| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
A recent predicament in our group has sparked a furiously heated debate about the use of the Feather Token (Tree) wondrous item.
A character recently in our campaign used it indoors to cause a structural collapse of a small section of a dungeon, walling the current PC's inside of a "safe zone". There is now a large debate about whether or not the Feather Token could have been used inside a small confined space, a 30 x 10 x 10 foot hallway.
The current predicament is that one of our PC's brought up the rules for Conjuration magic, which specifically states:
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
Since this, RAW, applies only to spells, it would be greatly appreciated. Our group has used this method a variety of times to buy time in multiple campaigns, and our GM has had no problem with it. But now one of the PC's has taken an issue with it, and is bringing the problem to the table.
As this small little hiccup is causing quite the drama in our group, any outside opinions or official rulings on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Good Question. I have a similar issue about throwing one into a (insert name of huge creature capable of swollow whole) mouth or dropping it once swolled by said (insert name of huge creature capable of swollow whole). I would like to see some more input on this.
It seems like you might be able to take the basic rules for enlarge person/animal in a confined space as a starting point the trick would be determining the STR of the tree at full size. Perhaps assume its weight is its PUSH weight limit (as it cannot move). Then actual checks could be made to see if it breaks the confining space to make a cave in.
I don't want our drama to spill to far over in to the Paizo fourms, so I'll say my peace and wait for an answer. Feather Tokens use Conjuration magic, and Major Creation as a requirement. We're trying to figure out if the RAW on Conjurations apply here, since it is a conjuration effect.
I don't want our drama to spill to far over in to the Paizo fourms, so I'll say my peace and wait for an answer. Feather Tokens use Conjuration magic, and Major Creation as a requirement. We're trying to figure out if the RAW on Conjurations apply here, since it is a conjuration effect.
Rules-as-written the requirements for and aura of a magic item do not affect how the item functions. In fact, sometimes a magic item description specifically states it functions different than the requirement spell.
Opinion: It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the aura describes the nature of the magical effect and the spell prerequisite can be used as a basis to adjudicate the effect. As the nature of magical effect basically describes how magical 'physics' work in the game world--the Laws of Nature, if you will.
At my table this is how I rule: Conjuration(creation) magic, the type used in the major creation spell, states: "the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence."
It does not state that a tree forms from a seed, then grows to a sapling, and finally a mighty oak. Rather the object is 'assembled.' I read that as created out of thin air. So the tree does form as normal. You have a 5-foot wide trunk going from floor to ceiling (and 50 feet beyond).
I know someone will say that I created an object (the tree) inside another object (the dungeon itself). So, if that offends you ignore the part of the object that extends beyond the open space. Personally I like the image of the party climbing the stairs and finding the rest of the tree in the space above.
Now, the first time a character tried this I might let it slide if it was used in cinematic fashion, but since this has become a routine tactic, I would tend not to look on it so favorably.
Now, the first time a character tried this I might let it slide if it was used in cinematic fashion, but since this has become a routine tactic, I would tend not to look on it so favorably.
Well to clarify on the frequency of this being used in our group, I would have to say this is the third time in five years. We thank you for the input, and hope some others will weigh in on this problem we've hit. If anything, it's something for our GM to consider.
Instead of changing the mechanics, just raise the price of the item. If it costs 10K more, they might still use it, but they will think about it long and hard.
Instead of changing the mechanics, just raise the price of the item. If it costs 10K more, they might still use it, but they will think about it long and hard.
We're not changing the mechanics of the item, nor raising the price. We're simply asking if the item works under the rules of Conjuration spells, or if the tree that springs into being is able to do so in a confined space.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Instead of changing the mechanics, just raise the price of the item. If it costs 10K more, they might still use it, but they will think about it long and hard.We're not changing the mechanics of the item, nor raising the price. We're simply asking if the item works under the rules of Conjuration spells, or if the tree that springs into being is able to do so in a confined space.
Gotta love those suggestions that presume a particular desired end state.
I would give it a +16 (if you consider that colossal, +12 if gargantuan) Str check to burst an enclosure, otherwise it would extend only to the space allowed.
I'm wondering if the tree would poke a hole in the ceiling if used indoors, or try to?
What would happen if it was underground and there was a low rock ceiling?
Would it smash someone into the ceiling if used under them? If so, what damage?
What would happen to the roots if used indoors?
I recommend following the rule of cool on this one, as neither interpretation mentioned is "wrong."
|
My thought on this follows this line.
If you used this item outdoors (where it should work with no problems) would the tree be rooted in the ground, or just appear and then fall over? If it is rooted in the ground (and thus "appearing inside of something") I would allow it to try to burst the enclosure.
The token is defined as "A token that causes a great oak to spring into being (5-foot-diameter trunk, 60-foot height, 40-foot top diameter). This is an instantaneous effect."
Conjuration makes the object appear. It does not grow, it does not start as a seed and sprout into a tree. It simply goes from not being there to being there. There is no pushing into the space from elsewhere as that would take some amount time. There is just a tree there now.
Since the token does not answer the "what happens to things in the way", we are left with three options:
1) Everything is shoved out of the way just as when a creature's size is magically increased. However, creatures that go from medium to large in a small area are considered to be cramped. They don't go smashing stone walls apart.
2) The tree doesn't appear. Following the conjuration magic rules, if there isn't enough room nor a stable base, it can't be created. Then you can argue it either fizzles out or never activates but either way, no tree.
3) The tree fills as much of the area as it can before encountering resistance. This would leave you with a chunk of trunk sitting in the hallway. May even want part of the upper tree to appear in rooms above the hall for fun effect (though they aren't connected due to the intervening stone.
Logically, you'd assume option 1 because how else do the roots get into the ground? It isn't like the tree just appears with roots sitting on top of dirt. Not every leaf has the force to topple rock in its way, but at least the major trunk could, right?
From an reasonable viewpoint, you'd pick option 2 (with the 'it just doesn't work, item remains usable later).
From the angle of compromise, option 3 makes sense. As a twist, you could have it try to fill as much of the tree's volume in available space, even if that means it suddenly pops in sideways down the length of the hall, shoving everyone away.
In my game, I'd go with rule 2. It is just easier to simply prevent it that trying to adjudicate all possible corner cases (what if I hide it in a sandwich, what about dropping it into a coffin and closing it, what about activating it over a vampire's chest, what about laying it sideways, what about aiming it at a castle gate, etc). I'd state that there much be at least enough room for the trunk (5' x 60' column of open space) and the branches will fill as much as it can to a maximum of the 40' top width.
So against a wall, it creates an easy to climb ladder without having branches knocking the wall down. In a mine shaft it lets you climb out without collapsing the walls in on you. And so on.
If "resistance" stopped the tree's growth, it would never work due to air resistance.
The way I would determine it is as follows: If it were to grow normally at its normal slow growth rate, would it break through the intervening barriers? If the answer is yes, than it will most certainly break through said barriers when it instantaneously transforms from a token to a tree. If not, than no.
In short, it will get through most things. (Ever see grass growing through concrete? Plants are STRONG.)
that token is dangerous I used it all the time to cause mayhem in a dungeon in a house, in a gnolls Pants. it was outlawed due to abuse
used in a house we ruled it burst through the roof. i would say it appears and then bends over stretches/breaks at the roof/ceiling.
just my crazy non nonsensical 2 cents. i once used it to kill a gnoll crush incorrect children and ruin a fellows pc inn bill as i slipped it under his door every Inn we went through and he had to pay the bill for a new door and wall.
|
If "resistance" stopped the tree's growth, it would never work due to air resistance.
The way I would determine it is as follows: If it were to grow normally at its normal slow growth rate, would it break through the intervening barriers? If the answer is yes, than it will most certainly break through said barriers when it instantaneously transforms from a token to a tree. If not, than no.
In short, it will get through most things. (Ever see grass growing through concrete? Plants are STRONG.)
/agree.
The real argument ought to be in whether or not the tree GROWS so rapidly its considered instant (less than 6 seconds), or if it pops into existence (within 6 seconds). If it just pops in, yeah, it probably shouldn't work. The descriptions for most feather tokens suggest that the feather becomes the object, which suggests to me that the tree grows into existence from the feather, hence my agreement with Ravingdork.
On the same token (haw haw), the anchor token does something specific, it does not simply make an anchor. This is the potential wrecking point of the tree growing argument...
As to it being conjuration magic, I think that point is moot.
Bird: a token that creates a small bird that can be used to deliver a small written message unerringly to a designated target. The token lasts as long as it takes to carry the message.
Fan: a token that forms a huge flapping fan, causing a breeze of sufficient strength to propel one ship (about 25 mph). This wind is not cumulative with existing wind speed. The token can, however, be used to lessen existing winds, creating an area of relative calm or lighter winds (but wave size in a storm is not affected). The fan can be used for up to 8 hours. It does not function on land.
Swan Boat: a token that forms a swan-like boat capable of moving on water at a speed of 60 feet. It can carry eight horses and gear, 32 Medium characters, or any equivalent combination. The boat lasts for 1 day.
Tree: a token that causes a great oak to spring into being (5-foot-diameter trunk, 60-foot height, 40-foot top diameter). This is an instantaneous effect.
Whip: a token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of nonlethal damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 bonus on its combat maneuver checks) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.
Most important issue on the item is the cost. A 400 gp item has no business breaking dungeon ceilings. The item simply failing if deployed in an area without sufficient space is well within reason for its cost and the rules of conjuration magic.
That said, the way I'd run it is to give the growing tree a Str check [ at +6 } to burst enclosures. The tree then forms it's canopy once it hits max height, effectively making "Undergrowth" in the area if it was close to the ground.
By that logic, Frankthedm, a pick and ladder shouldn't break a dungeon ceiling either as they are FAR cheaper than even 400gp.
Most important issue on the item is the cost. A 400 gp item has no business breaking dungeon ceilings. The item simply failing if deployed in an area without sufficient space is well within reason for its cost and the rules of conjuration magic.
That said, the way I'd run it is to give the growing tree a Str check [ at +6 } to burst enclosures. The tree then forms it's canopy once it hits max height, effectively making "Undergrowth" in the area if it was close to the ground.
A 400 gp ONE USE item? If my players wanted to burn their gold on throw away items solely for breaking ceilings out, then more power to them. Let's see how long they can keep that up.
I don't see how this is a problem. If it's being "abused" by popping up every 1.5 years or so, then it sounds like a lack of fluidity of the game. Who is upset about the current ruling? The DM? The players? A bit of both?
If this happened in my game, I'd have the tree make a strength check to burst the ceiling, but only as a huge creature, because I figure the canopy isn't as powerful as the trunk, and the trunk would be 3x3 squares at the biggest. If it broke the ceiling or some walls... so what?
Now if your players want to try to activate them from a distance after they've been fired into a target on the head of a crossbow bolt, you have problems. Nothing in RAW I've found says you can't. (Anyone has evidence contrary though -- other than the bit mentioned about the conjuration school, since that's not definitive -- please let me know.)
Heh, this reminds me of the time that i managed to talk my DM into making Satan's mistress explode. I for longest time had tried to get swallowed since i was a halfling, no dice (literally). So since i was a rogue doing her from behind like pretty much every fight and he described her as wearing "loose robes" I couldn't resist the urge. Using the logic that Satan was considered a large creature and she was medium... I shoved my little fist with a feather tree where it would never see daylight and said activate. He decided to let the dice decide the outcome between the tree wearing her on its trunk, her being perched on a high branch but relatively unharmed, me loosing my hand, etc. and the result was She splatted everywhere and i was unharmed besides needing a few vigorous washings with holy water. Note that we are pretty casual so this kinda goes along with the 'rule of cool'. In general i am open to wacky if it doesn't ruin the plot and everyone gets a kick out of it. Its a game meant for enjoyment. We were literally rolling on the floor for 5 minutes after i announced my actions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Arise, thread! Arise and live!
Story Idea: Thinking of having a wizard use 400 Feather Tokens (Tree) with a 200gp piece crafting cost each for creating a Wood Colossus body.
Wood Colossus Construction
The body of a wood colossus requires hundreds of tons of living trees or raw lumber, costing at least 80,000 gp.