even with a greater reliable firearm because of alchemical cartridges.

Misfire makes both double-tap bullets miss, giving -2 to attack and damage and making the pistol a 20x2 weapon.

Also, you can't have a "mithral leather" armor. It's leather, not metal.
Fun fact is that your build isn't even optimized.

But nope, I'll not go back to the previous thread nor continue about this topic on this one, I'm tired of quoting the rules to people.
Not even accounting that it has already been proven that a high level gunslinger isn't broken ; even less at lower levels.


Joyd wrote:
It's actually really nice to have a fantasy setting with firearms rules where it doesn't look like the firearms rules were designed by someone who hates the idea of firearms in a fantasy setting.

Now if only there hadn't been a occupy Golerion march to nerf them into near uselessness with

High reload times.

Actual critical failures.

Being more expensive than full-plate.


Blue Star wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I hate them, I don't allow them. The gun tech is all messed up, and you don't get gunslingers until six shooters. Not a fan of six shooters in fantasy, don't mind some blackpowder weapons, I will give out proficiency in them if they are in the setting, but then it is a single shot tool, not something a class is based around.

I know enough about gunpowder weapons to know that the loading time is all wrong. Matchlocks and flintlocks cannot be loaded quickly, blackpowder revolvers are also slow loading until the birth of the cartridge.

So no ridiculous quick loading negating AOOs in my game, when gunpowder weapons are present.

Yeah, but you hate fun, so that should be pretty obvious all things told. That's patently false, gunslingers have been around as long as there has been guns, let's take a look at a famous gunslinger in a time before Samuel Colt made all men equal, shall we?

I'll start with probably the most famous one: Blackbeard. This is a pirate who carried three brace of pistols (that's 6 pistols for the uninformed) and would only switch to the sword after he'd used them all at least once, probably twice. I also wouldn't put it past him to "borrow" the pistols of his shipmates, but no one mentions him doing it, so it is probably not that important a detail. This man was clearly a gunslinger, having 6 pistols is a ridiculous amount in any era.

They made the loading times short for purpose of fun, because you might as well switch to something else instead of spending 5-10 rounds reloading a gun, especially since they would be absolutely unbalanced if they did the type of damage required to make them viable with that slow a reload speed. Realism is overrated and anyone who wants to bring realism into a game like Pathfinder, needs to get their head examined, because realism goes out the window on page 15, much less the rest of the book.

So the gunslinger would have to make his 5 foot step back his first action? Big deal.

:D

Yep, I hate fun. I game to enter a world without fun, to make my experiences as dull as possible, I am a force of ennui.

Anyway, on to gunslingers. Just because blackbeard used a number of pistols, doesn't make him a gunslinger and a member of the gunslinger class. He didn't just solely use guns. He was also a captain, a commander of men and truly fearsome in hand to hand if the stories can be believed. Doesn't sound like a pure gunslinger to me, we don't hear of his ridiculous and impossible ability to load blackpowder weapons in a few seconds. Ridiculous loading rules on firearms, completely uninterested in them. I've watched re-enactors load blackpowder weapons, it takes ages, as it should.

I've run pirate and early gunpowder games. The guns don't define classes, they are one-shot weapons. Players took a brace, sure, some even had a blunderbuss or a long arm, but there was no need for the gunslinger, and slinging guns wasn't their main actions or focus. It was what they used in the first round. Fighters, barbs, sorcerers can use the firearms of a setting without the gunslinger class rearing its head. It is superfluous, un-needed.

I know the class makes some people really happy, they can mix their wild west with their fantasy, they can jump centuries ahead in tech while others use bows, swords and axes. Characters remain authentically fantasy, while someone wants to play the high tech six-gun gunslinger. Some people just want to shoot things with their powerful smoking guns, they want the fast reload, they don't want to get in close or be a spellcaster. I get that. There is a lot of gun romanticism. Unfortunately, the gunslinger and the sudden jump ahead in gun tech is a bit ridiculous, as is the fast loading with no attack of opportunity. Paizo is trying to cram too much into its fantasy. Elements that are considered cool, but which don't really fit. That is what I hate, not fun, but something being put in where it doesn't belong.

Next world, going dark souls inspired, there are no firearms. Heavy melee world.


"I reckon we can't have a proper naval battle with pirates."

"Why?"

"No rules for Cannons, or Flintlocks. We'll have to use spells and crossbows."

"Oh come on! You're telling me that in a setting that has Alchemists that mix and toss bombs at people, magic potions, and tendertwigs, that NOBODY has come up with gunpowder?!"

"Yeah, but if we DID include rules, it'd take forever to reload! I mean, FLINTLOCKS man!"

"Sometimes, you need to sacrifice real world logic for game logic. Nobody's going to use a weapon that does no damage and takes ten rounds to reload! I want Cannons and Flintlocks and Pirates!"

"I do love Pirates...And I do love cannons. Hey, we could also maybe have rules for revolvers, in case someone wants to play a Gunslinger."

"Dude, lets do it! Hey...Gunslinger...CLASS IDEA!"

-------

Now, I'm not saying that's what the designers were thinking. It's just a guess. And frankly, I love them for it.

Because at the end of the day, I want to walk into a bar with two six guns and a Gunslinger's heart. I want to command the seven seas with a 40 gun Frigate ready to take the heart of a nations merchant shipping. And to do that, I need basic guns and the ability to actually use them.

Now that I have these things, I will fight to keep them! VIVA LA PISTOLERO! Bullets for EVERYONE! :D

Because even if you don't like having guns in your game, isn't the option of having a game set on the High Seas in an age of Piracy wonderful? How about the game where a Gunslinger becomes Sheriff of a dusty town being raided by orcs? Options my friend, they are what make a good game strong. :D


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Ridiculous loading rules on firearms, completely uninterested in them. I've watched re-enactors load blackpowder weapons, it takes ages, as it should.

As someone who WAS one of those re-enactors, I of all people know what a hell it is to reload. (And we're not even putting the bullet or the ramrod in).

Does that mean I think ridiculous rules for firearm loading are dumb? No. Not only is it necessary to balance guns, but this is F-A-N-T-A-S-Y. You've got Fighters who can trip giants, and archers who can shoot two arrows at once. There's nothing realistic about THAT. Why not a Gunslinger who can do some fancy twirly whirly reloading shmanticks?


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Not to mention people who can reload winch style crossbows 6 or more times in 6 seconds.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

fun, to make my experiences as dull as possible, I am a force of ennui.

Anyway, on to gunslingers. Just because blackbeard used a number of pistols, doesn't make him a gunslinger and a member of the gunslinger class. He didn't just solely use guns. He was also a captain, a commander of men and truly fearsome in hand to hand if the stories can be believed. Doesn't sound like a pure gunslinger to me, we don't hear of his ridiculous and impossible ability to load blackpowder weapons in a few seconds.

Yeah, it does. Gunslingers are proficient in all martial weapons and have full bab.

No class has bonuses to being a captain or commander.
He couldn't find any alchemy bullets so he didn't reload guns, just shot them.
Quote:


I know the class makes some people really happy, they can mix their wild west with their fantasy, they can jump centuries ahead in tech while others use bows, swords and axes.

Unfortunately, the gunslinger and the sudden jump ahead in gun tech is a bit ridiculous, as is the fast loading with no attack of opportunity. Paizo is trying to cram too much into its fantasy. Elements that are considered cool, but which don't really fit. That is what I hate, not fun, but something being put in where it doesn't belong.

You do realize in Pathfinder it isn't a jump in tech as the world always had these technology; it was just recently the rest of the world acquired them.


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In my world, Clangaden, god of the forge, invented guns and only his chosen can build them. They suffer the wrath of all the gods if they sell them, so they only get into the market when a GS dies.

Clangaden is trying to increase their prestige so that the followers of other gods demand them for themselves. He does this to make all men equal.


Starbuck_II wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

fun, to make my experiences as dull as possible, I am a force of ennui.

Anyway, on to gunslingers. Just because blackbeard used a number of pistols, doesn't make him a gunslinger and a member of the gunslinger class. He didn't just solely use guns. He was also a captain, a commander of men and truly fearsome in hand to hand if the stories can be believed. Doesn't sound like a pure gunslinger to me, we don't hear of his ridiculous and impossible ability to load blackpowder weapons in a few seconds.

Yeah, it does. Gunslingers are proficient in all martial weapons and have full bab.

No class has bonuses to being a captain or commander.
He couldn't find any alchemy bullets so he didn't reload guns, just shot them.
Quote:


I know the class makes some people really happy, they can mix their wild west with their fantasy, they can jump centuries ahead in tech while others use bows, swords and axes.

Unfortunately, the gunslinger and the sudden jump ahead in gun tech is a bit ridiculous, as is the fast loading with no attack of opportunity. Paizo is trying to cram too much into its fantasy. Elements that are considered cool, but which don't really fit. That is what I hate, not fun, but something being put in where it doesn't belong.

You do realize in Pathfinder it isn't a jump in tech as the world always had these technology; it was just recently the rest of the world acquired them.

1) They have the bab and other proficiencies, and that is one of the reason they are not needed. Other classes can be temporary gunners. I heard they were intended as a fighter variant, well if I am running a gunpowder setting (I've run two such games), the full bab classes with exposure to firearm tech get proficiency in them. So Sargavan fighters can use firearms. Other classes, get usage in long arms or pistols. Also allowed a small number of feats to make one better at their usage, and given pre rifling firearms were a bit inaccurate, I made the shot force a reflex save in the target along the line. Not actually an attack roll, and the damage was good. So all classes can shoot the one-shot weapons, and yes, a wizard can have a couple of flintlock pistols as back-ups. I saw no need for them to be a separate class, to have classes that were gods of the primitive and rarely used guns, unless you are in the wild west, different tech, more guns in play type setting.

2) No class has bonuses to commanding? There is the 3.5 marshal, there are some rules for the cavalier. I've run pirate captains as marshal/rogues. It really works.

3) "He couldn't find any alchemy bullets so he didn't reload guns, just shot them." Mmm, so a few rounds of shooting his one shot weapons was just a fraction of what he did that day, before moving onto other things, like giving orders or close fighting. He doesn't sound like much of a gunslinger to me. Throwing some sand in someone's eye before a fight does not make the sandslinger class justified.

4) "You do realize in Pathfinder it isn't a jump in tech as the world always had these technology; it was just recently the rest of the world acquired them." Always? Really? So the gun republic has always existed and always had gun tech, at its present level, throughout all of Golarion history? Fascinating.

Nope, it is a badly stuck-on confusion of tech. There as optional rules, there as the identity of one nation. The years of the tech advancement have not to my knowledge, been clarified, please add them if anyone finds them. I want to know how recent the six guns and repeaters are. How long back it was flintlock, matchlock, etc. Because that they have always been there and in use just doesn't make much sense. How did this one country jump so far ahead of others in crafting complex modern weapons? When something is stuck on, shoe-horned in and doesn't seem to fit with the world, it just isn't good enough for me as a DM. So I make adjustments and actually set the damn tech level to something that is plausible (single shot but no repeaters, revolvers or cartridges, no gunslingers because they are just one shot weapons for combatants, and yes, take 5 rounds to load).

A pleasure people.


CommandoDude wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Ridiculous loading rules on firearms, completely uninterested in them. I've watched re-enactors load blackpowder weapons, it takes ages, as it should.

As someone who WAS one of those re-enactors, I of all people know what a hell it is to reload. (And we're not even putting the bullet or the ramrod in).

Does that mean I think ridiculous rules for firearm loading are dumb? No. Not only is it necessary to balance guns, but this is F-A-N-T-A-S-Y. You've got Fighters who can trip giants, and archers who can shoot two arrows at once. There's nothing realistic about THAT. Why not a Gunslinger who can do some fancy twirly whirly reloading shmanticks?

At flintlock tech, after watching some demonstrations and timing them (Japanese arquebusiers are cool people to watch) I put pistols at 5 rounds, muskets and blunderbuss at 6 rounds. What do you think about this amount of time?


3 words "Winch Style Crossbows"


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Ridiculous loading rules on firearms, completely uninterested in them. I've watched re-enactors load blackpowder weapons, it takes ages, as it should.

As someone who WAS one of those re-enactors, I of all people know what a hell it is to reload. (And we're not even putting the bullet or the ramrod in).

Does that mean I think ridiculous rules for firearm loading are dumb? No. Not only is it necessary to balance guns, but this is F-A-N-T-A-S-Y. You've got Fighters who can trip giants, and archers who can shoot two arrows at once. There's nothing realistic about THAT. Why not a Gunslinger who can do some fancy twirly whirly reloading shmanticks?

At flintlock tech, after watching some demonstrations and timing them (Japanese arquebusiers are cool people to watch) I put pistols at 5 rounds, muskets and blunderbuss at 6 rounds. What do you think about this amount of time?

My firearms do a bit more damage. I put the times at about 10 and 20 rounds, and concider the rapid reload feat as what brings it closer to your numbers - all gunners in my game have rapid reload. If you use those times, people with the feat will still be superhuman.


#1: Thread necromancy sucks raw chicken butt.

#2: We used firearms in our D&D game before Pathfinder existed. Nothing broke. We use them now that Pathfinder has official rules. Not only has nothing broken, but it's even more fun now.

#3: I find it alarming that people continue to believe that just because they cannot manage a thing, or a thing is not fun for them, that somehow means it is universally broken, or objectively wrong. Since as many people claim that thing is not broken and is fun, as claim the opposite, it should seem apparent to anybody of sufficient enough IQ to spell their own name correctly, that there is no one hard and fast, objective truth on this. It is a matter of what we as individuals can deal with in our games.

#4: I see the Stormwind Fallacy has been invoked. I was there, in that thread, way back when it was an actual live thread on the WoTC boards. I hated the name then, and I hate it now. Stormwind did not come up with anything so original that a whole fallacy ought to be named for him. Wikipedia knows which fallacies are which: Pick one and stick with it by its real name.

I don't begrudge people their 15 minutes, usually. But there's nothing so profound about what he said that day that most of us didn't already know it. Let's stop memorializing somebody who just stated the obvious merely based on how seemingly profound the obvious was that day when a particularly large number of stubborn people stuck to bad positions just because they were in the heat of battle. I mean, he was one of several people who said the same thing in the thread, and nobody is celebrating the rest of them.

I know I'm ranting, but for cryin' out loud. Enough. No more gunslinger. No more hate. No more Stormwind. No more naming fallacies facetiously. No more thread resurrections, now --- I mean it!!!


As to #4 I have begun calling it the Mustache Fallacy I'll see if i can find the thread that started that.


1. Many people hate new threads on old topics so either way someone will complain. You might as well do whatever is convenient for you.

3. I fully agree. I don't know if you were around for the paladin/smite is broken/OP threads, but......

4. It is catchy and easy to remember, and a lot easier than picking a fallacy or combination of fallacies from wikipedia or any other source.


"Stormwind fallacy" is a convenient term for a specific false dichotomy/other stuff mishmash that crops up pretty regularly in tabletop RPG discussions. If someone wants to try to get some other name to stick, or to get people to refer to it as the totally-as-catchy "false notion that roleplaying and rollplaying preclude/exclude/whatever each other or that intentionally sacrificing the latter is necessary to do a good job at the former" they're welcome to try, but "Stormwind Fallacy" has quite a bit of inertia at this point, and is effectively what that particular error is called in practice, whether someone is sadface that TS has a fallacy named after him or not.

Note that if I could snap my fingers and get a different term for the fallacy in common use I probably would, but because the current name doesn't really suggest to the uninitiated what on earth the fallacy refers to, not because I feel that TS's name being attached to it is some kind of travesty of justice.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Mustache Fallacy the theory that if a player has a great mustache he obviously can't have optimized his character since the great mustace requires so much dedication.


cranewings wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Ridiculous loading rules on firearms, completely uninterested in them. I've watched re-enactors load blackpowder weapons, it takes ages, as it should.

As someone who WAS one of those re-enactors, I of all people know what a hell it is to reload. (And we're not even putting the bullet or the ramrod in).

Does that mean I think ridiculous rules for firearm loading are dumb? No. Not only is it necessary to balance guns, but this is F-A-N-T-A-S-Y. You've got Fighters who can trip giants, and archers who can shoot two arrows at once. There's nothing realistic about THAT. Why not a Gunslinger who can do some fancy twirly whirly reloading shmanticks?

At flintlock tech, after watching some demonstrations and timing them (Japanese arquebusiers are cool people to watch) I put pistols at 5 rounds, muskets and blunderbuss at 6 rounds. What do you think about this amount of time?
My firearms do a bit more damage. I put the times at about 10 and 20 rounds, and concider the rapid reload feat as what brings it closer to your numbers - all gunners in my game have rapid reload. If you use those times, people with the feat will still be superhuman.

Ha ha, yeah, and there was a player that still wanted them to do even more damage and to have even shorter times.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

3.5, my players didn't care about reload times. Sometimes a pc that was otherwise useless that fight would reload for them, but mostly they got around it by walking around like Blackbeard. They would fire their musket, then draw one or two of their four pistols before going to the sword.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Ridiculous loading rules on firearms, completely uninterested in them. I've watched re-enactors load blackpowder weapons, it takes ages, as it should.

As someone who WAS one of those re-enactors, I of all people know what a hell it is to reload. (And we're not even putting the bullet or the ramrod in).

Does that mean I think ridiculous rules for firearm loading are dumb? No. Not only is it necessary to balance guns, but this is F-A-N-T-A-S-Y. You've got Fighters who can trip giants, and archers who can shoot two arrows at once. There's nothing realistic about THAT. Why not a Gunslinger who can do some fancy twirly whirly reloading shmanticks?

At flintlock tech, after watching some demonstrations and timing them (Japanese arquebusiers are cool people to watch) I put pistols at 5 rounds, muskets and blunderbuss at 6 rounds. What do you think about this amount of time?

An archer can't actually shoot two arrows at once. Or cock his bow in one round. Or crank a crossbow winch in that time either. But in Pathfinder you can.

If you say Guns can't reload that fast, then I say bows can't reload that fast either. But because this is Pathfinder, they can.

Any reload action that takes longer than 1 round makes a weapon not viable.

What I think is that you have a personal aversion to firearms in Pathfinder that allows you to talk about how unreal they are, but ignore all the other unreal aspects of other martial weapons.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

So no ridiculous quick loading negating AOOs in my game, when gunpowder weapons are present.

When using Lightning Reload, you don't start just negating every AOO, it's once per round, one barrel no AOO. I guess 2 if you have rapid reload, but still. Not game breaking, especially if you're a pistolero who will have 6 attacks or more in a round at 11th level. That's still 4 AOOs ripe for the beating.

Silver Crusade

The Pathfinder Ninjas will not sneak in and kill you if you say no to a Gunslinger in your game so where's the problem?

Just say no!


shallowsoul wrote:

The Pathfinder Ninjas will not sneak in and kill you if you say no to a Gunslinger in your game so where's the problem?

Just say no!

If you say no to one class, that opens up the ability to say no to any class.

I don't believe in that.


CommandoDude wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

The Pathfinder Ninjas will not sneak in and kill you if you say no to a Gunslinger in your game so where's the problem?

Just say no!

If you say no to one class, that opens up the ability to say no to any class.

I don't believe in that.

I do. I build my game around the ban hammer. Nothing ruins the feel of a game faster than a player not playing along.


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@3.5L: Your argument is flawed because you are bringing realism into a place where it doesn't exist.

Andoran

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Everything is subject to DM approval.

Everything.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:

Everything is subject to DM approval.

Everything.

What about the rule that everything is subject to DM approval?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yep.

Silver Crusade

CommandoDude wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

The Pathfinder Ninjas will not sneak in and kill you if you say no to a Gunslinger in your game so where's the problem?

Just say no!

If you say no to one class, that opens up the ability to say no to any class.

I don't believe in that.

That doesn't open up anything because that is already a rule that is in place. A DM has the right to say no to "any" class and race.

Also, if you actually read the section on firearms it talks about "if a DM allows firearms in his campaign".

Ultimate Combat page 8:

Game Masters are encouraged to allow players to
choose freely from these classes and other additional
rules and options in this book, but each GM must make
a personal decision about what is and isn’t allowed in
her campaign, as well as the relative prevalence of
such character classes in her world. The new options
presented in this book are intended to be a toolbox—not
a straitjacket.

Ultimate Combat page 135:

Firearms in Your Campaign
Firearms and gunslingers are not for every campaign, and
even if you are excited about introducing firearms into
your campaign, you should still make a decision about
how commonplace they are. The following are broad
categories of firearm rarity and the rules that govern
them. Pathfinder’s world of Golarion uses the rules for
emerging guns, which is also the default category of gun
rarity detailed in this Pathfinder RPG supplement.
No Guns: If you do not want guns in your campaign,
simply don’t allow the rules that follow. The Pathfinder
Roleplaying Game plays perfectly well without them.
Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced
firearms, the gunslinger class, the Amateur Gunslinger
feat, and archetypes that use the firearm rules do not
exist in this type of campaign. Firearms are treated more
like magic items—things of wonder and mystery—rather
than like things that are mass-produced. Few know the
strange secrets of firearm creation. Only NPCs can take the
Gunsmithing feat.
Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common.
They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths,
dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret
is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses
guns. The baseline gunslinger rules and the prices for
ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of
campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively
rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Craft
Firearms feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced
firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—
the stuff of high-level treasure troves.
Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky
to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of
requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms
are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition
cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced
firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the
full price to purchase or craft.
Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early
firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms
are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early
firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought
or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The
gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead
gains the gun training class feature at 1st level.


cranewings wrote:
3.5, my players didn't care about reload times. Sometimes a pc that was otherwise useless that fight would reload for them, but mostly they got around it by walking around like Blackbeard. They would fire their musket, then draw one or two of their four pistols before going to the sword.

Nice, mine were the same. Musket loading doesn't really work in dnd's normal battle time, that doesn't mean you can't carry a brace and let them have it all before melee. You can make it work, make it a round, but that is just silly.


shallowsoul wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

The Pathfinder Ninjas will not sneak in and kill you if you say no to a Gunslinger in your game so where's the problem?

Just say no!

If you say no to one class, that opens up the ability to say no to any class.

I don't believe in that.

That doesn't open up anything because that is already a rule that is in place. A DM has the right to say no to "any" class and race.

Also, if you actually read the section on firearms it talks about "if a DM allows firearms in his campaign".

Ultimate Combat page 8:

Game Masters are encouraged to allow players to
choose freely from these classes and other additional
rules and options in this book, but each GM must make
a personal decision about what is and isn’t allowed in
her campaign, as well as the relative prevalence of
such character classes in her world. The new options
presented in this book are intended to be a toolbox—not
a straitjacket.

Ultimate Combat page 135:

Firearms in Your Campaign
Firearms and gunslingers are not for every campaign, and
even if you are excited about introducing firearms into
your campaign, you should still make a decision about
how commonplace they are. The following are broad
categories of firearm rarity and the rules that govern
them. Pathfinder’s world of Golarion uses the rules for
emerging guns, which is also the default category of gun
rarity detailed in this Pathfinder RPG supplement.
No Guns: If you do not want guns in your campaign,
simply don’t allow the rules that follow. The Pathfinder
Roleplaying Game plays perfectly well without them.
Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced
firearms, the gunslinger class, the Amateur Gunslinger
feat, and archetypes that use the firearm rules do not
exist in this type of campaign. Firearms are treated more
like magic items—things of wonder and mystery—rather
than like things that are mass-produced. Few know the
strange secrets of firearm creation. Only NPCs can take the
...

Yep! Cool cool, only had minimal exposure to ultimate combat, long exposure to a certain player asking for gunslingers.

The dm defining what is in and out is something players need to grasp, even if they don't always agree. For instance, two examples: in my golarion, even if I run it ahead a few years (I have done the decade jump thing a bit) guns never become common and gunslingers don't exist. Very rare gun ownership and usage, and it is at flintlock tech in some places. Where the warriors of those places use fireams it is done before going to the next one shot gun, or melee. The other example of what was not put it, what shall not pass, was the alchemist.

See I've had them in as npcs, long time residents of my gaming world. They are in cities and such selling there services, doing there research, trying not to gas their neighbours to death. These little experimenting merchant wizards were so at odds with what the class presented. They weren't the quiet student and wizard of years past, no they made them into action heroes. That didn't work at all with how alchemists were in my games, and it wasn't changing over night.

Another example of what's in and what's not and where this caused problems is trying to explain to a fan of LOTR, that the next game would be non-Tolkienian fantasy. Monsters yeah, monster characters hell yeah, no elves, halflings, gnomes, dwarves or orcs. So no, you can't have an elven sorcerer, there are no elves. When people really expect something it can be hard to get through to them, but take something out, and you can place something in, like new monster pc races and monster civs--which I wish golarion had more of, but that is why we make our own worlds.

Shadow Lodge

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TarkXT wrote:
Me thinks someone has never seen a Zen Archer in action. Forget guns. The little old man with strong arms and years of wisdom is crushing the orc army from a hundreds yards out.

Hell, forget the zen part. A straight fighter who specializes in the composite longbow, with or without the Archer archetype, will put a gunslinger to shame. Plus, arrows don't cost 11 gp a shot.


Make them bow cav, dart in and out of range.


Cheapy wrote:
Luminiere Solas wrote:

i don't get why people see D&D or it's derivatives as medieval european.

you have medieval knights wearing rennaiscane era armor, wielding roman era falcatas, worshipping greek gods, traveling with native american shamans wearing the hides of saharan beasts, who transform into prehistoric dinosaurs who are accompanied by modern japanese schoolgirls wielding Tokugawa Era Daisho and Wearing black pajamas, and old men wearing robes and pointed hats who chant mathematical equations to control reality, on a journey to kill brain eating space aliens, giant sentient firebreathing spellcasting reptiles and sentient jello.

GUNS DON'T BELONG IN MAH SENTIENT JELLO.

There's always room for Jello!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules Subscriber

In our party a new player brought in a gun slinger. We are level 6. The gunslinger specializes in muskets. He does d12 damage plus his dex mod. He hits touch AC. He has loading down to a free action by musket master, rapid reload and the use of paper rounds. He has rapid shot so he shoots one extra shot a round. He rarely uses grit. He seems to use grit on the rare occasion his gun jams. In yesterday's battle, he was hasted, so he was shooting four times a round. He is consistently out damaging the other PC's.

This is my real game experience, not something theoretical. Have others not had this same experience?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

See what you've done, Goth Guru! *frowny face*


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Oscar Mild wrote:

In our party a new player brought in a gun slinger. We are level 6. The gunslinger specializes in muskets. He does d12 damage plus his dex mod. He hits touch AC. He has loading down to a free action by musket master, rapid reload and the use of paper rounds. He has rapid shot so he shoots one extra shot a round. He rarely uses grit. He seems to use grit on the rare occasion his gun jams. In yesterday's battle, he was hasted, so he was shooting four times a round. He is consistently out damaging the other PC's.

This is my real game experience, not something theoretical. Have others not had this same experience?

Don't have all combats within 40 ft of the gunslinger. Note that early firearms only target touch AC within the first range increment. At 6th level, the gunslinger doesn't have a lot of options to target touch AC beyond 40 ft: A +1 distance musket is 9,500 gp (more than half of a 6th level character's recommended wealth on Table 12-4), Deadeye costs 1 grit per range increment, Steady Aim is a move-equivalent action (which precludes full attacks), longshot has a limited duration and is a personal spell (requiring multiclassing, a wand and Use Magic Device checks, or a custom magic item).

40 ft is also within charging distance; have enemies rush at the gunslinger to take him out quickly after he demonstrates how dangerous he is. This is a pretty basic tactic, so it's not like it should come as a surprise.

The issue isn't that the gunslinger is "overpowered," but that the combats are situations that allow the gunslinger the full use of class benefits. It's really not that different than a melee brute in a narrow corridor or a "GOD wizard" going nova with the perfect spells prepared for the day.

Silver Crusade

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Oscar Mild wrote:

In our party a new player brought in a gun slinger. We are level 6. The gunslinger specializes in muskets. He does d12 damage plus his dex mod. He hits touch AC. He has loading down to a free action by musket master, rapid reload and the use of paper rounds. He has rapid shot so he shoots one extra shot a round. He rarely uses grit. He seems to use grit on the rare occasion his gun jams. In yesterday's battle, he was hasted, so he was shooting four times a round. He is consistently out damaging the other PC's.

This is my real game experience, not something theoretical. Have others not had this same experience?

Don't have all combats within 40 ft of the gunslinger. Note that early firearms only target touch AC within the first range increment. At 6th level, the gunslinger doesn't have a lot of options to target touch AC beyond 40 ft: A +1 distance musket is 9,500 gp (more than half of a 6th level character's recommended wealth on Table 12-4), Deadeye costs 1 grit per range increment, Steady Aim is a move-equivalent action (which precludes full attacks), longshot has a limited duration and is a personal spell (requiring multiclassing, a wand and Use Magic Device checks, or a custom magic item).

40 ft is also within charging distance; have enemies rush at the gunslinger to take him out quickly after he demonstrates how dangerous he is. This is a pretty basic tactic, so it's not like it should come as a surprise.

The issue isn't that the gunslinger is "overpowered," but that the combats are situations that allow the gunslinger the full use of class benefits. It's really not that different than a melee brute in a narrow corridor or a "GOD wizard" going nova with the perfect spells prepared for the day.

Agreed! What you can do on paper can be a lot different than what you can do during an actual game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Oscar Mild wrote:

In our party a new player brought in a gun slinger. We are level 6. The gunslinger specializes in muskets. He does d12 damage plus his dex mod. He hits touch AC. He has loading down to a free action by musket master, rapid reload and the use of paper rounds. He has rapid shot so he shoots one extra shot a round. He rarely uses grit. He seems to use grit on the rare occasion his gun jams. In yesterday's battle, he was hasted, so he was shooting four times a round. He is consistently out damaging the other PC's.

This is my real game experience, not something theoretical. Have others not had this same experience?

Don't have all combats within 40 ft of the gunslinger. Note that early firearms only target touch AC within the first range increment. At 6th level, the gunslinger doesn't have a lot of options to target touch AC beyond 40 ft: A +1 distance musket is 9,500 gp (more than half of a 6th level character's recommended wealth on Table 12-4), Deadeye costs 1 grit per range increment, Steady Aim is a move-equivalent action (which precludes full attacks), longshot has a limited duration and is a personal spell (requiring multiclassing, a wand and Use Magic Device checks, or a custom magic item).

40 ft is also within charging distance; have enemies rush at the gunslinger to take him out quickly after he demonstrates how dangerous he is. This is a pretty basic tactic, so it's not like it should come as a surprise.

The issue isn't that the gunslinger is "overpowered," but that the combats are situations that allow the gunslinger the full use of class benefits. It's really not that different than a melee brute in a narrow corridor or a "GOD wizard" going nova with the perfect spells prepared for the day.

Agreed! What you can do on paper can be a lot different than what you can do during an actual game.

To my knowledge, our GS has no magic weaponry. Maybe masterwork. I can't imagine what he would do with fancier weapons and ammo.

Well, I am sure the DM will include some encounters at ranges over 40' in situations we cannot close on the enemy, but I do not expect a slue of them. In you basic encounter against the PC's in marching order, the GS will be within 40' of the baddies, so the problem persists in most situations. And yes, given time to see his power and and assuming an intelligent foe, the baddies may decide to rush the guy with a gun; if they are alive long enough to deduce the proper course of action. True enough.

But, . . . the suggestion that the monsters may recognize his superior threat and single him out for specific, special handling seem to implicitly recognize the fact that the GS is overpowered.

You have made some very good points and appreciate your thoughtful response, but from what I have seen, at least at the level I am playing, the GS class is overpowered. Nothing said so far suggests otherwise.

Thanks for your responses.

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