Hey all.
So my wife and I will be playing through First steps at gen-con as we need some new low level characters.
Anyway she wants to do an Elven Ranger (Archery) and i wanted something that fit the same theme.
So then I remembered the ARG and the Treesinger. I assumed my problems were over.
I was wrong.
The question is "what am I missing?" or does this archtype just drip with flavor and yet kinda suck?
Plant companion? awesome.
At 4th level you can ride around in a walking tree. sweet.
But for some reason they can never wear armor, fair nuff.
Nor wield weapons, got ya, i can live with that.
But also none of the druid "awesome companion buff spells" work on it as well, it is not an animal.
Also your Wild shape now is rather crap.
For a list of what you can turn into see the thread Here
I realise that these are not THAT bad, but on the other hand, they kind of are.
What do people think?
Is it that bad?
What am I missing?
Im not seeing anything about not wearing armor or using weapons. But i may have missed it.
There is no prohibition against armour and weapons. If there is, it might be in the fluff in the ARG but not in the stats.
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Well I don't think plant empathy is likely to come up too much, but you throw a serious monkey wrench into any mod that happens out doors just by being a druid.
I don't really see this archetype being any kind of problem to play. Should be enjoyable.
If your worried about buffing it, you might want to re-read the line about share spells.
Share Spells (Ex)
The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal).
So your just fine casting whatever spells you like on it.
Honestly just make sure you sit down and read everything for druids, and everything for the Handle Animal skill, which I'm assuming you'll still need to use to command your plant.
There is no prohibition against armour and weapons. If there is, it might be in the fluff in the ARG but not in the stats.
Plant companions cannot gain armor or weapon proficiency feats, even as they advance in hit dice, and cannot use manufactured weapons at all unless their description says otherwise.
And while yes share spells does work, things like animal growth do not as neither it nor I am an animal.
Oh, the companion. The treesinger can use armour and weapons fine.
Oh, the companion. The treesinger can use armour and weapons fine.
Yes upon reading what I posted again I see that the confusion was from me not being clear.
I was saying that the companion can use neither armor nor weapons.
Given normal Animal companions in PFS cannot use weapons, im not sure how much thats different from normal AC rules. Ive never actually seen anyone use barding in a game though i dont play PFS my experience in our current game is the rangers cat has one of the best AC's in the party.
Basically, Its not really much of a drawback in my opinion. But maybe people normally have plate barding clad bears or tigers?
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Maybe not plate barding, but magical leather barding is reasonably cheap and you can add some interesting effects to help with your animal companions survivability. Mithril Chain Shirt Barding (I know, odd but there you go) isn't horrifically expensive and is a constant +4 armour bonus with now armour check penalty, so any animal could wear it if it was properly sized.
Also Thefurmonger, Animal Growth and similar spells shouldn't be any problem on a plant companion. There are two sentences there. For the purposes of your druid spells, your companion ignores type restriction, and you can even cast self-only buff spells on it.
"At 4th level, a treesinger gains the ability to wild shape. This ability functions at her actual druid level. A treesinger cannot use wild shape to adopt an animal or elemental form."
You can't turn into an elemental?? That's the one plus over 3.5 for the Druid. What a trap of a class feature. My Druid's been flying around in air elemental form for so long he cannot remember what it's like NOT to fly. Unless he's burrowing underground as an earth elemental or swimming as a water elemental of course.
"Is it that bad? -Yes, and then some.
What am I missing?" -I think you see the limitations pretty clearly.
Wildshape - Yes, you loose the ability to become an elemental and animals, but it scales up faster, you get the Large and Tiny forms faster.
It's also not as bad when you realize that the companions are new plant creatures whose shape you can take. I personally grew fond of gaining 60ft flight speed as a Puffball or turn into a medium treant and keep my gear. (Transmutation polymorph mentions that any kept gear is resized to fit new size, and a treant is a humanoid shaped plant.)
Personally I wasn't too keen on plant shapes either, the movement speed and traits are only so so, but the bonuses are pretty nice if you want some defence, a large plant shape gives +2str, +2con, +2 nat ac.
Another upside is stealth. If someone chases you and you change into the crawling vine companion and just hug a bush, you're safe for a while, no one gonna notice a plant unless it's really standing out.
If you have a chance to keep a bird pet, you can send it flying while you change into a plant. Most will assume that the druid changed into a bird and flew away. With Natural Spell feat, throw some spells for mayhem. Throw up entangle and you have perfect spot to sneak trough. Etc.
Share Spells (Ex)
The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself.A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal).
Seems you can apply enlarge animal to a plant companion.
Companion - A treant companion should be able to manipulate objects, and deals double damage to objects. You need a wall torn down or a door, send him knocking. Need someone to carry your backpacks, he's your buddy.
Want a super spy, have a crawling vine companion sit and watch an area for you, then tell you what went on.
Not all archetypes were created equal, nor meant to.
While this is without a doubt true, I would like to think that they are at least close.
I suppose what i am missing is the "Up side"
the flavor is there. I'm all over it.
I get to play a druid that at level 4 can sit in a tree while it walks around and hits stuff. awesome.
I was planning on a battlefield control style druid.
And yes summoning and BFC spells still work fine as a vine, in a tree.
I assume Natural spell is still the way to go.
I suppose the real issue is I am somewhat lost here.
I know how to build a normal Druid and yet this on I got nothin.
Any help would be great.
And I will be going Treant companion. 20 PB, PFS legal build
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Not all archetypes were created equal, nor meant to.While this is without a doubt true, I would like to think that they are at least close.
I suppose what i am missing is the "Up side"
the flavor is there. I'm all over it.
I get to play a druid that at level 4 can sit in a tree while it walks around and hits stuff. awesome.
I was planning on a battlefield control style druid.
And yes summoning and BFC spells still work fine as a vine, in a tree.
I assume Natural spell is still the way to go.
I suppose the real issue is I am somewhat lost here.
I know how to build a normal Druid and yet this on I got nothin.
Any help would be great.
And I will be going Treant companion. 20 PB, PFS legal build
While I understand what you're talking about with the flavor sort of outweighing the mechanical usefulness, I think you just need to decide what strengths you gain by taking this archetype.
In this case, I would try to figure out spells that normally don't affect plants that would be very useful and flavorful for casting on your plant companion. You could go the Improved Grapple route and cast things like Aspect of the Bear and Enlarge Person on it. Natural Rhythm might be really cool too. Animal Aspect would further improve Grapple checks. There's TONS you could do!
Here's a fun one (though your PFS gamemaster might say no), cast Wood Shape on the treant's branch to turn its slam atack into a slashing or piercing weapon.
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My biggest beef with the treesinger? Plant shape spells provide no movement forms, so burrowing/climbing/swimming plant forms lack the enhanced movement. Treesinger gets stuck in a chamber that fills with water, wild shapes into a shambling mound and drowns. The original CRB polymorph spells could stand to have a tweaking, but that's another topic.
Instead of focusing on what the archetype loses, however, let's look at what is unique about it.
Treesinger may not have the wild shape versatility of the base class, but you do immediately gain access to two forms with reach at 4th level (mangradora and cerebric fungus). If I were playing a melee druid from a race that has a -2 Con modifier, I'd consider reach a very nice benefit. Plant shape I also negates that penalty; unlike beast shape I, it grants a +2 siz bonus to Con for small and medium forms. The attribute mods in general are a little nicer for plant forms, which may mitigate some of the versatility loss.
- Beast Shape
- small - +2 Dex, +1 natural armor
- medium - +2 Str, +2 natural armor
- large - +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 natural armor
- Plant Shape
- small - +2 Con, +2 natural armor
- medium - +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
- large - +4 Str, +2 Con, +4 natural armor
The 8th-level large plant form options are decent, attained at a level where they will see significantly more use in PFS than the base druid's plant form options:
- alraune - 4 slams (1d10) with grab and constrict, 40' base speed
- shambling mound - 2 slams (2d6) with grab and constrict, resist fire and electricity 20 (should be able to swim)
- viper vine - 1 bite (2d6 + 3d6 acid), 4 secondary tentacles (1d6) with grab, constrict and 20' reach, resist acid 20
On a related note: mandragora. It starts out mobile, with three natural attacks. One of the attacks has grab (although small size) and two have reach (nice for the level). At 8th-level, those reach slams are applying a poison that fatigues and confuses (plus, if the initial save fails, only has a 25% chance of being removed per round regardless of the target's Fort save). That's not bad if large size is not optimal for a particular situation.
One final note: a Golarion treesinger who keeps the plant companion instead of purely focusing on casting can take the Green Faith Acolyte feat (ISWG) to make his companion immune to all damage and harmful effects from his spells. That's not too shabby.
My biggest beef with the treesinger? Plant shape spells provide no movement forms, so burrowing/climbing/swimming plant forms lack the enhanced movement. Treesinger gets stuck in a chamber that fills with water, wild shapes into a shambling mound and drowns. The original CRB polymorph spells could stand to have a tweaking, but that's another topic.
Instead of focusing on what the archetype loses, however, let's look at what is unique about it.
Treesinger may not have the wild shape versatility of the base class, but you do immediately gain access to two forms with reach at 4th level (mangradora and cerebric fungus). If I were playing a melee druid from a race that has a -2 Con modifier, I'd consider reach a very nice benefit. Plant shape I also negates that penalty; unlike beast shape I, it grants a +2 siz bonus to Con for small and medium forms. The attribute mods in general are a little nicer for plant forms, which may mitigate some of the versatility loss.
Comparison of most PFS beast shape and plant shape attribute mods:
Beast Shape
small - +2 Dex, +1 natural armor
medium - +2 Str, +2 natural armor
large - +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 natural armorPlant Shape
small - +2 Con, +2 natural armor
medium - +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
large - +4 Str, +2 Con, +4 natural armorThe 8th-level large plant form options are decent, attained at a level where they will see significantly more use in PFS than the base druid's plant form options:
•alraune - 4 slams (1d10) with grab and constrict, 40' base speed
•shambling mound - 2 slams (2d6) with grab and constrict, resist fire and electricity 20 (should be able to swim)
•viper vine - 1 bite (2d6 + 3d6 acid), 4 secondary tentacles (1d6) with grab, constrict and 20' reach, resist acid 20
On a related note: mandragora. It starts out mobile, with three natural attacks. One of the attacks has grab (although small size) and two have reach (nice for the level). At 8th-level, those reach slams are applying a poison that fatigues and confuses (plus, if the initial save fails, only has a 25% chance of being removed per round regardless of the target's Fort save). That's not bad if large size is not optimal for a particular situation.
One final note: a Golarion treesinger who keeps the plant companion instead of purely focusing on casting can take the Green Faith Acolyte feat (ISWG) to make his companion immune to all damage and harmful effects from his spells. That's not too shabby.
Ok, now that is really helpful.
Im still not sure how i want to build it tho.
I was thinking of taking Racial Heritage (Elf) and be a human treesinger.
I use up my bonus feat on racial heritage but i do get a better stat bump (Wis) and dont take the -2 Con.
I was thinking of taking Racial Heritage (Elf) and be a human treesinger.
I don't think you can for PFS. Check out the additional resources link:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Race Guide
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
Even if you took the Racial Heritage feat (available to PFS), you would need to be an elf to have the treesinger archetype available to you.
I would assume that as you cound as an elf in all ways it would be fine...
Off to the PFS boards.
I would assume that as you cound as an elf in all ways it would be fine...
Off to the PFS boards.
Yeah, I hope I'm wrong on that. They may intentionally want the ARG material to be limited expressly to individual races, or it could just be a case of Racial Heritage not being taken into account by the additional resources verbiage.
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well either way,
I ma thinking a Human/Elf treesinger with a treant.
I am trying to decide how green faith acolyte would be good.
It seems great for blasting, but Druids do not excel at that.
Honestly I am not sure WHAT to do with a treesinger.
send in Treant, Treant Smash.
druid sits back and buffs? summons? (I would rather not as it slows down play), goes in melee as a plant to? (past 4th that is), Shoots? realy kinda lost here.
Dear lord do druids have options.....
Post on PFS board is found Here
The feat will not let you take a race restricted class. Only traits and feats are opened up.Ok, now that is really helpful.
Im still not sure how i want to build it tho.
I was thinking of taking Racial Heritage (Elf) and be a human treesinger.
I use up my bonus feat on racial heritage but i do get a better stat bump (Wis) and dont take the -2 Con.
is that a PFS ruling? I ask becuase it looks like the feat allows everything
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Fair enough. while I can't see why this does not work, i trust that there is a ruling i am unaware of. and will go with that.
So back to topic.
How would YOU build a treesinger Elf for PFS with a treant that is good?
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The feat will not let you take a race restricted class. Only traits and feats are opened up.Ok, now that is really helpful.
Im still not sure how i want to build it tho.
I was thinking of taking Racial Heritage (Elf) and be a human treesinger.
I use up my bonus feat on racial heritage but i do get a better stat bump (Wis) and dont take the -2 Con.
You are correct for PFS, as they've specifically said that racial archetypes are only open to members of that race. Period. HOWEVER, it's recently been FAQ'd that for standard Pathfinder games, Racial Heritage qualifies you for racial archetypes.
ah, well that helps. I dont suppose you have a link to the PFS post?
Agin, "No" works but I would dearly love to see it :)
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You are correct for PFS, as they've specifically said that racial archetypes are only open to members of that race. Period. HOWEVER, it's recently been FAQ'd that for standard Pathfinder games, Racial Heritage qualifies you for racial archetypes.
With the explicit FAQ entry, does the prior statement about PFS not allowing still stand? I don't really see a reason to disallow it. It seems to me that having a human burn a feat in order to unlock a choice for racial archetype is reasonable and balanced.
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Here's the relevant quote:ah, well that helps. I dont suppose you have a link to the PFS post?
Agin, "No" works but I would dearly love to see it :)
"Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Race Guide
To create an aasimar, dhampir, fetchling ifrit, kitsune, nagaji, oread, sylph, tengu, tiefling, undine, or wayang character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation.
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
The new alchemist discovery on page 44 is legal for play for characters of all races."
(Emphasis mine)
The quote is on this page: PFS Additional Resources
PFS reserves the right to have their specific rules trump the general rules of Pathfinder RPG, so yes I believe this ruling still stands for PFS play.
I think we are all going back and forth here.
The question is weather or not the feat that lets you count as a race for it in general PFRPG works for PFS or not.
Both sides seem to think it is easy to see. but neither agrees.
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I think we are all going back and forth here.
The question is weather or not the feat that lets you count as a race for it in general PFRPG works for PFS or not.
Both sides seem to think it is easy to see. but neither agrees.
The answer is no. PFS rules say you MUST be the specific race. Period.
so I give a "let's agree to disagree" and you break out the magic shift key of point making?
fair enough.
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so I give a "let's agree to disagree" and you break out the magic shift key of point making?
fair enough.
I mean, I'm not trying to be argumentative here or anything, but I think it's pretty well-established that PFS rules are usually more restrictive than general Pathfinder rules. I think the point of having this specific rule for PFS is to even the playing field and not have tons and tons of people be human with a Racial Heritage feat to get specific racial stuff. Plus, if you allow humans to get any of the racial options, then it makes the race boons much less exciting. So yeah, I think that's why they ruled that Racial Heritage isn't as awesome in PFS as it is in the general game.
Again, definitely not trying to argue here, I'm not one for picking fights on the boards. :-D
well apperently we will not know as the other thread in the PFS area got moved to the rules forum.
mind you this was after most people there seemed to agree that the FAQ worked.
I give up.
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I think we are all going back and forth here.
The question is weather or not the feat that lets you count as a race for it in general PFRPG works for PFS or not.
Both sides seem to think it is easy to see. but neither agrees.
There actually isn't any room for interpretation here. At this moment, PFS does not allow you to use the Racial Heritage feat for that purpose. Period.
Is it possible that in light of the FAQ that they will change their ruling, and do so before Gen-Con? Yes, it is possible. If you feel strongly about it, you should continue to check the official rules, just in case. But I wouldn't count on it, and it isn't accurate to say that there is any question what the official PFS rules are. Because they are very clear. At this moment, if you want to be a Treesinger in PFS, you have to be an elf.
Best Treesinger ever: YouTube Link
Honestly I am not sure WHAT to do with a treesinger.
Turn into a Yellow Musk Creeper and become a zombie lord!
Huh, druids are one of those classes that I just never looked at before (rouge im looking at you... same with the wizard) and elves fall into the same category for races... Elves tend to unnerve little goblins with there hauntly stature, longevity and unnatural grace. Double for druids that are always at odds with goblin firebombers! But this thread sparked my interest in such matters, Time for Research!
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Honestly I am not sure WHAT to do with a treesinger.Turn into a Yellow Musk Creeper and become a zombie lord!
If only "Create Yellow Musk Zombie" was on the list of abilities granted by Plant Shape spells. :-P
Yellow Musk CreeperIf only "Create Yellow Musk Zombie" was on the list of abilities granted by Plant Shape spells. :-P
...dung.
Something else to consider with the treesinger is the feat Animal Soul because if you take the plant companion then you are suddenly immune to all spells that plants are immune to, namely mind effecting spells.