Can you pick up a feat like TWF if you only have a 14 dex but are wearing a belt of dex? I realize you would lose the ability to use the feat when you took it off or your dex drops. But does this stop you from selecting the feat on a level up?
There is a section on it on page 112 of the core book. But I don't feel like its addressing it.
Its not explicitly stated in the rules, but after wearing the item for 24 hours, the bonus is considered permanent, so yes, you can. If you don't like this, feel free to use GM fiat to change it. I know lots of people who would.
Personally, I like this because it allows for some more variety in builds.
Its not explicitly stated in the rules, but after wearing the item for 24 hours, the bonus is considered permanent, so yes, you can. If you don't like this, feel free to use GM fiat to change it. I know lots of people who would.
Personally, I like this because it allows for some more variety in builds.
Since when? Is that spelled out in the PFRPG? Because without explicitly saying it, I don't understand how one implicitly arrives at that assessment.
I may have overlooked it. If so, I'm glad I did b/c that rule... well it wouldn't survive contact with my game table.
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Are you wearing the item?
Do you therefore have the prerequisite?
Then you can select the feat.
But if the prereq goes away, you can't use the feat.
Its not explicitly stated in the rules, but after wearing the item for 24 hours, the bonus is considered permanent, so yes, you can. If you don't like this, feel free to use GM fiat to change it. I know lots of people who would.
Personally, I like this because it allows for some more variety in builds.
Since when? Is that spelled out in the PFRPG? Because without explicitly saying it, I don't understand how one implicitly arrives at that assessment.
I may have overlooked it. If so, I'm glad I did b/c that rule... well it wouldn't survive contact with my game table.
From the PRD Glossary->Ability Score Bonuses:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Its not explicitly stated in the rules, but after wearing the item for 24 hours, the bonus is considered permanent, so yes, you can.
Actually, this pretty much is stated in the RAW:
Your character must have the indicated ability score...
So the prerequisite requires your ability score to be high enough.
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours
This makes it clear that when you have your bonus for 24 hours, the actual ability score itself is increased - it's no longer a bonus, it's now just a new, higher ability score.
That's pretty specific.
You're right, it doesn't explicitly state something like "Permanent ability bonuses can be used to qualify for feats" but that is not really necessary, since permanent ability bonuses simply increase the relevant ability score anyway, and it's the ability score that is used as the qualifier.
Not that Mr. Reynolds needs any RAW cites to back up his ruling, but I thought I would point out that this is in the RAW - it may help settle other similar questions too.
Its not explicitly stated in the rules, but after wearing the item for 24 hours, the bonus is considered permanent, so yes, you can. If you don't like this, feel free to use GM fiat to change it. I know lots of people who would.
Personally, I like this because it allows for some more variety in builds.
Since when? Is that spelled out in the PFRPG? Because without explicitly saying it, I don't understand how one implicitly arrives at that assessment.
I may have overlooked it. If so, I'm glad I did b/c that rule... well it wouldn't survive contact with my game table.
From the PRD Glossary->Ability Score Bonuses:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Thanks for pointing that out.
As to the rule, well, that has to be one of the most abuse-inticing rules I've seen. So basically, every time the party finds a stat-booster or gizmo that adds skill points, etc. It's "Hey, tomorrow Valeros wears it, the next day Seoni wears it, etc.".
Seriously, if you throw more than a few stat-boosters in the game (and since in the "Is PF too dependent upon magic items" thread we know a fair number of folks believe stat-boosters are required, you'll rapidly have a party that has above-average or superhuman stats in every stat.
No, thanks. Consider that rule excised from existence at my table.
Also, is that rule solely in the PRD Glossary or is it in the actual Core Rulebook?
As to the rule, well, that has to be one of the most abuse-inticing rules I've seen. So basically, every time the party finds a stat-booster or gizmo that adds skill points, etc. It's "Hey, tomorrow Valeros wears it, the next day Seoni wears it, etc.".
What would be the point? Valeros would have to wear it for 24 hours to get any benefit. Then he takes it off to give it to Seoni and he loses all the benefit. Now she has to wear it for 24 hours to get any benefit.
If they rotate it once/day, nobody gets any benefit ever. And no matter what they try, only one person has the benefit of one item - which is exactly the intent of the item, right, to benifit the wearer and not benefit anyone else.
Doesn't seem like a problem to me.
Seriously, if you throw more than a few stat-boosters in the game (and since in the "Is PF too dependent upon magic items" thread we know a fair number of folks believe stat-boosters are required, you'll rapidly have a party that has above-average or superhuman stats in every stat.
No, thanks. Consider that rule excised from existence at my table.
I'm not sure why.
You're not mistakenly under the impression that "permanent" means they keep the bonus after taking off the item, are you?
You'll note that the Core Rulebook says "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed" which is specifically referencing taking off the item that gives the bonus (or suppressing it with Dispel Magic or antimagic, or destroying it with Sunder or Disjunction, etc.)
Also, is that rule solely in the PRD Glossary or is it in the actual Core Rulebook?
Both.
It's in the Core Rulebook.
It's not abuse-able, because you ignored the last line there. "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
It still counts as an enhancement bonus, but can be used for meeting pre-reqs as long as the item is worn. If you have a feat (two weapon fighting, for instance), and suddenly don't have the pre-reqs for it anymore, then you don't get the benefit of the feat.
I fail to see how this is highly abusable. The items themselves aren't free. They aren't even cheap, actually. Most official adventure paths will take you to level 13-ish, and from 1-13 you actually have to watch your expenditures. At 10 you can afford to add +2s to most of your stats, but you're sacrificing something else in order to do so.
It's in the Core Rulebook.
It's not abuse-able, because you ignored the last line there. "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
It still counts as an enhancement bonus, but can be used for meeting pre-reqs as long as the item is worn. If you have a feat (two weapon fighting, for instance), and suddenly don't have the pre-reqs for it anymore, then you don't get the benefit of the feat.
I fail to see how this is highly abusable. The items themselves aren't free. They aren't even cheap, actually. Most official adventure paths will take you to level 13-ish, and from 1-13 you actually have to watch your expenditures. At 10 you can afford to add +2s to most of your stats, but you're sacrificing something else in order to do so.
I didn't ignore it but perhaps I misread it.
First, if I read "permanent after 24 hours" that reads to me as though it's permanent after 24 hours regardless of whether or not I have the item. Otherwise, why note that it's permanent at all? Wouldn't it be "permanent" by virtue of the fact that I am using the item or have it on my person?
When I read "bonuses should be noted separately in case they (my note added: the bonuses, not the item) are removed" that reads as speaking about the bonuses themselves, not the item. As in, the bonuses could be removed through some means later so note them separately. It doesn't say "note the bonuses separately in case you lose possession of the item".
Hopefully, I'm misreading it but if so, it seems to be worded pretty poorly.
As to the rule, well, that has to be one of the most abuse-inticing rules I've seen. So basically, every time the party finds a stat-booster or gizmo that adds skill points, etc. It's "Hey, tomorrow Valeros wears it, the next day Seoni wears it, etc.".
The Headband of Vast Intelligence works slightly differently:
"This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills."
Hopefully, I'm misreading it but if so, it seems to be worded pretty poorly.
Yes you are, and yes it is.
:)
But now you know.
As far as I can tell, the only difference between a temporary bonus and a permanent bonus is how you write it on your character sheet. A temporary bonus you generally have to remember and have the party bard remind you, "Don't forget your +2s, guys!" On the other hand, a permanent bonus should be factored in when you write your attack bonuses, skills, etc. on your character sheet. Just remember that you need to change everything if you change that bonus.
It's in the Core Rulebook.
It's not abuse-able, because you ignored the last line there. "These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
It still counts as an enhancement bonus, but can be used for meeting pre-reqs as long as the item is worn. If you have a feat (two weapon fighting, for instance), and suddenly don't have the pre-reqs for it anymore, then you don't get the benefit of the feat.
I fail to see how this is highly abusable. The items themselves aren't free. They aren't even cheap, actually. Most official adventure paths will take you to level 13-ish, and from 1-13 you actually have to watch your expenditures. At 10 you can afford to add +2s to most of your stats, but you're sacrificing something else in order to do so.
I didn't ignore it but perhaps I misread it.
First, if I read "permanent after 24 hours" that reads to me as though it's permanent after 24 hours regardless of whether or not I have the item. Otherwise, why note that it's permanent at all? Wouldn't it be "permanent" by virtue of the fact that I am using the item or have it on my person?
When I read "bonuses should be noted separately in case they (my note added: the bonuses, not the item) are removed" that reads as speaking about the bonuses themselves, not the item. As in, the bonuses could be removed through some means later so note them separately. It doesn't say "note the bonuses separately in case you lose possession of the item".
Hopefully, I'm misreading it but if so, it seems to be worded pretty poorly.
Permanent as opposed to temporary. The point is that they are long term and therefore affect your daily abilities and your leveling. You get more rages if you boost your con through one of these after wearing the item for a day. You don't get more rages for casting a spell that temporarily raises your con. Similarly, Cat's Grace wont let you take TWF feat, but a belt of dexderity will.
Ok, my bad then.
I'd still not let items satisfy feat pre-reqs. Just like I'd utilize skill ranks and not skill bonus for satisfying prestige class entrance requirements.
But then, I'm in the "I hate heroes defined by their gear" camp.
Another nit-picky question!
Say you boost your Int to 13 via items and take Combat Expertise.
Since you have Combat Expertise, you can take Improved Trip.
Then, a rust monster eats your belt of giant strength!
Do you still get your bonus to trip the rust monster?
Ok, my bad then.
I'd still not let items satisfy feat pre-reqs. Just like I'd utilize skill ranks and not skill bonus for satisfying prestige class entrance requirements.
But then, I'm in the "I hate heroes defined by their gear" camp.
Like how weakling Elric is able to function without his drugs because of the energy Stormbringer gives him? :)
Like how weakling Elric is able to function without his drugs because of the energy Stormbringer gives him? :)Ok, my bad then.
I'd still not let items satisfy feat pre-reqs. Just like I'd utilize skill ranks and not skill bonus for satisfying prestige class entrance requirements.
But then, I'm in the "I hate heroes defined by their gear" camp.
Actually, if PF magic items had more story-impacting drawbacks, to offset the mechanics-impacting advantages, I'd probably be warmer to the idea.
I know Elric & Frodo are the iconic "gear heroes" of fantasy. But Stormbringer is essentially a character unto itself as is the One Ring.
Frodo benefited from Sting, the mithral shirt, and the elven cloak - but I'd hardly say he was defined by those items.
Items that boost stats, add skill points, or allow one to be eligible for a feat are effectively changing the PC rather than just being a tool.
For every Elric offered, I'll raise you a Conan.
Another nit-picky question!
Say you boost your Int to 13 via items and take Combat Expertise.
Since you have Combat Expertise, you can take Improved Trip.
Then, a rust monster eats your headband of intelligence!
Do you still get your bonus to trip the rust monster?
Yes. Though you can no longer use Combat Expertise, you still have the feat. Since you have the feat, you meet the prerequisites for Improved Trip and thus still get the bonus. Improved Trip, unlike Combat Expertise, does not require 13 Intelligence.
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Yes. Though you can no longer use Combat Expertise, you still have the feat. Since you have the feat, you meet the prerequisites for Improved Trip and thus still get the bonus. Improved Trip, unlike Combat Expertise, does not require 13 Intelligence.Another nit-picky question!
Say you boost your Int to 13 via items and take Combat Expertise.
Since you have Combat Expertise, you can take Improved Trip.
Then, a rust monster eats your headband of intelligence!
Do you still get your bonus to trip the rust monster?
Yes it does. See here.
So, the answer would be no, you can't use Improved Trip if your Dex drops below 13 due to item loss (or poison, or a curse, etc).
So, the answer would be no, you can't use Improved Trip if your Dex drops below 13 due to item loss (or poison, or a curse, etc).
Almost:
Ability damage doesn't actually affect your Stat score so it will not prevent you from using a feat. Curses generally don't actually change your ability score either (note that spells that do this sort of stuff specifically state what they do diminish -- spellcasting for example is specifically called out in touch of idiocy or bestow curse).
Now ability drain does affect the actual score and will cause you to lose access to feats and what not.
Just like I'd utilize skill ranks and not skill bonus for satisfying prestige class entrance requirements.
You say that like it's your houserule. In fact, it's RAW. Those prestige classes don't say "you need a skill bonus of +5". They say you need "5 ranks in skill X". So you are abosolutely right when you utilize skill ranks instead of skill bonus for this.
You say that like it's your houserule. In fact, it's RAW. Those prestige classes don't say "you need a skill bonus of +5". They say you need "5 ranks in skill X". So you are abosolutely right when you utilize skill ranks instead of skill bonus for this.
Personally, I'd have preferred the other way around. As it is, it means "regardless of your talent in the field, entering this class needs you to have spent X times improving".
(inserting foot)If it was applied in real life, companies would have trials because they hired a less competent person who just spent more time in the field.
(removing foot)
But it is understandable, because (1) it balances things: everyone has to wait a given minimum level to have those ranks; and (2) skill ranks don't go away like skill bonuses can: being unable to use a prestige class because one of your stats suddenly dropped by one point, that would be hard.
Well, I wasn't there for this, initially. My question was about the original post. Several 3.5 feats have "Large" as a prerequisite. As I see it, once a Medium creature has a reliable mean to become Large, he can select those feats, right? A ring with Enlarge Person would allow the character to gain the feat, which would be useable only when actually Enlarged. Is this legit?
Yes it does. See here.
So, the answer would be no, you can't use Improved Trip if your Dex drops below 13 due to item loss (or poison, or a curse, etc).
Dexterity has nothing to do with Improved Trip. Also, the feat text's prerequisites differ from the prerequisites shown on the feat table (which is what I saw when I posted).
Seems like the feat prerequisites need clarification.
There are so many typos and errors in this thread that I can only imagine it will only serve to confuse new players even further. Everything from attributing the wrong ability scores to the wrong feats to listing the wrong stat-boosting items to quoting contradictory rules text.
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Yes. Though you can no longer use Combat Expertise, you still have the feat. Since you have the feat, you meet the prerequisites for Improved Trip and thus still get the bonus. Improved Trip, unlike Combat Expertise, does not require 13 Intelligence.Another nit-picky question!
Say you boost your Int to 13 via items and take Combat Expertise.
Since you have Combat Expertise, you can take Improved Trip.
Then, a rust monster eats your headband of intelligence!
Do you still get your bonus to trip the rust monster?
Yes it does. See here.
So, the answer would be no, you can't use Improved Trip if your Dex drops below 13 due to item loss (or poison, or a curse, etc).
Dexterity has nothing to do with Improved Trip. Also, the feat text's prerequisites differ from that shown on the table (which is what I saw).
Seems ambiguous now.
Text takes priority over table. And feats have always included the previous feat prerequisites in them as far as I can remember.
Text takes priority over table.
I have yet to see that rule anywhere but v3.5 D&D. Can you quote a source that says it also applies in Pathfinder?
In any case, though my example might be a bad one due to the rules' inconsistencies, my initial point (that not being able to use a feat doesn't mean you don't have it for the purposes of meeting prerequisites) still stands valid.
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Text takes priority over table.I have yet to see that rule anywhere but v3.5 D&D. Can you quote a source that says it also applies in Pathfinder?
In any case, though my example might be a bad one due to the rules' inconsistencies, my initial point (that not being able to use a feat doesn't mean you don't have it for the purposes of meeting prerequisites) still stands valid.
Except that, as all feats include the precursor feat's prerequisites AFAIK, there is no example where losing access to a feat means you can take a feat further along the chain.
Primary sources usually take precedence over secondary sources. I can't find anything that says that general rule in the rest of society has been overwritten in Pathfinder. The rules text is the primary source, the table is a quick reference of the rules text. If they disagree, the text is correct as it's the primary source.
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This makes it clear that when you have your bonus for 24 hours, the actual ability score itself is increased - it's no longer a bonus, it's now just a new, higher ability score.
That's pretty specific.
If this is the case, does that mean that, after 24 hours of wearing a belt of strength +2 (or of dex, or headband of etc.), the character can now enjoy the effects of Bull's Strength (or Cat's Grace, or Owl's Wisdom, etc.) as well? Is it no longer an enhancement bonus and merely an effect of keeping the belt on?
If this is the case, does that mean that, after 24 hours of wearing a belt of strength +2 (or of dex, or headband of etc.), the character can now enjoy the effects of Bull's Strength (or Cat's Grace, or Owl's Wisdom, etc.) as well? Is it no longer an enhancement bonus and merely an effect of keeping the belt on?
This makes it clear that when you have your bonus for 24 hours, the actual ability score itself is increased - it's no longer a bonus, it's now just a new, higher ability score.
That's pretty specific.
Nope it is still an enhancement bonus. In the same way that if you have an inherent bonus to your ability score it is permanent, but you still need to find a bigger book to increase it.