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Potential Problem?


Jade Regent


I just noted what I think might be a potential problem..

The first really good weapons the party gain in this adventure are all Eastern weapons (wakizashis) and therefore Exotic..meaning that to use them they are being feat taxed from the start..

This problem gets worse when they finally get to Minkai where most of what they can buy will be Exotic..

This one could be a game breaker.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

There are both martial and exotic Eastern weapons. Also, some weapons (such as Katana) are both martial and exotic, depending on use.


Whilst that might well be true for the Katana, the Wakizashi is only an exotic weapon, according to the details on it there is no way to class it as a Martial one.


In previous editions, the Wakizashi is classified and given stats as of a short sword including price (variable) and martial weapon proficiency needed to be wielded properly. The variation on price for both katana and wakazashi usually vary due to the masterwork quality (some deem all of this type of weapon to be masterwork) and the rarity increasing price in some areas.


DM Wellard wrote:

I just noted what I think might be a potential problem..

The first really good weapons the party gain in this adventure are all Eastern weapons (wakizashis) and therefore Exotic..meaning that to use them they are being feat taxed from the start..

This problem gets worse when they finally get to Minkai where most of what they can buy will be Exotic..

This one could be a game breaker.

You were up that creek from the beginning by accepting Jade Regent, which is a stranger-in-a-strange-land AP from the get-go (by virtue of starting in Sandpoint and hiking your way to the east).

The whole concept of the AP has me sour, so it's the only Paizo AP I'm skipping in its entirety.


Look at it as a challenge, not a problem. :-) Sorry, seriously... as was noted, not all the weapons are exotic, some of them are martial, and others are mixed use. You'll definitely want to look through Ultimate Combat equipment. That said, the obvious option is: loot! Sell it! There's stuff in Sandpoint the party can buy, so maybe they can trade in these exotic weapons for something they are more accustomed to wielding. Alternatively, you could give some bonuses to your players. Those who pick Ameiko as their NPC (for the campaign trait bonus), maybe also get a free Exotic Weapon Feat based on her teaching them how to use the stuff. That's just an idea, but there are definitely ways to work around that if you think it's a problem.


Or, as the AP intends, you might find a good GIFT for Ameiko among the weapons. But yes, I'd very much like to see a "Foreign Training" feat, where the weapons of one culture can be reclassed from Exotic to Martial weapons.

After that, of course, I'd like to see every culture get its own exotic weapons, maybe a few "martial" weapons reclassed as "default culture exotics" if the option is to select a culture of weapons training and enhance it with "Foreign Training".

And now my poor mind is trying to spin a web of weapons and cultures and fighting styles and other benefits in addition to proficiencies...


You could allow the new exotic weapons be used as martial weapons, just without their special abilities until they're proficient in them?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

DM Wellard wrote:

I just noted what I think might be a potential problem..

The first really good weapons the party gain in this adventure are all Eastern weapons (wakizashis) and therefore Exotic..meaning that to use them they are being feat taxed from the start..

This problem gets worse when they finally get to Minkai where most of what they can buy will be Exotic..

This one could be a game breaker.

One thing that ALL GMs should do when they run a published adventure is adjust things to fit their PCs. If you run a game where the players routinely cash in magic to buy exact items they want, then no big deal. But if you run a game where the players enjoy using the weapons and items they find in the adventure... you should either let them know beforehand that the campaign is going to have a lot of Asian elements to it (something we try to let players know in our Player's Guide), or you should change things to match your player's character's needs.

The PCs don't actually reach Minkai until the 5th adventure, in any case. Until then, they'll be encountering plenty of more familiar weapons along the way.

That all said... we WILL be introducing a few ways you can help your PCs transition into the new setting as some built-in parts of the adventure. The "fish out of water" element is in there by design, as will be some ways to help the PCs acclimate.


DragonMunchie wrote:
In previous editions, the Wakizashi is classified and given stats as of a short sword including price (variable) and martial weapon proficiency needed to be wielded properly. The variation on price for both katana and wakazashi usually vary due to the masterwork quality (some deem all of this type of weapon to be masterwork) and the rarity increasing price in some areas.

I think the Katana has been classified as a bastard sword before as well.

The difference is mostly the deadly property and a 18-20 crit range vs 19-20 on the short and bastard swords.

So I guess you could say that short sword and bastard sword proficiency work with those weapons, but it then uses the lower crit range and doesn't get the deadly proficiency. (katana would still do 1d8 though I guess - so maybe just call it a longsword, that works too)

Reasoning like that might work with some other weapons as well, but not all.


Oh I dont't know how about... Spend the Feat!

I'm jsut sayin' Its a good weapon. Should nothing be exotic? Should everyone get everything for free now. Sorry jsut see way to much of "want something for nothing" on these boards sometimes.

*sigh*

Sorry that build up a little...

R


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Feats are precious. Yes, even to a human fighter. Therefore, a weapon which requires a feat to wield properly should have at least a moderately significant benefit over one which can be wielded for free, or, at the very least, should have alternate methods of wielding it--two-handing the Katana or Bastard Sword as a martial weapon, for example, or the Monk's special access to Monk weapons (or at least some of them).

It's also a violation of simulationism that the Wakizashi requires special training above and beyond a short sword; I can't imagine how they could be so different as to cause that much of a disconnect. At the very least, I might suggest that they would function identically to a short sword if wielded as a martial weapon, while Exotic proficiency lets you make use of its full crit range and abilities.


Ignatz wrote:

Oh I dont't know how about... Spend the Feat!

I'm just sayin' Its a good weapon. Should nothing be exotic? Should everyone get everything for free now. Sorry jsut see way to much of "want something for nothing" on these boards sometimes.

*sigh*

Sorry that build up a little...

R

This was not a something for nothing post..I'm DMing this not playing in it. I was concerned about my players being nerfed by having to spend all their available feats to use the weapons they might find during the AP.

I'll be looking with interest for the rules James mentioned above..

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DM Wellard wrote:

This was not a something for nothing post..I'm DMing this not playing in it. I was concerned about my players being nerfed by having to spend all their available feats to use the weapons they might find during the AP.

I'll be looking with interest for the rules James mentioned above..

Well... they're not a huge or giant part of the game. Just a few things here and there. Don't expect a revision to the weapon proficiency system.

If your'e the GM and you're concerned about players being nerfed in this way, you should absolutely change things around. The easiest solution is to make a quick chart of weapon equivalencies— katana proficiency = bastard sword proficiency, wakazashi proficiency = short sword proficiency, and so on. That's honestly the way I wish the game worked, to be frank.


My party is already planning for this, one is playing a wizard who is trying to figure out a way to convert one of the caravan wagons into a mobile workshop for crafting.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

bcpeery wrote:

My party is already planning for this, one is playing a wizard who is trying to figure out a way to convert one of the caravan wagons into a mobile workshop for crafting.

I would actually say "No Conversion Necessary." The caravan is really supposed to be a mobile home-base for the PCs as they make their multi-thousand-mile journey. Using it as place to craft magic items is exactly one of the reasons we put a caravan into the adventure in the first place.


I think I'll just replace the weapons with their "Western" equivalents in all but description. Personally, I don't like it when very similar weapons are given different stats just because they come from different cultures and have different designs. Katana is just another word for bastard sword in my games.


Here's the cheat if your a fighter..take an early one level dip into Samurai..you don't lose combat efficiency..you get armour training or bravery one level late..you miss out on your fighter capstone but you wouldn't get that in an AP anyway..
in return you automatically gain 3 EWPs in place of the one fighter feat your would have had plus the other 1st level Samurai abilities..

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Come on, the solution is an easy one.

You need a montage.

Montage!

Just let your players make a montage of their incremental improvement over the passage of time and BAM! they get the weapon proficiency.

Seriously, even Rocky had a montage. Gonna Fly Now!

(and don't forget to shave, literally everywhere)

[fadeout]


James Jacobs wrote:
bcpeery wrote:

My party is already planning for this, one is playing a wizard who is trying to figure out a way to convert one of the caravan wagons into a mobile workshop for crafting.

I would actually say "No Conversion Necessary." The caravan is really supposed to be a mobile home-base for the PCs as they make their multi-thousand-mile journey. Using it as place to craft magic items is exactly one of the reasons we put a caravan into the adventure in the first place.

To be more specific he is building one of the caravan wagons (prior to the trip to leave Sandport)to be like his mobile lab; comfortable stable lab, small forging area, scribe's table, ect.


My players are also bringing along a crafter PC for the trip and this has at least seemed like the most craft-friendly AP I've seen considering the travel times.(King Maker might have been as well, not sure)

Although the post earlier might have been a bit negative towards the AP in general, it is about a stranger in a strange land type situation to me. Strange weapons and armor only add to that mystery and 'difference' between Jade Regent and the other AP's.

I think the concept of being 'taxed' for taking a feat to use a weapon is rather dramatic sounding. I understand the idea behind having a 'build' and needing to be powerful, and said cool feeling that is associated with it, but I know I personally explained this to my PC's long before my first Jade Regent session that they would encounter potentially lots of Asian weaponry and that they should possibly consider that in their build ideas a bit further down the line. Easy as pie, problem solved for me.

Also, for what it is worth(and probably not much with all the talk of 'optimization' that gets thrown the boards), the AP's aren't designed to handle the "super omg explode your face and break the game" type PC's as far as I have experienced. That seems far more likely to 'break' something, than a character spending a feat on exotic weapon proficiency. By book 3, when you are rolling over every encounter no matter the foe, combat generally stops being enjoyable for me at this point. I guess my point is one exotic weapon proficiency feat is not going to make the AP unplayable by any means and I would venture a guess it might even make it better.

Apologies if that sounds rant-ish. I don't mean to single anyone out or anything like that, but so far Jade Regent has been a real pleasure for me to read and run for my table and I just wanted to offer a slightly different approach that might help you come at it from a different angle and see the good parts of it.


I'm DMing this AP, and thought this might happen. My party consists of samurai, fighter/cleric, inquisitor, sorcerer, and ranger. I decided to house rule that instead of burning a feat to use any of the exotic weapons they find, I PC can use it exclusively for 1 full level as their melee weapon with full penalties, 1 full level at half penalty, and then are considered to have picked up the feat for free for that specific weapon.


Also, just a heads up here since the 4th book is out. There is some 'spiritual guidance' that the players have access to that can potentially impart a Weapon Proficiency.


For my games the weapons look like what they should but have similar stats as those presented in the Corebook. Wakizahshi = shortsword, Katana = longsowrd, Tetsubo = Greatclub and so on. Saves me and my players headaches.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Cards Subscriber

Either just use the normal stat-lines or, at some point, give everyone a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Don't complicate it and don't worry too much about balance.


DM Wellard wrote:
... I was concerned about my players being nerfed by having to spend all their available feats to use the weapons they might find during the AP...

In my opinion, that is kinda one of the major points of the AP. They are going to be 'Strangers in a Strange Land.' If they want to use the stff from that strange land then they need to learn how. If they don't want to learn how, they don't have to do so.

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