[Misfit Studios] The Book of Passion Kickstarter for 3.75E is live!

Sissyl wrote:

Put me up for a snog with the Empress over taking the holy avenger any day. Seriously, it's a whack situation, it will have far-reaching consequences, it ties my character into the world, it makes an NPC more interesting in the campaign. What was the alternative again? A better chance to hit stuff?

Sure, and that sounds great. But on the other hand, a lot of players - I'd be willing to bet the majority - would see it differently: "One is a storytelling option for a campaign that might end soon, and my PC could die anyway which would diminish my investment in that plot-thread, and besides this won't come into play for ages of in-game time. The alternative bumps up my character's chances of survival and ability to contribute to the group by a large amount, and it does it right now."

But I can buy a magic sword if I want, or commission one.

I can't buy my way into the Empress' underclothes. In fact, my attempt to do so may lead to the game ending in a very...tragic...way.

But I can buy a magic sword if I want, or commission one.

Sure, but doing so gives you a mechanical bonus that's devoid of any narrative achievements; it's not a reward from the Empress if you just go buy/commission a sword.

I can't buy my way into the Empress' underclothes. In fact, my attempt to do so may lead to the game ending in a very...tragic...way.

And this flips the situation, since now it's a narrative achievement that's devoid of any mechanical aspect.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the game's narrative and mechanical aspects work best when they intersect, particularly in terms of achievements/rewards/goals/etc. A narrative accomplishment with no mechanical aspect suffers in terms of practical utility. A mechanical accomplishment with no narrative dimension is boring. It's more optimal by far to receive an achievement that has both.

The problem is that it's far easier, to my mind, to put narrative aspects onto a mechanical achievement than vice versa, since narrative exposition doesn't interact with the underpinnings of the game engine, and so doesn't have quite the same disruptive potential. Sex, however, is treated as a purely narrative goal, and so requires that mechanical aspects be added in to let it operate on both levels simultaneously, and that's far and away more difficult.

Having an accomplishment that's just narrative or just mechanical is, in both cases, sub-optimal. Trying to say that one is less sub-optimal than the other doesn't really speak to the underlying point (though that doesn't mean that's not also a worthwhile discussion to have).

Freehold DM wrote:

But I can buy a magic sword if I want, or commission one.

Sure, but doing so gives you a mechanical bonus that's devoid of any narrative achievements; it's not a reward from the Empress if you just go buy/commission a sword.

Quote:

I can't buy my way into the Empress' underclothes. In fact, my attempt to do so may lead to the game ending in a very...tragic...way.

And this flips the situation, since now it's a narrative achievement that's devoid of any mechanical aspect.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the game's narrative and mechanical aspects work best when they intersect, particularly in terms of achievements/rewards/goals/etc. A narrative accomplishment with no mechanical aspect suffers in terms of practical utility. A mechanical accomplishment with no narrative dimension is boring. It's more optimal by far to receive an achievement that has both.

The problem is that it's far easier, to my mind, to put narrative aspects onto a mechanical achievement than vice versa, since narrative exposition doesn't interact with the underpinnings of the game engine, and so doesn't have quite the same disruptive potential. Sex, however, is treated as a purely narrative goal, and so requires that mechanical aspects be added in to let it operate on both levels simultaneously, and that's far and away more difficult.

Having an accomplishment that's just narrative or just mechanical is, in both cases, sub-optimal. Trying to say that one is less sub-optimal than the other doesn't really speak to the underlying point.

You gotta be kidding me. You're bringing OPTIMIZATION into this?!?

You gotta be kidding me. You're bringing OPTIMIZATION into this?!?

No, I'm not. Talking about something being "optimal" is not the same thing as "(character) optimization."

Step back, take a breath, and remember that the word has a standard, dictionary definition, rather than what messageboard-lingo has made it into.

I think the point being that the choice to use seduction as the means to overcome (ahem) an encounter is exactly the same as choosing to use diplomacy, a charm monster spell, or start a fight: you get XP and treasure for all encounters you overcome as part of the adventure. You might not get it at the time*, but you will receive your just rewards.

*: I'm having a great deal of difficulty picturing a character getting it on with a succubus and suddenly being showered by 23,500 gp at the, ah, climax of the encounter.

Exactly. You don't get an incentive to use the combat system or the skill system - they are simply part of the game. So is this.

As to your comment about being showered with 23,500 gp, one of the chapter intro narrative bits features Desria, one of our sample characters, making a deal with a Succubus. The succubus has an item the party wants, and the Succubus challenges one of the party members to please her (without dying in the attempt). Desria heads in and does so (she is protected by both a class feature and her equipment) - and is rewarded with the item she sought, which also ends up becoming Desria's new primary casting rod.

So yeah - Desria succeeded at "defeating" the succubus in the encounter and got an item that was both plot mcguffin and useful treasure.

Obviously not all encounters will be so literal, but that was a very memorable one from one of the playtest games my wife ran.

@Alzrius: and a GM can not take a item Away?
Or can not say a item needs to be Recharged? There is a ton of thing a GM can do to a item or even a ability...and turn it into a adventure. Like my examples...

And having rules for what you want does not mean the GM will play with them.

Any if you want to continue this discussion which is interesting...I suggest you start another thread. As it is off topic here.

Sissyl wrote:

Put me up for a snog with the Empress over taking the holy avenger any day. Seriously, it's a whack situation, it will have far-reaching consequences, it ties my character into the world, it makes an NPC more interesting in the campaign. What was the alternative again? A better chance to hit stuff?

Sure, and that sounds great. But on the other hand, a lot of players - I'd be willing to bet the majority - would see it differently: "One is a storytelling option for a campaign that might end soon, and my PC could die anyway which would diminish my investment in that plot-thread, and besides this won't come into play for ages of in-game time. The alternative bumps up my character's chances of survival and ability to contribute to the group by a large amount, and it does it right now."

Having the Empress personally know the party and be willing to give them favors "won't come into play for ages"? I think that very much depends on the game.

Or, in the most recent playtest game that my wife and I ran, a peasant-born party member entering into an affair with one of the royals ended up with that PC becoming Queen before the end of the game and having her own royal standing army of 2000 3rd level cavaliers (equipped with magic weapons and armor).

Becoming a powerful individuals lover is ALWAYS a powerful reward - no less powerful than being named a noble or being granted a castle (which are already listed as rewards in the Core Rulebook).

As to your point about sex being its own reward - well, yes, sex is rewarding. However, unlike coin or magic items which must be gained or lost, sex is something that benefits both parties (if done right) via mutual orgasms. That is not really possible to quantify in the rewards system.

Likewise, if someone gives me $50, then I have $50. If someone has sex with me, I have a good time, but I have nothing quantifiable to show for it afterwards. Sex is ephemeral. It is wonderful - and then it's gone. Whereas the rewards in Pathfinder RPG are quantifiable. They exist (in the game world) as gold or magic or land or some other thing you can count and keep.

I think that's part of the problem people are having with your idea, Alzrius - I can't even conceptualize what it is you are asking for. I have no idea how someone would make sex mechanically equal to gold because it is an ephemeral experience that can't be quantified.

@Alzrius: and a GM can not take a item Away?

Or can not say a item needs to be Recharged? There is a ton of thing a GM can do to a item or even a ability...and turn it into a adventure. Like my examples...

Not with the same degree of fiat, no. There are rules involved with that sort of thing (e.g. Sleight of Hand, disarm, etc.) that make it about character abilities and die rolls, rather than personal discretion. That's why those rules exist in the first place, because they help to insulate against mistrust when that kind of situation comes up.

And having rules for what you want does not mean the GM will play with them.

No, but at least then they have the option.

Any if you want to continue this discussion which is interesting...I suggest you start another thread. As it is off topic here.

It feels rather awkward to suggest making a new thread after making a counterpoint. If someone else wants to, I'm down with that, though.

Back about the topic...I got my tax return and I am thinking of pledging at the one with the write a iconic and get artwork for it...

What are the guideline for the Iconic?

Having the Empress personally know the party and be willing to give them favors "won't come into play for ages"? I think that very much depends on the game.

I was referring to the idea that you're giving her an heir, who won't be on the throne for a long time, though I'll grant that there's likely to be other, more immediate, social benefits involved.

As to your point about sex being its own reward - well, yes, sex is rewarding. However, unlike coin or magic items which must be gained or lost, sex is something that benefits both parties (if done right) via mutual orgasms. That is not really possible to quantify in the rewards system.

I don't believe that anything is truly impossible, where imagination and innovation come into play (at least insofar as designing games, and other artistic enterprises, goes). Now, I do think that such a system would be difficult to work into the existing advancement tracks regarding personal power (i.e. level) or gear (i.e. wealth by level). That might mean needing to essentially make it it's own reward track, though that leads to myriad difficulties in the implementation of such a thing.

Likewise, if someone gives me $50, then I have $50. If someone has sex with me, I have a good time, but I have nothing quantifiable to show for it afterwards. Sex is ephemeral. It is wonderful - and then it's gone. Whereas the rewards in Pathfinder RPG are quantifiable. They exist (in the game world) as gold or magic or land or some other thing you can count and keep.

I think that's part of the problem people are having with your idea, Alzrius - I can't even conceptualize what it is you are asking for. I have no idea how someone would make sex mechanically equal to gold because it is an ephemeral experience that can't be quantified.

I agree that that's the hard part. I just don't think that means that it can't be done; it certainly wouldn't be anything comparable to a character's gear, but if you can gain permanent increases to personal power and ability by killing things over and over, then there's no real reason to suggest that you can't have a similar system in place for sex.

Now, that would still need need a lot of work, since any such system would need to be robust enough to stand up to players tweaking and prodding it [too many jokes...] to see if the system can be manipulated for their own advantage. But that's an issue of design, rather than conception.

Back about the topic...I got my tax return and I am thinking of pledging at the one with the write a iconic and get artwork for it...

What are the guideline for the Iconic?

I actually have no idea.

The book currently contains 3 iconics - three of the characters Margherita and I used to playtest some of the archetypes, feats, spells, and traits.

I've already mentioned Desria, the one I played.

To create new ones, I assume you would need to use some materials from this book... which I guess you'd get access to with the pledge level? Yeah, really not sure.

To get a proper answer, you will need to ask Christina.

but if you can gain permanent increases to personal power and ability by killing things over and over, then there's no real reason to suggest that you can't have a similar system in place for sex.

*blinks*

Um... yes. Both would grant Experience points.

That's what I meant earlier about sex being one of the ways to solve problems. It's another way to overcome encounters - which grants experience points.

So yes, sex and killing monsters (and disarming traps) both help increase personal power in exactly the same way.

@Alzius: I might as I this issue has always interested me. Which goes deeper than just mechanical bonuses for sex.

@Zelgadas Greyward:

Okay I will just wait for Christina to come on by.

Can you give us a sneak peek at the new playable Races?

That's what I meant earlier about sex being one of the ways to solve problems. It's another way to overcome encounters - which grants experience points.

So yes, sex and killing monsters (and disarming traps) both help increase personal power in exactly the same way.

Ah, that wasn't clear before. I did understand that you meant it in terms of being akin to the skill system, but not that it would be an avenue by which (by itself) encounters could be overcome...though to be fair, the issue with traps was probably the more germane example; I was mostly looking at monsters since that seemed like a more obvious place to put a sex system to use. :p

In that case, I'd like to ask to what extent The Book of Passion deals with ways in which such a thing can avoid being exploited by powergaming players. For example, what's to stop someone from going back to the same (sexual) encounter over and over, and gaining XP each time? Normally you couldn't do that, since the opponent is dead, but in this case that wouldn't apply.

Or, on a darker (or perhaps sillier) note, what about someone having sex with a creature for XP, and then slaying it (e.g. "now that the succubus is sleeping, I coup de grace her!"). They wouldn't get double XP, right?

@Zelgadas Greyward:

Okay I will just wait for Christina to come on by.

I actually just sent her a message letting her know about your question, so she should have some info for you shortly.

Can you give us a sneak peek at the new playable Races?

Sure.

First off we have some variant tieflings (based on our more specific half-fiends mentioned earlier) in the same vein as varient tieflings from other sources but sexier.

Then we have two entirely new races. Both merge humanoid type with a different creature type. Both races are hermaphroditic.

One of them is able to change shape to a limited degree, so can be either sex as needed. They can also squeeze into spaces as if they were two size categories smaller than they are. Or a bucket.

The other race appears to be all female, but actually has two sets of genitals - the usual female humanoid parts below, and male stamens for hair.

I think that's a sneaky enough peek for now. ^^ If nothing else, that will probably breed some speculation. Pun intended.

In that case, I'd like to ask to what extent The Book of Passion deals with ways in which such a thing can avoid being exploited by powergaming players. For example, what's to stop someone from going back to the same (sexual) encounter over and over, and gaining XP each time? Normally you couldn't do that, since the opponent is dead, but in this case that wouldn't apply.

Or, on a darker (or perhaps sillier) note, what about someone having sex with a creature for XP, and then slaying it (e.g. "now that the succubus is sleeping, I coup de grace her!"). They wouldn't get double XP, right?

We don't really deal with it because that's more of a GM thing.

Just like you can theoretically animate undead and then kill them for XP, but no sane GM would actually let you do it.

You wouldn't get XP for going to a brothel and paying for sex. You would get XP for seducing a CR 5 guard so your party can sneak past or so you can steal his keys.

And, if you then killed that guard, you would only get the XP once because you still only defeated the guard once. Just like you can get XP for sneaking past a guard or killing the guard, but not both.

Since the Core rulebook already handles anti-double-dipping for XP, no new rules are needed.

Zelgadas Greyward wrote:

That's what I meant earlier about sex being one of the ways to solve problems. It's another way to overcome encounters - which grants experience points.

So yes, sex and killing monsters (and disarming traps) both help increase personal power in exactly the same way.

Ah, that wasn't clear before. I did understand that you meant it in terms of being akin to the skill system, but not that it would be an avenue by which (by itself) encounters could be overcome...though to be fair, the issue with traps was probably the more germane example; I was mostly looking at monsters since that seemed like a more obvious place to put a sex system to use. :p

In that case, I'd like to ask to what extent The Book of Passion deals with ways in which such a thing can avoid being exploited by powergaming players. For example, what's to stop someone from going back to the same (sexual) encounter over and over, and gaining XP each time? Normally you couldn't do that, since the opponent is dead, but in this case that wouldn't apply.

Or, on a darker (or perhaps sillier) note, what about someone having sex with a creature for XP, and then slaying it (e.g. "now that the succubus is sleeping, I coup de grace her!"). They wouldn't get double XP, right?

There are all ready rules in place for this. It is a common mistake but you don't have to kill the creature to get exp. For them. If you use say bluff to get past a couple of guards you should get exp for their CR.

Also if you defeat a opponent by one means...and later try to defeat it again unless it has gained in power through level or circumstances or etc. You don't get exp for the encounter again.

Back about the topic...I got my tax return and I am thinking of pledging at the one with the write a iconic and get artwork for it...

What are the guideline for the Iconic?

Hey, John. I'm basically looking for you to write up a character concept and art description to be included. You can stat out the character all the way, or you can have the authors do it for you, with your suggestions on what abilities you'd like. I'm open to seeing some diversity in races and ideals. Most concepts will get approval, I'm sure, unless there is something truly offensive about it. PM me if you have a concept you want to run by me.

We'd love to have you on board! Note these are opportunities for would-be freelancers to prove their chops, too. I'll have a lot of projects going on in the future, and I'm always looking to give good writers a path toward publication dreams. Rich Howard was one of my apprentices for Bite Me!, btw; he's gone on to do many freelance projects since--just saying, in case you have a really large tax return and would be interested in being my apprentice.

I just posted a preview of Margherita's Paladin's Oath of Love. Please check it out.

I love the preview. It fills a really awesome narrative niche for the paladin that is often neglected.

John Kretzer wrote:

Back about the topic...I got my tax return and I am thinking of pledging at the one with the write a iconic and get artwork for it...

What are the guideline for the Iconic?

Hey, John. I'm basically looking for you to write up a character concept and art description to be included. You can stat out the character all the way, or you can have the authors do it for you, with your suggestions on what abilities you'd like. I'm open to seeing some diversity in races and ideals. Most concepts will get approval, I'm sure, unless there is something truly offensive about it. PM me if you have a concept you want to run by me.

We'd love to have you on board! Note these are opportunities for would-be freelancers to prove their chops, too. I'll have a lot of projects going on in the future, and I'm always looking to give good writers a path toward publication dreams. Rich Howard was one of my apprentices for Bite Me!, btw; he's gone on to do many freelance projects since--just saying, in case you have a really large tax return and would be interested in being my apprentice.

Okay...cool. I love creating characters...concepts an all. I will send you a PM with a couple of ideas.

Unfortunately my tax return is not that big. :(

John Kretzer wrote:

@Zelgadas Greyward:

Okay I will just wait for Christina to come on by.

I actually just sent her a message letting her know about your question, so she should have some info for you shortly.

John Kretzer wrote:

Can you give us a sneak peek at the new playable Races?

Sure.

First off we have some variant tieflings (based on our more specific half-fiends mentioned earlier) in the same vein as varient tieflings from other sources but sexier.

Then we have two entirely new races. Both merge humanoid type with a different creature type. Both races are hermaphroditic.

One of them is able to change shape to a limited degree, so can be either sex as needed. They can also squeeze into spaces as if they were two size categories smaller than they are. Or a bucket.

The other race appears to be all female, but actually has two sets of genitals - the usual female humanoid parts below, and male stamens for hair.

I think that's a sneaky enough peek for now. ^^ If nothing else, that will probably breed some speculation. Pun intended.

Neat...I am really liking this book.

John Kretzer wrote:

@Zelgadas Greyward:

Okay I will just wait for Christina to come on by.

I actually just sent her a message letting her know about your question, so she should have some info for you shortly.

John Kretzer wrote:

Can you give us a sneak peek at the new playable Races?

Sure.

First off we have some variant tieflings (based on our more specific half-fiends mentioned earlier) in the same vein as varient tieflings from other sources but sexier.

Then we have two entirely new races. Both merge humanoid type with a different creature type. Both races are hermaphroditic.

One of them is able to change shape to a limited degree, so can be either sex as needed. They can also squeeze into spaces as if they were two size categories smaller than they are. Or a bucket.

The other race appears to be all female, but actually has two sets of genitals - the usual female humanoid parts below, and male stamens for hair.

I think that's a sneaky enough peek for now. ^^ If nothing else, that will probably breed some speculation. Pun intended.

The example hybrid races in the pregnancy chapter are also playable: dwelves, half-ogres, half-satyrs, and dragonkin (advanced race).

Is it bad that I'm amused this is a "3.75" product rather than a Pathfinder Compatible one? (I mean, I know why this is the case, but still. XD)

Okay I have backed the kickstarter...and I will see if I can get others as well from my gaming group...

Oh...do you get credit for the Iconic if gets Published?

One of them is able to change shape to a limited degree, so can be either sex as needed. They can also squeeze into spaces as if they were two size categories smaller than they are. Or a bucket.

The other race appears to be all female, but actually has two sets of genitals - the usual female humanoid parts below, and male stamens for hair.

I think that's a sneaky enough peek for now. ^^ If nothing else, that will probably breed some speculation. Pun intended.

I want to say one is an ooze and the other plant?

Is it bad that I'm amused this is a "3.75" product rather than a Pathfinder Compatible one? (I mean, I know why this is the case, but still. XD)

In case others don't know: it is a legal thing with Paizo's compatibility logo use. Back in the day, Wizards of the Coast made a ruling that they did not want to be associated with certain types of material, like the Book of Erotic Fantasy; therefore, they deemed the logo, which was meant to drive customers back to 3E, could not be used. Paizo is following the same path with use of their logo. To get around this, just like with 3e, we are claiming OGL. By saying OGL 3.75, we are trying to give people a huge hint about what ruleset we are talking about.

Believe me, if we could claim compatibility, we would. We have to follow the rules, though. I get why companies want to remove themselves from certain material. It is their right. Luckily, the OGL is out there, so we aren't totally prevented from playing in their playpen. :)

Okay I have backed the kickstarter...and I will see if I can get others as well from my gaming group...

Oh...do you get credit for the Iconic if gets Published?

You absolutely get credited! Thank you for the support. I look forward to hearing what you have in mind. I'm having fun as the publisher sneaking in art connections to my home campaign and to other products we've done, like Strange Brew and Bite Me! The witch iconics from Strange Brew are currently popping up in all kind of situations. One is actually on the front cover of The Book of Passion. I'm going to get my medusa witch in the book somewhere, too.

You absolutely get credited! Thank you for the support. I look forward to hearing what you have in mind. I'm having fun as the publisher sneaking in art connections to my home campaign and to other products we've done, like Strange Brew and Bite Me! The witch iconics from Strange Brew are currently popping up in all kind of situations. One is actually on the front cover of The Book of Passion. I'm going to get my medusa witch in the book somewhere, too.

As a backer at the iconic level, are unusual races welcome? Not otyugh unusual, but outside the core 7. I am kicking around a few ideas and want to know the approximate limit.

Medusa, yay!

Half-Satyr, also yay!

Medusa, yay!

Half-Satyr, also yay!

That depends on which half...I mean one of the halves would just be a goat...not there is anything wrong with that. ;)

Rysky wrote:

Medusa, yay!

Half-Satyr, also yay!

That depends on which half...I mean one of the halves would just be a goat...not there is anything wrong with that. ;)

Nuuuuu, they have nice fluffy legs. Iz different :3

And an adorable little floof of a tail.

...We'd love to have you on board! Note these are opportunities for would-be freelancers to prove their chops, too. I'll have a lot of projects going on in the future, and I'm always looking to give good writers a path toward publication dreams.

Hmmm...

Not really my thing, in the main...

So I backed it.

Christina Stiles wrote:

...We'd love to have you on board! Note these are opportunities for would-be freelancers to prove their chops, too. I'll have a lot of projects going on in the future, and I'm always looking to give good writers a path toward publication dreams.

Hmmm...

Do eeeeeeet.

Yay! Thankies!

Christina Stiles wrote:

You absolutely get credited! Thank you for the support. I look forward to hearing what you have in mind. I'm having fun as the publisher sneaking in art connections to my home campaign and to other products we've done, like Strange Brew and Bite Me! The witch iconics from Strange Brew are currently popping up in all kind of situations. One is actually on the front cover of The Book of Passion. I'm going to get my medusa witch in the book somewhere, too.

As a backer at the iconic level, are unusual races welcome? Not otyugh unusual, but outside the core 7. I am kicking around a few ideas and want to know the approximate limit.

Absolutely! I would prefer something different from the core, actually. Also, note that your character gets a clothed and unclothed version of art.

Not really my thing, in the main...

So I backed it.

Yay! It is really a fun project. You won't be disappointed. I've got more sneak peeks from Margherita and Will to get out over the next few days.

Moskau wrote:

Christina Stiles wrote:

You absolutely get credited! Thank you for the support. I look forward to hearing what you have in mind. I'm having fun as the publisher sneaking in art connections to my home campaign and to other products we've done, like Strange Brew and Bite Me! The witch iconics from Strange Brew are currently popping up in all kind of situations. One is actually on the front cover of The Book of Passion. I'm going to get my medusa witch in the book somewhere, too.

As a backer at the iconic level, are unusual races welcome? Not otyugh unusual, but outside the core 7. I am kicking around a few ideas and want to know the approximate limit.

Absolutely! I would prefer something different from the core, actually. Also, note that your character gets a clothed and unclothed version of art.

Expect a rough pitch sometime tonight then. I have a 6 hour flight to Seattle to stew on things.

Any chance you have space for a somewhat-more-than-aspiring freelancer? I might have some free time coming up. ^_^

(Plus, I'm a bit short on cash, and yet very tempted by that illustrate-a-character thing.)

Any chance you have space for a somewhat-more-than-aspiring freelancer? I might have some free time coming up. ^_^

(Plus, I'm a bit short on cash, and yet very tempted by that illustrate-a-character thing.)

She writes cool stuff, I've read and bought some ^w^

Hmm, does I get the Half-Drow/Half-Satyr (I've been using a faun with the Drowblooded 3pp template) ranger or something else?

...

YAZI!