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I want to see more non-evil outsiders. We have slews of demons and devils and daemons and other evil outsiders but not so many celestials and proteans and aeons. We especially need more proteans.
Anyone know if munavri is being nerfed to make it more player suitable?
You don't need to "nerf" a race to make them playable you just need to make the rest of them stronger;)
Funny, in my experiences bullies were not pretty. Even the few that were girls were more ogre-like then anything.
Looks like no.
Someone should probably tell that to whoever wrote the bestiary 6 product description which says it's for PC's.
Because they are a 0HD race and they could be a playable option if your DM says they can.
Because they are a 0HD race and they could be a playable option if your DM says they can.
If we want to get technical, balors can be a playable option if your DM says they can... If a race isn't designed for PC use (like Balor, Drow Noble, Ogres, or Munvari) then they probably shouldn't advertise it as a "player-character-suitable" race.
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Well, a balor is an obviously hyperbolic comparison. To me, the dividing line has always been racial Hit Dice, because they screw up character math. That's why I've never considered gnolls or lizardfolk to be PC races, despite peoples' desire for them.
As for differences in power level, they put the svirfneblin alongside the other races in the Advanced Race Guide. And androids are generally advertised as "player-character suitable", despite a laundry list of resistances and immunities. Heck, I hear of people allowing orc PCs all the time, and I'd think twice before allowing that myself.
I think it's just a factor of what a given GM feels comfortable with for the campaign they're running. While I'd consider the situation at hand before allowing a munavri, it's certainly not on the same level as "let me play a CR 20 archdemon". ^_^
I wonder how many Trox player characters are running around. :-)
Well, a balor is an obviously hyperbolic comparison.
Extreme but not hyperbolic, bestiary has rules for playing any monster in the game as long as you have GM permission.
If I wanted to be hyperbolic I'd say about GM permission isn't really a special thing in Pathfinder, since it's literally rule zero and rule zero can allow theoretically anything and that people could with GM permission play galaxies :P
To me, the dividing line has always been racial Hit Dice, because they screw up character math.
To me, when the designers say it's not designed for PC's and is meant for making powerful NPC's, it probably shouldn't advertise it's a PC suitable race next to monkey goblins. Intent should matter as part of the dividing line in my opinion.
How do you know the naiad, yaddithian, and/or rougarou isn't closer in power to the munavri;)
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I also want to see something like the d&d hullathoin, a non-humanoid force of undead that creates undead outbreaks everywhere it goes, all that dies in its aura rise as suiting undead, all undead gain more power when the creature is near and fight with more ferocity. They are like Gods among the undead. Atropal could also work for this role.
Sounds like the Diablo video game.
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A redeemed/enlightened soul template would be interesting. If they do make such a template they need to use a succubus or vampire as the base creature.
My preference is to NOT do an "enlightened" template. I feel like being evil is easier than being good. Falling from grace is easier than rising from cruelty. I'm fine with something like a broken soul template, but for a supernatural rise/redemption from evil, I would MUCH rather handle those on a case-by-case, hand-designed, unique method so that the writer of the NPC can do what makes sense for the story without being shackled to a template. See Wrath of the Righteous for this design theory in practice.
Doesn't mean that we won't EVER do a template like this, but it'd either have to convince me of its use with a good argument backed up by outstanding writing and design, or otherwise sneak by me into print, I guess. :-P
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As for our terminology, I much prefer calling them "0-HD races" since that doesn't imply that Paizo is giving permission to players across the world that they're approved choices for PC races, but "0-HD races" doesn't make any sense to someone who doesn't know the rules well (such as the case for many buyers and retailers, who if something doesn't make sense, have a good chance of not being interested and not buying the product and thus preventing the product from being sold to those who ARE interested), so we use a more descriptive and obvious description instead. It sacrifices some of the in-game accuracy to build hype and serve as ad-text, sort of.
In any case, which races are options for your group is ALWAYS up to the GM, and as a result, I am 100% comfortable and fine with building races in a wide range of power—from drow matrons and munavris all the way down to kobolds. Most of them do and should cleave pretty closely to the core race assumption, but sometimes they don't. When they don't we say so in the text (in the case of the Munavri and drow matron, we do so by noting their CR is higher than standard).
A redeemed/enlightened soul template would be interesting. If they do make such a template they need to use a succubus or vampire as the base creature.My preference is to NOT do an "enlightened" template. I feel like being evil is easier than being good. Falling from grace is easier than rising from cruelty. I'm fine with something like a broken soul template, but for a supernatural rise/redemption from evil, I would MUCH rather handle those on a case-by-case, hand-designed, unique method so that the writer of the NPC can do what makes sense for the story without being shackled to a template. See Wrath of the Righteous for this design theory in practice.
Doesn't mean that we won't EVER do a template like this, but it'd either have to convince me of its use with a good argument backed up by outstanding writing and design, or otherwise sneak by me into print, I guess. :-P
If it's ever done, I'd honestly prefer to have it called the "Risen Fiend" template. It sounds like an awesome idea though (I so want to see a Risen Erinyes). It's been proven that fiends can rise to goodness. After all, the Plane of Heaven has the Redeemed (aka Devils who have risen to become unique celestials). They may be few in number compared to the Fallen (aka Celestials who fall from grace) but that doesn't mean they don't exist. :D
They were featured in the Pathfinder Tales book "The Redemption Engine" so it's canon.
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True. They are incredibly rare, but as James Sutter points out in his novel, the planes are infinite. Even tiniest fraction of a percent of infinity means that there will still be quite a few scattered around the multiverse.
But I still agree with James. I think each redeemed fiend should be a unique creature, rather than something created through the application of a template.
My preference is to NOT do an "enlightened" template. I feel like being evil is easier than being good. Falling from grace is easier than rising from cruelty. I'm fine with something like a broken soul template, but for a supernatural rise/redemption from evil, I would MUCH rather handle those on a case-by-case, hand-designed, unique method so that the writer of the NPC can do what makes sense for the story without being shackled to a template. See Wrath of the Righteous for this design theory in practice.
Doesn't mean that we won't EVER do a template like this, but it'd either have to convince me of its use with a good argument backed up by outstanding writing and design, or otherwise sneak by me into print, I guess. :-P
While I am pleased to know that you still have an open mind about it, it's a shame to think that a human concept such as "being evil is easier than being good" would make it harder to introduce an useful template as this. Biding the entire multiverse to the idea that "falling is easier than rising" would be a really blank conception. Well, as I said, I'm pleased to know that you, as Creative Director, still have an open mind to it.
Specially because yous said that something as the broken soul, a creature that was forced to "fall" by torture, is easier to accept. As the one who originally proposed the "redeemed template", I did say that this tamplate would be a counterpart to the broken creature. It shouldn't be a "supernatural rise", but rater "forced" or "compelled" process, as if a celestial or any good entity/deity (Sarenrae or a Gold Dragon) was influencing the creature to become self aware of the virtue in goodness. Maybe there's a manasaputra doing it now ("Manus aspire to elevate members of a specific race or type of creature to enlightenment").
Back to the product, at least now we know there aren't any enlightened template in B6. XD
Darn, with 10 new posts from last night, I was hoping it was a product update:( But since it doesn't come out for at least 3 months, I think it might be early for a product update;)
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Darn, with 10 new posts from last night, I was hoping it was a product update:( But since it doesn't come out for at least 3 months, I think it might be early for a product update;)
You might need to curb your excitement a bit you keep up at this rate and your not gonna make it to the release date.
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But I still agree with James. I think each redeemed fiend should be a unique creature, rather than something created through the application of a template.
Eh, to each their own. :D
It shouldn't be a "supernatural rise", but rater "forced" or "compelled" process, as if a celestial or any good entity/deity (Sarenrae or a Gold Dragon) was influencing the creature to become self aware of the virtue in goodness.
I disagree. Arueshalae wasn't forced into goodness. She was shown a different path by Desna and through the help of good-aligned adventurers, rose to become a risen-fiend. At no point was she forced to do anything.
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Creative Director
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But I still agree with James. I think each redeemed fiend should be a unique creature, rather than something created through the application of a template.Eh, to each their own. :D
It shouldn't be a "supernatural rise", but rater "forced" or "compelled" process, as if a celestial or any good entity/deity (Sarenrae or a Gold Dragon) was influencing the creature to become self aware of the virtue in goodness.I disagree. Arueshalae wasn't forced into goodness. She was shown a different path by Desna and through the help of good-aligned adventurers, rose to become a risen-fiend. At no point was she forced to do anything.
Exactly. A HUGE part of it is that the outsider has to choose of its own free will to rise or fall, and that's hard for outsiders to do since they don't have free wills in most cases, being scions of their alignment and the like.
I disagree. Arueshalae wasn't forced into goodness. She was shown a different path by Desna and through the help of good-aligned adventurers, rose to become a risen-fiend. At no point was she forced to do anything.
While she wasn't forced, she was influenced, and that's totally what I meant. Desna and good-aligned adventures had a BIG part in the process. While I used the word forced, I also use the word COMPELLED, and I even completed it with "influencing the creature to become SELF AWARE of the virtue in goodness".
Exactly. A HUGE part of it is that the outsider has to choose of its own free will to rise or fall, and that's hard for outsiders to do since they don't have free wills in most cases, being scions of their alignment and the like.
I totally agree that it's difficult to imagine an evil outsider, such as a vrock, not only choosing to be good, but also surpassing his inner alignment. If there was ever an enlightened template, it would totally fit mortals better. Being as alien as outsiders, the fey and aberrations would probably also be a challenge.
Speaking of templates, I just thought of a question about the product and bestiaries in general. Mr Jacobs, is there an estimated number or percentage of template entries in a bestiary?
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Creative Director
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Speaking of templates, I just thought of a question about the product and bestiaries in general. Mr Jacobs, is there an estimated number or percentage of template entries in a bestiary?
Not really. The number of templates that end up in a bestiary is more or less arbitrary.
I hope there will be at least one template related to the positive energy plane, maelstrom, axis, dimension of time, dimension of dreams, and/or the first world.
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The Maelstrom definitely need more entities, you know, like giant disembodied heads with myriad eyes, slithering abominations, and cocooned embryos that wander the maelstrom looking for a place to plant themselves and grow.
Time, I'd love to see something akin to time-zombies, Frank Belknap long had several stories regarding time, and Clark Ashton Smith had the Timeless Ones
Dreams are a bit tricky, I would have to do some digging in my mythology books to get that one started
as per fey, has anyone considered Poltersprites? Aos Sidhe? Duende? Mogwai? Yaksha? I'd particularly love to see Auberon/Oberon and his wife Titania.
positive energy plane is dangerous, I would prefer that one to be left kind of sparse.
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Actually, it's not always a succubus. If memory serves, the sanctified creature template from the Book of Exalted Deeds used a red dragon as its sample.
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Of course it's a succubus. It always is. ^_^
I'm forced to agree with Nightterror - for once, I'd like to see a less pretty monster as the sample redeemed creature. Redeem a nalfeshnee for me!
(I do still love Arueshalae, though.)
Well they did have a interesting twist to her redemption imo. She pretended to fall in love with a another good aligned hero. Instead fell truly in love and became redeemed. Even her appearence changed somewhat. Her wings became more "angelic" in appearence. While she still has the soul sucking kiss. She refuses to use it unless it's a aboslute emergency.
Actually, it's not always a succubus. If memory serves, the sanctified creature template from the Book of Exalted Deeds used a red dragon as its sample.
Not just any dragon. A Red Dragon which would make for some interesting stories at the game table. Imagine the skill check bonus on intimidate. " I don't cook my meals anymore with my dragon breath. I skin them alive and I will even do for free".
Thanks Charles for the link.
The Maelstrom definitely need more entities, you know, like giant disembodied heads with myriad eyes, slithering abominations, and cocooned embryos that wander the maelstrom looking for a place to plant themselves and grow.
Time, I'd love to see something akin to time-zombies, Frank Belknap long had several stories regarding time, and Clark Ashton Smith had the Timeless Ones
Dreams are a bit tricky, I would have to do some digging in my mythology books to get that one started
as per fey, has anyone considered Poltersprites? Aos Sidhe? Duende? Mogwai? Yaksha? I'd particularly love to see Auberon/Oberon and his wife Titania.
positive energy plane is dangerous, I would prefer that one to be left kind of sparse.
Pathfinder fey are very intentionally not Sidhe or Seelie/Unseelie.
Actually, it's not always a succubus. If memory serves, the sanctified creature template from the Book of Exalted Deeds used a red dragon as its sample.
Red Dragons are ugly the way a red Camaro with spiked hubcaps is ugly. Which is to say, not at all.
Seelie and unseelie templates for fey would be cool.
