Too much going on in Golarion? No need for heroes.


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Silver Crusade

I have been reading through the Inner Sea World guide, and I get the feeling that there is to much going on. Most of the states have really well developed societies, and there seem to be many many large, well organized, militaries and navies. What need is there for heroic adventurers?

I just kind of wish it was more of a vulnerable world.


Just as a warning, I'm about to spoil a bit of each AP I've played... so all in spoiler tags.

Rise of the Runelords:
And what use would these armies be against the might of Karzoug, slumbering for 10 thousand years, now awake and poised to send his armies of giants into Varisia, a "country" not well known for solidarity and cooperation?

Second Darkness:
Or against the coming of a second Earthfall, when nobody knows that the drow are planning it?

Curse of the Crimson Throne:
Or against the selfish, devil powered queen of their own city?

Legacy of Fire:
The wish fueled armies of a power hungry efreeti, with the powers of a very spawn of Rovagug?

Kingmaker:
The capricious whims of a loveless nymph from the first world?

Along with any number of threats in the modules, the Society modules, and the APs I am not familiar with.

It's like Men in Black, the only way these people get on with their short, pointless lives, is that they do not know about it. It's also why there is the need for heroes, those who stumble across what is going on, and for whatever reasons, stop it. Everything looks good on the surface, powerful cities, mighty kingdoms with armies... but if you take a closer look... it's falling apart.

Take Mendev for example, a nation on the edge of the Worldwound, dedicated to stopping the influx of demons into our world. But they are slipping back. They haven't made significant gains in years, and despite appearances, their Crusade is made up of mostly mercs and less savory types.

Cheliax? Like most decadent empires, it's rotting from the inside out. Taldor? A word from the Keleshite Empire and Qadira overruns it. And none of this takes into consideration the aboleths, yet more repercussions from the death of Aroden, the threat of things from beyond the sky, the return of evil wizards, liches, and countless many things that lie slumbering in or around Golarion. And... this is just one small part of the entire planet. Somewhere deep below the surface sleeps the god of destruction, and his prison isn't perfect. Something twisted a god of beauty and love into Zon-Kuthon, countless demon lords, devils, gods and other things plot destruction.

In short, it's all there. These countries look strong, but that power is nothing against the might of what lurks and plots beneath.


Triga wrote:

I have been reading through the Inner Sea World guide, and I get the feeling that there is to much going on. Most of the states have really well developed societies, and there seem to be many many large, well organized, militaries and navies. What need is there for heroic adventurers?

I just kind of wish it was more of a vulnerable world.

If you knew anything about militaries and navies, you'd know just how ill-equipped they are to handle the kind of threats the APs throw at you.


Rocketmail1 wrote:
Triga wrote:

I have been reading through the Inner Sea World guide, and I get the feeling that there is to much going on. Most of the states have really well developed societies, and there seem to be many many large, well organized, militaries and navies. What need is there for heroic adventurers?

I just kind of wish it was more of a vulnerable world.

If you knew anything about militaries and navies, you'd know just how ill-equipped they are to handle the kind of threats the APs throw at you.

Not a very helptful tone in that response rocketmail.

On to the OP, I sense what you're looking for is a part of the world where the rule of law and civilization is less developed. In that regard, there are a plenty of regions that might work for you. I found Varisia is that D&D default balance of a few pockets of civilization but still an open and rough frontier complete with an orc dominated wasteland on its border. For that reason its probably been my favourite spot on Golarion for running adventures.

Other areas would be the Shackles, Mwangi Expanse and the River Kingdoms. There are more but I think you get the idea.

What I do like about Golarion and the kitchen sink approach is there is always something for everyone.

Dark Archive

Regions where typical adventuring can be undertaken: Varisia, Numeria, the River Kingdoms, the Shackles, realm of the Mammoth Lords, Land of the Linnorm Kings, the hinterlands of central avistan (darkmoon vale, Isger's dense woods, the Nirmathas border) Mwangi Expanse, Katapesh, and probably more I've forgotten.

Plus, lets not forget political skullduggery, cloak-and-dagger stuff, which can happen in the largest, most civilized of cities.


Rusty Shackleford wrote:
Regions where typical adventuring can be undertaken: Varisia, Numeria, the River Kingdoms, the Shackles, realm of the Mammoth Lords, Land of the Linnorm Kings, the hinterlands of central avistan (darkmoon vale, Isger's dense woods, the Nirmathas border) Mwangi Expanse, Katapesh, and probably more I've forgotten.

Agreed; there are quite a few frontier-type areas that are decent for adventuring, especially in the north & south.


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Take Mendev and Lastwall. I suppose you could infer from the text that these two holy-backed powers of intended righteousness are holding their ground and not in need of heroes.

But look a little closer, and you see two nations besieged by their enemies, entrenched behind lines they tell themselves are inviolate, able to do little more then hold their ground until the next attack comes and forces them to move that line back at a slow pace only achieved with the costly expense of lives. Their entire resources are based around holding back rising foes for whom they have provided a single, unifying purpose for centuries. They are giving all they have, and this is the best they can do.

When the Storm King finally decides to unite the Demon Horde and storm Nerosyan, does battered, beleagured Mendev have the means to push back twice as hard? No. What do they have? The Pc's.

When the Orcs of Belkzen make for Vigil, or the Whispering Tyrant stirs in his crypt, whom will stop them. The Watcher Lord? HAH! A 6th level 19 year old paladin, heroic for sure, but insufficient to stem the tide alone. Whom will dare Gallowspire's depths or ride out to slay the orc warlord? The PC's.

When Qadira decides to invade Taldor, whom will inspire its people to save their borders? The Mad Prince Stavian? No. The PC's.

You say the world seems too stable. I say look a little closer; it's barely holding together at the seams. When the dam breaks, none but the PC's stand to bar its path.

The world needs heroes. Desperately. More then ever.

Look closer.

Contributor

Fixed thread title.


Liz Courts wrote:
Fixed thread title.

Liz, did you just change it from Galarian to Galorion?

Oh... you changed it again.

I SAW WHAT YOU DID!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a couple posts. Don't pick fights.

Liberty's Edge

I wasn't! Innocent, Ross, Innocent I say!

That was good-natured ribbing at best. No fighting was intended.


Triga wrote:

What need is there for heroic adventurers?

I just kind of wish it was more of a vulnerable world.

I'd strongly disagree. My reading of the Inner Sea Guide gave me the opposite impression - that there was plenty of opportunity for adventure and fun - of all varieties.

Was there a particular region that you had in mind?


Mark Sweetman wrote:

Was there a particular region that you had in mind?

Yeah I guess I'm a little confused as well with the O.P. Not in a "waiting to pounce and flame" kind of way, but what geographic areas seem like they have got all the good adventuring jobs covered? Because that can be sort of an interesting story concept in and of itself.

Take a nation/area that already has a Captain Amazing with all the bad guys locked away in a nut-house and then...kill Captain Amazing and unleash the bad guys from the nut-house. Enter level 1 heroes (and yes I watched Mystery Men last night)...cook for 15-20 levels and enjoy!

Serves 4 to 6

Jon Brazer Enterprises

One games I've been itching to run for a while is a Mendev/Worldwound game. The players are part of an invading army from Mendev and the armies get wiped out in the first session. The players are the only survivors ... and they're deep behind enemy lines.

Because sometimes, those "armies" are nothing but plot hooks.

Liberty's Edge

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

One games I've been itching to run for a while is a Mendev/Worldwound game. The players are part of an invading army from Mendev and the armies get wiped out in the first session. The players are the only survivors ... and they're deep behind enemy lines.

Wow, that sounds like a cool campaign!


Triga wrote:

I have been reading through the Inner Sea World guide, and I get the feeling that there is to much going on. Most of the states have really well developed societies, and there seem to be many many large, well organized, militaries and navies. What need is there for heroic adventurers?

I just kind of wish it was more of a vulnerable world.

It may help if you mention a world or setting that appears more vulnerable, and is ripe for heroic action, so a comparison can be made.

Liberty's Edge

I got the exact opposite impression from the Inner Sea Guide. I saw a world falling apart at the seams, barely held together by armies of incompetents and governments more attuned to their own internal politics than what's actually happening in the world.

I don't think the issue with Golarion is that it has no need for heroes, I think the real question is "Does it have enough heroes?" And as the APs make fairly clear, the whole world is just a giant game of Evil Whack-A-Mole. Crush one plot to destroy the world, and two more spring up in its place.

It's certainly better in this respect than Forgotten Realms, where one often wonders "Why doesn't Eliminister just port in and put a stop to this nonsense? What's keeping him so busy?"


Gailbraithe wrote:
It's certainly better in this respect than Forgotten Realms, where one often wonders "Why doesn't Eliminister just port in and put a stop to this nonsense? What's keeping him so busy?"

That one is easy, he's busy Oogling and Schmoozing the seven sisters. The man has TASTE! (Also he is the love puppy of a goddess of magic, so there's that. His name should be Elminster the gigilo!)


Doesn't Forgotten Realms have really well developed societies, and there seem to be many many large, well organized, militaries and navies?

Besides... DUNGEONS!!!


+1 to Galbraithe.
There are very few distinctly good nations within Golarion, and pretty much all of those have their existing commitments.
For all the blatantly and less blatant Evil nations and forces described operating on Golarion, there isn´t actually much decent ´Good´ opposition to them described, in most cases the main thing holding them in check is their own weaknesses and other Evil or at least self-serving forces.


Gailbraithe wrote:

I got the exact opposite impression from the Inner Sea Guide. I saw a world falling apart at the seams, barely held together by armies of incompetents and governments more attuned to their own internal politics than what's actually happening in the world.

I don't think the issue with Golarion is that it has no need for heroes, I think the real question is "Does it have enough heroes?" And as the APs make fairly clear, the whole world is just a giant game of Evil Whack-A-Mole. Crush one plot to destroy the world, and two more spring up in its place.

It's certainly better in this respect than Forgotten Realms, where one often wonders "Why doesn't Eliminister just port in and put a stop to this nonsense? What's keeping him so busy?"

+1

Elminster (the creator's Mary Sue character...) is the main reason I HATE Forgotten Realms (well, him and Drzzt) and the reason I don;t read anything Greenwood writes if I can avoid it.

We played 2nd ed once...(with a player who had a Kender no less) and three of us told the GM that if Elminster was even mentioned in the game, we were packing up...he did and so did we...(after drowning the Kender...)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Wow, no kender love...well too each his own. I for one loved the Forgotten Realms and many of the novels and characters from that setting. Sure I became a little tired of some characters after 10+ books but I read and enjoyed many of the series.

And Elminster, he was kept busy with other unltra powerful archmages, evil organizations, and the gods themselves. He really did not have time to solve the everyday problems of the world. In a campaign setting as big (and highpowered) as the forgotten realms you can have characters like that.

But that is just how it seemed to me.


Quandary wrote:

+1 to Galbraithe.

There are very few distinctly good nations within Golarion, and pretty much all of those have their existing commitments.
For all the blatantly and less blatant Evil nations and forces described operating on Golarion, there isn´t actually much decent ´Good´ opposition to them described, in most cases the main thing holding them in check is their own weaknesses and other Evil or at least self-serving forces.

Even the good nations have their problems. Take Andoran, for example. They have an egalitarian, democratic government. Yet in Darkmoon Vale you have the Lumber Consortium grinding the life out of its employees for every last copper they can squeeze, abusing the very trade system that is one of the "three pillars of Andoran's stability as a liberal republic."


Gailbraithe wrote:
I got the exact opposite impression from the Inner Sea Guide. I saw a world falling apart at the seams, barely held together by armies of incompetents and governments more attuned to their own internal politics than what's actually happening in the world.

Personally, I think there are probably enough places to fit traditional(ish) D&D-style adventures in Golarion. But it seems odd to spend so much time and effort detailing places where those adventures wouldn't fit very well. For instance, in other threads where folks have been asking where Shackled City/Age of Worms/Savage Tide/Rappan Athuk/Temple of Elemental Evil/GDQ/etc. might fit in Golarion, there answer is almost never Andoran, Taldor or Cheliax, even though those are probably the most detailed nations.


gigglestick wrote:


Elminster (the creator's Mary Sue character...) is the main reason I HATE Forgotten Realms (well, him and Drzzt) and the reason I don;t read anything Greenwood writes if I can avoid it.

It's probably impossible to eradicate this myth since facts so rarely enter into it, but Elminster was never a PC. We have so many novels starring him because that's what sold best, which is just the reason we have quite a few more novels about Drizzt.


Actually, compared to the Forgotten 4.0 or 3.5 there is not much going on. There is a nice developed backdrop but not a lot of NPCs that are mid to high level and not a lot of heroes in the world that are doing anything. The setting assumes that YOU are the only heroes around and can do anything about it. You can't go find an Elminster for advice or enlist a Conan for help.


Elminster started as a tool for Ed Greenwood to talk about the Forgotten Realms back in the early Dragon Magazines. People liked him so he wrote some books. Allot of the uber characters from the realms were never PCs but characters that were in Novels first. Then adapted to the 2nd edition AD&D game.

Liberty's Edge

hogarth wrote:
Gailbraithe wrote:
I got the exact opposite impression from the Inner Sea Guide. I saw a world falling apart at the seams, barely held together by armies of incompetents and governments more attuned to their own internal politics than what's actually happening in the world.
Personally, I think there are probably enough places to fit traditional(ish) D&D-style adventures in Golarion. But it seems odd to spend so much time and effort detailing places where those adventures wouldn't fit very well. For instance, in other threads where folks have been asking where Shackled City/Age of Worms/Savage Tide/Rappan Athuk/Temple of Elemental Evil/GDQ/etc. might fit in Golarion, there answer is almost never Andoran, Taldor or Cheliax, even though those are probably the most detailed nations.

I agree, and you could add Osirion and Qadira to that list. So far it seems that most of the effort has focused on detailing the places PCs are likely to be from, especially if you're doing Pathfinder Society play, with less emphasis on places they are likely to go.

This is not entirely strange though, since so far the most detailed parts of the setting are those that have their own Player's Companion, and it makes sense to focus the PC series on places PCs are likely to be from, leaving the more obvious adventuring areas -- the Sodden Lands, Numeria, Linnorn/Mammoth areas - underdeveloped to allow GMs more freedom for designing adventures.

It makes sense to start with detailing the areas players are likely to know about so they can use that information to generate characters, then to start with detailing adventuring areas that players should know very little about (thus enhancing the mystery of those areas). I suspect that in a few years (maybe as little as two years), we'll be complaining that there isn't enough undefined space in Golarion.

Liberty's Edge

Samnell wrote:
gigglestick wrote:


Elminster (the creator's Mary Sue character...) is the main reason I HATE Forgotten Realms (well, him and Drzzt) and the reason I don;t read anything Greenwood writes if I can avoid it.
It's probably impossible to eradicate this myth since facts so rarely enter into it, but Elminster was never a PC. We have so many novels starring him because that's what sold best, which is just the reason we have quite a few more novels about Drizzt.

Calling Elminster a Mary Sue doesn't imply he was a Player Character.


Shizvestus wrote:
Actually, compared to the Forgotten 4.0 or 3.5 there is not much going on. There is a nice developed backdrop but not a lot of NPCs that are mid to high level and not a lot of heroes in the world that are doing anything.

I'm not so sure about that. Take Curse of the Crimson Throne, for instance; according to that module, there are dozens of mid-to-high level NPCs in one moderate-sized city.


Samnell wrote:
gigglestick wrote:


Elminster (the creator's Mary Sue character...) is the main reason I HATE Forgotten Realms (well, him and Drzzt) and the reason I don;t read anything Greenwood writes if I can avoid it.
It's probably impossible to eradicate this myth since facts so rarely enter into it, but Elminster was never a PC. We have so many novels starring him because that's what sold best, which is just the reason we have quite a few more novels about Drizzt.

I never said he was a PC. He was just Greenwood's "Uber-Character" in the world.


Pyrrhic Victory wrote:


And Elminster, he was kept busy with other unltra powerful archmages, evil organizations, and the gods themselves. He really did not have time to solve the everyday problems of the world. In a campaign setting as big (and highpowered) as the forgotten realms you can have characters like that.

But that is just how it seemed to me.

What it comes down to, for me, is that while you certainly can rationalize it... I ran FR campaigns for a lot of pretty different groups over the years and damned if "Well, Elminster can always just solve that problem" or the equivalent didn't come out of the players at some point every. single. time.

So I'm happier with something like Golarion.


This is really informative an interesting thread. It's just too bad the OP stirred up the pot so to speak and then bounced.


Elminster was supposed to be the DM character for the Realms, making him a lime light character was the doing of TSR.....

the only characters that madfe novels that were pcs were the ones from the late creators of dnd.....

that is not t osay anything about all of them


Shizvestus wrote:
Actually, compared to the Forgotten 4.0 or 3.5 there is not much going on. There is a nice developed backdrop but not a lot of NPCs that are mid to high level and not a lot of heroes in the world that are doing anything. The setting assumes that YOU are the only heroes around and can do anything about it. You can't go find an Elminster for advice or enlist a Conan for help.

Well, there are the Iconics.

Liberty's Edge

Panguinslayer7 wrote:
Shizvestus wrote:
Actually, compared to the Forgotten 4.0 or 3.5 there is not much going on. There is a nice developed backdrop but not a lot of NPCs that are mid to high level and not a lot of heroes in the world that are doing anything. The setting assumes that YOU are the only heroes around and can do anything about it. You can't go find an Elminster for advice or enlist a Conan for help.
Well, there are the Iconics.

Right, but think about that for a second. Where are the Iconics introduced? How do they enter the game? As pregenerated characters! Which means that if you're playing an AP, the Iconics are either your allies or they cease to exist, having been replaced by your PC.

This is, imho, far more awesome than having the iconic characters of Golarion presented as uber-heroes that co-exist with your characters and outshine them.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Panguinslayer7 wrote:
Well, there are the Iconics.

[being silly]

They're not in my adventure paths anymore.... the iconics are gone.... they're gone...
[/being silly]

Shadow Lodge

hogarth wrote:
Personally, I think there are probably enough places to fit traditional(ish) D&D-style adventures in Golarion. But it seems odd to spend so much time and effort detailing places where those adventures wouldn't fit very well. For instance, in other threads where folks have been asking where Shackled City/Age of Worms/Savage Tide/Rappan Athuk/Temple of Elemental Evil/GDQ/etc. might fit in Golarion, there answer is almost never Andoran, Taldor or Cheliax, even though those are probably the most detailed nations.

As for myself, after a few abortive attempts to squeeze square pegs into round holes, I've decided it easier to just play Greyhawk modules in (GASP) Greyhawk, instead of trying to awkwardly shoehorn them into Golarion or other places that they weren't written for.


Well, I see it as I see most RPGs. Characters are better than your average soldier.

Level 1 Warrior vs. Level 1 Fighter? Unless the warrior gets lucky, the fighter will wipe the floor and not break a sweat.

Most of those armies? They are warriors. So, when the Level 15 Fiendish Werewolf Antipaladin of Jezelda comes into town, all those soldiers are tissue paper to his claws, even if we are nice and give them all level 15 in warrior.

Now, call in the 15 Fighter, 15 Wizard, 15 Rouge, and 15 Cleric. OH look an overgrown puppy with glowing red eyes. Oh look, a dead puppy.


AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

Well, I see it as I see most RPGs. Characters are better than your average soldier.

Level 1 Warrior vs. Level 1 Fighter? Unless the warrior gets lucky, the fighter will wipe the floor and not break a sweat.

Most of those armies? They are warriors. So, when the Level 15 Fiendish Werewolf Antipaladin of Jezelda comes into town, all those soldiers are tissue paper to his claws, even if we are nice and give them all level 15 in warrior.

Now, call in the 15 Fighter, 15 Wizard, 15 Rouge, and 15 Cleric. OH look an overgrown puppy with glowing red eyes. Oh look, a dead puppy.

Well take into consideration that 90% of all militaries anywhere in the world are filled to the brim with npc classes no more than level 5-9. The few lietuenants and such with real classes are at max 10 and a powerful general is probably no more than 15th level. So super puppy here would be throwing down with way lower level guys who dont have the gear to battle him. However remember that with luck and randomness of dice they'd eventually kill him thanks to numbers. However if theres a handful of these super puppies....

Now you need heroes

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Samnell wrote:
gigglestick wrote:


Elminster (the creator's Mary Sue character...) is the main reason I HATE Forgotten Realms (well, him and Drzzt) and the reason I don;t read anything Greenwood writes if I can avoid it.
It's probably impossible to eradicate this myth since facts so rarely enter into it, but Elminster was never a PC. We have so many novels starring him because that's what sold best, which is just the reason we have quite a few more novels about Drizzt.

Elminster never was Ed Greenwood's Wesley character. He created the archmage to keep his rambunctious players in line. One thing to keep in note. 90 plus percent of FR novels don't have him anywhere in their pages.


The thing I didn't like about Drizzt was that it seemed like rules were made just to make one character work. 1st/2nd ed, drow get to use 2 weapons much better than anyone else. 3ed, drow no longer can do that, but Drizzt has to still work, so...

Rangers get to use 2 weapons better than anyone else.

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