Where is the Techno?

There doesn't really seem much techno- for you to do any mancy with outside of the overlock ability which seems more like enchanting then doing anything tech-y. The class names a lot of things with tech related words, but the fantasy seems abit lacking.

It's a spellhacker, but it doesn't seem to do technomancy.

THANK YOU! I thought I was losing my mind reading through the class and it's focus spells. If you strip away the flavor text, it doesn't do much techno- at all.

I'm not calling for a class renaming, and those threads tend to rub me the wrong way, but if this had been introduced as the "Spellhacker" instead, I wouldn't have blinked an eye.

Technomancer was always a bit lacking in "technomancy", though, so I'm not hugely concerned. Things like Ammo Infector Virus, Delete Root Access, and White Hack Hack are the same level of "techno" that the old one had. There's just a lot more metamagic.

Yeah I definitely don't intend this as a "the class should be renamed" thread, but more a "I feel like the class could do more to sell the fantasy that is pitched".

Technomancer was always a bit lacking in "technomancy", though, so I'm not hugely concerned

A lot of the technomancy that came from the technomancer spell list being tech themed spells doing a lot of the lifting. But Starfinder is not doing that, instead every tradition gets tech-spells because they're tradition based now. So the class cannot lean on the spell list anymore.

Yeah I definitely don't intend this as a "the class should be renamed" thread, but more a "I feel like the class could do more to sell the fantasy that is pitched".

Quote:

Technomancer was always a bit lacking in "technomancy", though, so I'm not hugely concerned

A lot of the technomancy that came from the technomancer spell list being tech themed spells doing a lot of the lifting. But Starfinder is not doing that, instead every tradition gets tech-spells because they're tradition based now.

Yeah... I'm not going to mind some more of the techno stuff. Something at-will or passive that's useful out of combat would go a long way.

I thought about it for a while, and I think that what I wanted where the technomancer was conjuring artillery and magically constructing machines, walls, turrets, and guns, steps on the toes of the mechanic and that's why they have a split between hardware(mechanic) and software(technomancer). Hacking is definitionally tech, and they are absolutely treating magic like technology and like a code. So I see no issue outside the fact I was hoping for something hardware/mechanical focused, but I understand why I didn't get that

They don't do much software-y stuff though? If you had a metamagic focused wizard who also sometimes enchants his robes to defend him, most would not call that a tech class.

They don't do much software-y stuff though? If you had a metamagic focused wizard who also sometimes enchants his robes to defend him, most would not call that a tech class.

The metamagic is the tech. You're treating spells like software, like a program. The overclock thing is kind of tertiary imo. I think it just exists to jailbreak, but the fact the class has such a modular design to the gameplay is very tech-y. I know you and others said it's "just flavor" but so is enchanting robes as you mentioned. If I had to make a stab here it's that you, like myself, wanted more hardware focused stuff

I think the magic hacks are a problem in the way they deny the technomancer the primary benefit of what focus spells are are supposed to be: a replenishable source of combat ammunition that is stronger than a cantrip but weaker than a slot and doesn't require spending a slot. Almost all of them (weakly) enhance a slotted spell or provide a utility benefit, which you may not have (at 3 slots/level) or want to spend.

Admittedly 1 action to teleport or an energy shield are good focus spells comparable to options that psychics and other casters have had before. But they didn't make you cast a slotted spell first, and there's zero offensive options. (The "change energy type" one doesn't really count.)

The first Viper one is kind of sneaky good as a way to double the use of spell gems via replenishable focus spells, letting you "buy" extra slotted spells at half price, but it's still not sustainable.

I feel like everyone is starting to miss the point Milo is making

The Technomancer needs abilities that are like "you gain enhanced shortwave", and a later feat that says "you can give a computer consciousness to ask it where the evil hacker went". The ability to snap your fingers and turn a computer on or off from 60 feet away. Creating virtual holograms and whatnot

The actual answer is "they tend to just only test the combat stuff in a playtest like this", but both of the classes definitely feel really lacking in actual useful utility and exploration actions that involve tech.

Don Draper yelling "That's what the money is for!" voice: That's what the prepared arcane spells are for!

Actually, I agree with Xenocrat. Those things sound like stuff Starfinder spells would do.

But I also don't see how you contribute much to combat if you only have three slots per level and none of the focus spells are direct offense or relieve the pressure on your slots since they're spellshapes.

I guess DPS++ can throw off a big AOE to start, then shoot at guys with useless cover with a small damage bonus.

anyone can fire at them doing the same kind of damage a cantrip would do. saving their slot spells for big bursty moments.

To be clear, I don't see why if those other two are 4/ranks, this wouldn't be since it is doubling down on it's casting, unlike those two who have power outside of their casting.

I think the magic hacks are a problem in the way they deny the technomancer the primary benefit of what focus spells are are supposed to be: a replenishable source of combat ammunition that is stronger than a cantrip but weaker than a slot and doesn't require spending a slot. Almost all of them (weakly) enhance a slotted spell or provide a utility benefit, which you may not have (at 3 slots/level) or want to spend.

Admittedly 1 action to teleport or an energy shield are good focus spells comparable to options that psychics and other casters have had before. But they didn't make you cast a slotted spell first, and there's zero offensive options. (The "change energy type" one doesn't really count.)

The first Viper one is kind of sneaky good as a way to double the use of spell gems via replenishable focus spells, letting you "buy" extra slotted spells at half price, but it's still not sustainable.

If you could apply some of them, or some of the benefits to cantrips, that might solve the issue. Right now the limiter is the overclock which requires a slotted spell, but jailbreaks themselves and the spellshapes can be applied to cantrips. At levels 1 and 2 it's simply an unreasonable ask that the technomancer cast a slotted spell every combat, at levels 3 and 4 it is a big ask but doable, and finally at 5 we can start to cast at least one spell a combat in a given day, and as you go up you'll eventually just be able to chain them as you want. Hypothetically. So whatever solution is necessary needs to be for levels 1 and 2 imo, and that can just be allowing you to overclock with cantrips, but maybe have a bonus if the spell is slotted

I don't want to much homogeneity where every caster has focus spells that do what you said as you said and I appreciate that these are more like what the psychic does with amps, but more versatile

anyone can fire at them doing the same kind of damage a cantrip would do. saving their slot spells for big bursty moments.

To be clear, I don't see why if those other two are 4/ranks, this wouldn't be since it is doubling down on it's casting, unlike those two who have power outside of their casting.

Yeah it's a bit of a puzzling situation. Witchwarper felt like it was being held back from its potential by being a 4-slot, Mystic just felt like it was already strong enough that it didn't need them. Technomancer's "cool thing" is making its slot spells extra good, if anything it should be the only 4-slotter out of the three.

I have to agree and it's so weird, like they are worried about something but like 4 slots would make this class rock and WW and Mystic an get lowered to 3 slots because they are just really good especially the 8 hit points a level vs the 6 Technomancer has.

The metamagic is the tech. You're treating spells like software, like a program. The overclock thing is kind of tertiary imo. I think it just exists to jailbreak, but the fact the class has such a modular design to the gameplay is very tech-y. I know you and others said it's "just flavor" but so is enchanting robes as you mentioned. If I had to make a stab here it's that you, like myself, wanted more hardware focused stuff

So if the class was exactly the same, but used gardening words as the names for the metamagic then it'd fulfil the fantasy of being a botany-mancer fine despite having no real connection to botany or plants? At this point, mystical witchwarper would be an equally valid technomancer if you just said "oh they do their magic by hacking their magic".

Mystics have mechanics that represent them being connected to things beyond just how they flavour their casting. Witchwarpers are able to warp reality beyond just how they flavour their casting. Why can't technomancers have something to do with tech aside with their actual class features.

Don Draper yelling "That's what the money is for!" voice: That's what the prepared arcane spells are for!

So witches & wizards fit the bill just as much and would be valid technomancers for you without modification?

If witchwarper was prepared, would it be a technomancer?

The thing I find interesting about the 2e technomancer mechanically, is it just feels like what rune magic wants to be, minus the downside of runes of rule making you tempted toward various sins. Both rune magic and the technomancer's kit seem to be "speaking the Assembly code of magic," where rune magic feels like the more incomplete version. (Though if anything, a Runelord class archetype on a 2E technomancer feels HIGHLY thematic)

Spellhacker I do agree feels more apt of a name. Honestly, giving the way it works, I would not be opposed to it being made into a basic spell manipulation class, keep the spell database, but allow spellhacker to instead take a spellbook in a pathfinder game, or simply for flavor in in a starfinder game, and then establish that the spell database is a modern spellbook, and that magi and wizards have access to swapping to one in Starfinder.

AestheticDialectic wrote:

The metamagic is the tech. You're treating spells like software, like a program. The overclock thing is kind of tertiary imo. I think it just exists to jailbreak, but the fact the class has such a modular design to the gameplay is very tech-y. I know you and others said it's "just flavor" but so is enchanting robes as you mentioned. If I had to make a stab here it's that you, like myself, wanted more hardware focused stuff

So if the class was exactly the same, but used gardening words as the names for the metamagic then it'd fulfil the fantasy of being a botany-mancer fine despite having no real connection to botany or plants? At this point, mystical witchwarper would be an equally valid technomancer if you just said "oh they do their magic by hacking their magic".

Mystics have mechanics that represent them being connected to things beyond just how they flavour their casting. Witchwarpers are able to warp reality beyond just how they flavour their casting. Why can't technomancers have something to do with tech aside with their actual class features.

Xenocrat wrote:

Don Draper yelling "That's what the money is for!" voice: That's what the prepared arcane spells are for!

So witches & wizards fit the bill just as much and would be valid technomancers for you without modification?

If witchwarper was prepared, would it be a technomancer?

Well, only if we try to make spellshapes and jailbreaks into some grafting metaphor could we maybe get there, but you're saying something true of game design on the whole for these things. You can hypothetically reflavor anything as damn near anything. Spellshapes and jailbreaks specifically feel tech-y and like hacking because you're changing the function of spells on the fly and making them more modular. Which is a better mechanic to flavor as tech-y than the Witchwatper's or Mystic's, but I do think you could brute force those two into having technomancer flavor as you could with nearly anything, but it wouldn't feel as tech-y as what the technomancer has now

I suppose all I can say is that if my player wanted to play a technomancer and came to me for direction, I probably wouldn't specifically direct them to the technomancer because it's not any better at providing that flavour then any other casting class in PF2e/SF2e.

To me, having metamagic != feeling techy. So I would like to see more support for playing a techno-mancer. Maybe take inspiration from the introduction section of the class and let them talk with computer spirits and stuff.

I suppose all I can say is that if my player wanted to play a technomancer and came to me for direction, I probably wouldn't specifically direct them to the technomancer because it's not any better at providing that flavour then any other casting class in PF2e/SF2e.

To me, having metamagic != feeling techy. So I would like to see more support for playing a techno-mancer. Maybe take inspiration from the introduction section of the class and let them talk with computer spirits and stuff.

Isn't talking with computer spirits more, idk psychic/medium, occult feeling thematically? What exactly do you want the class to do? Why do you feel like changing the parameters and effects of spells isn't like hacking?

Isn't talking with computer spirits more, idk psychic/medium, occult feeling thematically?

It's literally what the playtest says technomancers do.

DURING SOCIAL ENCOUNTERS...

You might enthusiastically babble about your topics of interest, speak only in cryptic
messages in your programming language, or simply ignore conversation in favor of
communing with computers or machine spirits in the area.

What exactly do you want the class to do?

Have stuff relating to technology. Actual technology.

Why do you feel like changing the parameters and effects of spells isn't like hacking?

1. For the same reason I don't consider a wizard of Experimental Spellshaping thesis to be a technomancer hacker.

Have stuff relating to technology. Actual technology.

What I'm trying to get at is what you want here. What tech things do you want them to do in specific. Stuff not already covered by computers and crafting skills.

You said spellshapes don't feel like hacking because other classes can do it, and wizards get the thesis, but crucially the thesis doesn't have anything like jailbreaks which enhance and expand spellshapes. Frankly the thesis barely does anything. I'm not sure what we expect a fullcaster who is technology themed to do besides cast technologically themed spells and modify them like code. This is why I am asking specifically what you want in concrete terms. I don't want to misinterpret what your desires actually are. I am getting the sense that retheming the mechanic to be using magic with their tech is more what you want, but I am not certain and that's why I am asking

Also... I know the blurb off-handedly mentions "machine spirits" but that feels occult and not technomancer-y to me at all, frankly. Too 40k coded for my tastes. But that is neither here nor there.

Again, modifying spells is not tech-y to me anymore then it'd be gardening-y to me if they decided to flavour the class around plant-named things if it was a PF class and called Botanomancer.

As for specific examples for things that can enrich the fantasy, provide more options for overclocking style stuff than just the one you get from your subclass, have many more feats that tie into technology such as Ammo Infector and Root Virus rather than them being rare. Have spellshapes that leverage and engage with technology better then "I can spend an action to make an area spells use the worse radius of a grenade".

Especially at level 1 & 2 it'd be good to have some, as earliest you can get a tech tied feat is 4th level from what I can see, and that's a good amount of sessions not getting to actually fulfil the fantasy advertised anymore then playing a wizard/sorcerer/witchwarper/etc would.

Milo V3, Is a wizard a pyromancer? Or a sorcerer? Only if you build them and their spells specifically for that. So yes, a Witch or a wizard using arcane spells and SF2e spells could be a "technomancer" but they wouldn't have the specialization that the official Technomancer has. The ability to, by understanding magic from a programmer's prespective, edit the code of their spells and modify them well beyond what any other magical practitioner can do.

It's likely that when released the Arcane spell list will have more technology related spells than the other spell lists.

Again, modifying spells is not tech-y to me anymore then it'd be gardening-y to me if they decided to flavour the class around plant-named things if it was a PF class and called Botanomancer.

As for specific examples for things that can enrich the fantasy, provide more options for overclocking style stuff than just the one you get from your subclass, have many more feats that tie into technology such as Ammo Infector and Root Virus rather than them being rare. Have spellshapes that leverage and engage with technology better then "I can spend an action to make an area spells use the worse radius of a grenade".

Especially at level 1 & 2 it'd be good to have some, as earliest you can get a tech tied feat is 4th level from what I can see, and that's a good amount of sessions not getting to actually fulfil the fantasy advertised anymore then playing a wizard/sorcerer/witchwarper/etc would.

Doesn't overclock have the same issue as spellshapes? I could flavor it as a plant thing too, same with ammo infector and root virus. Root is even in the name. Is it just that the spellshapes don't explicitly reference technology?

Milo V3, Is a wizard a pyromancer? Or a sorcerer? Only if you build them and their spells specifically for that. So yes, a Witch or a wizard using arcane spells and SF2e spells could be a "technomancer" but they wouldn't have the specialization that the official Technomancer has. The ability to, by understanding magic from a programmer's prespective, edit the code of their spells and modify them well beyond what any other magical practitioner can do.

It's likely that when released the Arcane spell list will have more technology related spells than the other spell lists.

You shouldn't need to "build your technomancer specifically for tech" to have some tech, anymore then only some barbarians getting to have rage or only some inventors getting to invent.

"they wouldn't have the specialization that the official Technomancer has." Except I am saying that currently, I do not feel that technomancer is providing any specialization over that of wizard/witchwarper/etc. That is literally the concept of the thread. That I would like it to have more stuff to actually make it a specialist of technomancy.

That if we got a pyromancer class, that it'd be good at pyromancy beyond just using the arcane spell list and seeing their spells through the lens of a flame that they use different fuels for to alter how it burns.

Doesn't overclock have the same issue as spellshapes?

Not if they increase the amount of times your character is engaging with pieces of technology.

Something that alters technology, is innately more technological then "I extend the range of my spell".

same with ammo infector and root virus.

Those two aability does the type of stuff I want because it has you actually hack technology. Not just flavour, it does the thing in a way that alters how the gameplay. If someone reflavoured it to be plant based for some reason, that wouldn't change that it is directly engaging with technological things. They'd still be hacking robots mid-fight and taking them over, which is technological stuff.

]Is it just that the spellshapes don't explicitly reference technology?

I want mechanically represented stuff. There is nothing that makes "My spells range longer" feel technological to me. While something that causes enemy armour to explode or for you to be able to commune with an enemies weapon to try and get them to leap out of their hands to disarm them or something, that'd be something you can point at and see directly that it is doing something technological in the world.

So you want a technology kineticist. No spells, just different feat/impulses they can take to influence technology.

They are a spell caster. The way they cast their spells is filtered through their understand of the world as a computer programmer and hacker. I get that you're saying "no, technomancer just means technology, they should have any other abilities that aren't related to technology that way if we are in low tech environment like a jungle or deserted asteroid they are useless."

They use the arcane spell list which is going to have tons of spells that allow them to warp and work with technology, yes, other casters have access to some or all of these spells because this is the far future, but none of them understand magic the way the technomancer does, as a programmer and hacker.

So you want a technology kineticist. No spells, just different feat/impulses they can take to influence technology.

I am fine with them being a spellcaster, I'm even fine with them being metamagic focused. I just want them to have more stuff that ties into technology so my players aren't disappointed and just go to a different class that is just as good at technomancy.

I do think a technology kineticist would be cool, but I don't think it'd be a very good use of space to recreate kineticist in Starfinder, especially one limited to a single element.

I get that you're saying "no, technomancer just means technology, they should have any other abilities that aren't related to technology that way if we are in low tech environment like a jungle or deserted asteroid they are useless."

I am fine with them having some other things, but I want Some technology stuff. All I want is for the class to have more that ties into technology. I am not demanding the class be useless outside of highly urbanized environemnts. I just want the class to be better at fulfilling the technomancer fantasy then wizard/witchwarper or an occult mystic (who can actually talk to computers).

It seems you peeps are thinking I'm asking for something far far far more severe then I am. I just want more parts of the class to tie into the pitch, so that it's better at it's fantasy then other casters. It's a more specialized class fantasy then "generic wizard", so let it have more tools for actually facilitating that fantasy, rather than just having powers with programming themed names.

This is not a thread of "The whole class must be rewritten from the ground up". That isn't happening, this is a playtest, the class has already reached a point of pretty heavy development. All I'm saying is that the class, does not fulfil the fantasy for me because it doesn't have much techno, it's mainly just mancy, so I'd like some more support for techno in the final class.

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Doesn't overclock have the same issue as spellshapes?

Not if they increase the amount of times your character is engaging with pieces of technology.

Something that alters technology, is innately more technological then "I extend the range of my spell".

Quote:

same with ammo infector and root virus.

Those two aability does the type of stuff I want because it has you actually hack technology. Not just flavour, it does the thing in a way that alters how the gameplay. If someone reflavoured it to be plant based for some reason, that wouldn't change that it is directly engaging with technological things. They'd still be hacking robots mid-fight and taking them over, which is technological stuff.

Quote:

]Is it just that the spellshapes don't explicitly reference technology?

I want mechanically represented stuff. There is nothing that makes "My spells range longer" feel technological to me. While something that causes enemy armour to explode or for you to be able to commune with an enemies weapon to try and get them to leap out of their hands to disarm them or something, that'd be something you can point at and see directly that it is doing something technological in the world.

You said yourself that overclocking could just be enchanting, and I am saying you could just have a plant that sends out electrical spores that does the effects as Root Virus. To some extent I think you just want the mechanic to be called a technomancer. The mechanic is really really cool, and does a lot of what you're asking for. To some extent we can call them a "technology kineticist"

I've just read over it quickly so far, and my opinion may shift, but I'm in full agreement with the OP as it stands.

Technomancer right now looks like a Spellhacker, and very much NOT the "druid/animist of technology" that I would like to see. Everything is hyper focused on modifying spells, which is only a portion of the fantasy of a Technomancer.

There should be things like Voice of Nature (Animal Empathy but for computers/AI/programs/robots/drones) and Wildsong (Secret machine language known only by technomancers and some tech entities), or things in that vein.

Focus spells being only for modifying actual spells is also a missed opportunity. Focus spells were added to the game specifically to let players engage in a specific class fantasy more frequently and reliably. Using them for metamagic is one flavor (though that fantasy would 1000% be shared by something like an Arcanist from 1e or an Experimental Spellshaping Wizard, there's a lot of toe stepping going on if we're all-in on metamagic as Technomancers' *thing*), but the other flavor is "doing things with tech objects and programs in-world in a way that other characters can't".

Imagine a focus spell that let you augment all AI processes in the vicinity, or one that lets you physically enter a computer/tablet/comm unit, or one that lets you be treated as a Construct, or create semi-real objects from a video game, or or or

There should also be more feats for utility and interacting with the world outside of spells.

I am saying you could just have a plant that sends out electrical spores that does the effects as Root Virus.

That would still be tech stuff. Doesn't matter how you flavour the "how" of that feat, you're using the combat hacking feat.

To some extent I think you just want the mechanic to be called a technomancer. The mechanic is really really cool, and does a lot of what you're asking for. To some extent we can call them a "technology kineticist"

Nope. I just want more tech in the technomancer class from the book called tech core. Wanting more support for tech tied stuff doesn't mean wanting the class to be completely replaced.

Me discussing how the metamagic isn't sufficient to make the class fulfil the fantasy for me, does not mean I want the whole class to be remade from the ground up. It just was me explaining why I don't find the metamagic sufficient for fulfilling the fantasy.

There is no benefit to you two making strawmen claiming I'm wanting the class to be kineticist or mechanic.

So you want to add class abilities that can be functionally useless depending on the environment?

Because in the jungles of Castrovel, or in the open wastes of Akiton, or barren rocks in the Diaspora, all of those tech specific abilities you're talking about are useless. Do you want the D&D5e ranger? Because this is how you get the D&D5e Ranger.

All my gripping and snapping done. I want to be mature.

I do hear you. The Technomancer, as presented in the playtest, doesn't really feel like what you envisioned a technomancer to be. I can understand that this is annoying. And you've got all of us essentially saying "Be quiet and be grateful" as you feel like you're being ignored. If I have given the impression I am not trying to understand your side, I apologize. We should be respectful and empathetic to each other.

That said, What I feel we are trying to, ultimately, communicate is that the flavor of technomancer you are looking for was probably considered too situational to be built directly into the class, as there would be tons of likely situations that would render those abilities useless.

And it is far more expedient to allow the spell list to provide those sorts of abilities, especially since as a prepared caster with a strong ability to rewrite your prepared spells, you can have the spells you need at the ready for the situation you're facing.

Now, contrary to the position I've been holding, WatersLethe makes a good point, a light ability to just passively talk communicate with machines, like the Druid can do with animals, is probably a good ability to bake into the basic class chassis

So you want to add class abilities that can be functionally useless depending on the environment?

Because in the jungles of Castrovel, or in the open wastes of Akiton, or barren rocks in the Diaspora, all of those tech specific abilities you're talking about are useless. Do you want the D&D5e ranger? Because this is how you get the D&D5e Ranger.

I covered this in my previous posts about Mechanic and Technomancer, but I think there's a fundamental failing if they can't *bring technology with them*. I wanted Mechanic to be able to rapidly create or carry with them technological solutions to physical problems, and for Technomancers to be able to do the same in the realm of software by exuding an aura of augmented reality, acting as a Matrix node they can deploy AIs or programs within.

However, that being said, all of my examples work just fine with carried objects in a wilderness setting.

If we're relegating technology to an optional backdrop, that players can't meaningfully interact with even if they choose to build characters focused on it, we are not being creative enough and in my opinion dropping the ball on the whole Starfiner 2e system.

I do think there's room for a class to synergize with ambient tech without becoming completely powerless in its absence. The Druid is a good example of this, because they have lots of spells that require you to be in or near a certain natural feature to work, and yet can work perfectly fine in an urban setting. The Technomancer I suspect would have an even easier time, because you're always going to be carrying some measure of technology thanks to your weapons and gear. Thus, I'd also be in favor of bringing out the techno aspect of the Technomancer a bit more, especially as I don't think their spellhacking aspect works at its best right now when it's the only thing you can do with your Focus Points on the class at early levels.

The mechanic does focus on tech they carry with them in their modify ability, which I do hope comes with options for utility situations, which would really scratch the itch I agree with you on there.

What you described the technomancer doing is the Witchwarper thing. Setting up a field of altered reality. That is a tech themed Witchwarper subclass.

I think the magic hacks are a problem in the way they deny the technomancer the primary benefit of what focus spells are are supposed to be: a replenishable source of combat ammunition that is stronger than a cantrip but weaker than a slot and doesn't require spending a slot. Almost all of them (weakly) enhance a slotted spell or provide a utility benefit, which you may not have (at 3 slots/level) or want to spend.

Admittedly 1 action to teleport or an energy shield are good focus spells comparable to options that psychics and other casters have had before. But they didn't make you cast a slotted spell first, and there's zero offensive options. (The "change energy type" one doesn't really count.)

The first Viper one is kind of sneaky good as a way to double the use of spell gems via replenishable focus spells, letting you "buy" extra slotted spells at half price, but it's still not sustainable.

This right right here. Bread and butter based on resource when you're not a martial is kind of rough

I've just read over it quickly so far, and my opinion may shift, but I'm in full agreement with the OP as it stands.

Technomancer right now looks like a Spellhacker, and very much NOT the "druid/animist of technology" that I would like to see. Everything is hyper focused on modifying spells, which is only a portion of the fantasy of a Technomancer.

There should be things like Voice of Nature (Animal Empathy but for computers/AI/programs/robots/drones) and Wildsong (Secret machine language known only by technomancers and some tech entities), or things in that vein.

Focus spells being only for modifying actual spells is also a missed opportunity. Focus spells were added to the game specifically to let players engage in a specific class fantasy more frequently and reliably. Using them for metamagic is one flavor (though that fantasy would 1000% be shared by something like an Arcanist from 1e or an Experimental Spellshaping Wizard, there's a lot of toe stepping going on if we're all-in on metamagic as Technomancers' *thing*), but the other flavor is "doing things with tech objects and programs in-world in a way that other characters can't".

Imagine a focus spell that let you augment all AI processes in the vicinity, or one that lets you physically enter a computer/tablet/comm unit, or one that lets you be treated as a Construct, or create semi-real objects from a video game, or or or

There should also be more feats for utility and interacting with the world outside of spells.

I'll say that I don't like the idea of the technomancer being about communing with technology and computers, the idea of machine spirits, or anything druid-y. I like that this class is a techno wizard and not a techno druid/animist. I like it being an intelligence caster who is exploiting the barriers and synergies between magic and technology, and who is "hacking reality". I think there is a place in the game for this tech priest/techno-animist in the game, but I don't think it is the technomancer. I also think the mechanic getting a class archetype like spellshot but with technomancer dedication instead of wizard to bridge that gap would be cool

On paper I like the direction of this class very much, as I liked necromancer. I frankly just want the kinks ironed out. So I am very into this class as presented with only concerns for levels 1-4 in a game play experience sense, and not a thematic one. Which I think this class is extremely on point with, personally

Xenocrat wrote:

Don Draper yelling "That's what the money is for!" voice: That's what the prepared arcane spells are for!

So witches & wizards fit the bill just as much and would be valid technomancers for you without modification?

If witchwarper was prepared, would it be a technomancer?

No. I actually had a wild prediction that I believed in with moderate confidence that the Technomancer was going to be a charisma caster who talked to machine spirits and could use social skills to open doors and help hack computers (like a late SF1 envoy alternate class feature did). That sure didn't happen.

Milo v3 wrote:

Have stuff relating to technology. Actual technology.

What I'm trying to get at is what you want here. What tech things do you want them to do in specific. Stuff not already covered by computers and crafting skills.

Stuff that SF1 technomancers could do via their magic hacks, which were equivalent to class feats. Convert spell slots into temporarily created tech items and tech weapons/armor. Make tech weapons aimed at your or your allies less accurate. Jolt security systems with spell energy to make them easier to defeat. Add spell energy to a tech weapon shot to make it more accurate and hit harder. Nine different wall hacking/teleport options (these made it in via the generic magic hack options). Make robot summons smarter/more utility capable. Etc.

I like that this class is a techno wizard and not a techno druid/animist. I like it being an intelligence caster who is exploiting the barriers and synergies between magic and technology, and who is "hacking reality".

I'm really struggling to hear how this isn't just the Witchwarper.

AestheticDialectic wrote:

I like that this class is a techno wizard and not a techno druid/animist. I like it being an intelligence caster who is exploiting the barriers and synergies between magic and technology, and who is "hacking reality".

I'm really struggling to hear how this isn't just the Witchwarper.

The witch warper explicitly deals in different dimensions and timelines, and the technomancer doesn't. Seems pretty different to me

The way I understand it/see it, is that the Witchwarper is taking a hammer to the walls of reality to cast their spells, hence causing their signature area of disturbance.

Where as the Technomancer is looking at magic from a programmer's prespective, understanding how spells operate on fundamental levels, and thus able to alter, tweak, and change them. To A Technomancer magic is programming reality is running on, and they known how to adeptly alter the code and hack it.

I've always understood Technomancer to mean someone who combines technology and magic. Not someone who is, essentially, just really really good at magic. Or in other words, the logical conclusion of an Experimental Spellshaping Thesis Wizard after a few more generations of study.

The only real interface with tech is the extremely limited overclock system. It's so narrowly focused it doesn't feel like someone who's good with tech, it feels like someone who has this one party trick they can do in addition to being super awesome at magic.

I think we can get to a better tech+magic feel with more ribbon abilities, as well as some more nods to in-world tech like the drift, virtual realities, AI, and computing devices.

Things like being able to make magical effects in an anti-magic field by utilizing technologically based stand-ins wouldn't go amiss either.

Where as the Technomancer is looking at magic from a programmer's prespective, understanding how spells operate on fundamental levels, and thus able to alter, tweak, and change them. To A Technomancer magic is programming reality is running on, and they known how to adeptly alter the code and hack it.

I'm hearing a lot about magic and nothing about tech other than a mindset, which feels a little strange as a class in "the tech book."

So to both of these responses I can only see two solutions, which both feel unsatisfying.

1: all the new spells that have been released that interface with technology in the previous playtest, and all the ones going forward are exclusive to the technomancer, which means that despite technology being a very common part of life for hundreds if not thousands of years, only one kind of magical practitioner can interact with it at all.

2: The technomancer has all these cool ribbon abilities that are not spell based that either make it totally OP, or if balanced with the rest of it's kit, shut off a good bit of the technomancer's power if the setting is low or no tech, like the jungles of castrovel, or the plains of Akiton.

They do combine technology with magic, as they keep their prepared spells in a database with a special cache of spells they can download into their prepared list. They can channel spare magical energy to enhance their gear (oh look, magic interacting with technology you wear into those environments I talked about) and because of their technology centered mind set they alter spells in ways that even wizards, the supposed pinnacle of magic, can't do.

Where as the Technomancer is looking at magic from a programmer's prespective, understanding how spells operate on fundamental levels, and thus able to alter, tweak, and change them. To A Technomancer magic is programming reality is running on, and they known how to adeptly alter the code and hack it.

I think this is the fundamental perspective difference that people are having here. The 1e Technomancer was a class that did magic to technology. The 2e Technomancer does magic through the lense of programming. "Hack Reality" is explicitly a new tagline for what is functionally a brand new class concept usurping the name of an entirely different class.

That the name "Technomancer" is being used implies we aren't going to get another class that fulfills the same mechanical game space that the 1e Technomancer did, and a lot of what we're asking for is for this one to cover that niche, of magic done *to* technology. Overclocking doesn't really count, and saying "the spells will do it" is inane and condescending - what you're saying is "sit down and wait for this thing that we presume exists, I'm sure it will be fine". Yeah there will be spells, but we don't know what they all are or that they will do this thing that we are asking for.