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Note: This thread is just for fun.
Note2: This thread is just for fun.
I thought it might be amusing to see how we can "break" the CR system by various appliances of templates, optimized NPC's and the like. The point of the thread is NOT to try to "prove" that the CR system is bad, because as we know all systems can be broken. It's just because it's fun to see how well we can optimize things for a given CR.
Using odd interpretations of the rules are okay, but breaking them is not.
My examples:
Once a powerful sorcerer, skilled in necromantic arts, Shezriax made a pact with the lords of hell - in exchange for his loyalty and service, he would not become some lowly dretch upon his death but instead a fiend of some respect. When he died the lords held their promise - he was reborn an incubus. However, he was made small and physically frail, so his struggle in the hells where greater than for most. Despite that, he made it all the way through the promotion - finally ending up as a pit fiend, yet still physically small and weak. Other pit fiends thought him an abomination to pit-fiendness, and so he was sent on dangerous mission after dangerous mission in the hopes that he'd get killed. Finally, during a mission to Golarion he was, but the necromantic powers still flowed through him and he rised as a skeletal champion. Now he haunts Golarion, finding and killing any adventurers he sees, in a vain attempt to get some revenge after dying twice and still not getting rest...
Skezriax, young skeletal champion pit fiend (CR5)
LE diminutive undead (extraplanar)
Init +22; Senses darkvision 60 ft., see in darkness; Perception +35
Aura fear (20 ft., DC 23)
DEFENSE
AC 34, touch 32, flat-footed 16 (+18 Dex, +4 size, +2 natural)
hp 275 (22d8+176); regeneration 5 (good weapons, good spells)
Fort +7, Ref +25, Will +23
DR 15/good and silver, DR 5/bludgeoning; channel resistance +4; Immune fire, poison, cold; Resist acid 10; undead traits; SR 31
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +23 (1d4+6), 2 wings +18 (1d3+3), bite +23 (1d6+6 plus poison and disease), tail slap +18 (1d4+3 plus grab)
Space 5 ft., Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks constrict 1d4+6, devil shaping
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 18th)
At will—blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), greater scrying (DC 25), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, scorching ray, trap the soul (DC 26), unholy aura (DC 26), wall of fire
3/day—quickened fireball (DC 21), quickened empowered wall of fire
1/day—meteor swarm, summon (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower devil, 100%)
1/year—wish
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 47, Con -, Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 26
Base Atk +16; CMB +34 (+38 grapple); CMD 53
Feats Cleave, Empower Spell-like Ability (wall of fire), Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (wall of fire) Vital Strike
Skills Appraise +19, Bluff +30, Diplomacy +30, Disguise +22, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (arcana) +33, Knowledge (planes) +30, Knowledge (religion) +33, Perception +35, Sense Motive +35, Spellcraft +33, Stealth +55, Use Magic Device +30
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
SPECIAL ABILITIES
- Devil Shaping (Su): For details, see Pit Fiend
- Devil Chills: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 20; onset immediate; frequency 1/day; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 3 consecutive saves.
- Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 20; frequency 1/round for 10 rounds; effect 1d6 Con damage; cure 3 consecutive saves.
When scrying around and seeing some group of hapless adventurers, he usually teleports invisibly to their vicinity - preferably when they're asleep, he's a mean bastard. On the first round, he usually casts Mass Hold Monster (DC 27), followed by a quickened empowered wall of fire on as many as possible. Second round he usually mops up survivors through a quickened fireball followed by, if needed, meteor swarm. While he's lost the ability to fly, he often still carries a potion of fly to use as needed.
How it's broken: This is completely RAW and not an interpretation. Skeletal Champion gives a CR equal to skeleton CR+1, skeleton CR is 8 for a 20HD creature. Then it's -4 for applying Young four times, which actually is a beneficial template for a creature without a con score. I DID give him an extra feat in exchange for the double improved initiative. I didn't swap any other feats though (great cleave for weapon finesse? yes please).
On to the second, which is where I got the idea to the thread (from the "staves are to expensive" thread)...
Blinn had always put his nose where he shouldn't. After being relegated from the second school of magic, despite showing some talent, he dedicated his life to full-time arcane burglary. Just lately, he's stolen a wand that looks really pretty, although it IS kinda old and worn. He hasn't had time to identify it, but is looking for a fence for that and some other stuff, when BAM he runs into some holier-than-thou soldier and his pals on some "quest" to stop all the thefts from the mages guild lately... Whoops. What to do? Well, he can test the wand at least!
Blinn CR2
XP 400
Human wizard 1/rogue 2
NE Medium humanoid
Init +6; Senses Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 22 (3 HD; 8+1d8+1d6+6)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +3 (1d4/19-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
STATISTICS
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Weapon finesse, improved initiative, scribe scroll
Skills linguistics +7, knowledge (arcana) +7, spellcraft +7, knowledge (local) +7, stealth +7, perception +4, bluff +4, appraise +5, diplomacy +4, sense motive +4
Languages Common, abyssal, elven, infernal
SQ trapfinding +1
Gear Wand of Summon Monster V (1 charge), dagger, some gems and trinkets worth ~50 gp
If blinn gets initiative, he uses the wand. He doesn't really know what he's doing, but either an infernal bearded devil, a babau, a salalamder or a kyton appears. He hopes for the best when he sees the creature and screams for it to attack, in all languages he can speak. Then he runs.
How it was broken: The rules can be read as that wands with X charges are readily available (75% chance) at X/50 original price. Thus a 1 charge wand of a 4th level spell, such as a summon monster V from a summoner, only costs between 420 and 600 gp. It also requires no checks whatsoever to succeed as long as you have the spell on your list! Since 3rd level heroic classed characters have a 650 gp alotment for weapons, yeah...
So, bring your own overpowered stuff!
The weanie wizard TPK of DOOM(CR7)
This challenge is a combination of the power of the divination school, expendable magic items, and abusing the way that CR increases with numbers to make a very deadly encounter.
CR1 level 1 Human Wizards with level 5 scrolls of fireballs and no other equipment. The scroll costs 375 gold. Each of the Diviners has Magical Lineage(magic missle), Toppling Spell, and Improved Initiative. They memorize nothing but topping magic missles. Give them commoner stats, which gives them str 8, dex 14, con 10, int 12, wis 10, cha 8.
Everytime you double the number of creatures, the CR goes up by 2, so 8 wizards would be CR7.
Typical Combat plan
So, They always act in the surprise round, and they have a +7 initiative modifier.
Their first action is to use their Prescience ability to roll a d20 as a free action and save it for later.
Their standard action is to use their scroll of fireball. They have a DC 6 caster level check to cast the spell, which gives them an 80% chance to suceed. Using the d20 from Prescience, which is effectively a reroll, so they only have a 4% chance to fail the caster level check.
8 level 5 fireballs is 40d6 damage -> 140 damage on average before saves. A level 7 barbarian with 16 con has around 75 hp. The level 7 rogue would have around a +8 or so reflex save, so they will still fail about 25% of their reflex saves and take 35 damage with evasion. The fighter, cleric and wizard would have something closer to a +4 reflex saves and no evasion, so they are looking at taking around 100 or so damage after saves. So, on average, the party wizard, cleric, and fighter are no extra crisp, the rogue is very badly burned.
Lets assume that the rogue manages to kill 1 wizard in the surprise round somehow. Round 1, the remaining 7 wizards all hit the rogue with magic missle for 24.5 damage and 7 trip attempts.
So basically, a level 7 party is likely dead from a group of level 1 weanies. There are a few situations where the party would prevail, but my gut tells me that the wizards would win more than 75% of the time.
Final note: Scaling the encounter up you get, 16 wizards is CR9, 32 is CR11, 64 is CR13, and so on. Even if you only fail your save on a 1, and have evasion, 64 level 5 fireballs will do 56 damage on average. Anyone in the party without some combination of fire resist/spell resistance/evasion/good reflex saves is dead.
how does skezriax become a pitfiend without that increasing the CR?
and how does he have both half dragon and celestial template without increasing CR either.
how does skezriax become a pitfiend without that increasing the CR?
By applying the "skeletal champion" template to the pit fiend base creature. It sets the CR based on hit dice only.
how does skezriax become a pitfiend without that increasing the CR?
and how does he have both half dragon and celestial template without increasing CR either.
Nicklas is Right adding both those Templates changers the CR to 11
BUt even with out them this is one nasty encounter| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Don't mean to be a party pooper, but I thought it was impossible to add the same template twice to a creature. This isn't spelled out in the rules, but it's common sense. An advanced advanced creature sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? A fiendish fiendish fiendish fiendish creature?
Also, a Balor may have a skeletal system, but you never see it. When a balor dies, it explodes and leaves no skeleton behind. So a skeletal champion balor can't possibly exist.
Somewhere arround here there is a similar thread where I posted a nasty CR8 earth elemental monk. Adding monk levels is one of the most effective ways of boosting an enemy's power without upping the CR. Monk is never considered compatible, so the monk level counts half until they hit the CR of the monster. Additionally, when you add class levels to non-classed monsters they get massive boosts to stats
I like earth elemental because at the levels you will face it, its defenses will be quite significant. As a CR8, you can have a spring attacking monk going into the ground.
Also, a Balor may have a skeletal system, but you never see it. When a balor dies, it explodes and leaves no skeleton behind. So a skeletal champion balor can't possibly exist.
It's a pit fiend, not a balor.
Also, balors don't explode if they're killed in an antimagic field. Death throes is (Su).But for the second version of Skezriax I didn't apply the same template more than once. On the other hand, "common sense" is NOT an argument for a certain interpretation of a rule in this thread! :D
Skeletal Champion (please fix, Paizo) and limited use items definitely need discretion.
I remember a high level adventure with lots of kobolds with fireball beads as almost all their WBL. Thankfully, it was a fire themed dungeon so resistances should've been up, but still silly.
Mighty Mites (racial HD 1, CR 1/4):
Add Warrior levels (2 NPC levels equal one bump in CR to 1/3, then 1/2, then 1) for Warrior 6 at CR 1.
Or, let's be fair and say each level bumps it up one fraction.
Warrior 3 gets you to CR 1. Then 2 NPC levels per CR.
Warrior 4, CR 1 (round down), add vampire for CR 3, HD 5 vampire. Get Spring Attack, kill any level 3 or 4 in two hits plus dominate, etc. (Or go Kobold CR 4)
Adept 10, CR 4 (round down)=10d6 lightning bolts.
17 extra warrior levels for +8 (round down). HD 21, CR 9. Add Half-Fiend Template.
CR 12: Blasphemy CL 21 = save or paralyzed or die (if under 11th w/30+ damage on save) plus Horrid Wilting for 21 dice follow up.
or Summon Monster IX for Elder Elemental (CR 11), or set of Huge Elementals you cast Unholy Aura on.
or Smite Good & PA=base+39/attack, 4 attacks (or imagine archery/TWF)
Half-Dragon on things with many small attacks is neat, usually doubling or tripling damage. Adding red dragon-fire immunity to low CR swarms that are immune to weapon damage is just plain mean.
In 3.5 some decent HD bees that died when they stung became really tough with 1/2 dragon added and no need to sting with new claws & bite.
Skeletal Champion (please fix, Paizo) and limited use items definitely need discretion.
I don't think it needs fixing really. It's quite easy to do yourself, and such a fringe case it isn't in big need of errata. Simply make the template give CR+0 if it's a meleer and CR+1 if it's a caster, from the base creature, not the skeleton version.
I don't think it needs fixing really. It's quite easy to do yourself, and such a fringe case it isn't in big need of errata. Simply make the template give CR+0 if it's a meleer and CR+1 if it's a caster, from the base creature, not the skeleton version.Skeletal Champion (please fix, Paizo) and limited use items definitely need discretion.
Any sub-20 CR fix is easy for me, but this isn't for my in-house play, but for standardized play/module design/new GMs.
I agree CR+1 for casters seems fairly consistent, but the CR+0 for melee varies a lot, with Con vs. Cha being a large factor (did it lose half its h.p. or gain a 50% boost? Do the new immunities cover a weakness or overlap a strength?). Having something simple like "CR+0 for melee types, but use your own judgment as effects of this template will vary more than with most other templates. Add or subtract CR to better compare to creatures with comparable CRs."
Getting the 'official' word out would be enough for me.
I removed some posts. Do no use the word 'retarded' in that way.
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Don't mean to be a party pooper, but I thought it was impossible to add the same template twice to a creature. This isn't spelled out in the rules, but it's common sense. An advanced advanced creature sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? A fiendish fiendish fiendish fiendish creature?
How about Major Major Major Major?
That word is banned on this forum. I think you can only use it to refer to an actual person with an actual disability. Kind of unclear.
To continue the off-topic, if you want to know why that word causes harm see:
Go to The campaign.
MSN covers Special Olympics campaign
Hope that helps explain their decision.
On topic: I think you can clearly apply the young template multiple times to show various stages of youth: teen, tween, youngster, toddler, baby, etc. So, basically, this balor's a toddler.
Note: This thread is just for fun.
Note2: This thread is just for fun.I thought it might be amusing to see how we can "break" the CR system by various appliances of templates, optimized NPC's and the like. The point of the thread is NOT to try to "prove" that the CR system is bad, because as we know all systems can be broken. It's just because it's fun to see how well we can optimize things for a given CR.
Using odd interpretations of the rules are okay, but breaking them is not.
My examples:
** spoiler omitted **...
1)Damage dice is 1d2 or 1 due to size. of the Balor
2)The wand still need Caster level check to DC 10 and you 1 level one. So it not for sure thing.
This whole thread is shows that advancing monster is an "art" not a "scince". Any time you make monster you still need check that monster vs table 1-1, 1-2, & 1-3 on page 291 -292. If add Class level, Template, hit dice, and wealth ect. Witch clearly this stuff is over powered. When you can cast a spell that is higher that you CR monster is failed as be the right CR.
That said the idea that gave for the Balor is neat. Also the CR 2 wand useing wizard rouge is fine. there is 45% chance that nothing happens when he try it. So that is fair. The mini me Balor is cute almost kind of sweet.
On the other hand, "common sense" is NOT an argument for a certain interpretation of a rule in this thread! :D
But a stupid argument is? (:
You did get me on the antimagic field though. Everyone always forgets the antimagic field!
Skeletal Champion (please fix, Paizo) and limited use items definitely need discretion.
I remember a high level adventure with lots of kobolds with fireball beads as almost all their WBL. Thankfully, it was a fire themed dungeon so resistances should've been up, but still silly.Mighty Mites (racial HD 1, CR 1/4):
Add Warrior levels (2 NPC levels equal one bump in CR to 1/3, then 1/2, then 1) for Warrior 6 at CR 1.
Or, let's be fair and say each level bumps it up one fraction.
Warrior 3 gets you to CR 1. Then 2 NPC levels per CR.Warrior 4, CR 1 (round down), add vampire for CR 3, HD 5 vampire. Get Spring Attack, kill any level 3 or 4 in two hits plus dominate, etc. (Or go Kobold CR 4)
Adept 10, CR 4 (round down)=10d6 lightning bolts.
17 extra warrior levels for +8 (round down). HD 21, CR 9. Add Half-Fiend Template.
CR 12: Blasphemy CL 21 = save or paralyzed or die (if under 11th w/30+ damage on save) plus Horrid Wilting for 21 dice follow up.
or Summon Monster IX for Elder Elemental (CR 11), or set of Huge Elementals you cast Unholy Aura on.
or Smite Good & PA=base+39/attack, 4 attacks (or imagine archery/TWF)Half-Dragon on things with many small attacks is neat, usually doubling or tripling damage. Adding red dragon-fire immunity to low CR swarms that are immune to weapon damage is just plain mean.
In 3.5 some decent HD bees that died when they stung became really tough with 1/2 dragon added and no need to sting with new claws & bite.
Adding NPC class level total -2 = CR so 10 level Adept is a CR 8 not CR 4.
Adding NPC class level total -2 = CR so 10 level Adept is a CR 8 not CR 4.Skeletal Champion (please fix, Paizo) and limited use items definitely need discretion.
I remember a high level adventure with lots of kobolds with fireball beads as almost all their WBL. Thankfully, it was a fire themed dungeon so resistances should've been up, but still silly.Mighty Mites (racial HD 1, CR 1/4):
Add Warrior levels (2 NPC levels equal one bump in CR to 1/3, then 1/2, then 1) for Warrior 6 at CR 1.
Or, let's be fair and say each level bumps it up one fraction.
Warrior 3 gets you to CR 1. Then 2 NPC levels per CR.Warrior 4, CR 1 (round down), add vampire for CR 3, HD 5 vampire. Get Spring Attack, kill any level 3 or 4 in two hits plus dominate, etc. (Or go Kobold CR 4)
Adept 10, CR 4 (round down)=10d6 lightning bolts.
17 extra warrior levels for +8 (round down). HD 21, CR 9. Add Half-Fiend Template.
CR 12: Blasphemy CL 21 = save or paralyzed or die (if under 11th w/30+ damage on save) plus Horrid Wilting for 21 dice follow up.
or Summon Monster IX for Elder Elemental (CR 11), or set of Huge Elementals you cast Unholy Aura on.
or Smite Good & PA=base+39/attack, 4 attacks (or imagine archery/TWF)Half-Dragon on things with many small attacks is neat, usually doubling or tripling damage. Adding red dragon-fire immunity to low CR swarms that are immune to weapon damage is just plain mean.
In 3.5 some decent HD bees that died when they stung became really tough with 1/2 dragon added and no need to sting with new claws & bite.
I thought this too, but its not true when adding it to monsters with HD. Then you follow the seprate rules for adding classes to monsters.
Classes in the monster's specialty add full levels to CR. Classes outside their specialty add 1/2 to CR until the class is greater than the orriginal CR, then all of them count full. NPC classes are called out specifically as never counting full. So Adept 20 on a Mite is a CR8 (Mite starts at 1/4).
This is obviously a loophole, but its what this entire thread is about.
Adding or removing hit a dice and young and giant Template. While it dose not say you have to it dose say that change the size you should add or subtract 50% of it hit dice.(see side bar in Bestiary page 295-296) So 20 HD size large with the young temples should go to 10 HD Med. Then 5 HD small. Then 2 1/2 HD tiny. And Finely 1 1/4 HD diminutive. + 2 HD for the Skelton Champion drop the faction. So final HD of 3 not 22 like you have.
The point I am try to make add template or class level it does not get thing off to much that it is not visible. Add more that one and it really dose need to checked well.
That the "quick" rule rebuild, the “better” rebuild rules, the “full rebuild” which if you are going to do that many time 6 ( 4 for size and 2 for Skeletal) you need really look at it better. The spell- like ability alone make CR 16. I guess the point that you trying to make is that Pathfinder really need to not work Beginners box set and over haul there beastly/ monster building rules and clean them up no more 1/3 rebuild or 2/3 rebuild to 1 full rebuild rule.
Adding NPC class level total -2 = CR so 10 level Adept is a CR 8 not CR 4.Skeletal Champion (please fix, Paizo) and limited use items definitely need discretion.
I remember a high level adventure with lots of kobolds with fireball beads as almost all their WBL. Thankfully, it was a fire themed dungeon so resistances should've been up, but still silly.Mighty Mites (racial HD 1, CR 1/4):
Add Warrior levels (2 NPC levels equal one bump in CR to 1/3, then 1/2, then 1) for Warrior 6 at CR 1.
Or, let's be fair and say each level bumps it up one fraction.
Warrior 3 gets you to CR 1. Then 2 NPC levels per CR.Warrior 4, CR 1 (round down), add vampire for CR 3, HD 5 vampire. Get Spring Attack, kill any level 3 or 4 in two hits plus dominate, etc. (Or go Kobold CR 4)
Adept 10, CR 4 (round down)=10d6 lightning bolts.
17 extra warrior levels for +8 (round down). HD 21, CR 9. Add Half-Fiend Template.
CR 12: Blasphemy CL 21 = save or paralyzed or die (if under 11th w/30+ damage on save) plus Horrid Wilting for 21 dice follow up.
or Summon Monster IX for Elder Elemental (CR 11), or set of Huge Elementals you cast Unholy Aura on.
or Smite Good & PA=base+39/attack, 4 attacks (or imagine archery/TWF)Half-Dragon on things with many small attacks is neat, usually doubling or tripling damage. Adding red dragon-fire immunity to low CR swarms that are immune to weapon damage is just plain mean.
In 3.5 some decent HD bees that died when they stung became really tough with 1/2 dragon added and no need to sting with new claws & bite.
I thought this too, but its not true when adding it to monsters with HD. Then you follow the seprate rules for adding classes to monsters.
Classes in the monster's specialty add full levels to CR. Classes outside their specialty add 1/2 to CR until the class is greater than the orriginal CR, then all of them count full. NPC classes are called out specifically as never counting full. So Adept 20 on a...
Your are right it dose work that till you reach the monster orginal hit dice. Then gose as Normal. Mite is 1 HD and thing more that one add as normal. So -1 racial -2 NPC Class then CR 7 not 4.
Your are right it dose work that till you reach the monster orginal hit dice. Then gose as Normal. Mite is 1 HD and thing more that one add as normal.
Except when you abuse the last line of the section: "Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key." - non key classes always count for half. Exceeding the monster's orriginal HD: "increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels." These 2 clauses contradict eachother. The intent is clear, but at best it is ambiguous.
The key is "treated as" which means that while they are not key they behave the same way, at least how I interpret it. But the ambiguity here makes it not obvious, and the type of thing these treads are supposed to exploit :)
When using templates if I am just being cheesy create incorporeal undead in a desecrated area and apply the child prodigy template (young and advanced) then add a level in bard.
CR does not change and you add to the stats: +12 dex, +8 chr, +6 int, +6 wis (ignore str and con since they are -)
If you want to be down right broken add Young X3 and Advanced X3 you will get : +28 dex, +16 chr, +14 in, +14 wis
It is the size of a fly but its AC is stupid broken
Modified Shadow
STR -, DEX 42, CON -, INT 20, WIS 29, CHR 31
AC 40 (+10 Deflection, +16 dex, +1 dodge, +3 size)
Incorporeal touch +22 for 1d6 str damage
If you just go with young and advanced you get
SHADOW YOUNG ADVANCED BARD CR 3
Male Shadow Bard 1
Small Undead (Incorporeal)
Init +8; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +14
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 27, touch 27, flat-footed 18 (+8 Dex, +1 size, +7 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 61 (4d8+37)
Fort +8, Ref +11, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Channel Resistance +2, Incorporeal; Immune ability drain, death effects, energy drain, exhaustion, fatigue, physical ability damage, critical hits, disease, mind-affecting, non-lethal damage, paralysis, poison, precision damage, sleep, stunning, Undead Traits
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 0 ft., Flying (40 feet, Good)
incorporeal Touch +14 (1d6 str damage)
Bard Spells Known (CL 1, +12 melee touch, +11 ranged touch):
1 (DC 18, 3/day)Expeditious Retreat, Hideous Laughter
0 (DC 17)Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prestidigitation
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str -, Dex 26, Con -, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 24
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 35
Feats Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: incorporeal touch
Skills Bluff +14, Fly +19, Intimidate +14, Perception +14, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +19, Perform Dance +8
Languages Common
SQ Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex), Bardic Performance (standard action) (11 rounds/day), Countersong (Su), Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su), Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 17) (Su), Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su), Create Spawn (Su), Strength Damage (Su)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 Stealth in dim light, -4 in bright light (Ex) You gain a bonus to Stealth Checks under the listed conditions.
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add + 1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (11 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Create Spawn (Su) A humanoid creature killed by a shadow's Strength damage becomes a shadow under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds.
Strength Damage (Su) A shadow's touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
Sorry for using that word in such a bad manner. It will not happen again.
Love the mites! Couldn't similar things be made with kobolds? AFAIK they also have some lower-than usual CR rules.
Adding or removing hit a dice and young and giant Template. While it dose not say you have to it dose say that change the size you should add or subtract 50% of it hit dice.(see side bar in Bestiary page 295-296) So 20 HD size large with the young temples should go to 10 HD Med. Then 5 HD small. Then 2 1/2 HD tiny. And Finely 1 1/4 HD diminutive. + 2 HD for the Skelton Champion drop the faction. So final HD of 3 not 22 like you have.
That's incorrect. The young and giant templates do not change the HD. However, if you DO change the HD, you should probably change size when increasing/decreasing HD by at least 50% - this is something completely different.
1)Damage dice is 1d2 or 1 due to size. of the Balor
Pit fiends have unusual natural attack damage. Large claws deal 2d8 damage, so downsized to diminutive it's 1d4, for example.
2)The wand still need Caster level check to DC 10 and you 1 level one. So it not for sure thing.
No caster level check needed, that's only for scrolls.
Love the mites! Couldn't similar things be made with kobolds? AFAIK they also have some lower-than usual CR rules.
Thanks. :)
Yes about the kobolds, who were going to be my example until I recalled there were racial HD critters under CR 1.You can get a CR 1 Adept 4 Kobold with Scorching Ray (13 Stat +1 for 4 HD to get bonus spell), and Sleep spells. 4d6 ranged touch to a level 1 PC is pretty rough, as is Sleep if there are weenies in the way, or positioning. Or Burning Hands for 4d4 (10 h.p.) more.
Because of their low stats Kobold NPC classes are 1 CR less, but give the Advanced Template (for 1 CR more) and you get back more stats than you were behind, and a wicked Dex for archery. Add poison...
CR 1, Advanced Kobold Warrior 3: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12. (Switched Int/Wis for Save/Per) h.p. 22 (3d10+6
CR 1=390 g.p
Att. +6 Longbow 1d6, AC 19 (Chain Shirt), not TPK, but annoying, and can target your weakest/most injured.
Pt. Blank Shot/Rapid Shot (or Precise with melee allies)
Poison: Actually, can't afford a good poison, so maybe Alchemist's fire/acid/tanglefoot bag.
(Of course, add Fiendish template for +0 CR)
And, one could argue, then you add a Barbarian level for CR 2.
Str. 18 (22) (+1 stat for 4HD) Dex 19, Con 18 (22), Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 10. WF (Greataxe), PA. BAB +4. AC 20 (18 raging), h.p. 42 (50 raging, arguably not full h.p. die for Barb, but since we're playing mean...)
Fort: 7 (9) Ref: 5 Will: 4 (6)
mw greataxe (raging/Power Attack):
+11 axe (+1 size, +1 WF, -2 PA, +4 BAB, +6 Str, +1 mw)
1d10 +15 (+9 Str., +6 PA)
Take that, Bugbear!
(Admittedly, it 'should' be CR 1 for Advanced Barb 1, CR 4 for Adv. Barb 1/Wa 3 (so may as well be Adv. Barb 4), but 'should' doesn't mean 'is' if you switch the order, or say, use Mites...)
(And a switched order could take away PC stat boost/full h.p. die, but it'd still be pretty tough (+9 axe 1d10+12, h.p. 37 (raging))
Kobolds can also use NPC classes to rack up skill ranks/BAB for Prestige Classes.
Warrior 5/Assassin X = CR 2+x (a CR 3, Stealth +15 (or so) w/ Death Attack) (Yes, low DC, 12 or so, but it may be the only save or die at those levels)
or CR 2+x Shadow Dancers (CR 5 with Shadow (CR 3) companion for free)
or CR 3+x Duelists...which I can't really do much with as size kills the parrying ability
I think Kobold Stalwart Defenders would be FUNNY! (though not so deadly, it'd be a memorable encounter)
Kobolds are best with intelligent undead templates (dumping Con), (i.e. CR 4 Vampire (tough), CR 10 Lich (modest to tough depending on setup/build)), but PF only has a few. (Skeleton Champion, if fixed, would likely help Kobolds in this regard.)
Instead of Advanced, you could use Giant. :)
or
Giant Advanced Kobold Warrior 1, CR 1/2:
Str. 17 Dex 11, Con 18 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 12 (Int/Wis switched again)
Toughness (h.p. 12)
+4 Greatsword 2d6+4
This isn't broken (as a Human Barb 1 is also CR 1/2), but can be a surprise to players.
And again, Mites with Warrior levels could do this too, and ride large-vermin (but I'll save that for an upcoming post).
Love it. I'm SO going to use a giant kobold sometime soon.
Love it. I'm SO going to use a giant kobold sometime soon.
Oh, and I forgot a major point of the giant kobold, +4 nat. armor.
Adv. Giant Warrior 1, CR 1/2: 260 g.p.
Scale Mail +5, Tower Shield +4, AC 23 (Warriors are proficient in Tower Shields too) Att. +2 Longsword 1d8+3 Toughness. h.p. 12
Pretty sturdy. Even at AC 21, Att. +4, it's sturdy, and can hit high AC 1st level PCs often enough.
Of course, if you just want sturdy & numbers, h.p. 10, giant, non-advanced (-2 att & dam.), CR 1/3 for lots more flanking.
Your are right it dose work that till you reach the monster orginal hit dice. Then gose as Normal. Mite is 1 HD and thing more that one add as normal.Except when you abuse the last line of the section: "Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key." - non key classes always count for half. Exceeding the monster's orriginal HD: "increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels." These 2 clauses contradict eachother. The intent is clear, but at best it is ambiguous.
The key is "treated as" which means that while they are not key they behave the same way, at least how I interpret it. But the ambiguity here makes it not obvious, and the type of thing these treads are supposed to exploit :)
I guess the point that you trying to make is that Pathfinder really need to not work Beginners box set and over haul there beastly/ monster building rules and clean them up no more 1/3 rebuild or 2/3 rebuild to 1 full rebuild rule. It need to clean up the moster building section really bad.
How it's broken: This is completely RAW and not an interpretation. Skeletal Champion gives a CR equal to skeleton CR+1, skeleton CR is 8 for a 20HD creature. Then it's -4 for applying Young four times, which actually is a beneficial template for a creature without a con score. I DID give him an extra feat in exchange for the double improved initiative. I didn't swap any other feats though (great cleave for weapon finesse? yes please).
You can't apply Skeletal Champion and Skeleton to the same creature.
"Skeletal Champion" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than undead)
Skeleton has a similar note, it cannot be added to an undead creature.
Skeletal Champion increases the CR of the base creature, but it retains all it's special abilities (Skeletal Champion Pit Fiend is CR 21)
A pit fiend turned into a skeleton loses all special abilities, defensive abilities, special attacks, etc, and becomes CR 8.
So, you're creature could be CR 17 at best (applying Young a bunch).
I'm sorry, Irontruth, but you're wrong. stringburka did not apply both templates to the same creature. He only applied the Skeleton Champion template. Further, the Skeleton Champion template bases its CR off of the Skeleton template, which is solely based on HD of the base creature. A plain Skeletal Champion Pit Fiend is not CR 21, it's CR 9 (a 20 HD creature makes a CR 8 skeleton; a skeletal champion adds 1 to that CR).
Ah, I see, the Skeletal Champion is horribly written. If you changed that one line to "as base creature +1" it would be appropriate, but this loophole makes it bad. That or applying the unmodified entries from Skeleton.
Skeletal Champions aren't stronger than the base creature, so a straight +1 CR doesn't fit. In most cases, they lose a significant amount of HP, and they frequently lose AC, saves, and BAB as well. For example, a Skeletal Champion Pit Fiend loses 75 hit points, 17 (!) AC, 9 Fort, 6 Reflex, and 4 BAB, as well as its fly speed and its regeneration. It is significantly less of a threat than a living Pit Fiend. It's not -11 CR of threat, though.
It'd be easier to swallow if the skeleton template was like in 3.5, where it increased natural AC (Pathfinder has the same AC bonus as the original template, but it's not noted as increasing natural AC as replacing it).
This is completely RAW and not an interpretation.
Oh I beg to differ. It most definitely is YOUR interpretation.
Where do the rules say you can apply a template more than once? I don't think this is completely legit at all.
Skeletal Champions aren't stronger than the base creature, so a straight +1 CR doesn't fit. In most cases, they lose a significant amount of HP, and they frequently lose AC, saves, and BAB as well. For example, a Skeletal Champion Pit Fiend loses 75 hit points, 17 (!) AC, 9 Fort, 6 Reflex, and 4 BAB, as well as its fly speed and its regeneration. It is significantly less of a threat than a living Pit Fiend. It's not -11 CR of threat, though.It'd be easier to swallow if the skeleton template was like in 3.5, where it increased natural AC (Pathfinder has the same AC bonus as the original template, but it's not noted as increasing natural AC as replacing it).
A skeletal champion pit fiend probably drops to ~CR 16/17.
Young, Advanced, Nymph Vampire Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer 9
CR 13
7 from Nymph
2 from Vampire
-1 from young
+1 from advanced
+4 from 9 non-key sorcerer levels in the shadow bloodline
a nasty caster with excellent defenses, and deadly DCs, despite having weaker spells. can also deal reliable damage to most martials through an agile amulet of mighty fists and guerilla slamming for the level drain, which gets nasty after peppering foes with enervation bombs from stealth first. and being able to hide again like some kind of sniper thanks to hide in plain sight.
Reminds me of how how fighter too out a wizard in one of our games. The big bad guy wizard calls up Balor, before the Balor even gets an Action the fight one shots its and it explodes next the wizard. The wizard failed it's save and dies. It was rather funny and lucky critical. The fighter lived through it but my bard died in explosion as well along with Cleric and our wizard. Only the fighter left standing.