Delay Poison?

I thought it looked simple enough. Postpones poison for a set time period, then apply effects later.

In game, it became very fuzzy.

Spider shows up and bites a character. They get poisoned. Spider disappears. Druid casts a communal delay poison. Spider shows up again and bites a different character.

Pretty clear how this affects the already poisoned character. Some debate on how this applies to a non-poisoned character. Might just be using the poison rules wrong.

DM says newly poisoned character rolls fort save to see if they contract the poison. Seems iffy, as character is presently immune to poison as per the delay poison spell. Character passed the fort save and the spider died shortly after, so it didn't come up.

If character failed the fort save, what happens? Was taking the fort save to see if the PC contracts it the correct thing to do? How does delay poison interact with poison increased DCs for multiple doses?

You have to make a save. Just went and read the spell.

Delay Poison does not make you immune to poison. It only delays its effects until after the spell wears off.

If the character fails its Fort Save, the poison remains inert in its body until the spell wears off, then it causes the round-1 damage and starts counting its duration.

You say that, but in the description, the first line is, "The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison."

The second line is, "Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell's duration does not affect the subject until the spell's duration has expired."

So, why take a fort save? You're immune to poison, and it can't affect you until the spell wears off.

Because of the second line.

Yes it is poorly worded.

Just seems like you'd take that fort save after the spell wears off.

Anyway, second part, how does delay poison interact with increased poison DCs for multiple doses?

As I read it, if you've been poisoned and the poison is still "active" in a target, each additional poison dose results in a new Fort save, followed by increased DC and duration.

Seems like this could two ways:

First, you could say the poison isn't active when under the effects of delay, so anything beyond the first dose doesn't affect the DC or duration.

Second, you could really start stacking the poison, to the point where it's highly unlikely the target will survive or the poison can even be removed with magic.

In our case, our Druid cast neutralize poison on the one poisoned member. Poison was DC18. Two doses would have been DC20 and so forth. Neutralize Poison requires DC to remove poisons.

I guess the question, is it practical to delay poison if it's fairly clear multiple doses will be affect the subject in the duration?

Most poisons don't last more than an hour, most last 6 rounds, so delay poison in a situation where exposure to the same poison was happening during that duration could very much result in a poison that couldn't be cured.

Also, related, can a person affected by delay poison have the poisons removed during the duration? I mean, they are technically not poisoned at the moment, right?

Just seems like you'd take that fort save after the spell wears off.

In most cases it doesn't matter when you roll the save. It's probably easier to roll it immediately because if you pass, it saves you having to record that you were poisoned for later.

Second, you could really start stacking the poison, to the point where it's highly unlikely the target will survive or the poison can even be removed with magic.

Most Pathfinder poisons are non-lethal. Unless it's Con damage, you only pass out. So it's a question of whether you want to fall unconscious during the battle, or a few hours later.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Just seems like you'd take that fort save after the spell wears off.

In most cases it doesn't matter when you roll the save. It's probably easier to roll it immediately because if you pass, it saves you having to record that you were poisoned for later.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Second, you could really start stacking the poison, to the point where it's highly unlikely the target will survive or the poison can even be removed with magic.

Most Pathfinder poisons are non-lethal. Unless it's Con damage, you only pass out. So it's a question of whether you want to fall unconscious during the battle, or a few hours later.

If it doesn't matter, then why did you say we do it a certain way? Seems like it does matter, as you could be able to increase the target's fortitude, or, perhaps, they may be subject to spells like bestow curse which can lower fortitude while they are subject to delay poison.

Maybe I misunderstand, by non-lethal, you mean unconscious for a day, and after that, at 1 ability score in that attribute, with only 1 healing per day. That, to me, could be a death sentence, even if not strictly lethal on it's own. And this assumes they don't go negative...

The biggest danger is if the ability score in question is also the one the PC uses to cast spells. The Giant Toad (1d2 wis damage), in example, while not very dangerous on it's own, against a cleric or oracle with delay poison, it could actually do more damage than normal and more effectively, as the poison starts stacking on itself.

Okay, so a few more questions:

Can delay poison be dispelled? If so, what happens?

Can Neutralize poison affect those under the effects of delay poison, as they presently are not poisoned? Or does the caster need to wait for delay poison to end, then quickly cast the neutralization once the patient is under the effects of the poison?

Can delay poison be used offensively?

My read is this -
Dispel Magic can work on Delay Poison.
Make the saves after the spell duration expires.
It is a real problem when a Delay Poison is cast and the
recipient gets poisoned several times more while Delay
Poison is still running.
When Delay Poison expires there are a bunch of saves to make.
Theoretically, the saves can be made simultaneously, which
is a real killer for the character.
Hopefully by then some remedy can be found, such as Neutralize
Poison, Antitoxin, saving throw bonuses, etc.
As far as using it offensively, maybe casting it on a viper
might disable it's ability to poison someone. Maybe you have
a different strategy in mind.

Nah, delay poison wouldn't be able to be cast on a viper to negate their poison ability. It should just negate their ability to be poisoned, at least, for the duration.

I do think that if delay poison makes the target immune to poison and the effects (fort saves for onset, followed by effects) don't apply until after the duration, then the opponent is very unlikely to realize that they've been poisoned until after the delay works. If they use spell craft to check the spell, they might opt to not even save against it, or they might just be caught off-guard at the odd "attack" spell choice.

A dual wielding character would be able to have a spell storing weapon with delay poison and a dispelling weapon. You'd also want a blowgun with multiple poisoned blowgun darts. Combat would function in three stages, attack in melee with delay poison, then withdraw. While withdrawn, attack while hidden with the blowgun, adding "unpoisoned" darts which barely add to damage (sneak attack, perhaps). Then attack again, with dispelling melee. And then retreat - maybe four steps - anyway, the result should be a super high DC poison that lasts forever.

As the assailant, you can use Con poison for the kill, or use non-Con poison if you just want to take them alive.

A bit of effort, I suppose, but it would allow a single character to take down a pretty impressive character, provided they had the right equipment/build. In terms of requirements, a high dex character with high use magic device and high craft alchemy should do it. A high dex caster wouldn't need the use magic device skill. The weapons in question require two 2+ equivalent melee weapons and a stealthy ranged weapon which can be poisoned.

I suppose, if running a druid with a animal companion which has a poisoning attack, you could just cast delay poison with a touch attack, withdraw while your pet poisons them, then attack again with a dispel magic usage.

If you have delay poison active you do not make any rolls until it expires. So yes, you have to track every time you might potentially have been poisoned or had to make a save.

If your DM wants to roll the save when it happens so he doesn't have to worry about it if it wouldn't matter he can, but that's not the proper thing to do because maybe you'll have a higher Fort save at the end of the spell's duration.

Most people who know they may have been poisoned will take steps to increase their saves. They'll drink an antitoxin for instance when they know the spell's duration is almost up to gain its benefit against all the poison checks. They will have someone begin administering Heal checks. Maybe they'll just cast neutralize poison and wipe all the poisons before the spell wears off.
(Why not have just used neutralize poison to begin with? Because its duration of protection is inferior by a lot if you plan to encounter poison over a long duration, like a whole day of adventuring where you can just purge your whole system at the end rather than burning higher level spells many times after each encounter.)

Why not have just used neutralize poison to begin with? Because its duration of protection is inferior by a lot if you plan to encounter poison over a long duration, like a whole day of adventuring where you can just purge your whole system at the end rather than burning higher level spells many times after each encounter.

Our party has 2 clerics and 1 druid in our party of 6. Of those, one cleric (our healer, no less) has a level of barbarian and didn't prepare any anti-poison spells. The other cleric is a mystic theuge (spelling?), so their prepped spells are all combat or damage-healing based. The druid prepped communal delay poison and a single neutralize poison. Our party spent the entire day investigating ruins that happen to contain both poisonous traps and nasty spiders.

In regards to why not use neutralize poison from the start, it only lasts 10 minutes per level of the caster, so it won't last for the whole day, and only works on a single target. Communal Delay poison, on the other hand, is hours per level, but even that is divided up by each party member. Basically, we didn't go in with enough poison immunity for the entire day. Communal Delay poison proved a perfect "solution" to surprise combat from a the big "surprise" spider. That spider was still nasty, but not as nasty as it could have been.

I will also note that stock delay poison is level 2, Communal delay poison is level 3, and neutralize poison is level 4, so there is certainly some merit in trying to save the higher spell slots - especially because druids may need to spontaneously cast summoning spells later in the encounter.

You can always cast delay poison, have everyone pass their fort saves, and not ever need to cast neutralize poison.

Exactly. That's why I added that part.

Since 3.5 I've been trying to come up with a way to use delay poison in some sneaky way. For example, an assassin getting a group to drink some in their cups (or even having it openly labeled,) then subjecting them to poison over and over secretly. Maybe filling the room with gas but since they're protected they don't even get suspicious. Then it wears off; half-dozen saving throws all at once.

Also, in my example earlier, the DC would be 28 for the Purple Worm Poison after failing a 3rd save. Not that it's important to anyone else, but my OCD was driving me nuts about not being able to edit it after a certain amount of time.

You can always cast delay poison, have everyone pass their fort saves, and not ever need to cast neutralize poison.

You can't know whether they are going to pass their saving throws or not (at least not the initial ones) until the spell ends. Not sure if that's what you meant.

I would probably also rule that knowing you are poisoned would be out of character knowledge until the onset wore off and you took detrimental effects. Your character could 'suspect' he was poisoned (because he was bite by a spider), but him knowing just because you the player know a saving throw was made likely isn't right.

Also worth noting, I only mention onset time in a normal case of poisoning, with delay poison I don't believe onset applies unless the spell would have worn off before the onset begins.

You can't know whether they are going to pass their saving throws or not (at least not the initial ones) until the spell ends. Not sure if that's what you meant.

I would probably also rule that knowing you are poisoned would be out of character knowledge until the onset wore off and you took detrimental effects. Your character could 'suspect' he was poisoned (because he was bite by a spider), but him knowing just because you the player know a saving throw was made likely isn't right.

Also worth noting, I only mention onset time in a normal case of poisoning, with delay poison I don't believe onset applies unless the spell would have worn off before the onset begins.

Yeah, I meant you don't know if they'll save the fort or not, so using a lower level spell that makes the PCs wait until we're out of harms way before taking their fort saves is often a good call, as they may just pass them anyway and you can save the more impressive poison removal spells.

I agree with not knowing. Suspecting poison is likely with creatures known to be poisonous, but this remain true if suspected creatures are not poisonous and just look like poisonous creatures.

Onset doesn't apply for injury poisons, it's just a fort save. For the others, onset time would apply after the delay poison took wore off.

As for sneaky uses of delay poison (and other spells), I think the key would be one of those class archetypes that focuses on making their spells hard to identify via spellcraft checks. I think the sorcerer rashaka bloodline has this, amongst others. It's also a low level spell, so would be pretty easy to counter as you get higher in levels.

You'd need to be able to cast delay poison in a manner that they didn't suspect the spell, so they didn't suspect the subsequent poison.

Onset: Some afflictions have a variable amount of time before they set in. Creatures that come in contact with an affliction with an onset time must make a saving throw immediately. Success means that the affliction is avoided and no further saving throws must be made. Failure means that the creature has contracted the affliction and must begin making additional saves after the onset period has elapsed. The affliction's effect does not occur until after the onset period has elapsed and then only if further saving throws are failed.

If the poison has an onset time, you make a roll immediately to determine if the poison takes effect at all. If that roll fails, you then roll after the onset according to frequency. I would say even if you are under the effects of delay poison, you roll immediately when exposed per the onset rules.

All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted. If successful, the creature does not suffer from the affliction and does not need to make any further rolls. If the saving throw is a failure, the creature falls victim to the affliction and must deal with its effects.

As to multiple doses when delay poison is in effect. I would grant the initial saving throw for each dose. Say the PC gets delay poison cast, and is then attacked by spiders with medium spider venom attacks. He is bitten 5 times before he kills the spiders. He then heads back to town, and his delay poison wears off. He would then save for each poisoning to see if it is contracted. So, DC14 save, if successful, the first poison did not affect the PC. 2nd dose, DC14, fail, now PC is affected by the poison. 3rd dose, DC 16 (because its a second dose of the same), fail, now poison duration is extended by 50%. 4th dose, DC 16, success, and 5th dose, DC 16 fail, brings it to DC 18 saves for 9 rounds(base 4 + 50%(2) + 50%(3)). If he then cast neutralize poison, the DC would be 18 as thats the total DC for the poisons which took effect.

I will note that if going for improved poisons, you should probably look into methods of delivery and making the existing poisons higher DC, then use delay poison to increase.

The easiest routes are actually the poison spell via increasing the spell's DC, or via a companion animal, familiar, or race with an innate poison ability. Conjuration is also another method.

The Vishkanya, in example, have an innate poison. DC for that one is 10+HD+Con(modifier). This means a First level character can start with a DC 15 poison usable a number of times equal to their con modifier (4, in this case).

For familiars, the viper has a DC9 poison at first level, but it scales with HD, so at 4th, it's DC11 and so forth. Not as amazing on familiars, at they don't get eh ability score increases that companions get, though familiars do gain HD faster than companions (even if HD don't affect their HP...).

For companions, the stock Giant spider has a DC10 poison at first level. Again, this scales with HD and Con score.

For conjuration, the poisonous frog is 1st level summon monster or summmon natures ally and has a DC10 poison, with augment summoning increasing it to DC12. For an interesting note, poisonous frogs aren't a horrible route to stack poison effects against low Fort opponents. As a 3rd level casting, summoning d4+1 poisonous frogs, able to poison a number of times equal to the number of frogs summoned. Given that poison DC stacks the more times the opponent fails the initial attack, 5 frogs (6 with superior summoning) would be annoying to deal with, for sure. Even if they make half their saves, you've poisoned them at least twice in the initial round.

As to multiple doses when delay poison is in effect. I would grant the initial saving throw for each dose. Say the PC gets delay poison cast, and is then attacked by spiders with medium spider venom attacks. He is bitten 5 times before he kills the spiders. He then heads back to town, and his delay poison wears off. He would then save for each poisoning to see if it is contracted. So, DC14 save, if successful, the first poison did not affect the PC. 2nd dose, DC14, fail, now PC is affected by the poison. 3rd dose, DC 16 (because its a second dose of the same), fail, now poison duration is extended by 50%. 4th dose, DC 16, success, and 5th dose, DC 16 fail, brings it to DC 18 saves for 9 rounds(base 4 + 50%(2) + 50%(3)).

I don't think the stacking effect applies to the initial check to see if the poison affects the target. In your example, once the delay poison wore off, the target would make all 5 Fortitude saves at DC 14. The increased DC would apply to the frequency checks made after determining that the target was affected by one or more doses.

So for example, a PC bitten and failing a save vs the spiders 3 times would be making a DC 18 check every round to avoid the damage. If bitten again, he would still only need a DC 14 check for that instance (with failure extending the duration of the posion and also upping the save to avoid damage that round to DC 20. In the case of the spider venom, one successful save will end the poison effect regardless of the doses in effect.

Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.

I was always under the impression it raised the DC for both initial effect and the ongoing save. The bolded potion doesn't say "increased the DC to resist the poison only for ongoing effects by +2". It just says increase the DC +2.

However, if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack.

Poison wrote:

However, if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack.

Ok, so it doesn't add to the initial save, but to future saves.

I.e: First bite, DC 14. He fails.
Second bite, DC 14. He fails again, ongoing effect is now DC 16 and 6 rounds.
Third bite, DC 16 (because of the previous 2). He fails again, ongoing is now DC 18 and 8 rounds.

I think that you will say the DC for the initial save never increases. But it never says that.

Our party has 2 clerics and 1 druid in our party of 6. Of those, one cleric (our healer, no less) has a level of barbarian and didn't prepare any anti-poison spells. The other cleric ...

... Basically, we didn't go in with enough poison immunity for the entire day.

Uhm, did none of these multiple prepared divine spellcasters leave open spell slots? That's precisely what open spell slots are for ...

Yeah, I don't think it applies to the initial save, just the ongoing effects. Still, the ongoing and initial effects of deadly poison are Con based, as are the saves against them (poisons that damage con are the only "deadly" poisons). So multiple poisons function at both increasing DC and decreasing saves against the poison.

Even a low DC poison, you still fail on natural 1s. Delay poison is also a very long duration, being an entire hour at level 1. That's 600 rounds of combat, more than enough for even the weakest assailant to poison the most resilient of poison-able opponents.

I will add that even if the poison is a weak one which only requires a single save to remove, delay poison should have them take all the initial fort saves prior to resolving any of the ongoing effects, so with enough doses of poison, the DC to deny may be far too high to save without a natural 20.

I will also add, I can find nothing in the poison rules to suggest that non-lethal damage doesn't count as damage for injury poisons. Not killing them while dealing lots of poison doses is very much possible. I suppose, a hypodermic needle would likely deal non-lethal damage, so it does make sense.

If you fail a save, ALL saves are at a -2 penalty versus that save. This was clearly noted in the FAQ about poisons:

Scenario A: Valeros is hit by an arrow coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. At the end of his turn, he fails a saving throw against the poison and takes 1 more point of Con damage. Before his second turn, he gets hit again and must attempt a DC 15 Fort save (because 1 dose is already affecting him). He fails this save as well, which deals another point of Con damage, increases the save DC he must make each round to 15, and extends the total duration by 2 rounds.

Scenario B: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil, during the turn of one enemy archer. He fails the first DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He makes this save and suffers no ill effect. On his turn, he must make a DC 13 For save (since only 1 dose of the poison is in effect). He makes this save and takes no damage, as the poison ends. If he is hit again on the next turn, his save would reset to DC 13.

Scenario C: Valeros is hit by a pair of arrows coated in greenblood oil. He fails the DC 13 Fort save and takes 1 point of Con damage. He then must make a DC 15 Fort save for the second arrow. He fails this save and takes 1 point of Con damage. On his turn, he must make another DC 15 Fort save, which he fails, causing him to take yet another point of Con damage. On the next turn, the archer fires an arrow coated in special greenblood oil poison, with a DC of 20. It hits poor Valeros, who fails the save and now must track the two poisons separately (since they are not identical). To add to his misery, another arrow coated in ordinary greenblood oil poison hits him as well, forcing him to make a DC 17 Fortitude save, which he also fails, increasing the total duration to 8 rounds (1 of which has passed). Valeros is in trouble.

The rest of the blog post can be found here.

In summary, even initial saves are affected, as well as the on going effects.

Thanks Frodo. I was pretty sure it affected the initial saves too, but couldn't find definitive support in the rules.

Here's two direct examples from the PRD as far as I can tell:

Example: A fighter is facing three Medium spiders (which inject Medium spider venom on a successful bite). Medium spider venom normally has a frequency of 4 rounds and a DC of 14. On the first round, all three spiders bite him and he fails all three saves. The second and third doses each increase the total duration by 2 rounds (half of the 4 round frequency) and the save DC by +2, for a total duration of 8 rounds (4 + 2 + 2) and DC 18 (14 + 2 + 2). Fortunately, Medium spider venom is cured after just one successful save, even though the fighter is battling three doses at once.

Example: This time, the fighter makes two of his initial saves against the spider venom, so he only has one dose active in his body. He fails his save on his turn. On the spiders' turn, two of them bite him, and he fails both saves, which increases the duration to 8 rounds and the DC to 18, just as if he had failed all three saves in the same round.

At no point in either of those two examples is it ever indicated that the save DC was increased until after a failure was made. Nor was it ever said that after failing the first save that the DC increased for the second. It is very specific that the increases to both duration and DC are only mentioned after failures. There's no indication in any of that, after failing the first save, he then failed the second initial save which he would have passed but for the increase. And that's with 2(!) printed examples, that's more than you get for almost any other listing. Anywhere.

Regarding blog
I have some other things to say, but I need to know what this part is supposed to mean.

6. If a character is exposed to multiple doses of inhaled and ingested poisons simultaneously, only one save is made at the higher DC. If the save fails, the character is subject to all of the doses, but still only takes the effect once for the failed saving throw. If the save succeeds, the character avoids all of the doses.

I need to know what that means. Use Burnt Other Fumes as an example with say, 10 doses (which is only 1 minute of exposure) while under the effects of delay poison. It says you are subject to all the effects, but only the effect once. What does that mean? I couldn't find an answer in that whole blog post. Is it one big save or suffer damage for each dose, or one big save and the same damage taken as for failing one save?

@Pizza Lord
Your correct, the save DC for staggered exposures does not increase until after they fail a save.

It's a little confusing, your right. There's really two sets of rules regarding exposure to poison, simultaneous doses, and staggered doses.

For simultaneous doses of poisons (multiple doses delivered from 1 attack, or from inhaling once, and drinking a goblet that has several doses of poison in it) you make an initial save as if it were 1 poison with a higher DC (Each additional dose of poison increases the DC by 2). Continuing to treat it like one poison, you only take the damage once per failed save, NOT once per poison. Notice that the rogue talent "Deadly Cocktail" follows this exactly (when you use two of the same poison).

For staggered doses (multiple hits from poisoned weapons, multiple rounds of standing in a single dose poison cloud, etc...) you make a save each time you are exposed to the poison, and then again very frequency period. Each failed save incurs the poison's damage (just like the simultaneous dose rule).

With Delay Poison, I'd rule that the poison affects you just as it would have if you didn't have delay poison, just only at a later time. If you breathed in poison over ten rounds, make ten separate saves at the end of the spell. If you drank a cup with 5 doses of poison in it, make 1 save against all those poisons at once at the end of the spell. But that's a house rule, there's no rules anywhere that'd support one way or the other.

Though, it'd be interesting if you made one BIG save at the end of the poison:

Consider using poison against a BBEG. You hit him once with poison, he makes the save. Your party wizard then casts delay poison on the boss. He, thinking it to be beneficial, purposefully fails his save. Next turn, you then load him full of poisoned arrows, wizard casts dispel magic, and the BBEG has a HUGE save to make. He fails, you shoot him full of poisoned arrows where each individual dose has a very high chance of affecting him (Thanks to the high initial dose). GG through cheap poisons.

Though, I honestly don't think that's how it's supposed to work O.o

If you drank a cup with 5 doses of poison in it

A cup with 5 doses of poison...<audibly laughing to my PC>..Is there any drink in that cup, or is it just a cup of poison...? I'm picturing this horrible looking liquid in a teacup....

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

If you drank a cup with 5 doses of poison in it

A cup with 5 doses of poison...<audibly laughing to my PC>..Is there any drink in that cup, or is it just a cup of poison...? I'm picturing this horrible looking liquid in a teacup....

"Congratulations on your victory, here's a round on me!" *chugs*

>=P

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

If you drank a cup with 5 doses of poison in it

A cup with 5 doses of poison...<audibly laughing to my PC>..Is there any drink in that cup, or is it just a cup of poison...? I'm picturing this horrible looking liquid in a teacup....

You were expecting the Orc Chieftain's drink of choice to be nasty.

You weren't expecting yours to be replaced with poison. How would you know?

A dose of poison can be very small--even a few drops. No reason that several doses can't be administered in one drink. In fact, you'd pretty much have to if you wanted to actually kill someone that way.

So in the case of simultaneous poison, like Burnt Other Fumes over 10 rounds (and delay poison wearing off) the save would be DC 36, but you would only lose 1 Con on a failure?

Yes. All of the doses hit you, raising the DC, but you only take the effect of one dose. For poisons requiring (multiple?) successful saves to end, that can be a near-certain killer. King's Sleep indeed.

Edit: Sorry, that was in the context of multiple doses at once without delay poison. I'm still not sure how delay poison works; it's an interesting problem. I don't know if I'd treat separate exposures as simultaneous just because they were all delayed; that seems to go against the purpose of the spell, if not the text.

That's one of the problems I have with this blog interpretation of allowing the initial saves to be increased without the target actually failing a check first to see that the dose affects them.

Since this thread is technically about delay poison I have to mention how such a ruling affects it. Now, instead of just having 10 checks at DC 18, you have 1 check at DC 36. If you had spent 2 minutes searching a room (and searching a room can easily be 5 minutes) that makes the DC 56. Yes, it is only 1 check, but you are now far more likely to fail, which means you then automatically have a 450% increase to duration in addition to having that same impossible save every round.

As it worked by the rules before, drinking an antitoxin would give you a +5 to your checks. That was a legitimately beneficial bonus against 10 DC 18 checks. It is nearly useless against even one DC 36-56 check. Even granting the chance to a roll a 1 on 10 checks, that's only likely to happen once, maybe twice, but that's still only a +4 DC increase rather than an automatic +18-28.

This even makes attempts to use the spell neutralize poison worthless, because attempting to purge the poison requires a caster level check against DC 36-56 now. That is clearly not the intention of how the spells are supposed to work. Using delay poison should not make it worse to be poisoned or harder to protect yourself.

I think that delay poison does nothing to change the order or number of saves that must be made. If you are under the effects of delay poison, you (or more correctly your GM) tracks how many times you are dosed with a poison during the duration.

As an example, the king has delay poison cast on himself, he then proceeds to walk through a hallway with burnt othur fumes in it. He then eats a meal, where the appetizer, main course, and dessert were all poisoned separately with one dose each of arsenic. Lastly, his dessert wine at the dinner had 5 doses of oil of taggit in it.

Now, the king knows his delay poison will wear off around bedtime, so he drinks an antitoxin and takes a seat next to the cleric for when the effects wear off.

He makes a save for first, the burnt othur fumes, and is successful, no affect there.
Then he makes a save for the appetizer. Failed. 1d2 con damage.
Then he makes a save for the main course, the DC is at +2 for the failed appetizer. Failed again. 1d2 con damage again.
Then he makes a save for the dessert course, DC at +4 from the previous failures. Success here. This cures all doses of the arsenic from his system. He still has taken 1d2 con damage twice from the 2 failed saves.
Last, he makes a save for the dessert wine. This is made with the DC at +10 for 5 doses at once. He fails, and passes out.

Exactly as Tarantula said. Until there's some ruling somewhere else given, you can either A. treat poisons as being contracted simultaneously when delay poison ends or B. treat the poisons as they would have been originally been treated: separately unless they actually were consumed simultaneously.

The easiest and most correct option is B. Just treat the poisons as you would have if delay poison wasn't there. All delay poison does is, well, delay poison. Don't change 20 non-simultaneous doses of burnt other fumes to 20 simultaneous doses.

Last, he makes a save for the dessert wine. This is made with the DC at +10 for 5 doses at once. He fails, and passes out.

The save should be at +8, not +10, since there are only 4 -additional- doses of poison :P

You're right, thanks. :)

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

If you drank a cup with 5 doses of poison in it

A cup with 5 doses of poison...<audibly laughing to my PC>..Is there any drink in that cup, or is it just a cup of poison...? I'm picturing this horrible looking liquid in a teacup....

And thus was created the Pathfinder 64-oz Big Gulp :)

On the topic of poison, does alcohol qualify as a poison?

I've been unclear on this one.

I think it does, as dwarves have bonuses to ingested poison, and I'm thinking that's a racial alcohol tolerance. Its also why Duergar are often evil, as they are a race of sober dwarves, all being immune to poison....

Delay poison could have quite a few humorous applications if combined with alcohol.

I would count alcohol as a poison yes. The only rules governing it that I can find are in the drugs section however, which allow for no saves.

Also it allows for drinking of 1+Double CON alcoholic drinks, which for the average human is 21. I don't know about you, but I don't think the average guy can down 21 drinks before he gets sick.

Alcohol is considered a drug, not a poison. CRB Dwarves have no particular resistance to it. That's what the Iron Liver trait is for. : D

Well if we use real life definitions (which we shouldn't for the game!):

"Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison"