The levels for the individual adventures in the Legacy of Fire seem to be much lower (especially in the last few adventures) than the recommended levels for the other APS. Why is that?
Creative Director
|
The levels for the individual adventures in the Legacy of Fire seem to be much lower (especially in the last few adventures) than the recommended levels for the other APS. Why is that?
Because we've had a fair amount of feedback that readers are looking for an adventure path that doesn't go as far into the high-level band, and because it's easier to do a 2-level adventure than a 3-level one in 30,000 words. In building the Second Darkness adventures, I've seen that the 30,000 word length isn't an easy one to cram 3 levels worth of content into.
Awesome! Count another vote for the lower level stuff, Mr Jacobs!
I totally disagree. Where on the Forums have DM's and player's been complaining about the adventures ending at too higher level? At least run a poll and give us a vote. Where have you received poor feedback about the content of the AP's being too thin due to space?? I was under the impression that the vast majority of us were more than happy with the old format.
The whole point of the AP's is to run the adventure. So I'd like to see less space wasted on PF Journals and other fluff and more pages on the adventure.
Journals, Town Details, Area History etc. could be released as a separate supporting .pdf.
Why not have an extra .pdf called The DM's Guide containing all the AP's extra's like town maps, back history etc.
I'd happily pay a few more bucks for more adventure material.
Lowering the end level is taking the DM's option to end early if he doesn't like running the higher level stuff.
|
While I'm indifferent to the levels of the AP - i like low level adventures, but then, they ARE easier to write and encounter design is much easier, I do not consider additional fluff wasted space in the AP module - to the contrary, I might not buy monthly adventures for 20$ each just for the adventure (as much as I enjoy reading them, even with games twice a week I couldn't run them all) - the background fluff, city descriptions, interesting locales, detailed essays on gods - make the AP useful beyond the adventure - so please keep that as it is (or at least close to that).
While I'm indifferent to the levels of the AP - i like low level adventures, but then, they ARE easier to write and encounter design is much easier, I do not consider additional fluff wasted space in the AP module - to the contrary, I might not buy monthly adventures for 20$ each just for the adventure (as much as I enjoy reading them, even with games twice a week I couldn't run them all) - the background fluff, city descriptions, interesting locales, detailed essays on gods - make the AP useful beyond the adventure - so please keep that as it is (or at least close to that).
I understand what you're saying but I just think that material belongs somewhere else.
Also only 2 levels is pretty much the same as the Modules.
You can't call level 13 the end of an adventure path!
|
|
Yet - some, like me, for example might not be ath the leisure to buy even more product lines for pathfinder (up to this point I get them all, but that really stretches my gaming budget - I got to pay for more than just gaming...) I think background the background fluff in the APs is just where it belongs. It expands on the background used for the adventure (Sandpoint/Magnimar/Varisia - Desna/Lamashtu for RotRL, the Cinderlands, Shoanti, Abadar etc. for CotCT. To do anything else than run the Adventure exactly as written (I think very few can do that with any adventure) the DM would more or less need to buy the additional background to change/improvise/expand the adventures as needed if he wants to stay true to the setting. DMs not interested in the setting surely find these pages wasted, but probably many pages of the adventure itself won't be of much interest to them either.
I think you could call level 10 or even less the end of an adventure path. The AP is about the developing story of the adventures, not about the levels you reach during play. Encounters can be interesting and quite time consuming without providing enough exp. to level up quickly. If the lenghth of the AP doesn't suffer - I simply don't care about what level the party is at its end.
I too feel that the additional fluff is one of the best parts of the magazine and would not want to see it go. As for the lower level stuff, I'm not really certain how I feel about that. My only real objection is that it may feel a bit odd if defeating a major campaign world bad guy or other big bad and they are only CR 14 runelords, the whispering tyrant etc shouldn't be that low level. One of the cool things about Karzoug was that he was literally at the limits of what a PC could become (excluding the epic level handbook). I feel that with those sort of big bad guys it should feel like the character is at the limits of there power. I'd hate to run a BBEG for a twelfth level campaign path and have the PCs carry on to the point where they could easily whomp on the paths BBEG. The plus side of villains like Karzoug or Illeosa is that even if the PCs get to 20 level they still wouldn't be easy fight. Imagine if you'd run a campaign path that had been against say the whispering tyrant and by the time the PCs got to twentieth level any on of them could easily defeat him single handedly. It is a minor issue with lower level APs but still it would slightly bother me.
Also I can't help feel it may not be a wise approach to the post Pathfinder RPG adventure paths. After all one of the big selling points of PFRPG is that it has solved most of the problems with 3.5e. High level play was one of the major problems with 3.5e and it doesn't inspire customer confidence if the main product of PFRPG (its adventure paths) fails to support high level play. After all if PFRPG does manage to fix all (or even some) of the problems with high level play then why should it restrict itself to the low-mid levels only?
I personally think that PFRPG will deal with a lot of high level issue and it seems a shame that having done that it will still ignore high level play in favour of lower levels. Having said that customer demand is customer demand and paizo should absolutely go with what the customer wants. I jut hope there modifications to high level play start to chip away at peoples perception of high level play as unplayable.
I think this kinda sucks I always thought the paths were to short. Come on guys ending at 13th the high level stuff is what people need the help with there is plenty of low level stuff out there I want the higher level stuff
I know it wontv go up to 20 but come on get it up to 16 17 like the first couple paths
Unless you will do a path that starts at 10th or 13th and goes through the high levels (not likly because of page count)
Please can we have a poll on this and see what everyone wants not just a few people b$~*~en
I think they should make the APs even lower level. But I'll gladly settle for 2 levels per module rather than 3. This is good news for me.
|
Of course, just because they did lower levels in this path does not preclude a path with a higher starting level that would delve into those missing upper levels. Variety is good. I am happy with this idea.
Go Paizo!
Here's a suggestion. Post a sticky on the appropriate AP forum with suggestions for higher level parties. That way, no space is taken up in the printed magazine (the BIG constraint) and more traffic will be driven to the website.
|
Creative Director
|
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that there's as large a cry FOR adventure paths that go to higher level even just in this thread than I thought there would be. It's worth pointing out, I suppose, that the levels listed for Legacy of Fire are "best guesses" at this point, of course; once the adventures are written things like this can change.
I'm not so sure that ending an Adventure Path at level 13 is that bad, though; it's just 2 levels lower than what the other three ended at. And you can still have a BBEG for a 12th-13th level adventure that's memorable. A CR 16 creature's not totally outlandish.
Anyway, I do hear those calling out for their preferences for adventure paths to go to higher levels. It's too late to do MUCH changing for Legacy of Fire, since authors have been at work on this one for a few months already, but again, if the adventures come in and there's a lot more "meat" in them and they can support 3 or 4 level gains... that's an easy enough change to make.
What I'm saying is that the text on the blurbs for the website are, as usual, subject to change.
Anyway, I do hear those calling out for their preferences for adventure paths to go to higher levels. It's too late to do MUCH changing for Legacy of Fire, since authors have been at work on this one for a few months already, but again, if the adventures come in and there's a lot more "meat" in them and they can support 3 or 4 level gains... that's an easy enough change to make.
What I'm saying is that the text on the blurbs for the website are, as usual, subject to change.
This is good to hear. With only going to 13th level I would debate my money spent on an adventure path
I am only working on my first true AP so it's hard for me to say right now. It seems to me the 'sweet spot' of the game is levels 4-12 or so and thats where all the most popular dungeons seem to be targeted. 1st through 4th level are fun in a different way, in particular if you have new players. I would bet that if you retailed the modules separately the higher level modules would sell the least. Of course you guys at Paizo already have those numbers so you know what sells best already.
I definitely would miss the non-adventure stuff. Generally the first section I turn to is the bestiary before even looking at the module. I enjoy the journal also.
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that there's as large a cry FOR adventure paths that go to higher level even just in this thread than I thought there would be. . . . Anyway, I do hear those calling out for their preferences for adventure paths to go to higher levels.
Just adding my voice to that large cry for higher level APs. In fact, I'd love to see one start at 10th. I'd like to see some PCs actually get to use some of those high level capstone powers without having to write out tons of stats myself.
|
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that there's as large a cry FOR adventure paths that go to higher level even just in this thread than I thought there would be. . . . Anyway, I do hear those calling out for their preferences for adventure paths to go to higher levels.Just adding my voice to that large cry for higher level APs. In fact, I'd love to see one start at 10th. I'd like to see some PCs actually get to use some of those high level capstone powers without having to write out tons of stats myself.
Me too...
...I wish you would publish a high level super-module of like 64+ pages!
If you want low level games, buy the Modules. There are loads of low level mini-adventure's available in the Modules, many written by great writers.
The AP's are supposed to be full length adventure's, or at least to 16/17-th level.
Have sales of the last parts of RotRL and CotCT been noticeably lower than earlier parts, if so then that would suggest a lack of support for the higher level stuff, if not...then if it ain't broke...
|
The AP's are supposed to be full length adventure's, or at least to 16/17-th level.
That depends on your group's definition of full length adventure - for 2 of my groups, that means any adventure we can play for more than 3 sessions without someone getting bored and either sabataging it or not showing up any more. The third group went through Age of Worms in under 3 months...
Have sales of the last parts of RotRL and CotCT been noticeably lower than earlier parts, if so then that would suggest a lack of support for the higher level stuff, if not...then if it ain't broke...
I know about a year ago they mentioned that the Dungeon paths started to decline in sales after about 10th level IIRC - I havn't seen any figures since PF started though
|
Indeed, I think that playing with the starting and ending levels of AP's would be great. I like having an edvanture ready for evrey situation or player, and if it could be an awsome AP with a continued, developed story, I'm absloutly for it. if, say, AP 5 (or 6, if the Paizo guys don't want to do it to exprimntle) could start at 6th/10th level, and run up untill the very top of non epic PC power.
I add my voice to the cry for varied levels!
|
Creative Director
|
If you want low level games, buy the Modules. There are loads of low level mini-adventure's available in the Modules, many written by great writers.
The AP's are supposed to be full length adventure's, or at least to 16/17-th level.
Have sales of the last parts of RotRL and CotCT been noticeably lower than earlier parts, if so then that would suggest a lack of support for the higher level stuff, if not...then if it ain't broke...
We find pretty consistently that sales for the last installments of an AP are lower than sales of the earlier parts, actually. It's been that way from the start. Pathfinder's not as bad, though, since we have such a stronger subscription base going on there. But also, Pathfidner APs don't go as high level as Dungeon's did, which could be why we're seeing less of a dropoff. In fact, this data point from working on Dungeon's 3 adventure paths is the #1 reason we went on to do Pathfinder's adventure paths as 14 level or so APs and not 20 level ones.
|
Creative Director
|
We ARE intending to play with the starting and ending levels for the APs. We aren't looking to start them at anything other than 1st for a bit, but I suspect we'll give that a try at around AP #7 or #8 or so. We've already started work on AP #5 and #6, and they're both starting at 1st level, mostly because those are the first two that work with the new rules; it'd be silly to abandon 1st level within a year of the PF RPG's release.
We're certainly adjusting the end levels here and there, though!
|
|
For what it's worth, I'll toss in my vote for APs that reach into the higher levels. Ending at 12-13 just seems kind of lame -- in my experience, that's when the characters really start coming into their own in terms of class abilities, etc. I'd have mutiny on my hands if I tried to wrap a campaign at that level, which means either trying to continue the campaign once the BBEG is gone or expanding/re-working the AP to cover an expanded level range. Both are do-able, but neither easy nor particularly fun. With the current 1-15 paths, I find myself re-working and adding encounters so the PCs will end closer to 18-20. Trying to do that to an AP written for 3-4 levels LOWER sounds enough UNFUN that I'd have to reconsider subscribing for that particular path.
|
|
We ARE intending to play with the starting and ending levels for the APs. We aren't looking to start them at anything other than 1st for a bit, but I suspect we'll give that a try at around AP #7 or #8 or so. We've already started work on AP #5 and #6, and they're both starting at 1st level, mostly because those are the first two that work with the new rules; it'd be silly to abandon 1st level within a year of the PF RPG's release.
We're certainly adjusting the end levels here and there, though!
James: If this happens, are you considering having a sidebar for those wanting to run the AP at lower levels?
|
Creative Director
|
James: If this happens, are you considering having a sidebar for those wanting to run the AP at lower levels?We ARE intending to play with the starting and ending levels for the APs. We aren't looking to start them at anything other than 1st for a bit, but I suspect we'll give that a try at around AP #7 or #8 or so. We've already started work on AP #5 and #6, and they're both starting at 1st level, mostly because those are the first two that work with the new rules; it'd be silly to abandon 1st level within a year of the PF RPG's release.
We're certainly adjusting the end levels here and there, though!
We're years away from this happening. I haven't put much thought into it at all. I suspect that we'd open with a bit that talks about how the PCs should be 5th level before they start the adventure path, and we might give a list of Paizo adventures that would be good to run to get the PCs up to that point. We probably wouldn't provide information on how to run the AP at lower levels, since that would require a significant amount of work and space.
Honestly... that's why I'm a bit timid and hesitant to start an AP at higher than 1st level anyway...
|
Creative Director
|
It's also worth restating that none of the Legacy of Fire adventures are actually written yet. If they come in and they continue to have enough encounters to justify 3 levels per... we'll have an AP that goes up to 15th level or so again. We won't know for sure until those adventures start coming in. A 1st level to 13th level AP is my best guess at this point, though.
|
Creative Director
|
James Jacobs:
What about- if not going for 3 levels per adventure- going for at least two and a half, and finishing at 15th level? This at least allows 3.5 edition players to pick up a ten level prestige class and run it through to the end, even if it cuts things off before the fighters get their last attack or the spell-casters their top level spells.
We already have adventure paths that go from 1st to 15th. A 3rd to 15th would be silly, I think, as a result. If we started at 3rd level, we'd go at least to 17th or 18th level.
|
Creative Director
|
Hmm, not what I thought I was saying. <scratching head> I ammended my previous post after recalling that charcters start at 1st level, so the conclusion of each AP would be at 3.5, 6, 8.5, 11, 13.5, 16, with .5 representing being midway through a level in XP terms.We already have adventure paths that go from 1st to 15th. A 3rd to 15th would be silly, I think, as a result. If we started at 3rd level, we'd go at least to 17th or 18th level.James Jacobs:
What about- if not going for 3 levels per adventure- going for at least two and a half, and finishing at 15th level? This at least allows 3.5 edition players to pick up a ten level prestige class and run it through to the end, even if it cuts things off before the fighters get their last attack or the spell-casters their top level spells.
OH! yeah. that's sort of how it's been working lately, actually. Since XP runs so fast at low levels, you pretty much hit 4th level in one adventure. After that it's mostly 3 levels, till high up it drops to 2.
I suspect that we'll probably settle on something like this, though, for Legacy of Fire:
Howl of the Carrion King: Characters reach 4th level.
House of the Beast: Characters reach 6th level.
The Jackal's Price: Characters reach 8th level.
The End of Eternity: Characters reach 10th level.
The Impossible Eye: Characters reach 12th level.
The Final Wish: Characters reach 14th level.
Which is, frankly, still pretty extensive a range of levels.
|
Creative Director
|
Hmm. The word count reduction is problematic, but a lot of words at the start of a module go on setting things up. <further scratching head> Does a 40000 word module need more words to set up than a 30000 word module?
Not really. That extra 10,000 words generally went in to detailing areas of an adventure that didn't really play into the campaign's overall plot arc, actually. Like the Graul Homestead or the Vekker Cabin or the like. Which meant that these longer adventures had more XP in them, of course, but not really more story.
|
Creative Director
|
Now... if we WERE to do a stand-alone high level mega-adventure, what I'd be sorely tempted to do would be to set it up as a sequel of sorts to an Adventure Path. Maybe something that ties together elements from two or even three Adventure Paths, so it could serve as a continuation for several APs, even. High-level adventures take more time to write and develop and edit, and taking them off of the monthly schedule would be a HUGE advantage to us here at Paizo as well...
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
Now... if we WERE to do a stand-alone high level mega-adventure, what I'd be sorely tempted to do would be to set it up as a sequel of sorts to an Adventure Path. Maybe something that ties together elements from two or even three Adventure Paths, so it could serve as a continuation for several APs, even. High-level adventures take more time to write and develop and edit, and taking them off of the monthly schedule would be a HUGE advantage to us here at Paizo as well...
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
Hmmm ... I just might, especially if it dealt with the peskily cursed Vancaskerkin clan ::laughing:: My group is starting to get mightily curious about what some poor fool in this family did to curse the whole bloodline!
Now... if we WERE to do a stand-alone high level mega-adventure, what I'd be sorely tempted to do would be to set it up as a sequel of sorts to an Adventure Path. Maybe something that ties together elements from two or even three Adventure Paths, so it could serve as a continuation for several APs, even. High-level adventures take more time to write and develop and edit, and taking them off of the monthly schedule would be a HUGE advantage to us here at Paizo as well...
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
I think I shelled out that much for Return to the ToEE (among others)and I'd much rather see an expansion to RotRL or CotCT. Both of those are just screaming for a sequel.
I've always been a fan of the mega-adventure, (Desert of Desolation and Queen of Spiders come to mind) and so far I've really liked your high level stuff. I'd be really interested to see what you would do for 20th level fare.
Now... if we WERE to do a stand-alone high level mega-adventure, what I'd be sorely tempted to do would be to set it up as a sequel of sorts to an Adventure Path. Maybe something that ties together elements from two or even three Adventure Paths, so it could serve as a continuation for several APs, even. High-level adventures take more time to write and develop and edit, and taking them off of the monthly schedule would be a HUGE advantage to us here at Paizo as well...
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
You have seen enough of me on the pro high level threads James you know I would support it and buy it the day it came out
I too wish to see higher-level adventures. Throwing together opposition for low- to mid-level party isn't that hard, but doing this for PCs of levels 7+ is increasingly time-consuming. Even if published AP seem to be too easy for moderately optimized and intelligently-played PCs at these levels I'm willing to pay for them, because it is still much easier to adjust the opposition, than to write enormous stat blocks from scratch. Also, I prefer to end my campaigns on an earth-shattering clash with a world-level threat that changes the course of history. AoW, ST and RotRL can provide that, with some easy flavor tweaks. CoCT cannot, even with mechanically powerful antagonists of its final part - after all, what is one (not very big) city, compared to consequences of failure against Karzoug or Kyuss? The Second Darkness seems to be heading in the right direction for me, but I fear, that a less epic and lower-powered AP won't be able to hold my interest.
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
I know that I would.
|
|
CoCT cannot, even with mechanically powerful antagonists of its final part - after all, what is one (not very big) city, compared to consequences of failure against Karzoug or Kyuss? The Second Darkness seems to be heading in the right direction for me, but I fear, that a less epic and lower-powered AP won't be able to hold my interest.
soilers to CotCT:
Mr. Jacobs:
I'm in for a super module, espacially if there will also be a PDF avilable.
|
|
Now... if we WERE to do a stand-alone high level mega-adventure, what I'd be sorely tempted to do would be to set it up as a sequel of sorts to an Adventure Path. Maybe something that ties together elements from two or even three Adventure Paths, so it could serve as a continuation for several APs, even. High-level adventures take more time to write and develop and edit, and taking them off of the monthly schedule would be a HUGE advantage to us here at Paizo as well...
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
Yes, for a number of reasons.
1) This is a rarity, especially from Paizo, and with that expectation I don't mind paying more every once in a while.
2) It's basically 2x the cost of an AP module, and if it covers 5 levels then it would be about 2x the length as well.
3) More stuff from Paizo is always good.
Heck, even if you took a few months off from APs to produce it I wouldn't mind. This low CAN$ exchange rate is killing me.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
Something which could serve as a capstone for multiple APs would be well worth $30. It could then follow up any of the associate APs, be run on its own, or be run after a particular group runs through two or more of the full APs. Sounds like a great idea! When can I preorder it?
|
|
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
nonono the question then becomes: When will I find time to read it after I buy it.. I Would much perfer this route to the higher adventure path
Throw in my vote for not only an AP that tackles the higher levels (14th and up) but also a big, stand alone, high-level mamba-jamba :) :)
Honestly, while I do largely subscribe just for reading material (I've only recently started DMing again, and with a new baby on the way that's going to go on hold yet again), there's still something about higher level adventures that rocks....no doubt because they're such a pain to construct on my own. Low and mid level? Phah, that's kiddie stuff, and I can whip up something twisted for an evening or two's entertainment off the top of my head. But something to challenge the double digit characters? Now you're talking!
So, please (pretty, pretty please) Paizo....I know that ultimately such modules might not sell as well as your lower/mid-level products, but damnit all, us high level adventure gluttons are a niche market that is ever so greedy and almost perpetually starved for product.
Cheers,
Colin
|
BUT: The question then becomes would enough people want to shell out 30 bucks or so for a big stand-alone adventure product that goes from, say, 15th level to 20th?
I would definately be interested in such a product. Especially so if it capped multiple AP's (like as a possible follow-on to RotRL and/or CotCT).
I think $30 for such a product would be pretty reasonable if it were like the Pathfinder issues (a 96-page perfect bound soft-cover). I would especially think so if it were basically 95 pages worth of adventure and a TOC (though I'd be fine if it included a gazetteer and maybe an article of the BBEG).
It would actually be pretty cool if you guys put out something like this once every couple of years. Maybe it could be an optional purchse (outside of a sub), but the PDF availble if Pathfinder subscribers preorder, or something like that.
-Skeld
|
Creative Director
|
Interesting feedback.
It's certainly worth noting that my $30 price point was totally off the top of my head. Thinking more on it, a 15th–20th level adventure would be about 100,000 words long, likely with another 20,000 words or so of support material. Which means it'd be at least a 160 page book, maybe 200 pages or more. We've not really done softcover books in this page range yet, so I have no idea how the cost would break down. But it'd certainly be more expensive, and it'd certainly sell less than a lower level adventure of the same size (that's just a fact of life for high level adventures, I'm afraid), so the print run wouldn't be as huge as for a Pathfinder...
All of which means that we could be talking $40 or $50 or more. At which point we'd probably make it a hardcover and maybe think about a poster map... who knows?
We ARE looking at methods for doing high level adventures though... but we're still relatively far away from doing them for real.
But it's good to know that there's a pretty vocal support for them! :-)