Mounted Combat Questions

[Schrecken]

Hey all im sure this has been discussed before however a mounted combat search did not shed any light on this matter.

Here is the verbatim Rules from the PRD

Mounted Combat

These rules cover being mounted on a horse in combat but can also be applied to more unusual steeds, such as a griffon or dragon.

Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

And the ride skill rules for fighting

Fight with a combat-trained mount DC 10
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

Ok now for my question

Assuming that you do not get a move action because you are using your mounts move action to move

you use your mounts move action to close the distance to a target thereby limiting your actions to one standard action because your mount moved more than 5 ft. Can you then attempt a Fight with a combat-trained mount check (free action) and have your mount make one standard attack (it already used its move action) Can you also make a standard action (technically you have used your mounts move and standard action and a free action)

Another scenario

If you are already in reach can you full attack then Fight with a combat-trained mount check then full attack with the mount? (or vice versa)

I guess I'm confused becuase it doesnt seem realistic to take 6 seconds trying to hit an enemy (full attack) while your mount is also trying to hoof /bite over the same 6 seconds

HELP!!

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

you use your mounts move action to close the distance to a target thereby limiting your actions to one standard action because your mount moved more than 5 ft. Can you then attempt a Fight with a combat-trained mount check (free action) and have your mount make one standard attack (it already used its move action)

Yes. Both you and your mount can move and attack

Quote:

Can you also make a standard action (technically you have used your mounts move and standard action and a free action)

By the RAW, yes, since technically the only action that is limited by the mounts moving is making a full melee attack. By the RAI and some of the RAW i believe no, unless its something you can do WHILE the mount is moving like draw a potion.

Quote:

If you are already in reach can you full attack then Fight with a combat-trained mount check then full attack with the mount? (or vice versa)

Yes. A war trained mount is a weapon onto itself and standing in front of a sword wielding knight and a half ton beast with sharp hooves and teeth is a bad idea. If you have a sword this is easy, you and your mount full attack. If you have a lance and you're in range, you make your full attack, your mount 5 foot steps towards your foe, and then he full attacks. If you are right next to your opponent and have a lance, the mount makes a full attack, 5 foot steps away, and then you make a full attack.

[Howie23]

Schrecken wrote:

Assuming that you do not get a move action because you are using your mounts move action to move

Your mount moves. You do not lose your move action. You can use it for other move equivelant actions.

Schrecken wrote:

you use your mounts move action to close the distance to a target thereby limiting your actions to one standard action because your mount moved more than 5 ft. Can you then attempt a Fight with a combat-trained mount check (free action) and have your mount make one standard attack (it already used its move action) Can you also make a standard action (technically you have used your mounts move and standard action and a free action)

The mount moves, during which you can make a move equiv. action. When you arrive, either of you can then make a single attack. If your mount attacks, you may make the Ride DC10 check to fight with the mount. If successful, you may also attack.

Schrecken wrote:

Another scenario

If you are already in reach can you full attack then Fight with a combat-trained mount check then full attack with the mount? (or vice versa)

You can both full attack by making the Ride DC10 check.

[Schrecken]

Thank you for clarifying

2 more questions

why would you ever not want to fight mounted?

if your move is your mounts move do you then get a move equivalent (assuming its possible mounted) ie. Ready a shield?

[Schrecken]

ignore my last post thanks howie23!!!

[Howie23]

Schrecken wrote:

why would you ever not want to fight mounted?

It takes an investment in feats and equipment to do well. Medium creatures are generally understood to need to ride Large mounts, which don't fit everywhere (narrow corridors, ships, etc.) Traditionally, horses don't like dungeons; if your GM follows this approach you need a different creature.

It is also one of the more complicated subsystems of the game that was not particularly improved by Pathfinder, in my opinion.

Schrecken wrote:

if your move is your mounts move do you then get a move equivalent (assuming its possible mounted) ie. Ready a shield?

Yes, this is often used for readying a shield, drawing a weapon, or otherwise managing equipment.

[Schrecken]

Thanks Howie one last question

Why doesn't the RAW make all this nice and tidily clear?

Is it to confuse me?
;S

[Howie23]

Schrecken wrote:

Thanks Howie one last question

Why doesn't the RAW make all this nice and tidily clear?

Is it to confuse me?

Yes. I think there is blog out there somewhere from one of the developers entitles "Mounted Combat: How we Planned Schrecken's Insanity Defense." :D

[BigNorseWolf]

Schrecken wrote:

Thank you for clarifying

2 more questions

why would you ever not want to fight mounted?

Unless you are a druid or a caviler any normal mount that you are riding will have all the survivability of a chocolate bar at fat camp. It will be fireballed, cleaved, or outright attacked.

Also, many dungeons make getting a horse into them difficult.

To top if off, unless you can consistently make the ride check to guide with your knees you risk loosing your move action. For a fighter this means having to use the other action to move, leaving them without an ability to attack.

Quote:

if your move is your mounts move do you then get a move equivalent (assuming its possible mounted) ie. Ready a shield?

Yup.

[Spahrep]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

you use your mounts move action to close the distance to a target thereby limiting your actions to one standard action because your mount moved more than 5 ft. Can you then attempt a Fight with a combat-trained mount check (free action) and have your mount make one standard attack (it already used its move action)

Yes. Both you and your mount can move and attack

Quote:

Can you also make a standard action (technically you have used your mounts move and standard action and a free action)

By the RAW, yes, since technically the only action that is limited by the mounts moving is making a full melee attack. By the RAI and some of the RAW i believe no, unless its something you can do WHILE the mount is moving like draw a potion.

My group descended into darkness over mounted combat rules this weekend, i found this thread and it gave some insight, but i want to confirm.

So strictly by RAW., can you...
a) horse moves then single attacks. You quick dismount with a move action and use your standard action to move.
b) Make a full round action while horse moves as long as it is not a full round attack.
c) You take an action, horse moves + attacks, you take an action.

Honestly I've been thinking it would be easier to just give the mount its own initiative and turn.

[BltzKrg242]

a) yes. As long as your intention was to feed your mount to whatever it is attacking :)

b) yes

c) depends on the actions but yes. You still get your move action and your standard action but cannot make a full attack.

[Althumbs]

read the rules. Only one attack when mounted.

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you
can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to
wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed,
you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
-If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty
associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of
the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.

[fnord friendly]

I haven't played in a while, and we started a new 1st level game last night. One of my players is a Cavalier. Here's the scenario:

Cavalier is using a lance and riding a horse.
His mount makes a single move toward his enemy, not charging.
When the mount is 10' away from the target, Cavalier attacks with his lance.
His mount moves another 5' to make a bite attack (still within a single move, not an extra 5').

So my question is, can the rider take an attack at reach during the mount's move, or does the mount have to complete its move action before the rider takes an action?

I wanted to say that he could, because it would be like readying an action that triggers during the mount's move. However, the mount's initiative is rolled into the rider's, so it gets weird.

Anyone know this one?

[Dark Immortal]

I have been wondering about this same thing myself. Since horses are large but have normal reach this has left me quite curious. I assume you just forsake the mounts attack(s). :/

On a related note, a large creature in a dungeon has to squeeze. Assuming you have the narrow frame feat, is there anything preventing you from being mounted on the large creature and having your cake and eating it, too, while in a dungeon? I assume you can now ride your horse in a dungeon without all the usual limitations.

[daniel rushing]

Dark Immortal wrote:

I have been wondering about this same thing myself. Since horses are large but have normal reach this has left me quite curious. I assume you just forsake the mounts attack(s). :/

On a related note, a large creature in a dungeon has to squeeze. Assuming you have the narrow frame feat, is there anything preventing you from being mounted on the large creature and having your cake and eating it, too, while in a dungeon? I assume you can now ride your horse in a dungeon without all the usual limitations.

I would like to point out that a horse for most standard mounts are a large long which counts as a 1 by 2 square not a 2 by 2

[_Ozy_]

BltzKrg242 wrote:

c) depends on the actions but yes. You still get your move action and your standard action but cannot make a full attack.

Incorrect. You can make a full attack if you're using ranged attacks.

Also, there are mounted combat feats that let you do a full melee attack as well. e.g. Mounted Skirmisher

[_Ozy_]

daniel rushing wrote:

Dark Immortal wrote:

I have been wondering about this same thing myself. Since horses are large but have normal reach this has left me quite curious. I assume you just forsake the mounts attack(s). :/

On a related note, a large creature in a dungeon has to squeeze. Assuming you have the narrow frame feat, is there anything preventing you from being mounted on the large creature and having your cake and eating it, too, while in a dungeon? I assume you can now ride your horse in a dungeon without all the usual limitations.

I would like to point out that a horse for most standard mounts are a large long which counts as a 1 by 2 square not a 2 by 2

Nope, they are still 2x2, they just have 5' reach instead of 10' reach.

You can get the equivalent of 1W x 2L using the Narrow Frame feat.

[Peter Halvorson]

How about a Hunter with the Ride-by Attack feat riding a tiger companion (because who wouldn't ride a tiger). Rider and mount charge, tiger destroys the foe with a full attack courtesy of Pounce, rider and mount continue on courtesy of the Ride-by Attack feat and end up next to another foe. Can the rider then single attack the second foe, using Vital Strike if he has it?

And if the rider had the Mounted Skirmisher feat as well, he could do a full attack on the second foe as long as the total movement didn't run past the mount's basic movement rate?

The rules tend to not be that specific, with good reason. You're expected to be able to combine various pieces. Common sense says that all sounds good, but common sense doesn't always apply to RPGs.

[Peter Halvorson]

Commenting on my own post.

Been browsing FAQs. Mount charging means rider is charging too, both get +2 to hit and -2 AC. Charging does conflict with Vital Strike, so the rider won't be bumping damage on a lance charge. Still wondering if the pair could continue the line of a charge and rider attacks a second foe.

And if the previous is a yes, then I assume a rider with Mounted Skirmisher could full attack the second foe. Mounted Skirmisher does limit the length of the charge, presumably to leave time for the full attack at the end.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Schrecken wrote:

why would you ever not want to fight mounted?

Being a mounted spellcaster is very tough. You require concentration checks to cast while mounted, but their isn't a concentration boosting feat that applies (like combat casting only applies to defensive casting and grappled casting, not concentration issues from vigorous motion due to being mounted).

There is a penalty for ranged attacks made while mounted, too.

Additionally, the meager DC 5 ride check seems low, but when a fighter factors in armor check penalty, this number can be more daunting. For example, a fighter in Banded Mail and with a heavy shield, is at -8 armor check. So it's a DC 13 ride check. Instead with a tower shield, it would be -16 armor check, so a DC 21 ride check.

The other consideration is that while mounted, attacks against the mounts can effectively immobilize or control your character's movement. For example, if your mount is "Frightened" you'll effectively be fleeing, even if your PC is immune or resistant to fear effects.

So, while melee combat may be more impressive, there are definite limitations.

Lately, I've been running a Sorcerer with a Giant Tortise mount. Definitely interesting...

[Marius Castille]

Can a mount take the total defense standard action while its rider makes normal attacks? Or is that a bit cheesy? I’m looking for novel ways to boost a mount’s longevity in combat.

[avr]

No reason why not, assuming it's trained for it - it's not a standard trick but I wouldn't have a problem with one being invented, or the mount being pushed to do so.