Bow Guardian

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Organized Play Member. 678 posts (742 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 9 aliases.


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Verdant Wheel

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Themetricsystem wrote:

You shouldn't equate the lack of balance and lack of editing and playtesting that content in Adventure Paths has been seen/done by the senior development staff to content in a new Hardcover rulebook. The two are nowhere near the same, AP options are only ever really intended to be used within the scope of those adventures and any that MIGHT take place afterward which is, to be honest, almost completely unlikely as very few games continue after PCs are level 12 or so. I'm not sure there is even one AP that has launched that didn't have some broken, super vague, or overly OP/gonzo options and or equipment for it for PF2.

Apples and Oranges.

Lost Omens: Firebrands was not an Adventure Path, and was indeed a hardcover book. It was a Lost Omens setting book rather than a Pathfinder rulebook, so you're right that it's not quite the same thing, but I'd say that it's more like tangerines and clementines than apples and oranges. In any case, it's content that is indeed intended to be used in a variety of campaigns and indeed in Pathfinder Society; last I checked, the Lost Omens-originating leshies were even available without a boon.

Verdant Wheel

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So, this is drawing on experience with other systems, but, generally, at least nowadays, people aren't as concerned with being godly powerful as they are about being hot and badass and effortlessly amazing at everything... And we already had that book. Firebrands allows you to play the most interesting, most impressive, most daringly desirable (and desirably daring), ego-fueled-and-fueling character imaginable, to the point of abilities referencing your mortal enemies leagues-deep in the Darklands somehow being your personal superfans and squeeing over you noticing them.

And that's awesome.

If this class, and it is really just a class, and a Rare playtest one at that, is going to summon problem players, it's a bit late to the party because they're presumably already playing Firebrand Vigilante Celebrities already. Are they? I genuinely don't know. However, I really don't think that this class will do any more than that, though I don't want to disrespect those who have less-than-ideal play situations prone to problem players.

That said, it does feel pretty disrespectful to suggest that the Exemplar is trying to replicate or suggest the Disney version of Maui, of all things. Even the Demiplane version references the actual cultural tradition (or, at least one of them). Nahoa doesn't even look all that much like him; any present visual similarities are, I'm pretty sure, because they're both referencing the same mythologies and cultural contexts.

...

Honestly, I'm expecting more tension around the Animist. There's an element of relinquishing character control in certain abilities that isn't explicitly in the hands of the player (particularly Possession Echo), but I'll have to play that PFS character I'm cooking up first to say for sure.

Verdant Wheel

I... really hope it's not Erastil, but I've got a feeling. I've grown a deep fondness for the grumpy old man with the bow... Thing is, I can also see him, after all the other gods have fought or fled, sitting resolutely on his porch with a longbow 'cross his knees as whatever this apocalypse is comes for the heavenly homestead. "Now. I think we all know what's about to happen, but I won't make it easy. Turn around, now, go back to whatever family you got. We can all go back to our lives."

...On the other hand, I feel like Gorum really, really doesn't want to go out as a pile of peaceable rust at the end of the last war, as is said will happen. Being ripped in half during a proper War of Immortals would suit him far better, I think, and it would explain why there are no caster Exemplars; it's tough to survive being socked sideways by a gobbet of Gorum... It would also, assuming some form of timeline continuity (I reckon Nocticula is in deep cover in SF), explain why he's not declaring holy Square Go against Damoritosh in Starfinder.

Really, if there is any god being killed in this, whoever killed them is presumably going to be challenged by Gorum at least, right? The guy's whole deal is glorious combat, and what's more glorious for a god than killing a godkiller?

Verdant Wheel

Veltharis wrote:
Lurker in Insomnia wrote:
Or... was it Orion who shot at Apollo's chariot and he swung down to see what was up?
My Greek mythology is admittedly weak, but I think that might have been Heracles during one of his twelve labors...

It was indeed Heracles, as far as I recall. Very, very fortunately, the god in question (I forget whether it was Apollo or Helios at this point) took it in good humour.

Verdant Wheel

Invictus Fatum wrote:

I'm going to guess Anamist and Exemplar.

Will also go out on the limb and say Anamist is a divine Wisdom caster and Exemplar has a divine spark and is a light armored melee.

Nah, "Animist" and "Exemplar" only have two vowels each, can't be that.

Verdant Wheel

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Lurker in Insomnia wrote:

"Sunwrecker." Black out the sun for a moment with your combat abilities, get Darkness and Darkvision for a while.

Very Maui sounding. Or... was it Orion who shot at Apollo's chariot and he swung down to see what was up?

Hou-Yi shot down nine of the things. The sun we have, it is said, he spared for one of a few reasons.

Verdant Wheel

David knott 242 wrote:


So does that mean that the old polymorph effect prevents the new one (at least without reverting to "true" form first), or that the new one supersedes the old one? It obviously can't mean that a creature capable of assuming one form can never gain the ability to assume a different one.

There are multiple schools of thought on this afaik for the instantaneous, durationless shifts of the Anadi and Beastkin, though less so the Kitsune where it's very explicit that there is one true form that they are concealing (which would be Counteracted by the curse). My reading is that, generally speaking, such characters can usually be affected by such effects, but can also use Change Shape to try to counteract a given Polymorph effect, though I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work for a curse like lycanthropy as curses can generally only be removed in specific ways.

Verdant Wheel

JiCi wrote:

Here's something worth mentioning:

Core Rulebook pg. 635 wrote:
A target can't be under the effect of more than one polymorph effect at a time.
You cannot have both the spider and wolf shapes. The wolf shape would prevent the use of the spider shape, but NOT vice-versa, because an afflicted lycanthrope WILL feel an urge to shapeshift, regardless of its actual form.

I don't think it's necessarily explicit in the mechanics, but lorewise the spider shape is the natural form, not the humanoid, so the wolf form would preclude the human form if anything.

Verdant Wheel

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Verzen wrote:
Sy Kerraduess wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

I feel like Rare has to be more than something than just being rare in the mundane sense. Our two uncommon classes are uncommon because they engage in setting material that is designed not to be widespread through Golarion and may clash with certain campaign aesthetics.

So a Rare class should be one that has some quality that makes a GM go "no wait I don't want to have to deal with that in my story" above and beyond the sorts of issues people have with Gunslingers.

Well, now that we know Exemplar is a larger than life hero that can punch the sun, that is certainly something that could clash with certain campaign aesthetics and make some DMs turn up their nose.
Wait - can he seriously punch the sun?

In a metaphysical "Oh, sure, the sun is a big ball of plasma, a quantum-powered fusion reactor, the local manifestation of the Forge of Creation, a portal to the Plane of Fire, Sarenrae's sacred celestial body and some wizard's personal beach resort, but it's also a shining disc in the sky. I can punch the shining disc." sort of way, I would assume.

Verdant Wheel

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I am hugely excited about this. Bombastic divine powers and ghost friends galore. Absolutely fabulous.

Verdant Wheel

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Absolutely lovely! Timely too, as I'm hopefully just about to run an Ustalav campaign. I shall be sharing these insights with my players...

I also like the past/present/future element as a way to reinterpret the alignment focus for Remaster characters. I was halfway to reworking every single card into a position on the River of Souls or role in Ustalav/Pharasmin tradition. Paladin as the Priest of Hammers, Plague as the Tragedy of Shields, Marriage as the Birth of Crowns, and so forth. Might still do that, just for fun, and with due respect to the cards.

---

Also, the commitment to respectful use of pronouns is truly heartening. I needed to see a little of that, thank you.

Verdant Wheel

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If the curse were to interface with an Anadi's ancestral shape-changing magic... wouldn't it be messing with their power to turn into a human? What does the bestial, horror movie super-wolf form of a human look like?

supernatural identity theft tangent:
No silly Neanderthalesque stereotypes here, why not go the other way? Sharpen up the angles, pointy skull and pointier teeth, long, terrible, dextrous limbs good for chucking rocks and gouging eyes, terrifyingly clever, tricksy, and truly relentless on the hunt. Almost vampiresque in their predatory grace. Some sort of bonus to improvised weapons instead of an unarmed strike, perhaps, and a massive bonus to deception and the will to use it... Suddenly, your Anadi friend, whom you've locked in a cage, is begging for you to release them. Invoking all of your close moments, the dreams you know them to have, the laughs you've shared.

Any Anadi would recognise it. They're shapeshifters. They know their own.

But you don't know that this is a perversion. You don't know that this strange, too-familiar form is what a werehuman looks like.

And maybe you get talking.

And maybe you get too close.

And, just maybe... Maybe this hypothetical has gone far enough. I've already given myself the heebie-jeebies.

...Saying that, I also super like the idea of a big scary horror spider. Just thought it might be cool to explore the space of the human side being the wereform, hitting the uncanny valley a little when everyone expects a scary spider, so long as your group is okay with it.

Verdant Wheel

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If a creature is on a different plane, or otherwise Elsewhere, and you go, "hey, come here" and it appears next to you, you have summoned it to this plane. Or, rather, that's what I usually mean when I refer to summoning, particularly in the context of a fantastical role-playing game.

If you have a permanent life-bond with a very specific creature on a different plane that allows you to empower and rely on that creature, to the extent that going "hey, come here" and fighting alongside that creature becomes the main thing that makes you special, I would be prepared to argue that that qualifies you for the title of Summoner. Eragon isn't disqualified from the title of Dragon Rider just because he only typically rides the one.

However, yes, if you are used to "summoner" meaning, in an RPG context, that you can create pawns on the battlefield and chuck them at your problems without worrying too much about your "summons"' personal experiences, then, yes, the PF2 Summoner doesn't lean into that enough, even if it's better at it than most other characters. For me, that's simply not necessary to be called a summoner; I'd call that a conjurer first, because you're conjuring a facsimile of a creature from magic rather than really summoning a living, breathing creature from Somewhere Else. However, it absolutely makes sense that you think the class misnamed if that's your class fantasy.

And, yes, if you require that the descriptive name of the class matches up with a mechanical trait and its associated effects, or at least to have the word be a little bit more peppered about the class description even if it means re-clarifying that trait, the Summoner doesn't fit that either. I don't need that, and that doesn't make me delusional, but it's fair enough if that feels misnamed to anyone. I doubt the precise mechanics of this class were front-of-mind when the "Summoned" trait was being designed back at launch, so there is a perhaps misleading gap in the language there.

Ultimately, most of the disagreement on this point in particular seems to be a simple difference of opinion being misunderstood as, well, misunderstanding. Which isn't much fun for anyone. It's certainly less fun than the great clash of TTRPG philosophies going on in the other half of this thread, but I can't really talk about that until I finally get some proper play experience with this system in particular... Except to say that Easl's most recent post on the matter is fantastic.

Now. Back to the hibernation.

...

(As if. I know for a fact that I'll be active during the playtest, at least until I try to organise taking part and my health gives out again. Someone softly chide me if I don't join PFS this time; I got so close with the Kineticist.)

Verdant Wheel

Um. Well. I think you'll know where this is going. Spiritual weapon lets you use your Deity's Weapon's damage type; for instance, a Cleric of Tlehar would be able to use Bludgeoning or Piercing damage for attacks with a Spiritual Morningstar. Laudinmio's divine weapon is, because they're just incredibly cool, the "Alchemical Bomb". Obviously, there's no splash or anything because it's just the damage that's relevant and the spell's pretty clear about nothing else applying, but would you really be able to use Spiritual Alchemist's Fire to do fire damage? Or Spiritual Bottled Lightning to shock your foes?

The RAW answer seems, to me, a little potent, and I'd suspect that the RAI might be "ah, shoot, missed one", but I'm also interested in how GMs would rule this balance-wise. Is it fair enough to let a player have a spell this damage-diverse that can apply Strike triggers? Should a player decide which bomb Laudinmio allows them to use for this spell, and they can retrain it in downtime?

(For reference: "The weapon's Strikes are melee spell attacks. [...] You can deal damage of the type normally dealt by the weapon instead of force damage (or any of the available damage types for a versatile weapon). [...] Despite making a spell attack, the spiritual weapon is a weapon for purposes of triggers, resistances, and so forth.")

Verdant Wheel

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I really like Rad Teen Yoon.

I also really like these story updates! It's nice how this and her old MtI really fill in one another's gaps.

Is the implication that she's never really adventured in the Inner Sea, or was it a sort of absurdly-out-of-her-way Odyssey-style detour? Either way, I like the new focus on the Tien side of the world rather than coming up with a reason for her to journey her way west via the icy north; it really helps the whole place feel like a cohesive fantasy world, which is a huge advantage of having a planet-focused setting. Plus, it gives her that looovely character moment. Flame On, Yoon!

I was sorry to see her inexplicable-yet-storyful icepuck stick go, though it clearly doesn't fit her new design, which is, as said, rad, so it's no great loss. So happy to see Gom-Gom still here, even if he's not quite as talkative; I'll still hold that detail about him being the first to accept her real name close to my heart.

Also? I can see that Intimidation bonus well, and I love it.

...From pint-sized packrat to pyro-punk badass! Gah! So cool!

Verdant Wheel

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Awesome to see! Thank you, all of you!

Also, I love your work on the Vlaka, Erin. Their expanded lore was an instant favourite and something I was super excited to see!

Verdant Wheel

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An interesting thing one might do to keep the range while boosting damage could be adding the Volley trait, representing that the element of Air is all about building up speed and power over distance, either directly at long range or by whirling in melee. Mechanically, this would mean that you have a dead zone or "air gap" between your ranged and melee abilities, which might be interesting to play with.

Verdant Wheel

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Xenocrat wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
overflow becomes less of an issue at level 6 with cycling blast
How so?
I think people miss the impulse trait on it and what that means.

To clarify for those that did indeed miss it, it means that it can't be used without a Gathered Element. Cycling Blast is a switching tool, not an action economy enhancer for Overflow actions.

Verdant Wheel

Gathered Elements, listen again to our Legend of the Kineticist...

Yeah, so, Bionicle. Bionicle is my answer to this question. The class goes a lot of the way there tbh, though it's more focused on elements-as-a-main-attack than most Toa are; I'd definitely want to flavour my handwraps as a "tool" of sorts that I "draw" when I Gather my Element with Elemental Weapon. Being reflavoured handwraps, the "tool" would have to be useless as a weapon otherwise, which works rather well with the description of Tahu's sword ("Useless hunk of metal" as he says) before he envelops it in fire during the first chapter of Tale of the Toa.

Verdant Wheel

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I'm with you on that one. I'd really like a wee bit more focus on the elemental blast not necessarily in damage but in weapon traits and other cool combat bonuses.

Verdant Wheel

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Xenocrat wrote:
siegfriedliner wrote:
Honestly I would like to see a quick gather(like quick draw) action that gathers and kinetic blasts in 1 action.
May I introduce you to Cyclic Blast.

Cyclic Blast can't be used after an Overflow action as it has the Impulse trait, so would not be useful to solve the problem that people are having with the action economy. It's a free attack for switching element, not a solution to Gathering anew.

Verdant Wheel

Being able to blast without gathering would be nice, yeah. You're drawing the element out at speed so you can't really refine it for anything else, but it means that you don't lose your main weapon every time you use an Overflow Impulse. It's not really a solution for Elemental Weapon, but there are interesting places that it could go if the Elemental Blast is just a Strike you could do.

I would assume that Elemental Blast would still require Gather for Multiclass Kineticists if that were the case, but obviously that's wild speculation at this point.

Verdant Wheel

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the first page of the playtest, bold mine wrote:
Anything can change based on the results of the playtest! These are early iterations of the new class; some abilities might be a bit extreme or stretch some assumptions of the game, and the best way to find out if we’ve gone too far (or in the wrong direction) is for us to deliver a class into your hands. We don’t expect to release any changes to these classes during the playtest itself, only in the final version of the book.

Verdant Wheel

GrayDeath666 wrote:
Also Elemental Weapon doesn't say a level one weapon, if you can take later and gain a much higher level bomb.

Wh- it doesn't?? *checks wording* You're totally right, though it surely can't be intended.

Verdant Wheel

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YuriP wrote:

Even Inventor and Investigator cannot benefit from MC with the Kineticist.

Due the Subordinate Actions restriction Devise a Stratagem don't work because "If you Strike the chosen creature later this round, you must use the result of the roll you made to Devise a Stratagem for your Strike's attack roll instead of rolling. You make this substitution only for the first Strike you make against the creature this round, not any subsequent attacks." as Elemental Blast isn't a pure Strike, Devise a Stratagem cannot be applied to it too.
Same for Inventors "Your gizmos go into a state of incredible efficiency called critical overdrive, adding great power to your attacks. Your Strikes deal additional damage equal to your Intelligence modifier for 1 minute. After the Overdrive ends, your gizmos become unusable as they cool down or reset, and you can't use Overdrive for 1 minute.
Magus' spellstrike doesn't apply too: "You channel a spell into a punch or sword thrust to deliver a combined attack. You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell don't occur immediately but are imbued into your attack instead. Make a melee Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack. Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed the Spellstrike. The infusion of spell energy grants your Strike the arcane trait, making it magical." and even Arcane Cascade works because the Impulses aren't spells.
Ranger cannot benefit from many feat but Flurry Ranged reduced MAP and Precision Damage can (precision Ranger could benefit even from Spell Attacks).
Thaumaturge also don't benefit Elemental Blast due Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis only applies to unarmed and weapon Strikes, Implement's Empowerment also only works with...

I understand your point, and you're right about Spellstrike, but a subordinate Strike is still a Strike. The overall Action you're taking isn't a Strike, so nothing triggers off that overall Action and it can't be used when another ability says "do a Strike" (as with Spellstrike), but the subordinate Strike still activates any abilities that apply to Strikes (such as Rage, which doesn't care whether or not your Strike happens as part of another action).

Your interpretation would imply that, for instance, Barbarians don't get Rage damage on the subordinate Strike from Attack of Opportunity, which makes Giants cry. It'd also mean that Runes like Flaming ("an additional 1d6 fire damage on a successful Strike") wouldn't apply on the subordinate Strike from Retributive Strike, which would make Paladins cry. That seems unlikely.

Verdant Wheel

Kekkres wrote:
impulses are also concentrate so rage is off the table

Darn. That's a good point. Elemental Weapon only for Barbs, then.

Verdant Wheel

aobst128 wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
the problem is a kinetic blast is not a "strike" so it does not intigrate into most martial classes unique mechanics at all

It includes a strike as a subordinate action, which means that it works alright with a fair few of them. Magus and Swash are probably bad ideas as only the non-nova half of their kit works, but here's the list as best I can tell:

Barbarian's Rage: Yes (melee only)
Champion's Reaction: No
Fighter's Accuracy/Feat Actions: Yes/No
Gunslinger: N/A
Inventor's Overdrive: Yes (especially Armor Innovation for Offensive Boost as unarmed bonuses explicitly work with Elemental Blast)
Investigator's Devise a Stratagem: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Magus' Arcane Cascade/Spellstrike: Yes/No (melee only)
Monk's Flurry of Blows: No
Ranger's Hunter's Edge: Yes (but the feats often don't)
Rogue's Sneak Attack: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Swashbuckler's Precise Strike/Finishers/Riposte: Yes/No/No (melee finesse/agile only)
Thaumaturge's Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis/Implement's Empowerement: Yes*/Yes*/Yes

Many class features so say "weapon or unarmed strikes" which blasts are neither. It's something you never used to notice until now. Rogues and investigators are off the table. I think it leaves just barbarians, rangers, and inventors that can use their class features with blasts. Although, inventors can't apply offensive boost to blasts, only overdrive.

I did notice this, actually. Per Elemental Blast, any damage bonus which applies to Unarmed Strikes also applies to blasts, so Rogues certainly still work. They still don't count as Unarmed Strikes (so Thaumaturge arguably doesn't function due to different wording on the weaknesses you can apply), but everything else I've mentioned should. Including the Armor Inventor's Offensive Boost.

The Investigator... *checks wording*, hm, actually, the Investigator only works if you consider substituting your Intelligence as a bonus applied to unarmed attacks, which I honestly would as you are just changing the bonus applied from Dex/Str to Int. That said, it's a little more arguable than I had initially presented, and "abilities that work with unarmed strikes" would probably be better wording for Elemental Blast if that is the intent.

Verdant Wheel

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Thaago wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

A strength-focus is suggested by the Earth element, but it also suggests an up-close style of play unsupported by the armour options if you don't still pump Dex. This means that your character likely has to end up with poor-to-average Mental scores unless you dump your Class DC and HP.

I find the chance for a PC to have access to the Brutal trait so rad that I'm definitely going to be playing a Geokineticist and hurling rocks around like Pohatu, but I'd like to be at least a little durable when doing so.

While I really want the class to get medium armor built in, characters can after a few levels get both medium and heavy armor. Needing to wait levels for AC is not great for survival, but Str based characters without high dex don't sacrifice ranged attacks, so you can have a switch hitter with "full" accuracy in both without needing to pump both stats.

That's a very good point, though it seems weird for a clearly signposted built-in synergy to require an out-of-class feat.

Verdant Wheel

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Kekkres wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

I wonder if that's not intentional.

To once again reference the obvious touchstone, and apologies if these names mean nothing to you, Toph and Azula may be full Kineticists with all the varied abilities so implied, but Zuko (who relies mostly on martial skill combined with elemental blasting) could be some sort of Rogue with a Kineticist Dedication.

I think I'd like that, actually. A Geo-Investigator who lines up his rock-shots like Bolin would be rad (and work really, really well with a firearm Elemental Weapon), and a sneak-attacking PyRogue assassin who uses Desert Shimmer as an in-combat stealth tool would be really fun too.

the problem is a kinetic blast is not a "strike" so it does not intigrate into most martial classes unique mechanics at all

It includes a strike as a subordinate action, which means that it works alright with a fair few of them. Magus and Swash are probably bad ideas as only the non-nova half of their kit works, but here's the list as best I can tell:

Barbarian's Rage: Yes (melee only)
Champion's Reaction: No
Fighter's Accuracy/Feat Actions: Yes/No
Gunslinger: N/A
Inventor's Overdrive: Yes (especially Armor Innovation for Offensive Boost as unarmed bonuses explicitly work with Elemental Blast)
Investigator's Devise a Stratagem: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Magus' Arcane Cascade/Spellstrike: Yes/No (melee only)
Monk's Flurry of Blows: No
Ranger's Hunter's Edge: Yes (but the feats often don't)
Rogue's Sneak Attack: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Swashbuckler's Precise Strike/Finishers/Riposte: Yes/No/No (melee finesse/agile only)
Thaumaturge's Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis/Implement's Empowerement: Yes*/Yes*/Yes (*assuming that the weakness is ruled as a bonus to your unarmed strike; arguably RAW no)

Every single No answer is also allowed by Elemental Weapon with a few more caveats, including some of the Gunslinger's reload actions.

Verdant Wheel

Guntermench wrote:
It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

I wonder if that's not intentional.

To once again reference the obvious touchstone, and apologies if these names mean nothing to you, Toph and Azula may be full Kineticists with all the varied abilities so implied, but Zuko (who relies mostly on martial skill combined with elemental blasting) could be some sort of Rogue with a Kineticist Dedication.

I think I'd like that, actually. A Geo-Investigator who lines up his rock-shots like Bolin would be rad (and work really, really well with a firearm Elemental Weapon), and a sneak-attacking PyRogue assassin who uses Desert Shimmer as an in-combat stealth tool would be really fun too.

Verdant Wheel

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A strength-focus is suggested by the Earth element, but it also suggests an up-close style of play unsupported by the armour options if you don't still pump Dex. This means that your character likely has to end up with poor-to-average Mental scores unless you dump your Class DC and HP.

I find the chance for a PC to have access to the Brutal trait so rad that I'm definitely going to be playing a Geokineticist and hurling rocks around like Pohatu, but I'd like to be at least a little durable when doing so.

Verdant Wheel

Verzen wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
I got all excited thinking about this but, unfortunately, the element dissipates as soon as you throw the weapon so bombs are as dead an option as darts. Nothing really changes if they disallow it, though it may be good to future-proof it against consumable alchemical melee weapons if they ever do that.

I read it as the element is spent as in you need to gather power again. Not that you can't do it

Hmm... assuming that your reading is right, which would be cool (and should be clarified), that could be very fun. Not sure that it would be powerful given that it'd essentially be a regular attack with the Overflow trait, but a Level 1 Bomb that scales not with its own item level but with Handwraps would be an interesting option to be able to chuck out.

Assuming that Elemental Weapon scales with Handwraps, of course, which seems like a foregone conclusion.

Verdant Wheel

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Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

My group and I were discussing about this topic and we came across a solution, you can have an element gathered with gather element which uses your inner gate and use the gather option from adapt element to gather another element in your free hand since it doesn't use your inner gate as it says:

Gather (any element) You Gather the Element, drawing it from the environment instead of from your inner gate.

As a master I would rule you can do this since you are using two different sources for each element. So you can have an elemental weapon in one hand and use the other hand to use ranged blast attacks.

Hm... You're still Gathering the Element as a subordinate action to Adapt Element, so all the rules of that action still apply even if it has a different source. It's a fun houserule but it doesn't work per the text unfortunately.

All this talk of Elements and Masters is making me very excited to play some sort of Automaton Kineticist...

If that'd be the case, why would the designers use the same effect with two different action economy features? It is pointless to use gather with adapt element which spends 2 of your actions vs using gather element that is a 1 action feature with no using limit, moreover both features have the manipulate trait which means they trigger AOO.

Bad or rushed design or intentional? I wish I knew.

My suspicion is that they have thought of this, and that it's because that will be the only way for the Multiclass Kineticist to Gather an Element. That'd make Multiclassing much more about getting the full Blast (which works with a lot of other Martials' damage boosters) without having Overload actions be quite so easy to access. Just my suspicion, and I admit that that may be partially because I really really want that to be the case.

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I'd love to play a Tiefling Fire/Earth Dual Gate with a focus not on Elemental magma but on Hellish brimstone, ideally with some Acidic sulphur and Poisonous smoke abilities if that's possible. Would also work as a Reaction Vanguard in Starfinder, but I'd really like to do it in this system because Tieflings have so many more options.

Having an actual gate to Hell in one's soul would also offer some delicious roleplaying opportunities, because that makes the usual Tiefling struggle way more intense and in-the-room, if that makes sense. I'd be trying to be a good person, and drawing on the literal powers of Hell to do so. Is using my only applicable skill an Evil action? Am I worsening the world in ways I cannot understand by using the only hammer in the box to fight all these nails? Obviously, one would hope that the answer is "no" or at least "yes, but there are ways not to", but I'd be comfortable leaving that up to the GM to surprise me with.

Perhaps being a Tiefling would be the result of such a gate rather than its cause, and my character has watched their body warp and shift under the Hellish influence of their own power... We have options!

To venture a touch beyond reflavouring, I'd also ask the GM if we could just switch that pesky "Primal" trait over to "Divine", but that's a minor detail that wouldn't hugely impact the character overall either way.

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Playing against type can be fun on its own and it's good not to place barriers against that, but such a restriction would also remove some very thematic choices from the game. For instance, in PF1 a character I very nearly got the chance to play was a seemingly by-the-book Oread Geokineticist who saw their elemental origin as the manifestation of the dry lethality of the desert, the plan being that they would later discover that they had an Oasis within them that granted them the life-bringing powers of Hydrokinesis and the Phytokinesis.

Doing that in PF2 would require a bit of retraining, of course, but I like that the concept is still possible. I may even start them out as a Water/Wood Oread, and have that confusion be central to the character from the get-go.

I do like the idea of a sort of spiritual adoption element of becoming a Kineticist, so you can play into your element with both class and ancestry feats, but I'm not sure how likely that is.

Verdant Wheel

I got all excited thinking about this but, unfortunately, the element dissipates as soon as you throw the weapon so bombs are as dead an option as darts. Nothing really changes if they disallow it, though it may be good to future-proof it against consumable alchemical melee weapons if they ever do that.

Verdant Wheel

I can't really irl at the moment so your guess is as good as mine, though I very much intend to do so. If anyone's running anything online do let me know!

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Honestly, I'm surprised that we don't have the Fire healing feat already given that the Inventor got away with this beautiful Sarenite nonsense. Burning out the sickness is a big thematic element of this setting in a lot of places so it'd be cool (or, y'know, the inverse) for the Kineticist to have its own interesting take on the concept.

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I feel like the line will be in different places for different people. Elemental healing I'm totally fine with; good air does wonders, after all, and some good old-fashioned mud never did anybody any harm (water is also classically the element of healing in the media touchstones I'm familiar with). But things like Veil of Mists... I've no trouble with mist-based illusionry in general; I think that and more miragey effects from Fire are a good thing, but Veil of Mists is a little too specific an illusion for that to feel right to me.

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aobst128 wrote:
keftiu wrote:

I think the Feat’s purpose is to let other classes get a very fun new toy when they take the Kineticist Multiclass :p

This is only partly a joke - I love the idea of spending two Feats on a Monk to get a flaming weapon I can summon at will, and if they implement more elemental damage types in the final class, then even better.

Some drifters would definitely like infinite ammo and a propulsive ranged option. But yeah, since it'll likely share runes with your handwraps, it allows characters to effectively dual wield with one hand. Have a d8 weapon and follow up with an agile blast or vice versa.

The Air Blast would, hilariously, add the benefits of an Air Repeater on top of your regular pistol what with the d4 Agile. Except with great range and a cool new ranged damage type that Gunslingers don't get to play with.

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keftiu wrote:

I think the Feat’s purpose is to let other classes get a very fun new toy when they take the Kineticist Multiclass :p

This is only partly a joke - I love the idea of spending two Feats on a Monk to get a flaming weapon I can summon at will, and if they implement more elemental damage types in the final class, then even better.

I was also excited about this for multiclassing, though for the Armor Inventor. If you select your Elemental Weapon as your chosen weapon for abilities like Offensive Boost, you could flavour yourself up a rad plasma-blade to work with your Inventor damage boosters. You even get bonus switch-hitting goodies, because Armor Inventors also get to have Offensive Boost benefit all of their unarmed attacks, which is a bonus that applies to your Elemental Blast if you want an arm-cannon mode for your plasma blade.

Planar Technology, heck yeah.

Of course, that all assumes that the Multiclass gets as its core ability Elemental Blast, which I reckon it will. In fact, I suspect that the basic attack that we have in the playtest will be exactly what the Multiclass Dedication gets you, except that you will only be able to Gather an Element via a limited Adapt Element (which is why the Adapt-to-Gather option is even in the playtest). It probably wouldn't be too far off the Soul Forger Dedication.

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Romão98 wrote:

I saw some comments that make me go "wow". What's the point in reducing the Kneticist's utility to make it a Blaster-type?

If you reduce the Kneticist's versatility in manipulating the elements just so he can fireball out of his hands, why not play a spellcaster then? (There are many options available to support this style from classes, archetypes, familiars, spells, items... And many more in the upcoming rage of elements i hope).

As much as I genuinely do really like how utility-y and world-affecting the class is, I think that for many people the problem is that there's not quite enough of that versatility for the lack of power and vice versa. Blaster fans don't have enough Blast for their buck and Utility fans don't have much of a fallback option if they pick utility-based Impulses over the basic AoE Impulses. IMO this especially impacts Multi-Element blasters with their fewer feats and more options, though they at least have far more ways to use Adapt Element.

Distilling some of those comments, people seem to want:
(Pseudo-)Martial Damage Booster for Attack Blasters
AND/OR
Increased DC Scaling for DC Blasters
...in addition to the utility we currently have, which is rad but could be seen as akin to reduced spellcasting, which means that we may be due some sort of helpful somethingorother for our basic Blast attacks (like the Magus has) or Impulse cantrip-equivalents (like the Psychic has).

I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with all of that, as I've not playtested it yet, but I think it's a lot deeper than people just wanting to replace all the cool toys with Moar Blast. I do agree, however, that it would be best not to expect Full-Martial DPS if we want the utility to stay, which I certainly do.

Myself, I'd rather an emphasis on cool weapon traits and abilities on the Blast than raw damage, but those can switch in quite easily with damage increases so that may be possible to work in alongside number-go-big options.

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Tunu40 wrote:
Errenor wrote:
No they can't: 'Choose a non-magical portion of an element you can channel'

Oh geez, I missed that line.

Then what's the point of Adapt Element to Gather an Element if I can just choose my own Inner Gate?

I think it should really be meant to gain access to other Elemental Blasts.

It doesn't step on other Gates toes because your access to Impulse feats is based on what elements you chose with your Gate.

Unless I'm missing something here?

Adapt into Gather... It is quite strange. It seems to be for situations in which you cannot access your Gate for some reason?

I mean, it's way more thematic for certain elements if you don't like too much conjuration in your Earthbending, but in-combat it does seem strictly worse.

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Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

My group and I were discussing about this topic and we came across a solution, you can have an element gathered with gather element which uses your inner gate and use the gather option from adapt element to gather another element in your free hand since it doesn't use your inner gate as it says:

Gather (any element) You Gather the Element, drawing it from the environment instead of from your inner gate.

As a master I would rule you can do this since you are using two different sources for each element. So you can have an elemental weapon in one hand and use the other hand to use ranged blast attacks.

Hm... You're still Gathering the Element as a subordinate action to Adapt Element, so all the rules of that action still apply even if it has a different source. It's a fun houserule but it doesn't work per the text unfortunately.

All this talk of Elements and Masters is making me very excited to play some sort of Automaton Kineticist...

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Unicore wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

Can folk upthread stop the name-calling and personal attacks and use of the word 'gaslighting' in a totally inappropriate context? We have the privilege of participating in the creation of fun things. Let's not ruin that for ourselves or for the designers.

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Unicore wrote:
A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

Gather Element wrote:
You can have only one element gathered at a time, and Gathering an Element again causes any element you’ve already gathered to dissipate.
That said, nothing you mentioned has the Overflow trait so you can still do all of that with just Air Blasts. Flurry of gusts!
Do you need to keep air gathered to keep flying? Isn't the duration just 10 minutes? So once you are flying, I guess you can barrage blast and then cycle blast every other round?

Oh yeah that totally works, I thought you meant literally having one Element Gathered in each hand.

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Can folk upthread stop the name-calling and personal attacks and use of the word 'gaslighting' in a totally inappropriate context? We have the privilege of participating in the creation of fun things. Let's not ruin that for ourselves or for the designers.

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Unicore wrote:
A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

Gather Element wrote:
You can have only one element gathered at a time, and Gathering an Element again causes any element you’ve already gathered to dissipate.

That said, nothing you mentioned has the Overflow trait so you can still do all of that with just Air Blasts. Flurry of gusts!

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Is your Elemental Hand Crossbow/Pistol/Air Repeater loaded already when you Gather an Element? The word "reload" is used as if it is, and this could create confusion since Cycle Elements is presumably not meant to immediately refresh a whole Capacity magazine.

This isn't so much a rules question as I think I'm pretty clear on the answer, but it might be helpful to make it obvious that you have to load your weapon as-normal, as much as that sucks for anyone who started the fight without a pre-Gathered Element.

Verdant Wheel

Is your Elemental Hand Crossbow/Pistol/Air Repeater loaded already when you Gather an Element? The word "reload" is used as if it is, and this could create confusion since Cycle Elements is presumably not meant to immediately refresh a whole Capacity magazine.

This isn't so much a rules question as I think I'm pretty clear on the answer, but it might be helpful to make it obvious that you have to load your weapon as-normal, as much as that sucks for anyone who started the fight without a pre-Gathered Element.

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Obviously haven't played this new Kineticist yet, but in theory this hits a lot of the notes I was hoping for.

I especially like:
All-day martial blasts with trait differentiation
Yoon's art
Elemental Weapon
Playing with the action economy and feat system
Yoon's letter
Distinct-feeling Impulse lists for each element, including different healing powers
Built-in utility
Gom-Gom

Obviously there are always going to be quibbles (I'd like blasts to see a little more emphasis myself) but these are things I am very excited to see stay! Especially Gom-Gom!

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cheezeofjustice wrote:

Also worth noting that the current phrasing of the ability and the kit allows you to pick a one handed weapon with the two hand trait and 2 hand it after summoning it.

Also Flexible Blast might combo with it since you can use the weapon for Blasts. If this means you do the the weapon damage with the blast action (which I think you do?) it would mean you can finesse those things. Or use STR with guns. As long as you are using the Blast action with them.

Nice catch with the two-hand trait!

Hm, I had read it as you having the option to either Blast (using Blast rules) or Strike (using Strike rules but presumably still your Handwraps so it isn't Too-Bad-To-Be-True). So the Blast would have its usual damage dice and add-on abilities, while the Strike would be using weapon dice and traits.

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