Zarion Blutnagel's page

That looks solid, though I'd probably grab Double Debilitation before grabbing Crippling Strike.

I might also go Dodge at 3rd and Twist Away at 5th, since it's the ring of Ferocious Action that really makes it awesome and you won't be able to get that quite as early as 3rd.

You are spending too many advanced talents in offense when the rogue is naturally offensive but lacks defense. Get Slippery Mind before Crippling Strike (also, Double Debilitation is usually better than Crippling Strike, and they are mutually exclusive).

Iron Will is too late, though. At that point, you need immunities. You'd be better off with Improved Critical.

I'm not ENTIRELY sure Double Slice is worth it... it's just such a small damage boost (about 4 or so points of damage?) at that level, when most of your damage comes from sneak attack. Disorienting Maneuver should be higher priority, since your attack is the low thing.

Did I mention Canny Tumble stacks with Disorienting Maneuvers since they are circumstance bonuses from two different sources? That should boost your accuracy way up high.

1. Two-weapon fighting

So. That should be it. I think it's pretty much done.
Thanks for all the help and advice!

Please let me know if I missed something or if you have some other suggestions for the last few feats and talents but I think I'll just get the few usefull things that are still left.

About "Double Slice". I'm not really sure if it would even work.
I wanted it because of the "use dex instead of str" stuff from Finesse Training but it is unclear if the 1,5 for twohanded / 0,5 for off-hand rule even applies. Neither is it clear is Double Slice would let me use the full bonus.
I checked the forums and couldn't find an official answer (but apparently I'm not the only one who has this question).
Seems like that is up to my DM too... sure would complain if I just get the bonus without the feat.

I'd drop Cha to 7 for Int 12. It's thematically appropriate and more useful. I might also drop Con to 12. The 13 is only worth it if you buy it to 14 at 4th level, and that delays raising Dex.

Wall Climber isn't worth it. By 8th, you'll almost certainly have someone with Fly, and spending a Talent to get a worse version of that? Not worth it.

I'd strongly recommend Indomitable Faith and probably Iron Will, given your mediocre Will Save, as well as Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action for Fort Saves. Both are more Important than Dodge (unless going Circling Mongoose, which has the disadvantage of being pretty Feat intensive).

Oh, as a rules issue, ITWF can't be grabbed at 7trh level, though you grab it at 8th with Combat Trick if you like.

Toughness isn't necessary, though FCB to HP is definitely the way to go.

So, well. If I actually rearange the ability scores that way I end up with some pretty odd numbers but hell, let's put it all together and see how it turns out:

Str: 10
Dex: 20*
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 07

(+2 because of the campaign trait "Baba Yaga's chosen")

Traits:
Reactionary: +2 initiative
Defensive stratigist: (basically) Uncanny dodge
Indomitable Faith: +1 will save

1. Two-weapon fighting
2. Talent: Weapon Training: Dagger
3. Twist away
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Dodge
6. Talent:Combat Trick: Mobility
7. Spring Attack
8. Talent: Resiliency
9. Circling Mongoose
10.Talent: Opportunist
11.Improved two weapon fighting
12.Talent: Crippling strike
13.double slice
14.Talent: Double Debilitation
15.Disorienting Maneuver
16.Talent: Skill mastery
17.Iron will (pretty late, but I'd like to get circling mogoose)

*I know Skill focus (Acrobat) is really sub-optimal but I pretty much have to get it. There will probably be many situations where I have to move through threatened spaces to get a sneak attack. Also it will help me with circling mongoose later.

Rogue's Edge skills: Acrobatics at 5th, Disable device or stealth at 10th? Perception seems nice too but I don't think our DM is this strict with distances and such, so that might be a waste.

The magus VMC can give you level to damage via arcane deed and precise strike. I think that May be worth a look. But TWF will have to go.

Maybe but actually I'm not really looking for cross-class or magic options

I'm wondering if Circling Mongoose actually works with the 8th level Scout Ability, I see 2 potential issues

1) the language the Skirmisher ability says that you can make "an attack action", I was just reading the Spring Attack entry on the PFSRD where it is clarified that Vital Strike (which requires an "attack action") does not work with sprig attack because an "attack action" is a specific kind of standard attack. Since Skirmisher (the 8th level ability) carries similar language, I believe it potentially disqualifies it from working with Circling Mongoose (which requires a full-round action).

2)! The Skirmisher ability also carries language stipulating that If the Scout makes more than 1 attack in a turn then the ability only applies on the first attack. Making Circling Mongoose work for it requires you to make 2 attacks prior.

On a semi-related note, concerning point 1, I see many people recommend using Spring Attack with a Scout, but doesn't Spring Attack fall into the same issue with the 8th level ability as It does with Vital Strike?

It might have the same issue but there is no official statement regarding this combination, which means it is up to the DM to decide.

Rerednaw wrote:

Sorry, I think I am missing something. This is a TWF rogue...that has the Scout Archetype. I thought the Scout's special ability only worked if the character moves 10 feet or more (8th level) or charge (4th level)...which means you aren't getting TWF...or are you?

Is there a way to combine the two? Sorry haven't been active a while and a bit rusty here. :)

The idea here is that the "circling mongoose" feat lets you move 5 feet and attack, move 5 feet and attack, move 5 feet and attack.

I only really know about "circling mongoose" thanks to you guys but I allready wanted to include TWF before.

Mainly to make the build more versatile. For example I could:
1. Throw mutiple daggers at flat-footed oponents in the first round
2. Use the scouts abilities to quickly advance to opponents, while still doing sneak attack damage.
3. Have more attacks against flanked opponents(we have mutiple fighters in the group so this shouldn't be a problem)

Basically I wanted to have more options to sneak attack while being more mobile than a "Two-weapon feint" rogue.

Sadly I have to give up "Improved Uncanny Dodge" for it, which sucks because that means my rogue might die from getting flanked.

I'm a big fan of the Minor Magic trick. Lots of good 0 levels spells to choose from.

Then grab the Feat: Arcane Strike - Since your rogue levels now count as caster levels. This will give you a stackable magical enhancement on your weapons, giving you a bonus to hit (very important) and damage.

Thanks for the advice, not sure if I'll include it. I like the idea

Also, as others have said Arcane strike only gives me a damage bonus which only gets higher if I actually have caster levels, so I'm not sure about that.

Still looking for some advice regarding the later levels.
I'm also still not sure if really should drop the skill focus at level 3.

Which Skills would you suggest for the "Rogue's Edge"?
Maybe acrobatics first and disable device, escape artist or stealth second?

If you want to combine Scout + TWF, you want to use Circling Mongoose and pick up that whole feat line.

I don't understand how Circling Mongoose combines well with the scouts special abilities. Maybe I misunderstood the feat, could you please explain the reason?

1. you don't qualify for ITWF until level 8.

oops, yeah. Missed that.

2. Skill Focus (Acrobatics) is not necessarily great... The only time I'd recommend SF is for Versatile Performance bards.

I noly really got it for the whole "Move Through Threatened Squares without provoking AoO" since beating the enemy's CMD sounds pretty tough. Maybe I should leave it out afterall?

3. You have too many mutually exclusive sneak attack talents, you are better off with weapon training and resiliency early on, particularly due to low attack bonus.

Ok, I'll rework that.

4. Feel free to dump Intelligence to 8. You don't really need that statistic.

Can't do that. I won't make that my primary role but I still have to be the group's skill monkey.

5. You NEED great fortitude.

That and possibly Toughness?

I don't think the Unchained Rogue can take Offensive Defense. I'm at work so I can't check my book but I don't think they included that talent.

oh, that is correct. I just checked. This and Befuddling Strike is replaced by Debilitating injury.

Thanks already for the advice! I'll try to rework it, please keep it coming.

Edit: How about this?

I read the rogue guides that are listed here:
http://zenithgames.blogspot.de/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides. html

I'm not rying to make the most optimised character possible but I also don't want to be useless because I picked the wrong feats and talents.
What do you think?

I'm going to start at 3rd level.

Race: Elf, 15 Points point-buy (+2 to one attribute because of the special "Baba Yaga's chosen" from the campaign we are playing)

Stats:

Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 08

Traits:
Reactionary: +2 initiative
Defensive stratigist: (basically) Uncanny dodge
Strong arm, subtle wrist: move 10ft = +10ft throwing range

1. Two-weapon fighting
2. Talent: Befuddling Strike
3. Skill focus (Acrobat)
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Dodge
6. Talent: Offensive defense
7. Improved two weap.
8. Talent: Ninja trick: Wall climber
9. Disorienting Maneuver
10. Talent: Opportunist
11. Opening volley? Point blank shot? Improved initiative?
12. Talent: Crippling strike
13. ?
14 Talent: Skill mastery
15. ?
16. Talent: Entanglement of Blades

I'm not sure what I should take later.

i'm also not that familiar with the Unchained rules (I build this before, just reading up on the new rules) incase any of the feats or talents are now not needed

Please tell me if I made any huge mistakes with the feats and talents I choose or if I should get them in a different order.

New Weapon: The Flying Guillotine
Consisting of a mechanical, bag-like contraption attached to a long rope, this weapon is infamous for it's difficulty to use. It is designed for the bag to be thrown over an opponents head, and then with a pull of the rope, blades spring out of the mechanism, hopefully, severing the targets head and returning it to the wielder. To use it is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The attacker must roll to hit as normal, but suffers a -4 penalty. Non-proficient users suffer a -8 penalty. If the weapon hits, it inflicts an automatic Coup De Grace on the target. Retrieving the guillotine is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Name Flying Guillotine
Cost 75gp
Damage 1d6 Small, 1d8 Medium
Range 40 ft
Weight 20 lbs
Type Slashing
Qualities Special; See above

Well it's been quite a while since someone posted here, so I guess you either scrapped the idea or used one of the suggestions but anyways here is my version:

First I would change the Range to 20 ft (the reach of a Kyoketsu Shoge or Rope Dart). A Weight 10 lbs is more fitting when compared to other weapons. The damage seems fine.
As for the Qualities how about: Deadly; Monk(optional, might make it too powerful);Special*

(*If an attack from this weapon reduces the target to zero or less HP, the attacker may immediatly deliver a coup de grace as free action. The attacker does not need to be adjacent to the target. The coup de grace still provokes attacks of opportunity as usual.
If the target is already helpless the coup de grace is handled as usual.)

I also agree that you should use it to auto-kill a low-level NPC first,
so the players understand how deadly the Guillotine is.

Ok, I have another question regarding the monk, or rather how I can spend ki points.

By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can do one of the following:

Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack, or
Increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or
Give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.

Each of these powers is activated as a swift action.

I know I can only use one swift action each round, which means I can only do one of those BUT is it possible to spend more then one ki point?

Would I be able to spend 3 ki points as swift action to get the benefits times three, like three additional attacks and so on?

Then i guess just taking fortitude would be better for me. The will and fort saves will be high anyways, it also means i don't need the reflex boni you suggested.

I guess it's Toughness, Outflank or Elemental fist, two of these three.

I guess I won't take Elemenal fist though. It seems cheaper to have one or two monk weapons with an energy damage type.

Well I guess that's pretty much it, unless somebody has any other suggestion about which feat I should, or shouldn't take.

Thanks again for all your post

Drunken Brawler is better because the effects stack

Oh, well that is different. So does that mean:

A lvl 6 Character gets 6hp +2fort +2will -2ref when he drinks one tankart
and a total of 12hp +4fort +4will -4ref when he drinks the second?

Well yeah that is pretty nice, looks like I didn't really get the feat at first

If you go Tiefling you should probably drop Endurance and Drunken Bralwer because then you delay Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity a lot. It does not worth it. At least take it at lvl 9 instead of 3.

Ok, I think I'll just get Toughness. It basically gives me the same number of hitpoints, only permanent instead of temporary.

I guess I'll also get Outflank then since I won't need endurance

What do you think?

I love it, or atleast parts of it.

I might have to rethink this later

The Dimensional Feats just basically turn this into a charge that uses a Swift action to essentially ignore line of sight and/or terrain(since he's teleporting back to back)

Unless I'm reading into this incorrectly. If so, please point that out. I do not want to waste Feats on my character when the time comes.

I'm not sure about that.

Dimensional Dervish doesn't say anything about granting the same boni as charge, it just lets me move really fast while doing a Full Attack.

Thanks for your help, you all helped me a lot!
But I have some new questions:

...

Thanks a lot for the Fast Drinker advice, I didn't even know you can use magic items to meet feat Prerequisites.

...

Yeah, you are right. Not taking the "Dimensional Feats" would probably be a waste. Would you suggest I take Dimensional Savant and Outflank too?

...

Toughness would be great too if I have any feats left for it

Still not sure if I should mix it with the Qinggong Monk. The only Spell that seems kinda usefull to me is Barkskin.

So how about I replace Power Attack, Greater Grapple, Quick Draw, Rapid Grappler, Nimble moves and Dragon's Roar/Crushing Blow

with

Endurance, Drunken Brawler, Dimensional Agility,- Assault,- Dervish
and maybe Dimensional Savant or Toughness?

So I just read Treantmonk's and Revel's Monk guides.

I tried to create a character and this is what I came up with:

I am not a very experienced player. Please tell me if I made any mistake with the feats I choose or the order I'm going to take them.

Thanks in advance

A Cleric or Inquisitor of Kofusachi will use the Bo Staff.

can't argue with that

Epic. Thank-you for your help. It's nice to know that it's been addressed.

so, what do you think about it?

I know it was addressed, I even quoted it.
The problem is how it was addressed

Any monk weapon that essentially is 1d6 damage with a normal x2 crit and 1 special effect other than monk should be something all monks are proficient in.

It would make sense if there where any weapons(^those^ for example) that had "monk is proficient with it" in their description (which every weapon from APG has), but the way it is now every monk weapon from UC needs the character to have an extra Feat, which means the only character that will EVER use the BO is the "unarmed fighter" (and monk of the empty hand, but he doesn't count) and even a Rogue can use the Han-Bo

Great guide, really. It has all the necessary infomartions without being too long.

There is one Feat you could possibly add: "Accelerated Drinker", it enables you to drink a potion as a move instead of a standard action.

It may not be all that usefull for most monks but I guess it's a nice alternative for Drunken Masters that don't have the 18 CON you need for "Fast Drinker" (I'll probably use it this way) and it also works for potions.

How you can actually use Accelerated Drinker depends on your DM, since the description only mentions potions but I guess using this feat for booze would be less of a gamebreaker then drinking potions as swift action with Fast Drinker.

Naw, let's not go into this discussion please. I know I might have started it and I'm sorry if thats the case.

All I'm trying to say is:

In the ultimate combat faq, this question was addressed:

Monk Weapons: If a weapon is specified as a monk weapon, does that mean that monks are automatically proficient with that weapon?
No. It means that they can use this weapon while using flurry of blows. It does not mean that it is added to the list of weapons that a monk is proficient with, unless the weapon description says otherwise.

—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Thursday Back to Top

seems kinda odd when you consider that:

A) the "unarmed fighter" CAN use all monk weapons

B) any extra feat would be a total wast for most monk weapons

C) The monk would be far from overpowerd even if he could use all monk
weapons from start.

...and I'm sorry if I sound like some demanding douche

The other thing that bugs: temple swords. Mechanically identical to a longsword. So why not just call it a variety of longsword, and make the monk proficient with the longsword? Why not just call the butterfly sword a shortsword and let the monk flurry with it?

Well there are some differences in technique and design (at least more then between Quaterstaff and Bo) which I guess would justify to have one count as Monk weapon while the other doesn't. Also it just feels better to have the official Butterfly-/Temple-/Nine Ring-/Seven-Branched Sword from the rules :)

It would also make sense if they where proficient with Longswords, Scimitars and other blade weapons. That doesn't mean they sould be able to Flurry with them but just know how to use them, after all they already know how to use Temple Swords and short swords.

Well both of these options, yours or mine, are quite reasonable and could be hoseruled. I just don't think this would ever be written into the rules since dual-wielding an axe and longsword just wouldn't fit the classic Kung-Fu Monk, the eastern weapons which he can't use would

BECAUSE ANIME, THAT'S F***ING WHY!!

Hey screw you! How did you even know my campaign would be based on Queen's Blade?!

Well this thread is pretty old, but I guess it is better to necro this one then to make a new one right?

It still seems rather silly.

I agree.

1. The weapons from the CRB, typical monk weapons the class is
proficient
with from the start. They are all mentioned in the class description.
Most are exotic and they are pretty much what you'd think a
Eastern/Kung-Fu class would use.
2. The Monk weapons from APG. Three weapons were added with this book.
The brass and the Cestus, both of which fit the classic martial
artist
image of the Monk. Then there was also the Temple Sword, doesn't fit
the classic Monk image as much then most other weapons (IMO) but
nobody ever said that Monks could only use Chinese/Japanese and it's
also the favorite weapon of Sajan.
They all mention the monk being proficient with them in their
descriptions.
3. A whole bunch of Monk weapons was added in UC, all of which can be
found on this list.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons
NONE of them state that the monk automatically knows how to use them.
This seems rather odd considering that they are all classic Kung-Fu
Weapons and none of them are all that different/powerfull which
means getting proficiency would be a total waste of Feats.

This would mean the "Unarmed Figther" can use them all while monks
can't even use the most simple of them, like the Hanbo or Tonfa

Now I would understand if SOME of them would require an extra proficiency, like the Seven-Branched Sword or the Sansetsukon (not that there damage is THAT high) but all of them? really?

You have to spend a feat to learn to use the bo staff (imo the most basic weapon that nearly every martial art teaches) yet the wildly impractical nunchaku comes with the starting proficiencies. I smell a plot hole...

It's pretty silly to have it as an exotic weapon in the first place, especialy when you look at the other weapons on the eastern weapons list. I really don't think a Monk’s Spade is easier to use then a Quaterstaff