Twin Fang Strike questions

[Rylden]

Building a character with the Twin Fang style chain in mind, I have some questions regarding the second feat, Twin fang Strike.

1. The second feat states you can use a single attack action to strike with both weapons but at a -4, is this a -4 and you attack with both, or because your attacking with two weapons, your looking at -6?

2. The second feat also provides precision damage once, even if you strike with both weapons, at the cost of said -4 to attack. Does this by pass the requirement of Swashbucklers Precision damage requiring no attack be made with the off hand weapon? Meaning if I'm a 6th level swashbuckler striking with a Kama in each hand, do I deal 6 precision damage, or no? Why?

Bonus Question regarding Twin Fang Style.

A Double Chain Kama is a double weapon, thus requiring two hands to use. The description states it acts as two kama. The feat requires daggers, or kama, does a double chain kama count in regards to this feat as a weapon that gains the benefit of the feat chain, or no?

Finally...

Does a double chain Kama, a double weapon, thus requiring two hands, qualify for Swashbucklers Precise Strike deed if I don't attack with the offhand kama. Assuming the answer to question two posted above is a no.

[Calth]

1.) Its -4, since you aren't actually utilizing two weapon fighting you don't add its penalties.

2.) No, Twin Fang Strike does not work with swashbucklers precise strike because you are attacking with two weapons.

A double chain kama, if wielded as two kamas, is treated exactly as if you were truly wielding two kamas. Twin Fang Style would work, but you again would not qualify for Precise Strike as you are using your offhand for attacks.

The feat chain is really bad, and should probably be avoided.

[Vaniglio]

Hi guys,
sorry for the question.. Where is this style?
TY

[Rylden]

Feat chain starts on page 105 of the Villain Codex. From a new group of Villains based out of Fang Monastery.

Great background, and flavor, which made me interested to build a character based off of it, and them.

[Rylden]

@Calth

Just to confirm your answer to the first question, in the event you haven't read the feat, and are drawing your conclusion from my wording.

Twin Fang Strike:

Benefit: While using Twin Fang Style, when you take an attack action while wielding two daggers or two kama, you can strike with both your primary and off-hand weapons. If you do so, both attacks take a –4 penalty and you apply precision damage and effects that occur when you hit only once, even if you hit with both attacks.

Would your answer remain the same?

[Calth]

My answer is the same. You are not using the two weapon fighting rule since that only applies to full attacks so you also don't take twf penalties. If they did the feat would be even more horrible than it already is and as it stands no one should ever take the feat.

[Rylden]

Also why do you say precision damage wouldnt apply from Swashbuckler. Just playing devils advocate, but it states you deal precision damage, it doesn't state you have to be following the rules to apply said damage. Sneak attack requires being denied Dex, or flanking, yet you would still apply Sneak attack, why cant you apply Precise Strike?

[SlimGauge]

Precise Strike wrote:

Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

bolding mine

Twin Fang wrote:

you apply precision damage and effects that occur when you hit only once, even if you hit with both attacks.

This isn't a matter of HITTING twice, it's a matter of having attacked with a weapon in the other hand (even if you missed with it).

[Rylden]

While I don't disagree with the "Bolding Mine" statement, thats the general rule of that skill. The feat I linked above would be a specific instance where it states you don't have to follow the rule to apply the damage. It doesn't state you need to have an opponent flanked, or denied Dex, or only attacking with a single weapon. It states you apply precision damage when you land the hit.

[SlimGauge]

What Twin Fang is talking about is things like attacking from invisibility. Normally, you'd only get precision damage on the first attack from invisibility (because it goes away after that first attack), but with Twin Fang, you'd get it on both attacks.

I don't believe it is removing the restriction from Precise Strike. Again, the problem is not that you'd only get to apply precision damage to the first HIT, it's that you can't do it AT ALL if you attack with that other hand.

edit: and Precise Strike is an extraordinary ability, not a skill, but that's a pedantic point that isn't likely relevant

edit2: My remarks about invisibility have been shown to be wrong, see below

[CBDunkerson]

There are many different kinds of precision damage. The twin fangs feats are just explaining that you can only apply precision damage to one attack... not suggesting that all other rules/limitations for precision damage are suddenly null and void. Precise Strike still requires one hand free. Sneak attack still requires flat-footed or lost dex to AC. Et cetera.

That said, I believe for your final question that you CAN get Precise Strike damage while HOLDING two kamas (whether attached by a chain or not)... so long as you only ATTACK with one of them.

[Rylden]

No, Twin Fang specifically calls out that even if you land two hits the precision damage is only applied once.

Twin Fang Strike:

Benefit: While using Twin Fang Style, when you take an attack action while wielding two daggers or two kama, you can strike with both your primary and off-hand weapons. If you do so, both attacks take a –4 penalty and you apply precision damage and effects that occur when you hit only once, even if you hit with both attacks.

I was under the impression that specific beats general rules, based on threads Ive seen. However I'm unable to quote a location of the "Specific beat general" rule.

[Rylden]

@CB Your saying that for Twin Fang Strike to work, when applying precision damage, you have to meet the requirement of said precision, in the case of Sneak Attack, the opponent must be flanked, or denied dex, then when struck you would apply precision damage once, even if you were to land two hits.

Edit: After actually typing it out that way, I can see your point. The feat doesn't go all crazy and auto apply all types of sneak attack, its stating that precision is only applied once, rather then doubling up for using only a single attack action. Thanks! I appreciate the help on that!

[KingOfAnything]

Yes. With Twin Fang Strike, you would only apply sneak attack damage (and rider effects) once, even if you hit twice. Twin Fang Strike does not change any other aspect or rules regarding various forms of precision damage.

[CBDunkerson]

It would be interesting to see a party of Sensei Monks of the Four Winds (potentially with other archetypes added in) with different Twin Fangs, Vital Strike, and/or Startoss type 'standard action' builds.

Sure, they'd suck most of the time, but whenever one of them triggered Mystic Wisdom to share Slow Time with the group... total carnage.