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Well, the book itself is fine. But my problem is that Golarion dwarves are BORING.
They are the same old celtic/nordic culture of stout, hardy beer drinking miners. With a stoic, hard-working patron deity, history of warfare against orcs, living in a mountain range. Every dwarf trope is here, and frankly I'm sick of them.
It's double bad over here, where Warhammer Fantasy holds the no.1 RPG spot, and Old World dwarves (which are like Golarion dwarves, except they drink more, hate elves and have the whole trollslayer thing going on) are so deeply embedded in mind of many gamers. I so much wish Paizo would come up with something original for dwarves... While they were able to reinvent the gnomes (yay!) and spice up halflings and elves, not so much luck with the stunties.
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Well, the book itself is fine. But my problem is that Golarion dwarves are BORING.
They are the same old celtic/nordic culture of stout, hardy beer drinking miners. With a stoic, hard-working patron deity, history of warfare against orcs, living in a mountain range. Every dwarf trope is here, and frankly I'm sick of them.
It's double bad over here, where Warhammer Fantasy holds the no.1 RPG spot, and Old World dwarves (which are like Golarion dwarves, except they drink more, hate elves and have the whole trollslayer thing going on) are so deeply embedded in mind of many gamers. I so much wish Paizo would come up with something original for dwarves... While they were able to reinvent the gnomes (yay!) and spice up halflings and elves, not so much luck with the stunties.
I think I agree with this analysis (and I'm a huge WHF dwarven fan too... collecting them since 1988... and I've all the 1st and 2nd WHFRPG stuff...).
Dwarves of Golarion are just too unimmaginative, just your typical D&D dwarves. Besides that the book is decent not really great, imo. 5 kings mountain is described adequately, Torag has his space, as do racial behaviours, but all in all the book feels like the writers didn't really put a lot of immagination in it.As a side note, I feel the same about dwarves portrayed in other Paizo products: they are very few and not really memorable at all.
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I don't know why people get down on dwarves. We all love the scottish sounding, penny pinching, beer consuming, beard wearing, elf and orc hating tropes that exist. I think it would be wrong if that did not exist; however, I am a bit surprised that there is not more difference in the dwarves from different regions. That would have made them more interesting.
Well, the problem is they feel way too much like "classical D&D dwarves". I would have hated if Paizo made them something too different, but I would have liked some twists, like they did on elves as I've played and DMed the classical dwarven stereotype too many times and I would have liked some fresh air.
P.S.
Chaos Dwarves worship a creature named Hashut who's more probably than not a minor chaos demon-god. Droksar, while evil (the god of meaningless toil) isn't a demon, and the whole mutation/slavery/turn to stone if you use magic too much is not on him (yes, Hasut is way superior to Droksar imo, but WHF stuff tends to really be awesome so no big problem there, Droksar is interesting too).
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Ok, since there seems to be a feeling of I wanted more than just what they are, what would you have added then? What would have been "fresh" and new for you that remaind true to classic dwarves?
Droskar though, isn't all that original. He's much like the FR's Laduguer, duegar patron god of toil.
1. Explore the way dwarves are fundamentally different from humans. Concepts like retribution and revenge should be felt with a whole different intensity by dwarves, so much humans can hardly understand. Maybe there are more concepts dwarves feel differently than humans?
2. The whole "civilization on the brink of extintion" has been explored since Tolkien. We could use something different for once. How do dwarves who don't need to fear the hordes of their enemies differ from the classical stereotype?
3. As it is dwarven society is a feudal monarchy where most dwarves accept their lot and work hard to improve it. What about the outcasts? The underworld? What about dwarven pirates?
4. As for classes, "classic dwarves" are usually warriors, clerics, and in golarion, Rangers (the revenge angle). What about specific magical traditions? What about those born with magical powers? Are there orders of paladins? Do dwarves only worship Torag and his brood or do they have consistent cults of other divinities?
5. As for fighting styles, it would be interesting to delve into dwarven specific styles, something is present in Dwarves of Golarion but it's almost cosmetic.
6. Politics. Do dwarves really accept they are a broken empire? Are there movements to restore the ancient glory of their world spanning empire? Are all dwarves really staunch monarchic supporters? If they suspect Andoran... what about Galt?
These are the themes I feel could be expanded/changed giving dwarves a new and different edge without making them too diverse. Feel free to add your toughts.
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Good Points
A lot of what you state here is mentioned in the book. But like you said it's only mentioned. It's hard to get a really fleshed out feel for something in a 40 page supplement.
1 would require more than just the 40 pages as I stated before.
2. This is a different angle and would be a neat idea but I think that many of the traditionalist would have guffawed and complained. I guess it's hard to make everyone happy.
3. This is mentioned in the book but is only lightly glossed over. They talk about the outcasts, "beardless," in the mindspin mountains, I think.
4. They do mention the part of Five Kings that is the massive arcane library. They hint but again it's hard to fit a lot of fluff in a such a small supplement.
5. I would have loved to see more of the fighting styles. But they had a taste of that with some of the feats. I really liked the hammer rebound feat and have thought about building a fighter based around it.
6. The Inner Sea Guide does a bit to help this out and it seems that where the dwarves are located, outside of Five Kings, are fairly incorporated/active in those areas.
Overall I just want more delving into the otherall dwarven ecology in Golarion like 3.5 did with the Races Of books. I agree I'd like to see more but as the book is it's nice as an introduction.
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"Classic" / stereotypical dwarves = AWESOME.
"Changed" dwarves = not dwarves.
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Like all of the Companions, it's a tiny little book. The 2nd edition Complete Book of Dwarves did what I would have said was impossible, turning someone who had, until that point, played almost exclusively elves, into a dwarf fanboi. The battleragers were awesome, thematically. The spiked everything. The new mechanics for dwarven stonecunning, etc. But that book was like five times longer than Dwarves of Golarion, so, of course, it had more stuff in it.
And then 3.X came out, with the 'any race can be any class, with no level limits' concept, and I yearned to see some explorations of dwarvish arcana. Where there rune-wizards, who carved glyphs into the living rock to create powerful lasting enchantments? Were there geomantic sorcerers, who drew power from crystals and 'underdark radiation' and strange alloys, forging spells into metal, and cutting arcane patterns into gemstones? Were dwarves going to head back to a more Norse conception, as master craftsmen of both spells and powerful magical weapons?
Who knows. There was some exploration of that in the Scarred Lands, with a cool Rune Mage PrC, but, for the most part, the notion that dwarves could now be something other than Cleric 8, Fighter 12 and Rogue 10 didn't seem to get explored. Even, a decade or so after the racial class restrictions were abandoned, Dwarves of Golarion, p. 7, suggests that most dwarves with a PC class were either clerics or fighters, making them, perversely, *less* diverse than in 1st edition, when they might also commonly have been thieves...
I liked the new Traits and Spells and other mechanical bits, but felt that the book concentrated a bit too much on the Five Kings Mountains region, and not enough on Dwarves in other countries.
How are dwarves regarded in Cheliax, or Taldor, or Qadira? Are there populations of dwarves in Casmaron or 'Greater Kel?' Even those areas that did get a couple of paragraphs of text, such as the Dwarves of Osirion or in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, seemed to be almost an afterthought.
It's a decent book, full of usable stuff (both mechanical and flavor), but the Dwarves of Golarion come across as stuck in a mountain range 'dwarf ghetto' that has, only recently and, IMO, half-heartedly, declared to be it's own nation. That's a fine D&D tradition, for both dwarves and elves, to stick them either off in a mountain range or forest, or smush them into the middle of a human dominated kingdom as a sub-population, but it's kinda 'been-there, done-that.'
Golarion came out of the gate really strong, with some fresh and unique takes on Goblins and Gnomes, but the Dwarves and Elves and Halflings, IMO, end up looking like the ugly stepsisters by comparison, being less 'fresh.'
I'm sure that was deliberate, in part. Radically transforming old standby PC race into something shocking and new would only risk alienating people coming over from 3.X, with pretty set ideas as what 'elf' and 'dwarf' meant, which was, pretty much, the target audience. Gnomes, being more of a niche race (which even WotC thought it was safe to 'drop'), were a safer choice to give a makeover, I suspect, although I would have greatly enjoyed a new and fresh take on Elves, Dwarves and Halflings as well. Eberron and Dark Sun are examples of fairly successful settings that were willing to step away from the 'elfs and hobbits' of Tolkien, and while I wouldn't want to ape those settings, I would have preferred if the races were reflavored to suit their mechanics (why are elves sickly and weak?) *or* re-mechaniced to suit their flavor (dwarves hate arcane magic, and suck at it!).
I think I got a bit caught up in how radical and fun some of the changes seemed, on a flavor level, and didn't notice how much the mechanics failed to support that flavor (Int 10, Wis 10 Goblins, prone to *accidentally killing themselves* in whacky fun ways, for instance), or how the legacy mechanics of 3.X, which, in some cases, *never* meshed with the flavor text, ended up being carried over in service to backwards-compatibility, despite the flavor text becoming, in some cases, even more strongly in opposition to those mechanics.
So, despite Dwarves of Golarion being a well-written book, my 'quibble' with it is that it might as well be entitled 'Dwarves of Generic Everywhere Else.'
TL;DR
As much Dwarf as can be expected for such a short book. Not enough Golarion.
And, as mentioned above, that may well have been a deliberate design choice, to not alienate 3.X legacy players by making the Dwarves of Golarion too different from everybody else's Dwarves.
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2. The whole "civilization on the brink of extintion" has been explored since Tolkien. We could use something different for once. How do dwarves who don't need to fear the hordes of their enemies differ from the classical stereotype?
The dwarves in Golarion don't seem "on the brink of extinction", they have voluntarily moved to the surface, they haven't be pushed by enemies.
They have lost a few of the original citadels, but don't seem to lack them.
What they lack is a larger unified land. The 5 kingdoms are a relatively small area.
I hope that when the know lands get expanded we will discover that there is a large dwarven empire somewhere.
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I hope that when the know lands get expanded we will discover that there is a large dwarven empire somewhere.
That would be cool.
I just sort of tweaked the setting so that the Lands of the Linnorm Kings are predominantly dwarven. There are no Ulfen humans, only Ulfen dwarves (although there are still humans living in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, just as there are populations of dwarves living in many human-dominated kingdoms).
Going back to the original question about the quality of the book. I think this is the best of the "race" books done so far. It had the right mix of fluff and crunch for me. And I found both parts interesting and useful. The Gnome, Orc and Halfling books were good but I did not like the elf book. All personal opinions, which I am sure other disagree with.
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Are the Ulfen dwarves particularly tall for dwarves?I just sort of tweaked the setting so that the Lands of the Linnorm Kings are predominantly dwarven. There are no Ulfen humans, only Ulfen dwarves (although there are still humans living in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, just as there are populations of dwarves living in many human-dominated kingdoms).
Nah. I was fine with the idea of short stout Vikings raiders. :)
i don't see how elves are radically different in golarion then say greyhawk except maybe the eyes and i guess the darker attitude. now eberron had some different elves (warlike or necromantic). i didn't care for eberron elves to be honest. like any character it depends on what you as a player make them. i've historically played primarily dwarves and halflings and the last time i played a stereotypical one was when i was 12.
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The big thing that was lacking for me in the book was a language section. A page of common words would have gone a long way toward helping me generate names for locations NPCs and magic items.
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I have changed Dwarves thusly:
Female dwarves though are stubborn as their male kin, and some don't want to be mothers and matriarchs. So they set out and seek adventure (against the advice of their clan), Dwarves don't think their women incapable of adventure, just that the risk is too great!
This gives automatic hooks for dwarf players (seek adventure and prove worth for true love, or reject your role and seek adventure despite your family's wishes).
What about LGBT dwarves?
Well with so few women about, some dwarves do fall in for homosexuality, and sometimes a dwarf male shaves and becomes a female for many reasons, some sexual and some social (dwarves don't talk about their sexuality much), although they make their inability to breed clear to potential suitors. Female dwarves do sometimes become lesbians too, although most who do still marry dwarf males to carry on the clan but that's dwarf honor subsuming one's own desires for the good of the clan. Some females wear false beards and become males, (again for same reasons humans do), the taboo is greater though since such dwarves won't breed and thus are dangerous for the continuation of a clan.
In any case the above works to explain dwarves for what they are presented as while going beyond the surface for a richer more complex culture.
Inspiration: Tolkien, Pratchett, Qadira, Bees.
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I like that, Dudemeister.
Here's my idea for making dwarves more interesting:
Using a dwarf's Marked property without permission is considered equivalent to theft. If a craftsman dies, dwarven honor demands that all of his Marked possessions be buried with him, for his use in the afterlife. Sometimes, a dwarf might undertake perilous adventures just to retrieve any missing or stolen items that his long-dead relatives or ancestors.
Conversely, Unmarked items are not really considered to be individual property. Instead, they are treated as the communal property of an entire dwarven society, and are expected to be shared freely with anyone who needs to use them.
This conception often complicates dwarves' relationships with other races. The dwarven reputation for xenophobia is largely a result of their worry that outsiders won't respect these rules. And it's very easy for an outsider to accidentally offend a dwarf, either by using a Marked item without permission, or else by refusing a dwarf's request to borrow an Unmarked item.
Basically, I want to play up the interesting economic aspects of the classic dwarven stereotype.
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I like that, Dudemeister.
Here's my idea for making dwarves more interesting:
** spoiler omitted **
Basically, I want to play up the interesting economic aspects of the classic dwarven stereotype.
You can expand the idea into the area of social interaction. Dwarves place a mark on those whom they call friend, ally, or family member. These marks can be non-permanent in the case of short-term allies, but family marks are always permanent. To be offered to share a permanent mark by a dwarf means he trusts you implicitly. Betray that trust, and he will insist on trying to remove the mark, forcibly if necessary. As a result, each dwarf as a certain amount of tattoos, scars, and paint on his skin. The most important marks - clan and allegiance and family membership - are tattooed on the forehead.
Thanks for the inspiration. Now to write that down somewhere...
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That's pretty cool, Maximus. Though I think for myself, I'm going to limit the idea of Marks to just material possessions.
There are some other interesting implications, though:
This is why, to outsiders, it seems as though dwarves tend to "hoard" their gold. It isn't that they are greedy, it's that they don't wish to give their king's property to outsiders who won't recognize his rights.
I'd agree with posters who state that the book itself was well-enough written, but it didn't even attempt to take the race in a direction even slightly different from how it's been perceived since the beginning of RPGs. It was a wasted opportunity, in other words, to mark Golarion dwarves as a unique and special race you just couldn't find in other settings, like Golarion gnomes.
There have been many good suggestions in this thread, so I'll add my own. The most interesting thing about dwarves for me is their concept of honor. It's bound to be different from the human concept -- how? Might dwarven honor make it honorable to save the life of someone from a non-hostile race, but dishonorable to have one's life saved by such a person? Are dwarves living in places not ruled by dwarves considered to be exercising a simple choice, is it a specific sign of dwarven appreciation of that place, or is it considered an insult to family and clan that a dwarf would rather live under another race's rule? Is it honorable or dishonorable to have one's work traded to other races, i.e. is it good to have other races realize first-hand that dwarven craftsmanship is superior to their own, or does it sully the work to let other races get their filthy hands on it?
Likewise, how do these concepts of honor compel a dwarf to act? Do different levels of perceived disrespect mandate different levels of retribution (an unintentional verbal insult might demand a small monetary recompense while a deliberate slur against the whole dwarven race must be repaid by the deaths of the speaker and his two closest companions)? If a dwarf dishonors his clan and flees to the outside world, is it the job of the whole clan to bend every effort to get him back and punish him, or do they have certain people who do that, or do they think that living away from dwarven society is enough punishment for anyone? How do dwarves show respect to others of their people who have earned great honor, and how do such dwarves comport themselves among other races?
How would such views on honor shape dwarven society? Is failing to show appropriate and proper respect to another dwarf punishable, and does the punishment change based on the relative status of the parties in question? Are the constraints of honor relaxed within the family or are they strictly enforced even there? Do dwarves demand a certain respect from their non-dwarven companions, or do they just assume that other races are a bunch of grotesque barbarians who can't be expected to know how to wipe their own bums, much less comport themselves properly?
The best dwarven characters I've ever played adhered to a rigid code of honor, had strict expectations of others, and based their reactions to the world on criteria of race, caste, social class, economic status, and a host of other markers that those of other races considered baffling and arbitrary but that my character was ready and willing to die for. In Golarion terms they were almost like a cross between a Hellknight and a Tian-Min samurai. They were prickly customers to be sure, but they were very rewarding and memorable to play, and they defended the lives and honor of worthy allies with greater vigor than they defended their own. They had their own unique cultural outlook that had nothing to do with drunken, slobbish, foul-mouthed Scottish stereotypes.
I like that, Dudemeister.
Here's my idea for making dwarves more interesting:
** spoiler omitted **
Basically, I want to play up the interesting economic aspects of the classic dwarven stereotype.
I think this was also done in one of the PF Tales novels iirc: Song of the Serpent. It had an interesting dwarf citadel in Druma in it with a dwarven protagonist.
Set which part if the races crunch doesn't fit the fluff? Maybe we extract some nice fluff from it. (Thinking about how the elves' racial resistances shed some light/can be explained by the environment on Verces their (alleged) home world.)
Also for rune mages and different dwarves you had lots of 3e 3pp supplements. Some of them excellent.
In the Rival Guide there's an awesome jungle dwarf Druid btw.
I would like to some interesting dwarf nation similar to Chainmail settings communist dwarves in Golarion. Also more on garundi/osirioni/tian dwarves.
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I think this was also done in one of the PF Tales novels iirc: Song of the Serpent. It had an interesting dwarf citadel in Druma in it with a dwarven protagonist.I like that, Dudemeister.
Here's my idea for making dwarves more interesting:
** spoiler omitted **
Basically, I want to play up the interesting economic aspects of the classic dwarven stereotype.
I'll have to give that a read, Thanael!
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Warlords of the Accordlands gave dwarves a pretty cool role.
They were surface dwellers like the other races. After Dragon was felled and ended up deep below the world, the dwarves agreed that they would go underground and stand guard. They continually fought the abysalls that were created out of Dragon's body.
They were gone so long the aboveground races completely forgot they existed. The dwarves are starting to lose the battle and some have come back to the surface world for help. The surface dwellers think they're demons or something.
They are generally presented as honorable fighters and smiths as per usual.
The four Warlords campaign setting books have some GREAT stuff.
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If it helps here's what I've done in my games
The known clans function almost identically to what we would know as the stereotypical dwarves with their numbers representing the majority of dwarven kind and being separated into 30 overarching clans that rule large swaths of the North. These clans are what remains of the original clans that founded the dwarven society in the distant past. Dwarves of one of these 30 clans are considered full citizens in any dwarven lands they travel in.
The Lost are a varying assortment of 20 odd clans of dwarves that are scattered across the expanse or have been lost to the annals of time. All of these clans were once considered part of the original dwarven clans but have through one means or another fallen or become extinct. The reasons for their disappearances run the gamut from absorbtion into other clans to total descents into madness, clans that went mad upon reaching the surface and staring for too long into the endless abysses of stars and skies. These clans include everything from a lost clan of balder worshipers who set off into the unknown in the hopes of finding their dead god and bringing him back to fenrir following lycan dwarves, desperate to war, kill, and spread the accursed blessing of their monstrous god. This group even includes those clans that haven't been seen since the dwarves migration to the surface with at least one lost clan said to be one that stayed behind while the rest climbed up.
The lost are considered a tragedy by most known dwarves with most dwarves holding the opinion that should any of these clans be found (like the aforementioned balder followers) or be cured of their insanties (like the fenrir followers) they would be welcomed back into dwarven society with open arms.
Finally you have The Exiles. The Exiles are dwarven exiles, dumped on this continent by the dwarven clans from across the sea for their various crimes against their homelands. These dwarves are shunned almost universally by all known dwarven clans who avoid these pariahs as a matter of course, not wanting to be associated with a group of dwarves who by default have already violated dwarven culture to such a degree that they have been cast out and sent hundreds of miles across the sea for their crimes. So lacking their family, unified culture, technology, and all the other benefits that a dwarf has thanks to its society these dwarves are forced to fend for themselves and begun to create their own clans. These clans are cobbled together from various individual dwarves who share similar skills in order to make a clan that focuses on whatever these individuals are particularly good at.
Examples of these include the Miggards, merchant dwarven nomads who travel the tundra trading with the surface populations in order to make a living for themselves. These dwarves have no tradition of martial prowess and are known for both their willingness to make a deal to end a battle as well as for hiring warriors from other races to aid them whenever they need to resort to violence.
Another are the Stolics. These survivors of the darklands have become one of the most heretical of all clans, one composed of both dwarves and orcs. These dwarves live deep in the underground where on top of the orcs that they had to fend of to survive had to deal with the horrors in the dark that hunted them both. Backed into a corner the dwarves made a bold decision. Their leaders met with the local orc war chief and made him an offer, join forces against their mutual enemies and become one clan. The dwarves would gain the orcs numbers and the orcs would gain the dwarves training and smithing techniques. Now they are a clan of dwarves and orcs, defending their homes (and those of the surface dwellers by extension) from the horrors of the deep shadow. Half-orc spawn are common amongst their numbers as the centuries of time that have passed have fused their cultures into one beautiful hybrid with dwarven berzerkers infused with orcish bloodlust and orcs in gleaming dwarven plate, moving in lockstep thanks to generations of military training.
Suffice it to say the unorthodox societies and cultures of these various tribes do not engender them to the common dwarves who treat them as 2nd class citizens at best and horrible abominations of the dwarven ideal at worst. It's important to realize that just because the exiled clans are disliked doesn't mean they are evil.
Hope this helps foster more interesting conversations on dwarves.
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If it helps here's what I've done in my games
** spoiler omitted **...
Dat values dissonance.
Thanks man, I was trying to find new ways to make dwarves, elves, and gnomes more interesting to players and distinguish what makes the one in my world different from those you see in other games. Also it makes them just so much cooler to play when you half dwarf half-orcs, werewolf dwarven clans, and neanderthal commissioning non-martial ones all living and interacting off each other. In the end though I feel like dwarves are also just fun to deconstruct since we've built such a rigid history and mythos around them that you can really create something different by breaking them down and putting them in new situations while still getting dwarves.
I'll just leave a dot here.
I've been trying to make the dwarves of my own campaign setting unique without alienating my players, who are used to the stereotypical dwarves.
Of course, considering that my campaign world is not humanocentric, one nation of dwarves can embrace the stereotypes while others are free to deviate from them.
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"Classic" / stereotypical dwarves = AWESOME.
"Changed" dwarves = not dwarves.
^- This "no true Scotsman" stuff is why we can't have nice things.
I really do wish Paizo had done more to develop dwarves. They had a promising start with the whole "Quest for the Sky" background but then they just sort of went with the standard "Argh laddy, let me grab my axe" dwarves we've always had. Hopefully they'll do to Elves & Dwarves what they did to the Pathfinder Society and they're apparently going to do to Dragons. They glossed over some of the less-then-ideal stuff in Seeker of Secrets and nudged the PFS more toward where they want it to be in the Field Guide. Dragons Revisited was a little too Forgotten Realmsy, so they've kind of downplayed it and now they're releasing Dragons Unleashed.
Maybe someday they'll do a dwarven-themed adventure path or module and release an updated book on dwarves that nudges them in a more interesting direction?
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"Classic" / stereotypical dwarves = AWESOME.
"Changed" dwarves = not dwarves.
^- This "no true Scotsman" stuff is why we can't have nice things.
I really do wish Paizo had done more to develop dwarves. They had a promising start with the whole "Quest for the Sky" background but then they just sort of went with the standard "Argh laddy, let me grab my axe" dwarves we've always had. Hopefully they'll do to Elves & Dwarves what they did to the Pathfinder Society and they're apparently going to do to Dragons. They glossed over some of the less-then-ideal stuff in Seeker of Secrets and nudged the PFS more toward where they want it to be in the Field Guide. Dragons Revisited was a little too Forgotten Realmsy, so they've kind of downplayed it and now they're releasing Dragons Unleashed.
Maybe someday they'll do a dwarven-themed adventure path or module and release an updated book on dwarves that nudges them in a more interesting direction?
Uhh they kind of did do something new with elves with the whole...
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yeah why are dwarves always beer drinking scottish/celtish?
I remember years ago while living in NYC, at one D&D game we had a British student playing at the table. He was playing a Dwarven Cleric. One of the other players turned to him and asked " Where is your scottish accent? your playing a dwarf right?" to which he replied " bloody hell why do all dwarves have to be from Scottland....and then he turned in character ( in his british accent) and said " well sir, it appears you have only met my less civilized cousins...the Hill Dwarves. You have yet to make the acquaintance of a more refined mountain dwarf such as myself". At first we all laughed, and then it made sense. from that point forward we had two types of dwarves in the campaign: the more commonly recognized Hill Dwarf (fighters clerics thieves) and the much more reclusive and refined Mountain Dwarf ( Fighter Clerics Thieves, Bards Wizards etc)
I frankly love the classic dwarves. The problem with dwarves in Golarion is that they are mainly ignored not that they are too classic.
That said if you want something different, regional varieties would be good or perhaps some varieties of outcasts or cursed. I loved the Arcanis dwarves driven to perfection to escape an ancient curse of the gods. I also loved the Arcanis Reaver Dwarves. Imagine the reavers from Firefly but now make them dwarves. Awesome.
^- This "no true Scotsman" stuff is why we can't have nice things."Classic" / stereotypical dwarves = AWESOME.
"Changed" dwarves = not dwarves.
Nah. That's not why.
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Also you should see some of the stuff I do with OrcsGo on...
Lol okay though I don't know if this is something we should make a whole 'nother thread for or I should shoot you it in a pm.
To start most Orcs are, like in other games CE. They refer to them as something akin to the humanoid cockroach; annoying, durable, and everywhere. That being said they are huge and scattered all over the globe with societies that have grown and mutated to fit their environment.
Far in the northwest you have tribal savannah dwelling orcs who worship the sun and it's patron Nurgal as the greatest of foes. To them it embodies the greatest enemy, a burning immortal on high who's burning lashes (the rays of the sun) whip orc kind until only the strong survive and the weak burn away. Basically they have turned their fear and hatred of the sun that is brought on by their light sensitivity into worship.
Next you have the Orcs of the Blighted Mire. These orcs live as traveling nomads and swamp farmers, seeking to eke out a life amongst what is basically a giant primal amazon with dinosaurs. These orcs have a more varying alignment spread with the average orcs being closer to CE-CN thanks to the more extreme environment and need to cooperate and trade with the human inhabitants. Swamper born also heard various animals to help supplement their hunts including capybara, caimans, and large fish like arapaima. The also are more likely to build permanent or semi permanent dwellings with tribes building floating or stilt houses that hey live in for all or part of the year.
The other large chunk of the orc population in the mire is closer to the norm but live more on the boarders or in the shadow empires to the north where supplies are more plentiful and they are much closer to the top of the food chain. Those that live on the boarder are currently locked in a long running boarder war with the human empire to the west, who wants their land. They've been lead by a mysterious orc strategist known by the name of Gorgumesh. Gorgumesh is basically Sun Tzu in an orcs skin, waging a battle for over a century against a force on par with the roman legion with only whatever wandering mercenary bands he has managed to attract. Still he's managed to hold his line for that long and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Some even whisper that he's a prophet, this world's equivalent of a mortal turned god, with orc adherents flocking to his sides to learn his philosophy of war. Of course the empire thinks this is a lie and that the name is a moniker passed down and seek to capture his followers and their books in order to discover their secrets. Suffice it to say this isn't easy when they write all their holy books in alchemist fire on woodblock and sealed in resin, all crafted to ignite if exposed to fire or opened incorrectly so as to protect the words of their profit. Also it makes them solid explosives and fire starters.
Now there's still more on Orcs and the half-orcs that I haven't gotten into but again I don't think the dwarf thread is a good place to bat around orc concepts. If this interests you though let me know, I'd be glad to go over more of it in a more appropriate thread. Also it helps me make a more interesting world for my players and my work.
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I just recently ran a campaign section through the Five Kings Mountains. I had some fun with the dwarf names, basing them all off German words. That way my wife, who plays a dwarf and is a German Studies student, could have some fun spotting the meanings and pointing them out to the other players.
I also gave them an interesting religious ritual for the anniversary of theend of the Quest for Sky. The priest of Torag ritually presents the priests of Desna and Sarenrae with jewels, representing the dwarves as a gift from Torag to the troubled surface world. Then the jewels are given back to the dwarven king, representing the sky as the great gift to the dwarven people.
I like the classic dwarves for the northern continent of Avistan, but I don't think it fits for Garund. I've tried to differentiate dwarves that arose there.
My take says that the cultures diverged at the time of the Quest for Sky. Garund dwarves emerged in the Mwangi Expanse, a realm quite alien to the unfortunate dwarves to emerge there. The orcs driven ahead had already mostly succumbed to the horrors of the jungle so they posed little problem, but there was still disease, demon apes, and worse.
Once they escaped to the drier side of the Barrier Wall and Shattered Range, their numbers were dangerously reduced and warlike temperament blunted. They eventually became the desert dwarves- dependent on trade, traveling in nomadic caravans like the humans of these lands and sending their best to continue mining in hidden enclaves.
My southern dwarves hold Kols, the Oath-Keeper as their most revered God, don't drink alcohol, and are secretive and solemn. They tend more toward tinkerers than fighters though monks and oathbound warriors stand ready to defend dwarven enclaves and enforce taboos. I give them a Turkish rather than Scotish accent.
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A lot of good points made previously. Particularly on fighting styles, interest surrounding Droskar, and the fact that the same boring cookie cutter dwarf is still the focus.
My brother and I play dwarves almost exclusively. And while we love traditionalist style play, adherence to the rules, avoiding radical house rules,(etc) we always challenge the status quo where character creation is concerned because its boring. I do not want to play a LG dwarven fighter who worships Torag. I've never had the desire.
But what deity should my Neutral Dwarf Rogue revere? He can choose tunnel fighter as a trait, he can choose trap spotter as a rogue, he can follow the rough basis for dwarven characteristics, but only up to a point. Why aren't there more feats for fighting in narrow tunnels with piercing weapons? An axe or warhammer is not suitable for that terrain. Why is the God(Goddess?) Dranngvit lawful? Vengeance hardly seems like a lawful endeavor in most cases, but would make for a great patron of an Inquisitor hunting down orc raiders, or drow assassins for a horrible crime against their people. Dwarven Barbarians are always characterised as berserkers. Forgotten realms and R.A. Salvatore have seen to it that we are more than tired of the age old Battlerager concept. Why aren't there any Clans, or factions that have fled the underground after their Quest for Sky to live under...the sky? Barbaric clans of dwarves with shamans, hunters and noble barbaric warriors, who in their independence have veered more towards a Neutral Good outlook, and an above ground lifestyle that still somehow reveres their heritage and ancestral skills?
Just a few ideas to exemplify the overall disappointing shortcomings. I suppose if I had to ask Paizo to take one thing away from this, its the alignment spectrum offered with the pantheon of dwarven deities. Please make us a Chaotic Good tunnel rat God, or a CN Dwarven God of the Underdark, or a Neutral God of Stoneworking or Earth. Something to broaden the spectrum for us, and lend a little more room to customize our dwarves and escape the boring cookie cutter Thorin Oakenshield's of 2nd edition D&D.