Ok, this is yet another build I am considering starting with my extra GM credits.
Since season 5 is assumed to be big on demons, a demon hunter seems appropriate. Well, the class that immediately comes to mind is obviously the paladin.
Demons have:
DR cold iron and/or good, countered by smite.
High AC and/or HP, countered by smite.
Powerful spells or SLA’s, countered by divine grace, mercies, and spells.
Do horrendous damage, countered by swift heals.
Etc…
Paladin just seems like the ideal choice. So I’m thinking and Aasimar Oathbound paladin with an Oath Against Fiends (possibly also the Shining Knight or Sacred Shield archtype).
There is just one wrinkle against that choice. I really don’t believe that a paladin has to be played lawful stupid to meet his code. However, many people seem to expect that every paladin will be played that way. I hate sitting down at a table and hearing the groans of great another one of ‘those guys’ that we have to put up with. Yes, as we play they should be able to eventually realize I’m not like that. But not entirely sure I want that uphill battle for acceptance.
So if I was not going to build a paladin, what do you think would make the second best demon killer? (I will probably stat a few of them up then make my decision later.)
I doubt you will really have issues playing a paladin in PFS. I've yet to encounter such. However an archer (whatever flavor) can be plenty effective against whatever. Once you get to clustered shots, DR is mostly laughable, and in any case cold iron arrows are dirt cheap.
Play the Paladin. Let the deities sort 'em out.
I may do just that. But I'm trying to figure out what the next best option would be for comparisons sake. If the next best option is darn near as effective at killing demons without the attitude issues, I might pick it instead.
.I doubt you will really have issues playing a paladin in PFS. I've yet to encounter such. ...
I've seen it several times when someone else brought a paladin to the table. I know at least one guy gave up on the paladin and started a new PC at least partially because of that attitude. Though I will admit he had some trouble reading the code as anything in between lawful stupid and judge dred.
.... However an archer (whatever flavor) can be plenty effective against whatever. Once you get to clustered shots, DR is mostly laughable, and in any case cold iron arrows are dirt cheap.
Well, I don't like a build that doesn't really work until halfway to retirement, but yes cold iron arrows are cheap. This would allow him to do damage to demons. But doesn't address any other capability of the demons. The horrific damage they do, high DC SLA's, many have mobility that let's them get in melee with an archer.
.It also just says this guy kills things. Not this guy kills demons.
You say this would use GM credit to start; what level would you be coming in at?
You say this would use GM credit to start; what level would you be coming in at?
Don't really know. I don't have the GM credits yet. I will be running some of the 1st level PFS scenarios in the near future and my lowest level PC is currently level 3. Seems a waste to assign the low reward chronicle sheet to a higher level PC.
How about an inquisitor, possibly a dwarven exarch? That would make a GREAT hellknight candidate, if you wanted to go that route later on. Hellknights seem really well equipped as demon hunters in their own right.
Ranger favored enemy(evil outsiders) would probably be more generally effective than an archer paladin if only because you wont run out of smites. Also, ranger will pick up may of the necessary feats from his fighting style.
Paladin will always be a strong choice when you can expect lots of evil outsiders though.
I'm running a "Cold Iron Inquisitor from Demon Hunters Hand book" now in PFS, and mixing it with Paladin levels. I primarily use him for season 5 scenarios and have some GM credit mixed in. He's currenlty a lvl/5 Inq. of Erastil with the Growth subdomain and a lvl/1 Paladin. I will go ut the rest of the way in Paladin.
There is a issue with falling behind on BAB early and it's a pretty major one I swing and miss a lot.
Also so far there are not that many demons to enoucnter in season 5. I shine when I run into Evil Outsiders but am a below average PC the rest of the time. So I have now decided for the rest of season 5 I'm only going to use him in the Silver Crusade scenarios I fiugre most of them will be demon encounter scenarios.
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... However an archer (whatever flavor) can be plenty effective against whatever. Once you get to clustered shots, DR is mostly laughable, and in any case cold iron arrows are dirt cheap.Well, I don't like a build that doesn't really work until halfway to retirement, but yes cold iron arrows are cheap. This would allow him to do damage to demons. But doesn't address any other capability of the demons. The horrific damage they do, high DC SLA's, many have mobility that let's them get in melee with an archer.
.
It also just says this guy kills things. Not this guy kills demons.
If you are under the impression that archers fail to kill things, you've never been at a table with a well built archer. They are well known for their obscene damage. If you are worried about saves, then Zen Archer is the way to go. Being a monk you have all good saves. Then since you can use wisdom as your to hit stat, it's well worth pushing that even higher. The only concern you might hit is a dose of MAD, but you only really need Str, Wis, and Con (ultimately- dex is handy early on). Zen archers are arguably the best archers there are, and if something does come in close, you still have unarmed strike, and eventually you threaten with a bow, and don't provoke AOOs. Also since demons are likely to have better mobility than you do, an archer really is helpful (demons can fly, and about all teleport).
Ranger favored enemy(evil outsiders) would probably be more generally effective than an archer paladin if only because you wont run out of smites. Also, ranger will pick up may of the necessary feats from his fighting style.
Paladin will always be a strong choice when you can expect lots of evil outsiders though.
Other than the first couple levels. I have rarely seen anyone encounter enough seriously dangerous bad guys that running out of smites has been a problem.
I will think about the ranger. The hunting, locating, hating demons does make sense for them.
Cold Iron Inquisitor from Demon Hunters Hand book.
Have not had a chance to look at that book yet. Not sure if I'm willing to buy a book for just a single character though. I will peruse one and see how useful it might be for other PC's.
Inquisitor or Ranger would be my choice. Both have good tools to fight demons while also having the knowledges and skills to back it up.
A Paladin can't really "hunt" anything. Sure if he accidentally stumbles upon a Demon Smite Evil will tear it up, but how the hell is a Paladin supposed to find them or hunt them down otherwise. Demons don't just hang out looking ugly at the local tavern. They run grand schemes and cults from behind layers of minions.
Inquisitors especially have the tools needed to root out Demons: to investigate leads, gather information, look through clues, find them, and kill them.
...
Also Inquisitors and Rangers don't have to be Lawful Good, so that eliminates another one of your stated problems.
Hadn't really considered the 'finding' them aspect. I guess usually when I have seen them appear in an adventure, they have always been pretty obvious and coming after me. But I shouldn't expect that to always be the case. Your right the inquisitor skills could be very useful even if they aren't quite as good at killing the demon.
...If you are under the impression that archers fail to kill things, you've never been at a table with a well built archer. They are well known for their obscene damage. If you are worried about saves, then Zen Archer is the way to go. Being a monk you have all good saves. Then since you can use wisdom as your to hit stat, it's well worth pushing that even higher. The only concern you might hit is a dose of MAD, but you only really need Str, Wis, and Con (ultimately- dex is handy early on). Zen archers are arguably the best archers there are, and if something does come in close, you still have unarmed strike, and eventually you threaten with a bow, and don't provoke AOOs. Also since demons are likely to have better mobility than you do, an archer really is helpful (demons can fly, and about all teleport).
Never said anything close to "archers fail to kill things." I have seen several played and yes they kill lots of things by doing massive damage. However they often do have problems in cramped quarters, when things get close to them, several low level spells can just about shut them down, usually not terribly good saves, etc... Not saying their horrible, but I just don't think they are absolute perfection like some people assume. Good point about the zen archer though. I didn't think about that. Their saves should be nearly as good as a paladin's.
The 2 points I was trying to make are:
1) DR is only one fairly minor ability of demons they have a whole lot of other things going for them. Just a generic archer doesn't address those at all.
2) Yes it kills things. But there is nothing specifically about demon killing to generic (or zen) archer. They kill anything. I can't think of any real way to specialize them in killing demons better than they kill other things.
Ranger, Infiltrator archetype. Either human switch hitter with a Nodachi, flavor him as a well traveled, semi-weary warrior who has seen it all, killed a bit of everything, but still idealistically protects people from demonic foes outside their ken.
Or, melee Oni-Spawn tiefling with a Nodachi, and Arcane Strike via the SLA racial ability. He's trying to find the demon that tainted his bloodline several generations back... All he knows is it's a demon from the East. He's a mercenary to pay the bills, his blade from a samurai he slew.
Longbow works too, i just find archery a bit boring these days.
a few alternates for the paladin:
-ranger (FE demons and devils, misc), all kinds of fun archetypes here.
-inquisitor is like a step between ranger and paladin, with good flexibility at the cost of full BAB. also good archetypes.
-if you decide to go paladin, look into the oath against... fiends or devils i think, i cant remember the name. remember you can stack oaths as long as the only overlap is the spells (theres a specific section on it for oathbound paladins)
Paladin Archer. Short on feats, long on Full Attacks.
Paladin Archer. Short on feats, long on Full Attacks.
luring cavalier acts as a sort of "archer paladin lite", and isnt prone to falling when an orphanage burns down (unrelated to the paladin's actuons)
... Oni-Spawn tiefling with a Nodachi, and Arcane Strike via the SLA racial ability. He's trying to find the demon that tainted his bloodline several generations back...
I kinda like this concept. Regardless of what build I end up with.
... Oni-Spawn tiefling with a Nodachi, and Arcane Strike via the SLA racial ability. He's trying to find the demon that tainted his bloodline several generations back...I kinda like this concept. Regardless of what build I end up with.
reminds me of a FOOOOLISH SAMURAI for some reason
A cleric (with Alignment Channel (vs. Evil)), inquisitor, or ranger could do well as a demon-hunter. You might also consider multiclassing:
Ranger 2/Paladin 10 switch-hitter
15 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha before racial modifiers (or 16 Str, 12 Con if you want to attack a bit better in melee); 10 Wis, 16 Cha as an aasimar
Favored Enemy (+2 Evil Outsiders)
Point Blank Shot at 1st, Improved Shield Bash at 3rd, Quick Draw at 5th, Rapid Shot at 7th, Improved Critical (Scimitar) at 9th, ? at 11th; can take Rapid Shot at 5th and Quick Draw at 7th instead
Use Combat Style to pick up Two-Weapon Fighting (extra attack in melee)
Weapons are bow (composite longbow ASAP; eventually magical) and scimitar (cold iron ASAP)/light shield (eventually +X bashing light mithral quickdraw shield). Bow for ranged attacks (carry a bunch of cold iron arrows treated with silver weapon blanch); scimitar (and Improved Critical) to take full advantage of bless weapon (obtain a couple pearls of power (1st) to use in multiple combats); bashing light mithral quickdraw shield counts as bludgeoning, magic, silver (for devils, lycanthropes, undead, etc.) and can be readied/stowed as a free action (with Quick Draw).
... Oni-Spawn tiefling with a Nodachi, and Arcane Strike via the SLA racial ability. He's trying to find the demon that tainted his bloodline several generations back...I kinda like this concept. Regardless of what build I end up with.
Glad you like it.. I used it as the backstory for a Fighter/Rogue Tiefling who used a Bardiche and Heavy Armor. I also made a Ranger version... Both had Nodachi back-ups. Game fell through after TPK, so never got to use the idea...
Take a look at the Cold Iron Inquisitor Holy Vindicator.
Combination is quite gross against Demons...
Look at the dates, after 10 years folks are rather unlikely to be considering builds the "upcoming" season of PFS modules.
Anyone looking for a non-paladin demon slayer can use this suggestion. My PFS demon slayer is a barbarian. He has celestial bloodline and world serpent totem. He also went horizon walker PRC with abyss and hell as dominant terrains.
So if he hits you with a rock it counts as cold iron, silver, and all 4 alignments. Also gets a bonus to AC vs outsiders and and aberrations. And he has favored enemy bonuses against creatures from the abyss.