Ive only gone Epic with 3.5 and despite what some of the board posts I think it worked quite well. We took it to level 35 or so and I never saw the game break at all. Granted I have an amazing table top DM but GM_Arbiter youre top notch as well where I dont think balancing will be the issue at all. So maybe using those rules with minor Pathfinder tweaking?
Things that definitely worked were the standard increase in BAB and Saves at every other level for every class or PrC.
Ill review my character, game notes and the Epic level HB this afternoon and see what else comes to mind.
Part of the unbalancing was due to how horrifically bad the epic monsters were. I don't number crunch myself, but a few buddies from other sites do and from what I've seen, its terribad to say the least.
Also, there's no real variety. Take this feat to add +x to this stat is beyond boring. Couple that zero epic class features and you being to realize why those of us in favor of the proposed Mythic Rules for PF want them so badly.
Personally, I *think* we should be alright using the guidelines from the Gamemaster chapter of Core, along with the 3.x feats, though with perhaps some revisions here and there.
I'd like to take levels in Paladin after 20, but a lawful attitude is so not Akor. Unless Arbiter wouldn't mind allowing any good class to take it or has some other homebrew variant for the Paladin, I might just go Fighter. Not sure.
Ive onlyl played epic once and it was 3.5. I had an awsome DM, so that may be why the game went so well. Not sure.
My main question is how do you want to deal with Epic magic, seeing as how that is my bread and butter so to speak?
Are we on the platform that is moving up the tree? Close enough to attack said tree like Darnak is doing?
I thought we were on the platform, but regardless I moved to it.
You are inside a chamber within the 2000+ foot tall tree. There is no "tree" inside the room. The room has reshaped itself into a sphere with a single platform in the center. It is not moving. The walls have ripped open enough to allow demonic faces to appear. The chamber is filling with acid from the "attacks" on the tree, so the platform is the only safe place to stand at the moment.
Well, safe for about 10 minutes or so. At that point, the acid will be over the top of the platform. And the entire chamber remains under a dimensional lock.
No one was on the platform until they said they wanted to be. I don't like moving the PCs or forcing them into a location via narration because it tends to make people feel like they have no control over their characters.
Part of the unbalancing was due to how horrifically bad the epic monsters were. I don't number crunch myself, but a few buddies from other sites do and from what I've seen, its terribad to say the least.
Also, there's no real variety. Take this feat to add +x to this stat is beyond boring. Couple that zero epic class features and you being to realize why those of us in favor of the proposed Mythic Rules for PF want them so badly.
That was much my feeling as well. I tried Epic rules a couple of times and either the PCs utterly demolished creatures several CR above them, or some bizarre ability rendered the creatures immune to everything we did.
I've already seen that high-level Pathfinder characters can be more deadly than their 3rd edition counterparts. Just take a look at our Zen archer. And the inquisitor, while lacking the sheer number of attacks, can literally be ready for almost anything thanks to judgements.
Everyone else is powerful, too, but about as much as I expected. Spellcasters at high level are nuts, so I wasn't surprised by that. I know that Malak has many, many more tricks up his sleeve that haven't even needed to be used yet. And our "tank" monk can pretty much only be hit on a natural 20 so far.
I won't be using the old epic rules to make monsters. Pathfinder has enough vague guidelines that I don't feel that is needed. There already are rules about making the Storm King. I just have to sit down and stat him out.
I've also played in games where people either "capped" at level 20, and then went on to become gestalts as their way of gaining CR, or games where people just used the BAB and Save rules mentioned earlier and ignored the rest.
The recommendations from the Gamesmaster guide say they are good for a few levels. I'm not sure how things will look around level 25, but we can certainly give it a shot.
And Sparel, in answer to your question, if we did something like that you would probably gain spell slots rather than using the seed rules. That always seemed to get exploited to high heaven when I saw it in play.
Seed spells were kind of insane at higher levels. I'd be happy with expanded spell slots (10+) that can be used with metamagic feats. As I don't have but one metamagic feat it would also be nice if I got some of those free as I leveled like a class feature.
It could be more fun to see what I can do with metamagic as opposed to making my own spells from scratch (aka seed spells).
That sounds good to me, honestly, and it would be less work on both our parts. As for more feats, I don't mind the idea of you guys unlocking some bonuses once you hit level 21. We can figure out specifics later, of course.
Sounds good to me. Another idea is the automatic metamagic feat line from the Epic 3.5 book.
Essentially you can automatically add a metamagic feat to a certain number of schools. For example automatic silent spell I makes level 1-3 spells automatically silent without change in level or preperations.
Just a thought.
seed/epic spells were kind of a joke considering the mass of wealth, experience and ritual involved just to create one let alone more than one. Although my table top DM believed in keeping players somewhat broke and what coin we did get was usually invested into the kingdom we started. I played a Necromancer 10/Pale Master 10/ Binder 11/ Anime Mage 3/ Havok Mage 1 and never even got into the epic spells for the reason listed above and quite frankly didnt need them.
There's a really good system out there, known as Fennamerc after the two guys who created it, that I vastly perfer for epic casting.
Basically, you take a base spell, then add in any other effects you might desire via other spells, and modify via seeds, add hoc, etc. There's more to it than that, I think, but that's the basics..
Ex, say you want a Fireball that will raise those killed to fight on your side and immobilize those who survive.
You would take Fireball, add Animate Dead and Hold Monster than modify as needed.
*nods* This adventure is a bit skimpy on treasure, but there is a reward at the end. As far as kingdoms and the like, that's up to you guys to do. Perhaps claim part of the Worldwound. Also, there was a place called Numeria. I hear it's trashed.
Arbiter, what are your thoughts on the scaling Aid Another rules, from I believe Complete Adventurer? Where you can add more than just the +2 if you hit a higher DC, I think lol
I was unaware of such a rule. So far, you guys are doing well on rolls and I really don't need more rules to keep track of. Once I'm home again, I'll update everyone on successes so far with the talking heads.
If 3.5 material is needed, I've got pretty much all of it. Not QUITE all of it, but nearly.
I donated a good portion of my 3.5 material to a local gaming store. They have a side room with old games and books for people to use or reference during gaming days. I haven't been back by in a while thanks to my work schedule, but they seemed to appreciate it.
I'll take a look at the epic book soon to see about making a chart of "epic" results for DCs. I think I would like that better than the multiple success model, since some things are intended to take time. I mean, we already have some crazy die rolls. Might as well get more bang for the buck from them.
For those who don't have the material, the 3.5 system resource document is here.
I never played 3.5 at all. I jumped straight from 2nd edition to Pathfinder. Although playing Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 softened the blow a little.
Looking at some of the Epic stuff, I'm gonna be holding out for those Bracers of Epic Armor +15, Bracers of Relentless Might(Aka belt), and the Periapt of Epic Wisdom.(Aka headband)
The headband is a +12 to Wisdom - Cost 1,440,000g (Baby stuff!)
The Bracers are what they are - cost 2,250,000g (That might hurt the pocketbook.)
Last but not least, the Belt is a +12 to Str(will switch that out for Dex) and Con; Plus you're treated as two catergories larger for purposes of CMD that apply a modifier based on size - Cost... You ready for this?
:)
::would the chaotic one like us better if I randomly blasted him in the face?:: sparel thinks sarcastically.
I just died on this one! Lol!
Just so you know, any attacks once the negations began would have resulted in Malgarius shunting you toward the druid hag immediately. And then it would have attacked all of you each round, probably with the acid rain again or by sucking all the air out of the room so you choke to death.
Well that was a close one! Whew!
^ No kidding! Remind Malak to only lie to demon tree's once. Two times was pushing it.
@ GM_Arbiter - how long would it take to summon a shadow?
Just so you know, any attacks once the negations began would have resulted in Malgarius shunting you toward the druid hag immediately. And then it would have attacked all of you each round, probably with the acid rain again or by sucking all the air out of the room so you choke to death.
Unless he beat my initiative we would have survived at least another 17 min. ;-)
School: evocation [force]
Level: sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, F (a crystal sphere)
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: yes
A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere.
The sphere contains its subject for the spell's duration. The sphere functions as a wall of force, except that it can be negated by dispel magic. A subject inside the sphere can breathe normally.
The sphere cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within.
I need a GM's ruling here:
Combat dosen't offically start till round 5, correct? So I need to wait till then to activate my Judgements? (Not the ruling, lol)
When I do, I plan to cast Greater Lend Judgement, from Ultimate Combat(this is part I need a ruling on)
This allows one ally the use of all of my active Judgements, while letting me benefit from them as well. The lesser verison only allows one, and if I switch, the ally looses the benefit.
The Greater verison makes no mention of what happens if I switch. My personal guess would be he keeps them, as it would still be active and it does say all Judgements.
Also, I have two feats that boost my Judgements both from Ultimate Magic: Favored Judgement, which increases the sacred bonus I get from any Judgement by 1 vs evil outsiders, and Judgement Surge, which allows me, once per day to treat my level as 3 higher for my bonuses to Judgements.
Would an ally under the effect of Greater Lend Judgement get these increases as well??
Ps,
I am literally gidd with excitement here, so much so that I had trouble fallin asleep at first. Been waitin for the end fight so I could bust out all my extra goodies. Having four rounds to buff makes it even more awesome!!!
One, if your judgements are better than normal thanks to feats and such, Allies gain that same benefit when you share the judgement.
Also, greater versions of spells function like the lesser versions, usually. So, The same restrictions as the basic spell apply.
From the srd, This functions as lend judgment, except the ally gains the benefit of all your active judgments.
So, if you switch, your ally loses that judgement. He'll keep the others for the spell duration unless you switch them.
Right, that's my confusion. The normal one is just one Judgement, so if I share say Justice with Thad, and I switch it to Protection it would make sesne he looses Justice, cu z I no longer have that.
The greater verison is all active Judgements. In the above, Protection would be active after the switch. I guess its just the wording that gets me. I would think if they meant just the ones you're benefiting from when you cast the spells, they would say "current".
As I understand it, they gain all the judgements active at the time you cast the spell. Should one of those end for any reason, including because you switched it, they lose that judgement. They don't gain the new judgements unless you cast the spell again. Does
That make more sense?
any ruling on my question above?
^ No kidding! Remind Malak to only lie to demon tree's once. Two times was pushing it.
@ GM_Arbiter - how long would it take to summon a shadow?
Most abilities are a standar action unless otherwise noted. -My 2C
Thanks, I guess I should rephrase it then.
If I summon the shadow how long will it take to arrive?
Since the ability doesn't say anything at all about thinking, let's assume it's a standard action to summon the creature and it appears as soon as you complete that action.
Which is a good deal, since th standard summon is a full-round action.
Sweet! That works for me although since he's not a temporary companion (unless slain) then I'd easily understand if it was a full round action. Malak doesnt have much to do to get ready anyways.
I'm not sure if this will post or not. I haven't been able to log in or post anything since my dinner break last night. I'm at work now, but I'll try to get a break soon to post the room description and perhaps first round of combat.
Is everyone ready with their stats?
Ready to rock.
I'm ready too, I'm about as buffed as I can be!
Indeed I am!
I was a smarty monkey, and wrote up that huge post last nite on Word, emailed it to myself, then copied it from my cell.
Was gonna post this last nite, but couldn't due to the stupid:
Epic items and feats from 3.x pretty much suck, hard. The vast majority of both are just +x to some stat or another. Nothing fun or interesting or exciting.
I would strongly suggest an adaption of Upper_Krust artifacts from his Immortal Handbook, wherein we each would get four artifacts that then get a certain bonus based on our CR, I think.
What's nice about this is it allows a fair amount more as one can add in feats, stat increases, etc.
Of course, even if we don't do this, I say after we wrap up this adventure, we look into more unique items than the crap offered in ELH.
I just recently discovered/had confirmed that you can make magic items above your CL with spells you don't know by adding +5 per missing prerequisite. Well, I knew that, but these particular implications were lost on me until now.
It's harder and expensive and time consuming, but that's got potential. ;-)
Did we heal ourselves up as Arbiter suggested?
As per item creation; Yeah that's a pretty cool deal. That way you can make something that requires a druid spell or somesuch. I've got this cleric in my RL games that's our level and he does all that.
It is quite the handy.
Did we heal ourselves up as Arbiter suggested?
As per item creation; Yeah that's a pretty cool deal. That way you can make something that requires a druid spell or somesuch. I've got this cleric in my RL games that's our level and he does all that.
It is quite the handy.
Yes. just roll off wand of cure light wounds charges and tell me how many you used. 1d8+1
One is all I need. Thanks for the heals! Going to post my attack round now...
Darnak's rolls:
Alright. That's eight. Thanks!
Hey, Monkey and Javell, congrats on joining the Path of the Wicked game. I might have to lurk there to see how things go.
Congrats indeed fellas! That game looks really cool.
Question. I thought only the caster couldnt take any other actions, but other creatures taken could. Is that wrong? If so where does it say that?
School: conjuration (teleportation)
Level: bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3, witch 4, magus 4
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V
Range: long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: no and yes (object)
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired--whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.
Also, Any thoughts on what plane I should take this life eating seed to?
Also, Any thoughts on what plane I should take this life eating seed to?
the Negative Energy one? Unless we'd like to give ole Cyth'V-sug a surprise and drop his friend off for a visit in Hell and le them battle it out.
Also, Any thoughts on what plane I should take this life eating seed to?the Negative Energy one? Unless we'd like to give ole Cyth'V-sug a surprise and drop his friend off for a visit in Hell and le them battle it out.
I'm disinclined to give them another weapon. I think in the short term I'll take it to my plane. I have empty rooms prepared with permanent Prot from evil circles. I can then activate it using my spell prepared and focus it inward. That should suffice long enough for me to call an archangle for council.
Question. I thought only the caster couldnt take any other actions, but other creatures taken could. Is that wrong? If so where does it say that?
** spoiler omitted **
You are correct; only the caster can not take other actions unless they have the appropriate feat. Since Darnak would be the caster of his abundant step ability, he was not able to attack that turn.
If Sparel dd's everyone across the room, everyone else still gets their full actions (after the spell).