Yes, but conservative or traditional relative to what?
Well by default, I would say to what most readers of the material would know from living in their society. If you want to diverge from that default assumption, then it should be stated. I mean isn't that kind of the argument why homosexuals are being included? That by default we assume that they are going to be in any sizable population of people (specifically humans), and so no including them would seem artificial. I am merely suggesting that making a "traditionalist" character homosexual when in our everday life we know that it is more likely that someone who is homosexual will also be a "non-traditionalist" (perhaps due to social pressure) also can feel artifical, without some detail as to why we are seeing our default assumptions being not applicable.
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Eh, I couldn't care less either way I actually like that they are willing to include such instances, personally I find that there are more instances of gay couples in fantasy than interracial, (and by that i mean interspecies interratial, not human/orc) Being married to the most beautiful black woman on the planet just once I'd like to see an instance where a white NPC was coupled with a black one. But when there are orcs and unicorns about, the subtleties of skin color tend to be completely ignored.
Yes, but conservative or traditional relative to what?Well by default, I would say to what most readers of the material would know from living in their society. If you want verge from that default assumption, then it should be stated.
Yes, that is the default assumption. Then why bring up the argument about gay paladins at all?
That is why the whole gay paladin comes across to alot of people as either pandering or as a joke. Now if it was expanded on that in that particular faith, all (or almost all) paladins are in fact homosexual, that it is the tradition for that faith, that would be something. But as it is, it seems, at least superficially, to be a jab in the eye of folks who are themselves more conservative or traditionalist (i.e. "Lawful" in the D&D sense).
A gay paladin in Varisia is hardly pandering or a joke since he fits in with the region he lives in. Golarion is a fictional world and is different from Earth in many ways, it has its own logic and its own consistency, I don't see why you brough it up at all unless you believe it was a concious effort by Paizo to introduce gay characters simply for the sake of having them. In other words, an agenda by Paizo...
Creative Director
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...just once I'd like to see an instance where a white NPC was coupled with a black one. But when there are orcs and unicorns about, the subtleties of skin color tend to be completely ignored.
In Pathfidner #1, the sheriff of Sandpoint's in a relationship with the owner of the local brothel. Alas... there's no art to show it... but they're an example of an interracial couple. Also, in the same adventrue...
So the interracial relationships are certainly there in Pathfinder.
I've been busy the last few days and haven't been able to post, but I get back and see there are 3 threads about Galorian sexuality.
I haven't read more than the first couple pages of this, but how has it gone on for so many pages.
Discussing semantics and "reality" in the world of a gaming setting is like arguing whether or not we should argue that there seems to me 4 seasons illustrated in the material (totally over done) or that it's a "trope" for trees to be green and the sky to be blue.
The printed material is a suggestion of a way to view an imaginary play-scape. If you can allow for a Naga tribe trying to summon a serpent god, why is it even an issue as to whether the chief priest is bisexual or not(speaking of that, how does the difference in serpent genitalia from human impact the socio-economic structure of the Naga way of life in comparison to neighboring human settlements...geez!).
(Last time I checked it was pretty usual for most DM's to absolutely forbid the Book of Erotic Fantasy because it runs the risk of making gaming into a "neck-bearded" "sword-slinging" wet dream- a reason why "we" always attract flack to this wonderful hobby by other "cooler" kids and more "mature" adults.)
All in all, I think it's neat that the setting allows for a variety of human forms of sexuality in a gaming arena that is traditionally portrayed as for young to middle-aged heterosexual white males. Albeit, I'm one of these, I know of gay gamers that would really appreciate the consideration in adding more of their life's social/sexual world in bits of Galorian flavor.
Later guys.
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Yes, but conservative or traditional relative to what?Well by default, I would say to what most readers of the material would know from living in their society. If you want to diverge from that default assumption, then it should be stated. I mean isn't that kind of the argument why homosexuals are being included? That by default we assume that they are going to be in any sizable population of people (specifically humans), and so no including them would seem artificial. I am merely suggesting that making a "traditionalist" character homosexual when in our everday life we know that it is more likely that someone who is homosexual will also be a "non-traditionalist" (perhaps due to social pressure) also can feel artifical, without some detail as to why we are seeing our default assumptions being not applicable.
I don't think it needed to be stated. Whether Paizo thinks that the 'default assumption' is that gays are accepted or not, it does not need to be stated one way or the other. In all the situations where they have mentioned anyone's sexuality, it has been brief and to the point. It hasn't really dealt with other people's reactions - only that a 'relationship' exists. That's what the DM needs to make it work.
As for gays being more likely to be 'liberal' or 'traditionalist', that's something that you're going to be just speculating on. From certain Christian figures that have admitted to having same-sex relationships and being heroin addicts to closeted homosexual accountants, there are many 'traditionalists' that exist but you might not know that they're gay. Sure, if you travel to San Francisco you're likely to see some people who are 'advertising' the fact that they are gay. But everyday you probably see people that don't. It is possible to have a particular view about sexuality for oneself and still be a 'traditionalist'. At least, in most respects.
Don't let the most vocal members of a community make you blind to the fact that there are always less vocal members of a community.
I don't think it needed to be stated. Whether Paizo thinks that the 'default assumption' is that gays are accepted or not, it does not need to be stated one way or the other. In all the situations where they have mentioned anyone's sexuality, it has been brief and to the point. It hasn't really dealt with other people's reactions - only that a 'relationship' exists. That's what the DM needs to make it work.
That is not exactly accurate. There has been a brief discussion of how others felt about it. The immoral family in Sandpoint had a problem with it.
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I don't think it needed to be stated. Whether Paizo thinks that the 'default assumption' is that gays are accepted or not, it does not need to be stated one way or the other. In all the situations where they have mentioned anyone's sexuality, it has been brief and to the point. It hasn't really dealt with other people's reactions - only that a 'relationship' exists. That's what the DM needs to make it work.That is not exactly accurate. There has been a brief discussion of how others felt about it. The immoral family in Sandpoint had a problem with it.
I think you're reading too much into it:
The Scarnettis, easily Sandpoint’s most conservative family, find the rumors of this relationship scandalous and offensive, but it’s unclear if they’re more off ended by the relationship itself or the fact that the majority of Sandpoint is so accepting of it. In any event, the Scarnettis have been doing their best to make things difficult for Jasper in an attempt to not-so-subtly convince him to move back to Magnimar, but the support of the other three families has, so far, kept the Scarnettis from becoming too obnoxious.
Okay. What do we have here? We have a situation where the Scarnetti family, interested in criminal activity, are interested in removing the Lawful Good overseer of the Mercantile League. It is quite possible (even implied) that the reason they are offended is because the two engaging in the relationship are male, but it is also possible that they instead are upset about who Jasper is in a relationship with.
And the accusations of 'immoral' are somewhat unfounded. Titus Scarnetti is listed as Lawful Neutral. Sure, they may be somewhat ruthless in their business dealings, but they may also be somewhat misunderstood.
Even granting that they're upset because it is a homosexual relationship, you have to realize that Sandpoint is a small town. We're talking about a town of about 1,200 people. I don't know where you live, but in a town of 1200 people you often find you're judged by what you do not what you are. So even if the town doesn't approve of homosexuals, they're willing to ignore this particular relationship because these are people that they LIKE without regard to what goes on in the bedroom. Those that are uncomfortable pretend that it isn't happening and those that don't care don't talk about it. So, every now and then someone says 'Jasper is sleeping with Cyrus' and someone says 'So?' And it ends there. Not surprising.
Now, if a gay pride parade went through town, it is certainly possible a lot of these people that accept this particular relationship would have a problem with it.
Again, we're not talking about an agenda. We're talking about a story. You're the DM and you're given the story elements. If you want to make a big deal out of that relationship, or the alignment of the participants, that's your perogative. But the Paladin isn't lawful good because he's gay, and he isn't not lawful good because he's gay. No matter how 'terrible' the sin, alignment is a measure of many things. And a single act, no matter how terrible, probably isn't enough to determine alignment which has more to do with overall world view.
So, long story short, the issue of whether or not same-sex relationships are bad or not isn't where any of the stuff in Paizo has gone. It is just other people reading it in where it was never put. Now, I don't have a problem with that. But to accuse Paizo of supporting some kind of Pro-Gay agenda because of a couple of throw-away sentences is unfair to say the least. To be scandalized because the town of Sandpoint doesn't care about the relationship of two of the individuals likewise doesn't mean that everyone supports it. And the fact that the Scarnettis are 'called out' as the most visible example of people that don't accept it is proof that they're saying 'you must be immoral if you don't support same-sex relationships'.
Now, sure, maybe that is what they mean, but since they didn't say it, maybe it isn't. If someone is assuming that is what they meant, I assume it is because the person in question feels like other people have been accusing them of being immoral for not supporting same-sex unions, and that person is blasting Paizo because they can. Of course, just like the person that assumes Paizo has an agenda, I could be wrong.
That is not exactly accurate. There has been a brief discussion of how others felt about it. The immoral family in Sandpoint had a problem with it.
And apparently people in Magnimar had a problem with it too which is why Cyrdak Drokkus is in Sandpoint. So Varisia may not be so accepting of it after all... but apparently Sandpoint is. Small towns can sometimes be like that. Maybe everyone knows and is scandalized. And yet maybe they all know but, because the setting is more intimate, they aren't going to raise a fuss because you are still a good town member and they know your other good points.
In any event, the fact that the town jerk nobles are scandalized isn't that big a deal. They'd probably raise a fuss to deflect from their own issues. It's not like we don't have plenty of examples of that in real life (J. Edgar Hoover, I'm looking at you). But it does highlight the fact that traditional Chelish values aren't accepting of homosexuality and that's cultural texture.
I think you're reading too much into it:
Just pointing out that your comment that there hasn't been any discussion about how people feel about it was wrong.
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...just once I'd like to see an instance where a white NPC was coupled with a black one. But when there are orcs and unicorns about, the subtleties of skin color tend to be completely ignored.In Pathfidner #1, the sheriff of Sandpoint's in a relationship with the owner of the local brothel. Alas... there's no art to show it... but they're an example of an interracial couple. Also, in the same adventrue... ** spoiler omitted ** I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting...
So the interracial relationships are certainly there in Pathfinder.
Well see I bought #2 first cause I saw it was out of print and they had it at my local store, and thus only have #2 so far, kudos for making me eat my words, at the same time though, I'm not sure the black male in a relationship with the white female brothel owner (insert lame joke here) is a shining example of interatial relationships, but it's better than nothing. I am seriously glad you are making an effort to include them.
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I think you're reading too much into it:Just pointing out that your comment that there hasn't been any discussion about how people feel about it was wrong.
And there hasn't been. One mention of a family that has an issue with one half of the relationship isn't talking about it.
Right now we have a gay couple in Sandpoint, a gay judge in Falcon's Hollow, a bisexual queen in Korvosa and perhaps some iconics. In all of that we know that the Scarnettis either have a problem with one person being in the relationship for some reason.
That isn't telling us about what the society as a whole feels about it. There is nothing in the text that implies that 'in this fantasy setting, everybody embraces homosexuality as a valid life choice, and you should too'. That would be 'an agenda'. I think they've made an effort to present a situation, and only deal with the relevant aspects specific to that situation. So, we know that the Scarnettis object to Jasper's relationship and most of the town does not. We do not know why that is the case.
We don't know anything about the 'general attitudes' or 'social mores'. To imply that they are entirely 'accepting' is a choice that each reader either needs to or chooses to make for themselves.
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We don't know anything about the 'general attitudes' or 'social mores'. To imply that they are entirely 'accepting' is a choice that each reader either needs to or chooses to make for themselves.
Seriously, the scarnetti's maybe just don't think that Paladins should be in relationships at all, maybe they think Paladins being in relationships mean they aren't devoting themselves enough to their cause.
We don't know anything about the 'general attitudes' or 'social mores'. To imply that they are entirely 'accepting' is a choice that each reader either needs to or chooses to make for themselves.
Never suggested otherwise, I was just responding to your comment:
It hasn't really dealt with other people's reactions - only that a 'relationship' exists.
Some people's reactions were discussed is all I was saying.
In Pathfidner #1, the sheriff of Sandpoint's in a relationship with the owner of the local brothel. Alas... there's no art to show it...
Dang, Jacobs, what sort of publication are you putting out here??
but they're an example of an interracial couple.
Oh. I get it. Carry on.
(Dirty mind? I, uh, blame the ellipses.)
Let me be clear. I view homosexuality as abberant abnormal outright disgusting human behaviour.
Hardly a human or unnatural behaviour. At university, one of my best friends was doing a study on homosexual behaviour amongst Callosbruchus maculatus(the cowpea weevil.)
A varity of behaviours have been observed in animals as diverse as Bonobo and Fruitflies. There is an interesting Wikipedia articial on this subject if you care to take ten minites to search it out and read it.
Excuse me, Sir. Didn't you see the sign? It says "Don't feed the Trolls".
A gay paladin in Varisia is hardly pandering or a joke since he fits in with the region he lives in. Golarion is a fictional world and is different from Earth in many ways, it has its own logic and its own consistency, I don't see why you brough it up at all unless you believe it was a concious effort by Paizo to introduce gay characters simply for the sake of having them. In other words, an agenda by Paizo...
The most that is known about views on homosexuality in greece 2000 years ago, comes from a court document. It essentially comes down to that a politican was charged with taking a public office, though he was not allowed to since he worked as a gay prostitude in his youth (who sells his body, would also sell his country). He didn't deny anything, except that he got paid for it, and to find evidence it was suggested to look up his tax reports that he didn't get any income from prostitution (so people assumed if he had any, he would have reported it).
There's nothing abstract about fictional settings in which homosexuality is completely common and accepted. It happend in europe in antique and modern times. It's completely realistic.
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The most that is known about views on homosexuality in greece 2000 years ago, comes from a court document.
I'd also point to Plato's dialogues 4th century BC, "Charmides" and the first "Alcibiades". Socrates is openly bisexual, as were most educated men at the time. The practice was to for younger men to enter erotic (not necessarily physical) relationships with older, politically influential men so as to gain entrance to the world of the Big Boys. Once they were part of that world, they dropped it, married and had kids (as witness the case of Socrates himself). So the Greeks were both ambiguous and open about homosexuality, in that it was an integral element of their society but one regarded to be your first choice only while adolescent.
I'm intrigued by all this discussion of bi- and homosexuality in fantasy RPGs. I mean, in my experience it forms an integral part of the genre, as witness the trope of the Amazons (who are, again, not exclusively homosexual). I'm far more thrilled by confronting player characters with archaic societies premised on homosexuality than in confronting them with a society which is more secretive about it like our own, as long as they are comfortable with that. [Edit.] It's important to me here that I wrote "society" and not "individuals". That's the other thing. Archaic societies differ from modern ones in that sexuality isn't tied so heavily to the private, to individuals, nor is it tied so exclusively to the physical (the act of intercourse). RPGs provide a fantastic opportunity to explore such things, provided all participants are interested and comfortable.
In Pathfidner #1, the sheriff of Sandpoint's in a relationship with the owner of the local brothel.
Sandspoint has a whorehouse in it!
Iomedae have mercy on our souls!Sandspoint has a whorehouse in it!
Iomedae have mercy on our souls!
I'll expose the facts although it fills me with disgust,
Please excuse the filthy dark details
And carnal lust!
Sandspoint has a whorehouse in it!
Iomedae have mercy on our souls!
Sandspoint has a whorehouse in it!
Iomedae have mercy on our souls!
I'll expose the facts although it fills me with disgust,
Please excuse the filthy dark details
And carnal lust!
Ewww!!! The Horror!!! The Horror!!!
WARNING... Link hidden below not for the young or the feint of heart.
And then of course there is Rufus and Burne.
I was wondering when somebody was going to mention them! :-D
IMHO, all you have to do is look at the illustration of them on the back cover of T1 The Village of Hommlet to know everything you need to about the both of them... ;-)
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I always find the 'alternative lifestyle' tag amusing. As a gay man and a gamer I can comfortably say that the latter is much more of a lifestyle adjustment than the former. My hobby informs my purchasing patterns, what I do with my free time, the people I consider friends, the movies I like, the books I read...yada yada. Some people like to imagine that my big gay life is bizarrely divergent from their straight one, but it's not nearly as salacious and fabulous as seen on TV (is anything, really?). If I were to wear an inverted triangle it would probably be a d4 (lord help me).
Quoted for truth!!! :-D
There are times when I wish my life were as decadent/fabulous as our enemies seem to think they are, but if that were the case I'd probably be too exhausted to do much of anything...
Here are my two copper pieces on the original premise of this thread...
As a gay gamer, I appreciated the inclusion of a gay couple in "Burnt Offerings." They may not have played a huge part in the proceedings, but at least they were there for the GM to do with as (s)he wished -- or not.
The fact that one of the couple was a paladin, made it even more interesting to me.
As far as one or more of the iconic characters being gay/lesbian, I'm all for that idea! (Quelle surprise, I know...)
For the male character, I'm leaning towards Ezren the Wizard or Harsk the Ranger.
For the female character, I'm guessing Imrijka the Inquisitor or Lini the Druid.
None of these would be the obvious choices -- like Amiri the Barbarian or Valeros the Fighter.
576 posts of ranting drivel that basically boils down to people having opinions and people being pissed about them while other people have facts and no one cares (both those readings go for both sides so leave me out of it) and I still don't know who the gay iconics are.
Sigh.
So... speculation?
Lessee...
The art for the Belt of Gender-Changing was telling. Ezren has this look of dismayed wonder as he turns from a 50-some odd year old man into a 20-some odd year old woman (observe the rack. no old rack stands up like that without the help of science. therefore it must be a young rack). Therefore he is straight. Talk to any gay transguy: girls are icky and to be one is a nightmare worthy of more than just a look of "dismayed wonder". Straight guys, however...
It's very easy to cast Amiri as not just gay but also butch.
Lem is an expert with playing the flute. Too obvious. Or maybe just obvious enough...
I have found the tarot card of 'Strength'. The ultra-feminine ideal woman who's tamed the big cat. You all know Lini...
Valeros strikes me as more of an opportunist than anything.
No thoughts on Seelah.
No thoughts on Sajan.
It would fit with Harsk's character if he were gay. It would fit very well.
No thoughts on Kyra.
While I utterly adore the Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde feel of Damiel I feel it would detract from the beauty of his insanity if he were gay. There's still too much "ooo, he's gay and nuts, he must be gay because he's nuts" in people's minds. You've created a gorgeous insanity here and it would be a disservice to detract from that by allowing anyone to blame anything other than this poetic "addiction" of his.
Merisiel strikes me as another opportunist.
Alain is straight. He's one who takes what he wants and he happens to want all the serving girls in the tavern. At once.
Seoni may be our third opportunist. Or maybe just opportunisting with Valeros.
There's nothing in Seltyiel's bio or the fluff in the books to give any hint either way. Unless I'm missing something...
No thoughts on Alahazra. She has the vibe of everyone's grandmother (albeit a much more awesome grandmother than normally seen) and no one wants to think of their grandmother in that way.
And... that's all the iconics. Now can we have a stupid gossipy discussion about who's gay and who's not?
I have found the tarot card of 'Strength'. The ultra-feminine ideal woman who's tamed the big cat. You all know Lini...
Yeah, she's into pussy in a biiiiiiig way... :rolleyes:
--Wand of Orcus
The art for the Belt of Gender-Changing was telling. Ezren has this look of dismayed wonder as he turns from a 50-some odd year old man into a 20-some odd year old woman (observe the rack. no old rack stands up like that without the help of science. therefore it must be a young rack). Therefore he is straight. Talk to any gay transguy: girls are icky and to be one is a nightmare worthy of more than just a look of "dismayed wonder".
I don't know about that....over the years I have known plenty of men that have gone to great lengths to turn themselves into women.
Granted some where homosexual and some where not....don't know that the two have anything to do with each other.
The art for the Belt of Gender-Changing was telling. Ezren has this look of dismayed wonder as he turns from a 50-some odd year old man into a 20-some odd year old woman (observe the rack. no old rack stands up like that without the help of science. therefore it must be a young rack). Therefore he is straight. Talk to any gay transguy: girls are icky and to be one is a nightmare worthy of more than just a look of "dismayed wonder".
I don't know about that....over the years I have known plenty of men that have gone to great lengths to turn themselves into women.
Granted some where homosexual and some where not....don't know that the two have anything to do with each other.
Scientifically, they actually don't have anything to do with each other. There's research on it. If you want it you can find it. Try pubmed.
Anecdotally, I'm living with two transwomen. One is a lesbian. The other is still a virgin and really tries my patience... It's still not connected.
I don't know about that....over the years I have known plenty of men that have gone to great lengths to turn themselves into women.
Granted some where homosexual and some where not....don't know that the two have anything to do with each other.
They don't. Transsexuality and homosexuality aren't related except in that they're "allied" politically because both are marginalized and have to do with sexuality. There's a misconception among some people that transsexual is "extra homosexual", but that's...very wrong.
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So.. since there are 500+ posts in this thread, and since I don't want to look through them all, I was wondering if the Iconic James talked about on page 1 has been revealed?
It's the goblin. Actually, the goblin and the golem. They have a place in Kaer Maga. ^_-
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So.. since there are 500+ posts in this thread, and since I don't want to look through them all, I was wondering if the Iconic James talked about on page 1 has been "outed"?
Nope. I doubt we'll ever out our iconics unless we start doing more fiction with them in which their sexual preferences make a difference to the storyline.
Until then, it's probably safe to assume that they're all bisexual, I guess. ;-P
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So.. since there are 500+ posts in this thread, and since I don't want to look through them all, I was wondering if the Iconic James talked about on page 1 has been revealed?It's the goblin. Actually, the goblin and the golem. They have a place in Kaer Maga. ^_-
Hehe... I read golem and thought "blow-up doll for wizards". There's even a "How To" book and everything... XD
One more vote for "I want to know which of the iconics is gay."
More interested in the original iconics than the new iconics. We can leave them a mystery for the time being. Which of the original iconics is gay?
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So.. since there are 500+ posts in this thread, and since I don't want to look through them all, I was wondering if the Iconic James talked about on page 1 has been "outed"?
Nope. I doubt we'll ever out our iconics unless we start doing more fiction with them in which their sexual preferences make a difference to the storyline.
Until then, it's probably safe to assume that they're all bisexual, I guess. ;-P
Well, Ezren is shown in the APG as turning into a woman...
Nope. I doubt we'll ever out our iconics unless we start doing more fiction with them in which their sexual preferences make a difference to the storyline.
Until then, it's probably safe to assume that they're all bisexual, I guess. ;-P
Yes, fine, but this is Pathfinder we're talking about, not Torchwood! ;-)
They don't. Transsexuality and homosexuality aren't related except in that they're "allied" politically because both are marginalized and have to do with sexuality. There's a misconception among some people that transsexual is "extra homosexual", but that's...very wrong.
I agree....and as a homosexual that has no desire whatsoever to be female....thank you ;)
P.S. I don't think women are "icky" either....LOL
I agree....and as a homosexual that has no desire whatsoever to be female....thank you ;)
P.S. I don't think women are "icky" either....LOL
LOL, no problem, from a transsexual who, while somewhat bisexual, leans heavily toward lesbian (take from that what you will - I'm homosexual to someone regardless >_> <_<).
And my vote for the iconic? Merisiel...because rogues do it from behind, and that provides certain complications if she's hetero. ^_-
One more vote for "I want to know which of the iconics is gay."
More interested in the original iconics than the new iconics. We can leave them a mystery for the time being. Which of the original iconics is gay?
Why ???
Don't get me wrong, if the writers decide that an Iconics sexual preference lends to their background and includes it, I'm all for it.
I also applaud Paizo for being open to this aspect of human life and not turning it into a circus act.....it has raised my respect level for the company by leaps and bounds.
Beyond that, use the Iconics in whatever fashion best suits your game.
I don't spend my time running around curious as to if someone is heterosexual....and ultimately it makes about as much of a difference.
Have them "bump uglies" in whatever fashion increases your gaming experience the most.
BTW, I wanted to say how refreshing it is to see quite a few openly gay RPG'ers posting on this thread through the years!
A couple years ago, I was part of a 3.5 E gaming group that consisted of five gay guys -- myself, my partner, my closest friend, the DM and his protege -- and four straight guys (although one of them always gave off a bi vibe to me, but never mind).
Out of these people, only one was playing a bisexual/lesbian character -- a Viking warrior woman -- and that was one of the straight guys!
Sadly, after a good deal of promise, the three of us left the group over a year ago due to drama which wasn't our fault. Two of the straight guys (a father and stepson) were extremely competitive power gamers, and tended to act like the rest of us were there to do their bidding, or were obstacles in the way of their quests. More often than not, one of them would "go off scouting" and leave the rest of us twiddling our thumbs while they did their own thing.
We'd had enough, and confronted the DM on these players' behavior. Unfortunately, they were new friends of his, and he's somebody who's always valued novelty over most anything else. So fifteen years of friendship ended up going down the drain almost overnight... *sigh*
And from what I understand, these two are still up to their shenanigans!
--Wand of Orcus
BTW, I wanted to say how refreshing it is to see quite a few openly gay RPG'ers posting on this thread through the years!
Agreed.
My favorite forum, still goes into "panic mode" if anything of the sort is brought up.In all fairness, this is just the mods trying to make sure that no one is being persicuted.....but it can be frustrating having an entire thread come to a screeching halt just because someone has mentioned.....SEX.
LOL, no problem, from a transsexual who, while somewhat bisexual, leans heavily toward lesbian (take from that what you will - I'm homosexual to someone regardless >_> <_<).
EVERYONE is weird to someone.....as I get older I care less and less, what anyone else thinks ;)
And by the way....James....
THANK YOU for not going into "panic mode" and shutting the thread down.
I know it seems like a little thing....but for some of us, it means a lot.
Yeah, agreed. It's nice to not have to walk on eggshells. Now if only we could convince the rest of the world that acceptance is good...
I am happy thinking that all of the iconics are bisexual. It makes for lovely fan service picture ideas. ^_^
I am happy thinking that all of the iconics are bisexual. It makes for lovely fan service picture ideas. ^_^
What exactly is a "fan service picture" ???
I am happy thinking that all of the iconics are bisexual. It makes for lovely fan service picture ideas. ^_^What exactly is a "fan service picture" ???
Rule 34. >_> <_<
Possibly a less explicit than usual version, depending on just how dirty Lilith's mind's eye is.