What is interesting is how well the two polls mirror each other at this point. It would tend to make one think that this could well be the actual breakdown of the hobby at the moment and not just the attitude of Paizo regulars. Approximately 50% are committed to sticking with the older edition. 20% are gung ho for the new and the rest are caught in between.
In fairness, I think if I had put that poll in the 4E forum, the results would be much different. I did link to it from the 4E forum from another thread, but I don't think it was noticed by many.
Polls in the 4E forum prior to the D&D experience were running around 68% pro-4E and 32% anti.
My vote is in there but I really don't give a s#&~ anymore. I just wanna play: 3.5, 4E, gah!
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In fairness, I think if I had put that poll in the 4E forum, the results would be much different.
Well naturally it would - the question is which would be more accurate. I would tend to think that a poll outside of the 4e forum would tend to sample a larger, less biased population. Those who are not enthused about 4e might not even bother to visit the 4e forum. But 4e enthusiast should upon occassion visit the general forum.
Not at all.
I decided to pull the plug on D&D anyway. With the passing of Gary Gygax (RIP), there wouldn't be a better moment to draw the curtain on the hobby for me.
To all those who won't upgrade: keep the faith brothers, and game on.
To those who will upgrade: everyone is entitled to his opinion, and you're right,life is change and....
....Oh wait....D&D4 sucks! End of the story.
;) Have great games my friends, and don't forget it's only a game.
I honestly have not yet decided. I voted i was undecided but now will likely be staying with 3.5. We currently have two 3.5 games running concurrently on alternating weekkends, One is a Pathfinder game, the other a Ptolus game. I will likely only convert my game if paizo converts pathfinder over. I had been semi exited about the changes 4e was bringing, but as i read more and hear more about it, i don't think it'll be my game. We DO intend to run a 4e game and I will hold out my final judgement for that, but i'm not optimistic. Seems way too different at its core. More like a new system instead of a refinement of the current one. Rather than D&D i feel like i'm reading a primer for tabletop World of Warcraft.
Well naturally it would - the question is which would be more accurate. I would tend to think that a poll outside of the 4e forum would tend to sample a larger, less biased population. Those who are not enthused about 4e might not even bother to visit the 4e forum. But 4e enthusiast should upon occassion visit the general forum.
In fairness, I think if I had put that poll in the 4E forum, the results would be much different.
Dunno if I'm outside the norm, but I actually exclusively read 4E boards now a days. Here, and when I do venture over to ENWorld, there as well. So I'm not sure about that last line (but then I could be weird!)
Cheers! :)
My group and I are still using 3rd edition, but since the 3.5 books have been sold on e-bay for cheap, some of my FTF has picked them up and we slowly converted. So my vote is I'm sticking with 3.5 and unfortunatley, if Pathfinder starts using 4e, I will be cancelling my subscription, and waiting for the gamemastery 3.5/3e stuff to come down in price.
This weekend, the public is getting their first real glimpse of 4th Edition at Wizards of the Coast's D&D Experience 2008.
Among other things, they've posted a sort of primer for their 4E demos, entitled "What You Need to Know About Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition at D&D Experience 2008.".
My question to you is this: Has anything you've learned as a direct result of the D&D Experience changed your mind about 4th Edition?
(You can change your vote whenever you like.)
Please refrain from debating the relative merits of systems in this thread.
I find it interesting how my feelings about the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition, and from 3.5 to 4th edition, are polar opposites.
When 3rd edition was announced, I was skeptical. I had fun with the game I had. Why change? Why buy a whole new set of books when the ones I had were still providing enjoyment? However, the more I heard about the changes that were being made, the more optimistic I became. Each issue of Dragon that introduced new concepts and elements allowed me to see how the game would be better with the changes that were instituted. By the time the PHB was about to be released, I was enthusiastic to see how the d20 system worked and what directions I could take it in.
However, with 4E on the horizon, I've seen nothing that makes me want to change editions. The changes either seem unintelligible to me, or they seem like something I could simply adopt as a houserule. I find it strange that many of the "problems" that people have with the current edition simply don't come up at my gaming table. I'm left scratching my head at the notion of abandoning tried and true classes and races from the core rules in favor of others, the terminology which seems like that which I hear from MMORPG players and "munchkins" than I do die-hard role-players...either the announcements of rule changes have been ambiguous and vague, or they've seemed trivial.
So I'm sticking with 3.5 (well, 3.25...not everything in 3.5 made sense to me either). I'll supplement my already considerable stock of gaming resources with the best I can find here at Paizo and from other d20 suppliers that have proven to have reliable product. I'll make a decent stockpile to draw from when I don't have time to create original material.
If it turns out, once all the 4E core books have been released and I've had time to read through them, that changing editions will be worth the money, time, and effort, then I may do so in the future. So far, nothing I've read or been shown gives me any real reason or desire to do so.
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HAving played 4e at DDXP and having DMed and played 3.5 for the last 5 years I have to say I will be buying a PHB but will hold off and purchases(although alternative means may be used to own a copy of the book).
4e is quite different yet all the same.
This is a whole new system with new rules , new rules breakage and a new set of the same old stuff we have had since Ad&d. The players and the DM will make this a 'good' game not the rules. Me I plan to stick with 3.5 as I have about 21/2 years of DMin material to chew through before I even want to run a 4e game.
However the game is still the game no matter what incarnation it is in. Heck a great DM even made Gurps hella fun for me a few years and campaigns ago, why can't the same be true for this game?
I don't hate 4e I simply want to finish playing with the toys I bought before replacing them with new ones.
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Considering that I have only found out about 3.x roughly 6 months ago, I have been playing ADnD 2nd edition for all of this time. I guess I had been living under a rock, but I picked up the 3.x core books and my group has been working to convert what we can over to 3.x. 4e reads like it would be interesting, but I am going to wait for many years before I bother to get a book or anything similar. I will buy Paizo if they stay with 3.x or use some other method to pick up the 3.x books/supplements that I need. So no, I don't plan to switch gears again anytime soon.
No not at all.
It just wasn't what I was wanting. I find alot of the changes needless. They seem to being changing things for the sake of change. They have destoryed tons of history for the sake of what? I don't like how things seems to be more restrictive and battle centered. If I want a main cambat game. I'll play hordes/warmachine. When I play D&D I want role playing and combat. I don't want to lug my laptop around when I used to grap a note book and a pen. I don't want 6 labtops at a table. Sorry I'm not a old guy who's holding on to the past. I'm in my early 20's and more than willing to blow money on good products. I just don't see 4e as a good product IMO. If 5e comes out I look at that and judge if I like it or not. I wasn't agaisnt 4e, but I will say that there marketing seemed horrible to me. It rubbed me the wrong way. I felt as if they were condescending to consumers. This was a big thing. I went in with a open mind, but a bad product mixed with WotC's horrible marketing/attitude turned me off and not just to 4e but to the company in general. I'm still going to play D&D but with my rules or other companies' rules that I enjoy. In fact I recently picked up Castles and Crusaders which if WotC had a good product I would have happily handed my money to them.
Sorry WotC I have enjoyed some of your past products, let me know if you get your act together.
P.S. canceling Dragon and Dungeon didn't help my opinion either.
Fizz
I had to cancel my subscription to Pathfinder so I'm not sure how much my opinion matters. I am a once and future customer for sure.
I will be picking up and playing 4th edition. I'm not sure how much and I cant imagine it will be a replacement for Role Playing (we will see).
My 3.5 plans hinge firmly on Paizo. If/when Paizo makes their own 3.x core books I will take a look at what they are offering (basically is it better then True20).
So I guess the option I'd like to vote for is missing, namely 'Yes-I was undecided or planning on converting to 4th, but now I'm hoping Paizo will marry the best of 3.5 and 4th together and sire 3.75.'
Paizo has already said that if they stuck with 3.5, they'd have to find a way to keep the rules in print. While they can use most of the PHB (or more specificly, the whole of the SRD) lock stock and barrel, they can't use all of it (like experience and ability score generation). Those they will have to come up with on their own. While they are doing that, they will have the option to modify certain rules to their own liking. They could incorporate certain ideas from 4E if they so desire as long as they make the appropriate legal maneuvers (i.e. different presentation, etc).
So in effect, if they stuck with 3.5, it would really be "3.75"
Well, with everything here changing its name to "Pathfinder" lately, I'm sure the Pathfinder RPG can't be far behind....
;)
Well, with everything here changing its name to "Pathfinder" lately, I'm sure the Pathfinder RPG can't be far behind....
;)
We all know you want it, Dave. Here's to hopin'. I would certainly stick with them if they put out their own system.
We all know you want it, Dave. Here's to hopin'. I would certainly stick with them if they put out their own system.Well, with everything here changing its name to "Pathfinder" lately, I'm sure the Pathfinder RPG can't be far behind....
;)
Ditto that.
That is so NOT my playstyle.
But, whatever floats your boat. :)
Hmmmm, my option didnt seem to fit the choices without using the last one, but... I have made a conscious decision and therefore saying I havent made my mind up would be wrong.
I am in some long term campaign arcs as GM and also in others as a player that will run and run for at least another couple of years (e.g. shackled city is taking about 4-6 play sesssion per chapter, so with 12 chapters, thats 48-72 weeks just for that one to finish).
So I have decided that there will be NO INSTANT conversion of my campaign on release - my players will want to complete the stories we are in with the rules they started with.
I have decided that I WILL purchase the 4e core books, so I can...
a) Assess the game by looking at the final product
b) Try out the game to see if we want to convert (as a group, if we choose not to, I still have a valued purchase for option c) below)
c) Use the books to reverse engineer anything good/cool in 4e back to 3.5e whilst we continue our current games.
So whatever happens, I will be buying the core books, but they may not get game-play for some months after that initial purchase.
Has my mind been changed? No, not really.
Will I convert? Maybe.
Will I stay total 3.5e? I don't at the moment, I still play in DnD without the "A" campaigns.
I play what's offered by the host. When I'm hosting, I check what my players would prefer.
In other words, I'm a gamer friendly gamer :)
[Edit]Also, it seems premature to have this sort of poll based a 2 page set of tournament "learn fast" rules. Anyone that claims "NEVER!" right now is risking having to eat their words later, IMHO. Ask us in July after the real rules have been out for a month. I wouldn't want to bet my business decisions on this sort of poll.
I wouldn't either, but Paizo has no choice. They have to plan their publishing schedule 9 months in advance, and they still haven't received the official rules from WotC. They're in quite a bind, so they take whatever data points they can get.
I'm sure, for the few I know, that fourth edition isn't for me. Perhaps in three years with the 4.5 I will buy the three cores but form now I undoubtely don't buy or read nothing of fourth edition (I have too many 3.x supplements for thrash it now).
I'm sure, for the few I know, that fourth edition isn't for me. Perhaps in three years with the 4.5 I will buy the three cores but form now I undoubtely don't buy or read nothing of fourth edition (I have too many 3.x supplements for thrash it now).
4.5 is not going to come out. Ever. Watch the 'D&D 4th Edition: Character Roles' video on Youtube. I don't think James Wyatt could have stressed this more. After playing a few battles using the delve characters and monsters released after the D&D Exp., I must stress once again: The mechanics are so much more fun and dynamic. D&D is going to be sooo much more fun.
I think that what happened with 3rd Edition is following WotC, and while it may be wise to be reserved, to be completely close-minded to the new edition is just plain smurfy.
I don't know about D&D XP, but events of the past few days have changed my opinion of 4E. My opinion is as follows:
SCREW FOURTH EDITION
I was planning on giving it a fair chance on its own merits, even if it will never be D&D to me. Not anymore. Screw it.
4.5 is not going to come out. Ever. Watch the 'D&D 4th Edition: Character Roles' video on Youtube. I don't think James Wyatt could have stressed this more.
The some could be said about thid edition ¡But it had 3.5 (and later 4.0)! The question isn't is the fourth will have and 4.5 subedition, the question is when this edition will comes ;)
After playing a few battles using the delve characters and monsters released after the D&D Exp., I must stress once again: The mechanics are so much more fun and dynamic. D&D is going to be sooo much more fun.D&D is going to be sooo much more fun.
That's your opinion, and I'm happy about the fact that the fourth will be fun for somebody but for all I know about the fourth isn't a game for me, and it won't be D&D more than in the name. I don't say it's bad, i say it don't likes me.
Please excuse my poor english and take this message as my opinion, don't take it as a criticize to the 4.0).
I was not planning on converting to 4E. The D&D Experience only cemented that feeling. I played the delve and escape from Sembia. While I enjoyed both sessions for what they were, the style of play is not what I ma looking for in an RPG.
The game definitely has a much more cinematic feel in the Hong Kong chop-socky sense. I can see why this would be entertaining, but for me I had trouble with suspension of disbelief because of a number of powers and effects. I guess I like a little reality in my phantasy. As a brief example - sleep and fear worked on skeletons and arrows and swords were just as effective as clubs and maces.
I think a 4E game could be a lot of fun, but it's not the D&D I want to play. Right now 3.5 serves that need best for me.
After playing a few battles using the delve characters and monsters released after the D&D Exp., I must stress once again: The mechanics are so much more fun and dynamic. D&D is going to be sooo much more fun.
Well, you know, different people enjoy different things.
I read the D&D Exp accounts, and it did sound like the players--even the fairly critical ones--were having a fun time. I suspect I'd have a fun time too. But a campaign? I just can't see it. My personal gut-level reaction to that suite of PC powers is "these aren't people" and without that I'm going to have a tough time building interest in a campaign.
One-off combat fests are fun, but campaigns are *intense* fun for me; I think WotC optimized in a direction that just isn't mine.
Mary
but events of the past few days have changed my opinion of 4E
What happened? Feel free to just point me at appropriate post(s), assuming I just missed stuff.
I would be willing to bet large sums of money they will not do 4.5 - it was acknowledged after doing 3.5 that it was stupid to do it.
They will instead go straight to 5.0 in 8-10 years.
I don't think they'll HAVE to; the way they have it planned out, there won't really BE a need for new editions, just revised/sequential PHBs, DMGs and MMs...but events of the past few days have changed my opinion of 4EWhat happened? Feel free to just point me at appropriate post(s), assuming I just missed stuff.
I would be willing to bet large sums of money they will not do 4.5 - it was acknowledged after doing 3.5 that it was stupid to do it.
They will instead go straight to 5.0 in 8-10 years.
That's the first thing I thought when I saw that they wanted to go with a yearly PHB, DMG, MM format. They're testing to see if it is viable to run things that way and cut out the need for a new edition (money-wise). Whether it works is something else.
Stupid question time... why is it I can't vote in the poll? At first I figured I'd just missed the window of opportunity, but it keeps getting more votes.
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I don't think they'll HAVE to; the way they have it planned out, there won't really BE a need for new editions, just revised/sequential PHBs, DMGs and MMs...
That's the first thing I thought when I saw that they wanted to go with a yearly PHB, DMG, MM format. They're testing to see if it is viable to run things that way and cut out the need for a new edition (money-wise). Whether it works is something else.
That's right; they won't need to have a big launch of the 'new edition'. What they can do is, in later PHBs, slip in the amendments as they come up, so there'll be the 'revised wizard', the 'variant cleric', the 'new wording' of that disputed spell effect, in among the brand new classes and races.
This way, the material gets revised and rewritten, but there's a less defined, less identifiable cut-off date, at which detractors can point, and say "You brought out a new edition!"
I voted "No—I still haven't decided either way".
Of course, I usually play a different game altogether (Savage Worlds), and 4x looks like its just trying to copy a lot of what makes Savage Worlds so enjoyable (and do it badly, at that).
I don't see 4x as being less complicated than 3x. I just see it being complicated in different ways. But I'm willing to give it a read and see what its like - and that requires the actual books, not pro- or anti-spin.
Thanks! I even thought I'd looked all over, but apparently that left sidebar was just invisible to me.
The basic cores sells more than any supplement or aditional basic. That's the reason why they publish the 3.5 as a new core or for that they begin to planning a new edition two years later.
This is only one opinion of course, but I believe them about the necessity of 3.5 and thre years and half later they publish the fourth.
Really I hope that you don't see a 4.5 in three-four years but I don't think it.
Please excuse my poor english.
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No one in my game groupS are interested in converting. What people are more excited about are house ruling in various things to streamline gameplay. For example?
1. No more critical threat. Roll a critical threat, it's a critical. A roll to confirm = instant kill. This will drastically speed up game play.
They aren't actually doing this are they? *shudder*
Yeah it will speed up gameplay until you need 3 different characters for one session.
No changes here. WOTC just keeps reinforcing why 3.5 is a perfect system. The only way they had a chance to reinvent the wheel was to first break the old one (negative PR). And even that has failed as far as I am concerned. As others have said, this reads like a minitures wargame; not the D&D I grew up and loved most of my life. My 3.5 books are still golden!
Let's keep in mind that D&D was spawned from a miniatures wargame (Chainmail) with magic and monsters thrown in along with the concept of a dungeon setting and small groups instead of a battlefield and armies. D&D, of course, became much more than that... Focusing on simplified miniatures rules seems either a step backward or an attempt to make the game more accessible. Depends on your point of view.
I've pre-ordered 4e, but will make up my mind when I read the rules first-hand.
Michael :)
I have cooled off a little on 4E since hearing the experience of people who have seen actual gameplay rather than fluff descriptions and teasers. However, only a little, since the gameplay they experienced was still not finalized product. That and that alone will decide me.
This whole thing comes as my gaming group moves into Mutants and Masterminds, and after that, probably HERO or Call of Cthulhu. We might not be in the mood for D&D for at least a year or so and by then I should know more.
After my last run with 3.5, I'm just about ready to take a long, long vacation from D&D. It will have to change significantly and drastically to get me to come back as a GM; if I have a problem with 4E it's that they didn't change enough stuff.
"Has news from the D&D Experience changed your mind?"
No , wasn't planning to run either 4th, or 3.5.
I come to Paizo for the new ideas, or old ones in new and shiny wrapping.
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Oops, just noticed the "please refrain from discussing the systems in this thread bit."
Suffice to say that I am still going to buy the 4e core stuff and give it a thorough read-through and form my own opinions about the actual mechanics of it. But based on what I've seen so far, I really don't like it much, and will likely be sticking with 3.5 for a long time.
Well, with everything here changing its name to "Pathfinder" lately, I'm sure the Pathfinder RPG can't be far behind....
;)
I *AM* the man!!!!
;)
Woohoo!!!!!!
I am not at liberty to speak for the editing staff over at the D&D Archive site (and even if we had reached a consensus it would be more appropriate for DeadDMWalking to serve as our ambassador here) but I can tell you it doesn't look good for 4E on our end. I, personally, do not intend to make the transition.