DM Stormwind's Legacy of Fire - The Heavens aligned against us.

Game Master LastNameOnEarth

I have no problem with keeping prone RAW; this is meant to be a 'hard mode' game, after all ;-)

You can already do that.

In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

Base DC is the creature's CMB.

Well, then I say leave it :)

Is this combat a Brave Sir Robin moment?

Lol

You can already do that.

[b wrote:

You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.[/b] If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

Base DC is the creature's CMB.

That part is news to me. Given that, and the option of using full defense when standing up, it is probably fine to leave it.

Ok, on the whole grappling affair, there are two things going on:

1.) I tend to feel that while Paizo did grappling a big favour over all, there were still a few oversights. One is the affect of size on grappling. Yes size gives a bonus to grappling, but that doesn't address a key issue, that both parties are are considered 'grappled' when engaged with each other. Considering this, under RAW, a colossal giant could pick up a halfling between his thumb and forefinger, and yet still be considered having the 'grappled' condition himself. Under some conditions such as these, it does not seem unreasonable for the grappler to not receive the condition himself for engaging in a grapple. I considered this more of a monster special ability than a general houserule, but you could label it either way. I would usually restrict this to two size categories in size difference or more, but...

2.) I realized after I posted the first attack that I had trapped myself. I should have asked for a marching order, waited for it, and then gone in to perception checks, etc. However, I had assigned a marching order based on a previous one, and then proceeded into a combat with it. The combat order I created made Zerekias the most obvious target. Him ending up grabbed was just the rolls after that point. However, the scorpions next logical actions would kill Z in very short order. Now, this is a Playing on Hard campaign, and I have no problem killing a character; in fact I'd be surprised if we don't have a higher than average mortality rate. However, I dislike arbitrary killing, and as I'd trapped myself, Zerekias would have died with no input from him, which to me is no better than dropping a rock on him from the sky. So, I applied the above stream of though on a monster ability even though the creature is only one size category larger as it allowed an excuse to not crush and/or sting Zerekias and kill him outright. It also allowed me to drop him, and now he's free to make his own decisions, and everyone is fair game to kill again. Yay!

Since I'd used a custom special ability with this monster, my intention was to continue using it for the duration of the fight, for consistency.

Well, I might be the lone ranger here, but I'm actually not fussed at all about how you rule stuff. Your houserules show that you are interested in a good game with good rules, and as a GM, I know how sometimes it's necessary to tweak things on the fly, whether it's for fairness, consistency, orj just everyone's fun.

I'm cool with whatever, as I'm pretty confident you're not just gonna change stuff to kill us :)

It is your game, and in the end what you say goes no questions. I just like to point out RAW because some people (including myself) don't know all of it. I've learned countless rules things PBPing on this board from my players.

I'm fine with whatever for this combat, especially if it keeps a PC from getting killed so early in the game. Lets just agree (or have you inform us) on something permanent before the next encounter? Just in the interest of everybody knowing where they stand rules-wise going into fights.

I'm not the 'My way or the Highway' type, and I don't think that that type of GMing is conducive to fun. So, if feedback is generally negative on this sort of thing, I will take it into account in the future.

For this creature, here and now, I believe sticking with what I have started makes things simplest, and most consistent. Therefore, this Scorpion is a modified creature with the special ability that when holding a medium or smaller sized prey specifically with his claw, he does not gain the 'grappled' condition. He must still maintain the grapple on his opponent or they will automatically be released.

Big Z soaked it's AoO, Seif smashed the bejesus out of it, Muqaq incinerated its insides... While Tarin managed to do a forward roll badly enough that he got attacked for it.

Lucky it's a team sport :)

Love it! This is a great breakdown of some "teamwork". :)

But you forgot to mention how Mohgwier managed to keep one of its claws occupied. That was quite clever as well, you know. ;)

Character Review:
I was off work today sick with a cold (I work in a hospital, and they kid of frown at having you cough on everyone there) so I finally got around to something I've been meaning to do for a while; a character review. If I ask about something that does not make sense, or think I see an issue when there is a simple explanation, please forgive me. Just point out the obvious answer and I'll hang my head in shame for an appropriate amount of time.

Notes to all: If you haven't already, please make a spoilered note on what your favoured class is, and what option you have taken for each level you have acheived so far.

Example:

Skills: Please list your skills with your usual maximum rank, number of skill ranks in that skill, and then your final total given any armour penalty. I also like the way Sati has her skills divided up into class and non-class skills, making the +3 bonus easy to account for without having to look up the class to know if it is indeed a class skill or not.

Thank you all for choosing to play this game, I'm having a great time so far. Looking through the characters, I like what I see. Very few errors (or potential errors if I am wrong) and the majority are not in your favour. If you have anything to bring up in response to these observations, please let me know.

Seif-al-Din has the 'Battle' Mystery, which, amongst other things, gives you Perception as a class skill :-)

I will go through and add-up the weight of his carried gear shortly; I am fairly confident it will be a light load, though, given his strength.

Sorry Seif, I even went into the Battle mystery with the specific intention of seeing what skills it granted, but got distracted reading abilities. It's a fun mystery with some pretty brutal abilities later on.

** spoiler omitted **

Wow, learned something else new. I knew it impacted movement speed, but I never noticed it affected agility. Thanks.

You're welcome. Your players may not be so happy though ;) One of the reasons a bag of holding or handy haversack are high on my list of "gets".

Sati will take Knowledge Arcana as a skill and Mohgwier will take an Improved Trip feat.

My favored class is listed under my racial abilities (it's sorcerer) and I'll always be taking the HP option.

My favored class will be both Ranger and Barbarian. Half-elf and all. Be taking the HP option every time as well. But I have it listed in my hit points anyway. It's the fc bit within my hp's.

And thanks for the heads up on the Skill error. I actually had several of those type of errors due to the previous build and fixed the others. Didn't quite catch 'em all, though. :P

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say Luke is a HUGE fan of Battle Oracle's.(see Tyrrol) ;)
(Of course, Seif is way less callous. Just sayin' is all.) ;)

Hey, Seif-al-Din had a much more gentle and loving upbringing, and has not been forced to see the futility and pointlessness of life, and the callousness of the world in general, like Tyrrol has ;-)

In the Game thread I am just waiting for someone to say or do something decisive. Whether you decide to explore the lair or head back to camp, I can move things along after I know. If anyone is going to continue following the tracks, please say so. Otherwise, I guess it's a matter of waiting to see if no one volunteers to do so, or all agree to head back.

Get yourself well, Storm. It's hard to do anything when you're miserable.

Just wanted to comment a bit on why this whole thing with Zerekias has become an issue, from the GM side.

First, the book does not make any reference to a chain of command. I feel that in an operation like this, it makes very little sense not to have one. If you wished something to happen, hiring a bunch of guys separately, and then saying, go clear that building, is likely to lead to many different, and possibly conflicting plans. In a genre savy roleplaying group this doesn't tend to happen, as everyone will work together, but is that realistic? Most employers are going to insist on some form of control by where they can help ensure success. Putting some temporary commanders in place helps add a lot of realism, in my opinion, and expands on an area of these scenarios that is quite unrealistically, and unbelievably overlooked IMHO.

Second, is that once a command structure is introduced, refusal to accept it is automatically insubordination. Talk about red flags.

Zerekias has essentially indicate that he will not accept or follow orders, and is here as a free citizen. I can see how that would make good sense to him. He is a barbarian.

However, turn it about and look at it from Almah and Garavel's perspective. They have put together and funded an operation to restore this town. As a result, they bear the financial implications of failure, as well as the risk of dying in the attempt. Now, one of the men they have hired has stated flat out that he will not follow their orders. This means that they are to have no control over him, dispite their presence and mission being the only reason He has any chance of helping to liberate the town. If he chooses to do something foolish, such as reveal the group's presence early, or gets captured and reveals anything about their intentions to attack the town, their plan is screwed. They loose all the money they invested, AND, if they don't know their plan has been compromised, they risk walking into an ambush and dying with all of the other people they hired. No commander in their right mind would ever agree to such a situation. As a result, they are pressing Zerekias hard on why he has chosen this path, and why they will not accept any answer but acceptance of their authority and still allow him to remain.

Make sense?

In summary, not trying to be a dick DM, just playing logically, and RPing the NPC's in a way that is logical and consistent to them.

Makes perfect sense to me. From a player side I can see not wanting to take orders from another PC, but refusing to take orders from the people who hired you means you are not their employee. Since this isn't a grocery store, and wealth and lives are on the line insubordination is unacceptable. -shrug- Guess if Zerekias wants to role-play himself out of the game that's his choice.

I tend to feel that for realism, in a case where there is a clear employer, there should be a 'lead' of some sort. It stretches plausibility not to have some such arrangement.

In reality, I do not think that the PC leader will even be issuing much, if any, actual orders.

I also intend to have Almah take feedback on the choices after the next stage, a reassign the leadership positions if it makes sense to do so, based on success and feedback.

Makes perfect sense to me. From a player side I can see not wanting to take orders from another PC, but refusing to take orders from the people who hired you means you are not their employee. Since this isn't a grocery store, and wealth and lives are on the line insubordination is unacceptable. -shrug- Guess if Zerekias wants to role-play himself out of the game that's his choice.

Because DnD has never been about characters joining up and fighting for a cause without having to get paid for it, has it Jelani? Who's ever heard of a group of folks banding together and ridding the land of a common foe without the promise of money? Shocking, I know. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, I'm going to somewhat respectfully bow out.

Later.

Just to put it out there, Tarin doesn't really consider himself anyone's subordinate except Cayden's - he's an inquisitor, makes his own damn rules! But he's quite happy to play the game, and also sees the multiple benefit of a chain of command, and the possible pitfalls of disorganisation. Also, leading sucks, and friends are good - if nothing else, they make it easier to achieve one's goals. Which is also hard to do dead or tied to a camel :)

The PC leadership thing was meant to be flavour more than anything else, to add to the immersion of the world and the game; because it makes sense. I'd ask you to discuss with me a bit further before bowing out.

I thought it was great that you were sticking in character and taking it so far, but I was wondering all along what the intent was. As a result, I was RPing the NPCs just as hard, ironically because I thought it would be disrespectful not to, given how ardent Zerekias was being.

I have been enjoying the characterization of Zerekias, and I don't think I have ever seen a character quite like him. I think bowing out would premature. I hope I have not offended through this, as that was the furthest thing from my mind.

Muqaq al-Varisi wrote:

Makes perfect sense to me. From a player side I can see not wanting to take orders from another PC, but refusing to take orders from the people who hired you means you are not their employee. Since this isn't a grocery store, and wealth and lives are on the line insubordination is unacceptable. -shrug- Guess if Zerekias wants to role-play himself out of the game that's his choice.

Because DnD has never been about characters joining up and fighting for a cause without having to get paid for it, has it Jelani? Who's ever heard of a group of folks banding together and ridding the land of a common foe without the promise of money? Shocking, I know. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, I'm going to somewhat respectfully bow out.

Later.

Ok, didn't see that coming.

You sure Zerekias couldn't compromise just a wee bit to be a part of the team rather than separate and his own team but in the same place? I was also enjoying him, but I don't know as he needs to be that hardline in a co-op game like this.

Can't we all be friends? :)

I have no trouble with a character that sticks to his guns and stays in character. He's in the mess now, but there are still ways out that I haven't yet brought up. I thought he was unique, and it was kind of funny reading his actions some times, as I've never seen a PC portrayed quite like him. I don't need anyone to compromise their character for the sake of artificial harmony.

Let us not be too hasty.

Muqaq could care less about the money. He's here for his own reasons, that's why he didn't try to negotiate more. Sad to see you go man.

First: On the PC leadership, if it's flavor then that's fine. But my pc will not be taking any orders from another PC. Period. You all can mark that down now. Now having said that, say after some time in game, one of the PC's kinda walks into the leadership roll, then that's far more acceptable. But even then, the pc's should know each other well enough to know how far they can go with such a role.

Now, at this point and time, his only intent is too aid in destroying the gnolls. I know it's not written down in his background(because I hate background), but they have been a curse to his people. So he will help in any way for that to come about.

But when he is told he must obey some chick in a dress, who as far as he's concerned doesn't know a sword from a spoon, it's not gonna happen. I'm sorry, it's just not. Not with this guy. If you notice, he's not a jerk, he's just truthful. Well, in a cold hard truth sort of way.

Take Xanyon for example. He said himself that "He has done little".

Zerekias responded "I agree with the gunman, he has done little."

Now is that uncouth? Sure it is. He could've been more polite about it. But in truth, all he was doing was agreeing. He did not say it sarcastically or with a roll of his eyes. He just agreed. What I didn't think of until it was too late, was that he should've responded: "I was only agreeing." Maybe or maybe not that would've helped understand his character a bit better. Unfortunately, I didn't think of until too many posts later.

This guy is a barbarian who does not live amongst the civilized people. He is free and he is a warrior. He doesn't live under citified rules and some such. As far as he's concerned, the city folk should all be dead just because they are too weak to fend for themselves. Yes it's a narrow minded vision, but it's his vision. Just like our vision of barbarians are big, stupid, and well... barbaric. All he knows is that he's spent the majority of his life doing what he can to survive and to help his people survive. That's it. And if takes joining up with a bunch of people he wouldn't dare in his right mind join up with typically, then he'll do it just to help rid the land of these gnolls. He doesn't hate anyone.

So just to be clear on his intent... his only intention is to aid in killing the gnolls and whatever other creature happens to get in the way towards accomplishing that goal. He's not so stupid as to where he's just gonna go running in all half cocked. He's actually intelligent. This is who Zerekias's is. Again he's not out to sabotage the whole system.

This means that they are to have no control over him, despite their presence and mission being the only reason he has any chance of helping to liberate the town. If he chooses to do something foolish, such as reveal the group's presence early, or gets captured and reveals anything about their intentions to attack the town, their plan is screwed. They loose all the money they invested, AND, if they don't know their plan has been compromised, they risk walking into an ambush and dying with all of the other people they hired.

Isn't this all conjecture? Odds are, if he's get captured, he gets dead. The end. Let's flip it the other way. Couldn't you say what if one of the paid members of the group gets captured? Or do something foolish? Just because they are getting paid, does that mean that they won't talk or screw up or whatever? It's DnD. It's all a roll of the dice, isn't it?

Edit: Per Tarin: I am all for team playing. But to compromise who he is means he might as well be dead. I really don't feel I'm being too destructive within the thread only because he refuses to take orders. And yes he is point blank towards the others which comes across as a jerk, I understand that. But I do not feel like his detrimental to this group. He's just not Mr. Personality. And as a side note he does have a 5 Charisma. I like to play my attributes close to the vest as possible(sometimes it's tough though) and I've used the scarface bit already.

I mentioned another Legacy thread to Storm in the pm: DM DAN E's thread. There's this halfling barbarian that is far more stubborn than Z. Yet now she's 6th level(I think anyway) and still rolling. So I know it is possible for pc like this to be played. It's just a matter of whether a guy like this can be tolerated by the others or not.

I think this is a good group and I've actually had fun with it. But if this is what it's gonna come down to, there's no sense in me hanging around. Like I said, I refuse to be a part of a game if the others think I'm ruining it. I WILL NOT be that guy. And if this is what he is, then it's time for me to move on. I got no hard feelings.

I have a very similar character in a Kingmaker game right now, and she's eaten a lot of sh*t for it. Same exact situation, she's basically said "I'm not accountable to anyone except this NPC I swore an oath to. I'll listen to y'all but I'm not gonna follow your orders." to the other PCs.

That's why I tried to get Almah to let Muqaq deal with him, because I understand where you're coming from and as long as you worked with the group I wouldn't have made any sort of issue about it. -shrug-

Whether to stay or go is ultimately your call. I'm not booting you or Zerekias from the game, and I am always willing to discuss any issues that come up. If you feel that I have not adequately taken your feelings into account, either here or in the private message conversation, I apologize. My goal here has always been to make things fun. I have no problem with people playing their character, and I for one would not ask you to change the character to suit a particular metagame goal. While Tarin's suggestion could potentially work, i feel that no one should be forced to change their character, and that there are in-character solutions that could work just as well, or better. That being said, actions lead to consequences, and Zerekias now finds himself in a ideological dilemma. While being independent is all well and good, it has extremes that can cause in-game issues such as this. Even wolverine takes orders when he has to. I am not suggesting you change the character, just noting that there is variation even within the concept. I've talked about various solutions in PM, and I'd be open to others if you have ideas. Sometimes a characters in-character decisions might cause them to leave the group for one reason or another, or even choose death over dishonour, but even then, I would hate to loose the player as a result.

In the end I would rather you and Zerekias both stay, but if you choose to go, no hard feelings. I will chalk it up to a runaway misunderstanding, perhaps due to the whole text only aspect of this game. I would feel it unfortunate that it couldn't be worked out, but trust that there was no malice intended on either side.

I'm not a big fan of anti social character, mostly because I've seen it done so poorly so many times. Slapping a low Charisma on a character and playing them as a jerk is the laziest thing in the world. It seems Zerekias has some depths, although being as antisocial as you are we will probably never learn them.

Xanyon has no trouble calling Zerekias out on his behavior because as far as he's concerned Zerekias is a jerk plain and simple. Part of roleplaying is to explore these interactions as the evolve, quitting would deny us that chance, but again if your stance is "I'm playing this character my way and there's no way he'd ever work with the group" then I just don't understand why he's trying to help at all.

Because DnD has never been about characters joining up and fighting for a cause without having to get paid for it, has it Jelani? Who's ever heard of a group of folks banding together and ridding the land of a common foe without the promise of money? Shocking, I know. *rolls eyes*

The problem with this is your motives are not money, but they also don't seem to be banding together to fight for a cause.

I don't think that the fact that they're paying us is the reason that Almah and company think that we will be obedient and not cause problem - it is because we have agreed (verbally) to a contract with her. It is her mission and she has hired some people to get it done. I think it would be unfair to her character (and that of her sidekicks) to make it so that she is fine with one of her crew being outright subordinate; she is a shrewd businesswoman. I think Zerekias could easily have said "Whatever" in the room with Almah and she would have had no reason to make an issue of it - then we were on our way he could have made it clear to Muqaq that he wouldn't be following orders and I'm pretty sure Muqaq wouldn't have fussed about it.

I, too, hope that Zerekias will stick with the game, but understand if you don't think your character would stay in this situation.

I'm not a big fan of anti social character, mostly because I've seen it done so poorly so many times. Slapping a low Charisma on a character and playing them as a jerk is the laziest thing in the world. It seems Zerekias has some depths, although being as antisocial as you are we will probably never learn them.

No more lazy than a scarred face. In my opinion, it takes more effort to play a pc with a low charisma than one who is ugly. But I guess we will have to agree to disagree there.

And as far as antisocial, that's where it takes time and players who have the ability to deal with it come in. And it's apparent to me, you do not. Fair enough.

Xanyon has no trouble calling Zerekias out on his behavior because as far as he's concerned Zerekias is a jerk plain and simple. Part of roleplaying is to explore these interactions as the evolve, quitting would deny us that chance, but again if your stance is "I'm playing this character my way and there's no way he'd ever work with the group" then I just don't understand why he's trying to help at all.

Again, you have no understanding of this character at all. Yes, part of roleplaying is to explore these interactions as they evolve. And in a pbp that takes TIME. And yes I will play my character my way. To play someone else's way doesn't make it MY character, does it? But there again, I never said I would not work with the group, did I?

The problem with this is your motives are not money, but they also don't seem to be banding together to fight for a cause.

My motives are to aid in ridding the land of gnolls and to help those who are also willing. How is that not banding together to fight a cause?

It's funny, because Zerekias refuses to take orders, that means he's against everyone. He's here to bring the house down around the place. I really don't understand that line of thinking. He's more than willing to help in getting rid of the gnolls. Isn't that what the beginning of this is all about?

Anyway, it's apparent this is not going to work. Just the wrong folks to be running this type of pc with. Like I said, I ran him a couple years back and I had no problems. Was he a jerk? Yes. But the folks playing rolled with it and had fun with it. Unfortunately, the DM had to call it quits due to time constraints. It was fun though.

Just so you know, after a time, Zerekias would eventually soften up. Not saying he was gonna be Mr. Go get 'em dude, but a bit easier to deal with. But it appears patience within this group is lacking.

It is what it is.

Thanks, Storm. 'Preciate the opportunity. If you would, hide the thread for me. Thanks.

As I said, Javell, I wish you would stay, but I've said what I can to try and convince you, so I think from here it is best to just respect your expressed wishes.

Not sure I can hide the thread from you (I think you do that on your side, clicking hide) by I will remove Zerekias and your name from the active player/character lists as you've requested.

Even given the issues that came up with Zerekias, I wish you'd consider staying with us, as another traveller, having heard about Garavel's caravan leaving a day before him could have been travelling through the desert trying to catch him, and would be just now entering our camp.

Any requests for how Zerekias' exit is handled? With a clap of thunder, a small gust of wind, or by the sword? The least I can do is see you out respectfully.

Having played exactly this kind of character I would say I understand exactly where you're coming from. If you're looking for an excuse to leave I'm not going to argue against it any more but you've basically twisted everything I said into the opposite of what I meant.

There's a way to send the thread to my inactive list. Otherwise it'll be 3 months before it disappears.

As far as exit, just have him leave is fine with me.

Take care Javell; see you around the forums. Hope we get other chances to play together again.

As far as anyone else is concerned, I would like to avoid any disparaging remarks about the departed, as while it may not have happened in the preferred way, the issue has been settled.

That being said, I would always like to maintain an open dialogue with the group and the players, because I want everyone to be having fun, and having a character railroaded, or arbitrarily killed is never fun. Conflict between players or players and GM is never fun either.

I'm interested in feedback here as to what might be done to make sure the group retains its fun atmosphere, and that we avoid any interpersonal conflicts or disagreements in the future. Constructive criticism is invited.

As for myself I'm having a good time. Xanyon is a young half-orc from a society of dwarven gun makers and people who distrust magic. He is used to be told what to do and working in a group, so right now he has very little individual initiative. He works for the group but his entire goal is a personal one and that's very scary to him. Eventually he'll start to assert himself, much like he did with the scorpion cave, but for now he will usually fade into the background unless there is a clear goal to achieve.

I like all of the other characters so far, I think we haven't come together yet but then there haven't been that many posts. As our personalities come out and the chance for role playing occurs it'll get smoother.

No complaints here. As I said, you're a great writer and these things are bound to come up.

As a general note to all, I wanted 6 players in the group, but recruited 7 as I couldn't make myself eliminate any of the last remaining interesting characters, and the player's behind them that had piqued my interest. 7 also allowed for a little attrition, if someone dropped out early. I didn't expect thing happen quite this way, but regardless, we are prepared. As a result, I do not intend to replace Zerekias, but rather continue on with 6.

6 is more than enough for most hazards, the key loss here being that you no longer have a dedicated melee frontman. Tarin and Seif will both be able to do the point job, but it is possible that neither will be quite as good at it as a straight combat class (without maxing your buffs anyways). Just food for thought as we move forward.

I'm willing to rebuild Xanyon as a melee tanker, I really like the gunslinger but if the group needs something different I can change a few things around. I've found the eidolon to be a very good melee tank but I don't know Sati's intention.

Lolz, now I'm kinda wishing I had a flowing monk instead of a monk of the empty hand, they lose the stunning fist, but get extra AC for every enemy around them.

I don't think any rebuilding is needed, just a change in mindset and perhaps preparation. That being said, I don't usually mind rebuilds if they A: are done at level one, while you are still getting a feel for the character, or B: come at a logical break in the game where retraining makes sense in game and in the storyline.

I too have seen eidolon's used to great effect as a tanker; a complete lack of a fear of death, and being able to dip into their summoner's HP pool to keep fighting both make them pretty attractive in that regard.