Nice dream sequence there Muqaq.
Level 2:
+1 Level of Oracle
+10 hp
+1 BAB
+1 Will
Skills: +1 Diplomacy, +1 Intimidate, +1 Knowledge(History), +1 Knowledge(Planes), +1 Knowledge(Religion), +1 Perception, +1 Spellcraft, +1 UMD
Spells Known: +1 Orison (Enhanced Diplomacy); Mystery spell (1st): Endure Elements
Spell Slots: +1 1st level
I'm leveled up too, details are in the sheet. Let me know if you have any questions.
Multi-classing to Oracle. I didn't see that coming. There is great synergy for the two classes, but it is still a surprise. Are you thinking of a Mystic Theurge kind of thing?
No, just a dip. I'm pretty sure I stated from the beginning that's what I was going to do. That's why I took the holy symbol as my special item, and Muqaq's mother was an oracle of Sarenrae. I'll be taking the rest of my levels as Sorcerer.
Cool. I either missed that or simply forgot about it.
What array are we able to use for our new characters, DM? Starting to stat up my paladin now.
Hi folks. I've got a build for an archer paladin, but as noted in the spoiler I'm more than happy to convert him to a frontliner if that would be better for the party. Here's what I've got so far
Human Divine Hunter paladin of Sarenrae (archer).
He's got (assuming I get the same array Tarin had):
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 17 (human bonus)
Feats: precise shot (bonus: archetype), point blank shot, rapid shot (bonus: human)
I'm tossing up between gnoll hunter and missionary for my campaign trait, as they both apply to my backstory, which is currently a sketch but I'll expand upon over the weekend. Essentially, both of his parents were adventurers, his father a wizard and his mother a paladin, both devotees of Sarenrae. The were both killed helping the Divine Vigil of Solku battle gnolls, and so the order took in the late itinerant adventurers' son. He has grown up a child of the order, and was treated as everyone's own child. As such, he is a very positive, genial character; though he is devout in his faith, his optimism helps him see the good in almost everyone, and he feels little need to convert or preach. He is very confident and content with who is is, but this has the effect of making him happy to follow orders, as he feels he has little to prove. He has grown up seeing himself as a tool of his goddess, and wishes only to destroy irredeemable evil, and protect those that need it.
Is it worthwhile buying a horse? He will only have medium armour at this stage (avoiding pesky Dex caps), and if he has a mount he will have both short and long bows, plus a falchion.
I'm happy to convert him to a two-hander if a frontliner is more necessary - that will only involve dropping the archetype, switching Str for Dex and reselecting melee feats.
Edit: If I went to melee build, I'd probably take up the oath of vengeance and worship both Torag and Sarenrae. The contrast of easy-going yet vengeful would make for an interesting character.
Play what you wanna play. I think both builds would bring the appropriate amount of heat.
Hi there, new boy checking in!
Just a question DM, I see in your house rules that the bastard sword is finessable when wielded two-handed in a character is proficient in greatsword. Is that correct? If so, is a bastard sword finessable when used one-handed?
Either way, it's great to be able to use a bastard sword for once! I have never, ever taken exotic w.p. to be able to use it, but seeing as archer boy here has a buckler, it will give me options when I get into melee.
Also, I pretty much always roll age, height and weight randomly, unless I have a very specific physical concept in mind. As it turns out, I've got a 6'3" 16 year old. That's going to be a challenge to play - 16 is half my age :)
Anyhoo, backstory and such will go up over the next couple of days - helio, did you still want to tie in? I'm thinking we could have met somewhere near Solku? Let me know what you think.
Yes I still did.
I'm thinking after the split, I've been trying my hand at what I know - trading. However, since I focused more on the logistic aspect of trading (what, when, how to get there) and not the social aspect of it (bargaining, charming, and diplomacizing to get contracts), I'd have looked around for someone with those kind of skills who knew the lay of the land.
I'd have chosen Solku as my trading post because it was not on the usual route of my father's trading company, and therefore I'd be less likely to run into them.
I figure we've made a decent team so far, with a few successful trips under our belt, and we've fended off some gnoll raiders and human bandits. Our most recent trip is to bring out a load of goods to the taciturn taskmaster Garavel, and we're on our way to their camp from Solku with a horse & cart.
Also, since Gruthic would consider you a young whipper-snapper (even though he's only just barely an adult himself, in dwarven age), he's probably been trying to show Akhom how Sarenrae is the deity of impetuous youth, whereas Torag has the the path to mature transcendance. Some friendly rivalry is what I have in mind with that, since both our characters have well founded faith and are educated on the subject.
Let me know what you think.
Okay, that all sounds good to me. I can see Akhom being a good negotiator, while Gruthic is the brains (and boss) of the operation. I'm thinking about taking a rank in Linguistics to speak Dwarven, which would mean than unless we were bartering with dwarves we'd usually be able to communicate secretly in Dwarven.
I like it that we're both LG - it means that our deepest philosophies strongly align, as does the way we see the world and the way we wish it to be. I like the religious rivalry angle a lot, too.
I'll get a backstory up in a few hours.
Also, I could see us stopping over at Fort Longjaw on the way, and perhaps getting trapped there by a surprise force of gnolls, and we were required, by both necessity and inclination, to help disperse the hyena-heads. Would explain being level 2 (not that we really have to), and will give us a connection to Giana, the leader of the fort.
Also, any ideas on how we met? Perhaps you were well-known at the Lambent Citadel in Solku as a yearly visitor, and have seen Akhom grow up from a small boy to a large youth.
Thinking...
Huh. While writing up Akhom's backstory and trawling the net for info on the Battle of Red Hail, I've discovered that it has many parallels to that of Seelah the Iconic. I'm tempted to change it in the interest of uniqueness, but I kind of like it, so I think I'll just continue on with it. Just so you all know I'm not just being lazy and ripping off an Iconic's backstory!
Sounds good. I've incorporated it and updated the story. Also, I bought a wagon, cart, and trade goods.
Gruthic was born in the back of a wagon on the dust-choked road between Ipeq and Eto in the sweltering land of Osirion to a family of merchants. His father's clan, the Shalebreakers, along with the Rockcrusher, Stonecleaver, and Earthshaker clans, operate the sucessful Solid Stone Trading Company, which trades all over northern Garund. Their caravans reach as far south as magnificent Nex, up through Katapesh and Osirion, and west through Thuvia and Rahadoum. The company's main stops are Katapesh, Quantium, Ipeq, Eto, Sothis, Aspenthar, Merab, Manaket, and Azir. These cities are mostly port cities, so the route follows the coastline.
In the early decades of his life, he would ride the caravans - sometimes with his father, sometimes with other members of his extended family. On those journeys, he learned much about the world. He learned about trade, about travelers and theives, about bandits and bargains, and about the deserts, mountains, hills, and rivers that their routes encompassed. He learned to hold a blade, handle the horses, plot a trail, ford streams, forage, spot danger, and secure coinage and goods.
His favorite person to ride with was great-uncle Rimbras Stonecleaver. Though much advanced in years, Rimbras still ran his route with an iron fist. He arrived on time, with goods intact. But it was not for Rimbras' mercantile skills that Gruthic so loved to ride along - it was for his stories. Rimbras knew more about the world than anyone else he knew. He learned about the natural world and the things that live in and under it. He learned that thier families had not always been merchants. He learned the history of their clans, of their triumphs and their defeats. He learned of their enemies, their grudges. And, he learned of Tar-Ukatka. Known as Zolurket - "the Dark Death" to the locals in Katapesh, he learned of the vast wealth the earth once held there, and how the greed and stupidity of his ancestors brough a curse upon the place and cast out the dwarves forever from it.
He learned as well that not all dwarves venerate the Master of the First Vault. While Abadar led his family's clans to great wealth, other dieties existed, equally worthy of veneration. He learned of Torag, the Father of Creation, the creater of dwarvenkind.
Great-Uncle Rimbras would often take his wagon off the main route, to inland towns and cities. Not as profitable or as efficient as the main route, but still worthwhile. It was on these trips that Gruthic came to Solku, and was introduced to the Dawn Vigil. It was one of Rimbras' many lessons on the variety of faith, and Gruthic met many people there, including the orphan Akhom.
With each new piece of knowledge he learned, his mind and world expanded. He began to concieve of a future outside of the caravans and roads, and this brought him into conflict with his father. As firstborn, he was expected, obligated to inheirit. He was being groomed to succeed, to be master of the Shalebreaker caravan someday. He obliged always, but his heart was uncertain. His relationship with his father grew increasingly strained. They would argue fiercely, and then spend days in stubborn silence while the wheels ate up the road.
One winter, when the routes seemed especially dangerous, and the coins not as plentiful as usual, things came to a head. Gruthic caught wind of an argument between his father and Rimbras, and barged in univited. His father was berating Rimbras for filling his son's head with nonsense, and Rimbras was giving as good as he got. So potent was the anger and tension in the room that Gruthic could scarcely draw breath. He stood their, mute, while the two men shouted at eachother. In the end, it was too much for Rimbras, and he collapsed as his heart gave out.
Gruthic rushed to his side, but the old man was already dead. He stood, staring death at his father and left the camp without another word. He has traveled far since that fateful parting, trying to carry on the legacy left to him by Rimbras. To explore the world, to right ancient wrongs, to live for something more than gold.
After Rimbras died, Gruthic spent a couple of months traveling trying to decide what to do with himself. Eventually he decided to turn to what he knew, and go into buisness trading. Remembering his uncle's fondness for the place, and still curious about the mystery of Zolurket, he chose Solku as an out-of the way location where he could live and not run into other members of his family.
He got himself settled, supplied, and opened his business. He had a wagon, a mule, and goods, but no customers. Things were not looking good for him, as the weeks drug by and his purse shrank steadily. About out of patience and in a foul mood, he was walking along in a scowling hurry when he ran straight into a giant of a lad. Picking himself up from the dusty street, his insult died on his lips when he recognized the boy - Akhom had grown by inches since he last saw him and now towered to nearly twice his height.
After sitting down and catching up over a meal, he learned of Akhom's divine calling, and explained his own plight to the boy. A partnership was formed, and soon they were taking the wagon out on regular trips, ferrying all manner of useful things into the countryside.
To answer a question from a ways back that I missed, the bastard sword would be finesseable when being two handed only. The idea is that since it is lighter than a great sword, but still used two handed, it would be able to be moved faster. My house rules would allow a finesseable bastard sword if you used a mithril sword, as ling as you were both proficient in longswords and had a Str of at least 13.
Okay, I'll put a mithral bastard sword on my wishlist :)
Actually, I was thinking I need to pick on something different next. Maybe beards...
I'll be out till Monday.
Something you guys can get in on if you're bored. A short, overpowered one shot.
Something you guys can get in on if you're bored. A short, overpowered one shot.
For some reason this didn't ping on my campaign page... Only just noticed it, looks like a helluva lot of fun! I don't really have time to play anyway, but I'd love to give something like this if you ever do a similar thing again.
Love your ideas Stormwind.
Finding traps has nothing to do with rogue skills. It's just a perception check. We wouldn't be able to disarm anything that we found, but her taking 20 and giving us a 27 should tell us if there's one there and only costs us two minutes of game time.
"Well if we now have a potent weapon for good, all the better. Any objections on returning to camp now?"
Listen to this guy!
I'm going to be moving over the next few days, and things are going to be busy. As a result, I may not be able to post, or at least, not often. Things should be back to normal by after the long weekend.
Blech. Good luck with the move!
How's the move going DM?
Back at work as of this morning. I'll try to have the next post up soon.
As for the move, it was painful. I hate moving. With a passion. So many fricken boxes, and now I still have no idea where anything is. Don't ever move if you can help it. I hope it is a long time before I ever have to do it again. Seems like the amount of stuff you have increases exponentially with the size of your household, so a four bedroom house hold 16 times as much stuff as a 1 bedroom apartment.
Thankfully I've got some good friends who were willing to help me out, and my father in law came from out of town to help with the move, so I'm lucky that way. Never could have pulled it off otherwise.
I haven't had the misfortune of moving house for about 10 years, but the very thought sends chills down my spine. Friends and family have indeed been my saviours on more than one moving day.
Good luck with locate object for the next week or so!
To all, but to Xanyon most specifically, I have been thinking for a while about how to address the many issues encountered with the present system of Firearms in the Pathfinder setting, and come up with a few ideas for house rules.
Have a look and tell me what you think. These would not necessarily be incorporated into this campaign unless Xanyon was in favour, as our resident Gunslinger.
That's a pretty hard nerf to firearms and Gunslingers. At 20th level I'd go from 6 shots (haste and rapid shot) a round with 19-20/x4 crit doing 1d8 (+ mods) to...1 shot doing 1d8 (+ mods).
I guess the real question becomes what issues does this solve? I've heard the argument about realism and in a game where a wizard can summon demons and a rogue can stand in the middle of a ball of earth shattering meteors and not be hurt, shooting a gun really fast doesn't seem to really break anything that I've seen.
I've also seen the threads about Gunslingers loading up on 6 shot pepper boxes and firing 18+ shots a round. That's an issue easily resolved by asking your player not to be a cheese eating munchkin (which I had no intention of doing anyway).
TL;DR: While I get what these changes might be trying to accomplish they fix a problem I wasn't planning on creating, so I'd rather not see them implemented in this game.
Interesting that you see it as a nerf, I thought the changes at a whole represented a significant increase in power. By the TL;DR I take it you didn't get to the later parts. Take a look when you get time and you might change your mind.
I saw the Modifications and Feats and Equipment section but without access to Intermediate and Advanced Firearms I'm still restricted to one shot a round at best. That's a pretty massive downgrade in ability.
From an initial read over biggest thing that sticks out to me is there's no way to actually get that free action reload. Making non metal cartridge firearms completely useless for anyone with a BAB of 12+. They can of course switch to advanced firearms, but those are not available in all campaigns, and are very expensive, and require a new set of feats to be taken to be used to their full potential, when presumably the PC will have been using primitive firearms from level 1-12.
I didn't get down past the new equipment charts yet, but the rest looks good so far. It's an easy fix too. Simply remove swift action from the chain of steps. Goes from a move to a free, like the original rapid reload. With a possible caveat that muzzle-loaders can never go below a move.
If muzzle-loaders can't go below move then that still restricts the PC to one shot a round. I think the changes are well done but the reload restriction is unnecessarily harsh. A crossbowman can winch, load, and fire his crossbow 5+ times a round but a guy with a gun can't?
You have a good point about crossbowmen; it's no more realistic with them to reload so quickly than it is for a musketeer, just more obvious in the latter case I guess. Most people think they have an idea how long in takes to load a musket from the movies that depict it, but very rarely is the proper loading procedure for a crossbow shown. They are usually light crossbows like on Walking Dead that can be reloaded by hand, without tools.
The background on this was a discussion in another thread lamenting how firearms are not just unrealistic in Pathfinder (like everything else, demon summoning included), but implausible. Again this is likely due to people having seen a musket loaded in the movies and knowing it takes far longer than a standard action.
The feedback is good, that no matter how implausible, Free action loading should probably be achievable for the sake of equality with crossbows. However, take note that i increased the firepower of firearms significantly with the increase in the critical threat range. The idea was in fact that a firearm be able to do as much in a single attack as a crossbow does in a volley. Also if you take the Touch AC thing into consideration, it is already obvious that crossbows and firearms are not equal. Consider a heavy crossbow: rapid reload takes the reload time down to a move action and then a second feat is needed to get it down to a free action. That, and it doesn't get to hit touch AC.
With these rules, imagine Vital strike and Improved Critical as a potential combo. They don't stack, but you would still be doing 2x damage every attack, plus critting as much as 30% of the time! Add a STR bonus in there with the enlarged chamber option, dex to damage from your class feature, and then a specialty ammo, and crits would be pretty sweet. And firing once per round is a lot more believable than rapid shot with a muzzle loader.
Two more points: A) i actually intend for Intermediate or advanced firearms to become an option eventually (an I allow retraining of feats to suit a new weapon) and B) that much of the document can be used piecemeal. The crit range complements the rate of fire change, but we wanted, those could be left out and just the new firearms, feat, equipment and such could be used.
Again, thanks for the feedback. The fact that you're playing a Gunslinger right now and I am not means that you will see implications of changes that I will not, which is exactly why I wanted your opinion.
Happy to provide feedback. Just a few more free form thoughts on the matter. Ultimately it's your game and if you want to try these rules out we can do that.
From my reading it looks like the damage would become very bursty. Most things in Pathfinder aren't plausible or realistic and being reduced to one attack until I find an intermediate or advanced firearm would be frustrating.
Singling out firearms for a more realistic treatment feels like a trap to me. In the real world there are many types of firearms for different applications. I wouldn't use an anti-material rifle to hunt deer any more than I would use a .223 to take out the engine block of a truck. That really doesn't apply in Pathfinder. My objective is to destroy something and if it's a gnoll, giant scorpion, door, or dragon the best way to do that is to get the biggest barrel on the longest range gun I can find due to the way hardness and hit points are designed.
With the rules as they are there are still multiple ways I could go with Xanyon. Pistol and sword, musket and scope, shield w/ pistol in it and sword, two pistols, shotgun. Some of these might not be the greatest options but I wouldn't feel I was crippling myself by taking them.
I guess in the long run when I've seen barbarian, rogue, and paladin builds dishing out 100s of damage a turn having a pistol doing 1d8+8+2d6 (Deadly Aim PBS +1 Holy) 19-20/x4 (Improved Crit) a couple of times a round doesn't seem that overpowering even hitting touch AC.
You can't bring realism into rules considerations without redoing the whole system from the ground up. Yeah, covering your body in 60 pounds of metal plate armor makes you harder to hit...sure.... Firing two arrows at once with any hope of accuracy...riiiight....Photons emitted from torch flames stop after exactly 20 feet...mmmmhmmmm....
So hopefully understanding the fact the game is not, and never can be "realistic" lets compare the actual effect of the rules numbers wise.
Lets give a gunslinger a lever action rifle at level 12. It's eating up a huge chunk of character wealth 12k, with no enchantments. We're human, and we've taken Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, weapon focus, improved critical, vital strike, improved vital strike, rapid reload.
We're attacking at (rapid shot) +10/+10/+5/+0 for (1d8+dex+30% of an extra 4.5 damage) each shot. That and I have to spend my swift action every two turns reloading. Or I can hit for (vital strike, deadly aim) +9 (3d8+dex+6+30% of an extra 4.5 damage). First option is obviously more damage.
Normal rules guy would be a musket master with alchemical cartridges. He's rocking an enchanted musket, still attacking at +10/+10/+5/+0 (+ whatever enchantment, so we can afford to deadly aim) but for 1d12+dex+6+5% chance of an extra 26 damage (.3*4.5=1.35 .05*26=1.3, so either crit range is almost exactly the same for average damage). He never needs to spend a swift for reloading. He also doesn't need vital strike, improved vital strike or crit focus. He can take far shot, shot on the run or whatever else.
So yeah, it is a nerf. Not to mention the fact that a competent archer will have the ability to fire in melee range, put out more damage per round from a longer range and have nearly the same hit percentages with no chance of misfire ever or any feats wasted on reloading. So why did anyone switch over to guns in the first place? Yeah a relatively untrained guy will hit better with a gun than a bow, so their invention make sense. Just doesn't make sense for highly skilled individuals like PCs to make the switch.
Lastly my point still stands that even the fastest reloading of your proposed firearms cannot be reduced to a free action with the feat. Which makes it pointless to have that bit about free actions in there. It should go directly from move to free, like the original feat.
Ah well, it was worth a shot. Sometimes you have to see if the rules can be improved, and sometimes what they have already is the best compromise (so far). You certainly have a point that there are many unrealistic components to the game, and even when one seems more in your face, you may still have to simply live with it.
Though none of this was meant for this game and was more of a rules exercise I will have to see what might still be worth introducing. Obviously, the revised loading time will be dropped, but that means the revised crit range will also have to be dropped. 3x damage on three numbers was a huge increase, and it was meant to offset the disadvantage of the reload time. Your calculations on that part did not take all the variables into account i think. The factors for the potential damage would be the same in both cases for a single shot with the same gun (dex+deadly aim, etc.) so a 15% chance of x3 damage vs. a 5% chance of x4 damage represents a 1.45 vs. 1.2 average damage. I still like the idea of changing the crit range somehow, but how to implement it well needs more thought.
The new weapons, modifications, and items could be made available without any trouble, as I believe they're pretty balanced with bow options, and add a lot of character to the possibilities.
Yeah, I like all the guns. They are sweet. I actually like your crit range idea. Guns should crit very often I think. The reloading thing is just well...meh. It's a relic of the system.
I'm just waiting for the introductions and such to play out before continuing on with the scouting op.
@Akhom - Longbows have x3 crits.
Right you are! I did know that - even so, I think it's irrelevant after my confirmation roll...
I'll be heading to a convention this afternoon, I'll return Sunday afternoon.
Have fun!
Will be busy this weekend. Not likely to post.
Gruthic will go along with any plan that isn't a direct assault on the village. He's willing to sneak, scout, and ambush, and will advocate for additional surveillance & guerrilla tactics.
If Ahkom can 5' step to the side and shoot, Gruthic can move in front and set his Tower Shield as a standard action, giving himself Total Cover from the east, and those behind him Cover.
If Ahkom keeps moving to the side, he will get clear shots at the gnolls, while Gruthic will keep the defensive screen moving in front of him.
Sati can also fire her crossbow and move behind Akhom, so she is protected as well by the formation, tasking Mogweir to dispatch the hyenas once they reach melee range.
Xanyon, Seif, and Muquaq can do something similar to the north. These gnolls won't know what hit them!
It's been eight days since we heard from Seif, and five from Sati :(
I'm beginning to think we've lost Seif. Hope not though.
I'll drop Sati an email. She's doing research for the University as a part of her Ph.D program, so she's pretty busy. She's keen, and wants to keep up with it long term; she just won't be a frequent poster.
I'll be flying to Florida for a work conference tomorrow, I'll be returning on the 14th. I'll be able to post in the evenings but morning and afternoons will be busy.