My 1st thought would be the Warlord Fighter Archetype, and Sword Devil Ranger Archetype from the Worldscape comics. They may need some slight tweaking.
During that period the actual Spartans did wear armor. Hollywood never gets the armor worn right.
The Brawler is how you do it, if you are being true to historical periods. As Mysterious Stranger said, Spartans did wear armor. If you want to forgo armor entirely, dip a level of monk or ninja, though you are making the character more MAD than necessary. Take Shield Focus and Unhindering Shield if you want to keep your Monk AC bonus while using the shield.
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Yeah, but this is Pathfinder. It includes basically nothing in the rules that is remotely historically accurate. It's a fantasy game. For making fantasy bare chested warriors. Except pathfinder seems to only support bare chested warriors if they don't use a shield.
Warlord and sword devil have the same wording as monk. They don't work if you use a shield.
Yeah, you could wear bracers of armor, but why would you? I'm looking for the reason to use bracers of armor over just wearing armor, because just wearing armor is superior in almost every case. Class features, feats, something, anything. It might not be possible. Classes that don't have any armor proficiencies also have some penalties for using shields as far as I could find.
Any Dex based Martial is a good start, the Swashbuckler gets Added Ac every few levels, so does the Monk. There's the Kensai Magus which gets bonus AC.
if you pump Dex, it quickly out paces normal armor, it's just hard to have the STR to do a lot of damage, but not impossible.
Well, in the movie 300 there was one who was a bard, although he didn't cast spells, he boosted the morale of fighters like Leonidas. So a skald among the troops would be a good choice
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Light armor and light shield is totally doable/supported and not what I'm looking for.
Monk can't use a shield
Kensai can't use a shield
I suppose swashbuckler can, except you lose precise strike which is kind of a big penalty and most of the ways to get dex to damage don't work with a shield. Agile enchant would work, but that'd be many levels to suck before being able to afford it. Not too hard to get rid of the ACP for a shield so you can finesse a main hand without penalty.
What about less martial classes? Maybe some way to remove the spell failure for an arcane caster? Seems like you can do that with armor rather than shield though... Yeah, not looking promising.
If you have access to a copy, the old d20 Wheel of Time RPG has the Algai'd'siswai class (unarmored spear and buckler pseudo-monk).
If your group is OK with it, you could probably also modify the sohei archetype for the monk, removing light armor use, mounted combat feats from available bonus feats, and Monastic Mount for the ability to wield a buckler or light shield (possibly including variations like klar, madu, or throwing shield) without losing the monk AC bonus.
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I used to have that d20 wheel of time book, but that was long ago. I may end up writing my own archetype, but I Was hoping to find things in existing rules.
To clarify, the idea is to be a dude with a name like Claudius Manius Maximus, and never wear a shirt, because this is a silly fantasy game, not a historical reenactment game.
Bonus points if he can have some charisma too. Preferably western/Greek esque weapons, like a spear or sword.
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shield focus and then shield brace (which is what I imagine would look like to set your spear on your shield a-la 300) let you use a pole-arm or spear while using a shield (and say nothing about losing a hand on so you still count as two handed wielding for str and power attack).
If you want light armor and shield a brawler is the natural choice. They get a bonus to AC when using light or no armor but do not have the M.A.D. of the monk. You are not going to find a perfect fit but can probably make something work by using feats and race to get what you need. A half elf for example and trade away skill focus for proficiency in a martial or even exotic weapon. Or you could simply spend a feat to gain proficiency in the weapon you plan to use.
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During that period the actual Spartans did wear armor. Hollywood never gets the armor worn right.
To be fair, I don't think Frank Miller's graphic novel did either. What a
Greek hoplite was equipped with was:-ArmorHoplon (Shield): A large, heavy round shield made of wood faced with bronze that covered the body from chin to knee.
Helmet: Primarily the bronze Corinthian helmet which offered full facial protection, though some wore more open-faced variants for better hearing and sight.
Cuirass (Body Armor): Either a sculpted bronze "muscle cuirass" or a lighter linothorax made of multiple layers of glued or hardened linen.
Greaves: Molded bronze shin guards that snapped onto the lower legs.
Weapons: A 2-to-3-meter thrusting spear called a doru and a short secondary sword called a xiphos.
Weapons: A 2-to-3-meter thrusting spear called a doru and a short secondary sword called a xiphos.
At that time the armor would have been bronze.
Using a round shield in a phalanx was a dumb idea as you had to rely on the person to your right to cover your left breast. This left the poor bastard at the left end of the phalanx with an unprotected left breast, so they would turn to cover it. This happened on both sides, so the phalanxes tended to march past each other. Classical age Greeks were not always smart.
And Thermopylae (which translates as "hot gates") even gets a mention in TS Elliot-
"I was neither at the hot gates
Nor fought in the warm rain
Nor knee deep in the salt marsh, heaving a cutlass,
Bitten by flies, fought.
My house is a decayed house"
Honestly, I'd just build a Dex based fighter, go with no armor, Long sword and Medium shield. it won't be too difficult to have a Decent AC that way.
Then I'd look at a few of the Archetypes. Specifically:
Phalanx Soldier
Shielded fighter
Tower shield Specialist
Viking.
I especially like the Viking, whenever he is wearing medium, light, or no armor and using a shield, the Viking's shield bonus to AC increases by 1. At 7th, 11th, and 15th levels, this bonus increases by 1.
So that's a total +4 Bonus on top of what the shield gives you, plus you can pick up all the Shield feats.
Just a quick calc I was able to get the AC to 25 @ 20th lvl by pumping dex, picking a few shield feats, with a steel shield and no magic items. the Shield bonus alone was +8.
with plenty of feats left over. That's nothing to sneeze at.
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Again, I know I can just decide to use a shield and no armor on a character that could use armor, but what I'm looking for is any mechanical reasons to make that choice.
Like is it possible to get your dex up high enough that it's better to not use armor because of the max dex? (pretty sure the answer is no, it's not, especially as a fighter with the max dex cap increase)
And again, this is based on heroic imagery, not real armored hoplite, but the fantastical artist depiction of the heroic nude that was prevalent in Greco-Roman art. Because this is a fantasy game. Not a reality game.
Have you considered the haramaki as an armor that isn't quite armor? It would still leave you bare chested, but with your belly covered.
The shifter can get half wisdom to AC while using light armor and a shield. The weretouched archetype could look pretty cool, being a beastguy Spartan. The biggest problem would be no free sword proficiency, but a dip could fix that. The lack of metal armor is annoying but can be worked around.
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Again, I know I can just decide to use a shield and no armor on a character that could use armor, but what I'm looking for is any mechanical reasons to make that choice.
Like is it possible to get your dex up high enough that it's better to not use armor because of the max dex? (pretty sure the answer is no, it's not, especially as a fighter with the max dex cap increase)
And again, this is based on heroic imagery, not real armored hoplite, but the fantastical artist depiction of the heroic nude that was prevalent in Greco-Roman art. Because this is a fantasy game. Not a reality game.
The 'spear, shield, and no armor' image just isn't mechanically supported in PF1, which is a 'western medieval fantasy (with some far eastern options)' game at heart: Warriors without armor would probably be very common in a more African or middle-eastern* setting where heatstroke would be much more dangerous than any foe's attack, but it's just pretty hard to mechanically balance 'knights in full plate' vs. 'warriors in a loin-cloth' without breaking one or both options...
Like is it possible to get your dex up high enough that it's better to not use armor because of the max dex? (pretty sure the answer is no, it's not, especially as a fighter with the max dex cap increase)
Yes - Except for the fighter which gets the Dex Cap decrease, just about any other class, if it's a dex build, can get to a point that armor is actually a detriment. You'll start to see this around Dex 24, and it tops out at Dex 26. At Dex 26, you have a +8 AC bonus due to dex, and the maximum allowed by ANY armor is +8.
A 1st level character who maxes Dex starts with an 18, then can put their racial bons in it and have a 20. the 5 +1's due to level make 25, a Belt of Dex +4 is a 29. so somewhere in there, Armor becomes worthless, unless of course it's a fighter who gets the Dex Cap decrease.
I tend to play rogue/dex builds or various types, and I quite often wind up with no armor.
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Like is it possible to get your dex up high enough that it's better to not use armor because of the max dex? (pretty sure the answer is no, it's not, especially as a fighter with the max dex cap increase)
No-ish. (Subject to the specifics of your campaign, character, and preferences.)
Strictly answering the question "can you get your Dex Mod higher than your Armor Bonus + Max Dex?" - that's nearly impossible. A Mithral Chain Shirt gives you +4 armor and 6 Max Dex, so you would need a Dex Mod of +11 or better.
However there are all kinds of caveats. If you have a Dex Mod of +7 (easily reachable) then your touch AC would be higher without the armor. And if you have a friendly sorcerer casting mage armor on you, then your total AC would be higher than the chain shirt. But wait! You can enchant the chain shirt up to +5, so now the magic number is a +12 Dex Mod (plus mage armor) to be better. But wait! Maybe you can't afford the +5 Mithral chain shirt. The magic number is lower again. And dozens of other possibilities...
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I'm racking my brain trying to come up with any situation where there is any mechanical reason to use a shield but no armor. There are only four possibilities I can see, and here are the reasons why none of them apply.
1) You don't have proficiency in armor and don't want to spend a feat to get proficiency. But... haramaki and silken ceremonial armor exist.
2) You are an arcane caster. It's pretty cheap to remove the ASF chance from shields. But... haramaki and silken ceremonial armor exist.
3) You have a ludicrously high Dex Mod. But... haramaki and silken ceremonial armor exist.
4) Your class or archetype loses some features when wearing armor. But... I can't think of a single one where that is true that doesn't also lose features by using a shield.
Bracers of armor change the equation a bit. While haramaki and silken ceremonial armor can have a maximum total AC of +6, the bracers can go up to +8. However the armors can also have armor qualities added while if the bracers are at +8 you can't add anything else.
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Not really relevant to this game, but I seem to recall D&D5e Barbarians getting a 'add your Con Mod to AC if you aren't wearing armor' option while still being able to use a shield: I recall seeing posts about how broken this was, which always boiled down to 'we rolled for stats instead of using the default arrays and the Barbarian player rolled obscenely well...'
Mechanically, this is likely the best fit you are going to get for a 'Snyder Spartan' build, but you need good stats to make it work (not quite as MAD as a monk, but you still need all your physical stats to be really good).
Alternately, PF2e Monk with Mountain Stance would fit decently if the attack restriction were altered.
In terms of a Spartan:
--Consider a Bloodrager. Because:
--Sphinx bloodline gets to shout "THIS IS SPARTA!" and mechanically frighten many foes.
--Blood conduit or bloody knuckled rowdy archetypes both gain a mighty kick (improved unarmed strike) to have the ability for sparta kicking foes
--Blood conduit can even kick someone and do a tasty touch spell at the same time
--You are a martial, so you can go for whatever weapon
--You are a spellcaster from level 1, mage armor is on your list, grab a wand and have "I am protected by the power of my glistening abs" like effects.
--You can stack primalist on either, to get spartan appropriate rage powers
--And still be lawful, because bloodrager doesnt have alignment restrictions
--For extra fun, a few cavalier dips (disciple of the pike maybe?) add more pike specialisiations
--You have longarm, meaning you have reach with shorter then normal spears.
It will not be optimized, but it will be workable.
Don’t forget to factor in magic armor when you are comparing a DEX based character without armor to a character using armor. The enchantment bonus of armor is just as important as the base AC. The AC bonus of a +1 mithral chain shirt has a max AC bonus (including DEX) of +11 not +8. It costs a bit more than full plate but is a lot more effective. To achieve the same result with DEX alone is going to take a 32 DEX. The enchantment bonus is also what makes using a shield worth it. The +2 bonus for a large shield is ok, but when you factor in the enchantment bonus it becomes a lot more powerful.
Another benefit of using armor is that it can grant you abilities beyond just AC. Having an extra magic item slot that can give you things like energy resistance, bonuses to skills like stealth or acrobatics, damage reduction or spell resistance is also a benefit of wearing armor or using a shield.
So, if you are not wearing armor you will have a lower AC and have 1 fewer magic item slot available to the character. Some classes or archetypes can make up the AC bonus, but that does not give you the extra magic item slot.
Let's keep in mind that the fact that the Spartans didn't wear armor was something Hollywood added to give the 300 Spartans an image of military superiority.Secondly, the use of bronze weapons and armor was somewhat limited for that time; it could be said that the weaponry of that time came from trade. We cannot say that they used armor with mesh since that was created during the medieval period, not the classical era. I would say that they were more barbarians than soldiers (fighters) since the fighting aspect was on the part of those from Athens. To me, the Spartans are something like barbarians, skalds, and rangers.
Don’t forget to factor in magic armor when you are comparing a DEX based character without armor to a character using armor. The enchantment bonus of armor is just as important as the base AC. The AC bonus of a +1 mithral chain shirt has a max AC bonus (including DEX) of +11 not +8. It costs a bit more than full plate but is a lot more effective. To achieve the same result with DEX alone is going to take a 32 DEX. The enchantment bonus is also what makes using a shield worth it. The +2 bonus for a large shield is ok, but when you factor in the enchantment bonus it becomes a lot more powerful.
But you could spend the coin you would spend on +1 mithril armor and spend it on rings of protection, or amulets of natural armor, or bracers of armor, or belts of dex (or all of the above) etc. and be better than wearing the mithril +1 shirt. and most of them will apply to touch and possibly flat footed, plus the dex increase will help your initiative, skills, and possibly your to hit and damage as well.
once you get up in those realms, it's no longer a zero sum game, and other variables start to take precedence.
Armor/shields are cheapish to enchant for a reason.
There is also unhindering shield, which is essentially 2 feat slots (shield focus and unhindering shield itself) for +3 to howevermuch you enchant your buckler AC (assuming a +1 buckler at level 6+, which is very reasonable, +3 is kind of the base).
the reason it isnt picked as often is because shield the spell exists, and is fairly accessible.
To "overcome" the shield spell, the buckler needs to have a +3 enchantment on it, which isnt super expensive (9K) but it is a thing.
Don’t forget to factor in magic armor when you are comparing a DEX based character without armor to a character using armor. The enchantment bonus of armor is just as important as the base AC. The AC bonus of a +1 mithral chain shirt has a max AC bonus (including DEX) of +11 not +8. It costs a bit more than full plate but is a lot more effective. To achieve the same result with DEX alone is going to take a 32 DEX. The enchantment bonus is also what makes using a shield worth it. The +2 bonus for a large shield is ok, but when you factor in the enchantment bonus it becomes a lot more powerful.
But you could spend the coin you would spend on +1 mithril armor and spend it on rings of protection, or amulets of natural armor, or bracers of armor, or belts of dex (or all of the above) etc. and be better than wearing the mithril +1 shirt. and most of them will apply to touch and possibly flat footed, plus the dex increase will help your initiative, skills, and possibly your to hit and damage as well.
once you get up in those realms, it's no longer a zero sum game, and other variables start to take precedence.
Magic armor and shields are cheaper than any of those. A +1 mithral shirt costs 2,100 gp compared to 2,000 gp for a +1 ring, amulet ect.. The +1 mithral shirt gives you a +5 AC instead of +1. The game already assumes you are using other magic items to boost your AC. You could use bracers of AC of Armor instead of armor, but that uses up a wrist slot.
While the DEX based character does have a higher touch AC, his flat-footed AC is going to be lower.
Even if you get your AC up as high as someone wearing armor by other means that does not change the fact you have one less magic item slot. If you are also not using a shield that puts you down 2 slots.
The point where it becomes more advantages to not use armor is a lot higher than people in the thread are saying. Until your DEX bonus alone is higher than the combined AC of the armor (including enchantment bonus) and maximum DEX bonus of the armor you are usually better off using the armor. A character with a 28 DEX is still better of using a normal mithral chain shirt than not wearing armor. 30 DEX would be the point where the AC would not matter. If you bump the chain shirt to +2 the break-even point becomes 34 DEX.
There are a few edge cases where being mostly no armor is superior, for example if you have class features requiring you to be unarmored completely, when you are in a situation where wearing any kind of armor is not acceptable, or when you dumped str to a degree that even mithral chain shirts can get you into medium encumberance (for example if you get fatigued, and there are a few ways of inflicint that without a saving throw).
But like, Mithral shirts are just really good. And are an accessible source of fortification, and there are fairly cheap enchantments such as shadow to get very good at stealth.
At 24 DEX the DEX bonus is +7. A mithral chain shirt has a +4 armor bonus and a max DEX bonus of +4. Combined that equals +10. Add a +1 enchantment bonus and the total armor bonus goes up to 11, which raises the total AC bonus to 11. That matches the bonus of the 24 DEX + Mage Armor. Raise the enchantment bonus to +2 and the armor is still more beneficial even with a 24 DEX.
How is the martial character other than a bloodrager gaining mage armor? If they are relying on a magic item, it is only fair to allow the armor to have the equivalent gold to increase the enchantment bonus. Consumable magic items are expensive and create a constant drain on the characters resources.
Mage armor can also be dispelled and does not work in an antimagic field.
If the character is a fighter then armor training makes wearing armor even more optimal.
Ok so what is the meaning of you debate for armor in a Spartan question? What matters most in a warrior is not so much the equipment but their martial arts training (feats)I would say that the 300 Spartans focus more on the use of teamwork feat
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A non-magical mithril shirt costs the same as a wand of mage armor (50 uses) plus 14 scrolls of mage armor (64 total uses). Potion is a bit more expensive if your party has no magic users or UMD capables.
Mithril shirt would need to be +2 at level 1 to help in this scenario, +3 at level 5ish (+2 dex belt), +4 at level 8, +5 at level 11. None of those are plausible. Note that a Nimble Mithril Shirt does slightly better in these scenarios, but not enough that it would ever be the optimized use of your Wealth.
64 charges will be used up in a mere 4 days if you want protection from 'unplanned encounters' (ambushes or random encounters) during that time, and even that leaves you basically unprotected while sleeping. Additionally, 'Urban' ragers can boost their Dexterity up pretty high, but probably not for every encounter (at least at lower levels) and they don't naturally sync with 'dex to dmg' options either, so it will typically take a few levels for such a character to actually be effective (High AC plus low damage output leads to longer fights, which means more rounds of rage spent).
An 'all day long' 24 Dexterity isn't likely until level 8-ish, at which point you probably have access to +2 armors that push the 'no armor is generally better' to 28 Dexterity, which might be level 16-ish, by which point your armor enchants have probably gone up to +4 or so. You could take the gold you didn't spend on armor enchants and get rings/amulets, but the exponential pricing of magic items means you just can't keep up with an armor wearer who is also seeking AC (8k gold can get you +2 armor, a +1 ring, and a +1 amulet, or just a +2 ring).
Mithril Shirts are still pretty valuable, even for high dexterity builds, but starting with a 20 Dex probably means you dumped strength, possibly to the point that even this lightweight armor is just too much for you to wear...
On a separate note, I mentioned in an earlier post that a 'shield and no armor' style would be fairly common in warmer climates, but what you aren't likely to find is the 'shield and loincloth' look the OP is seeking, as such a warrior would likely be incapacitated by sunburn...
Could possibly wear glamoured armor. It says it makes your armor appear as clothing, but I would tend to allow it to make you appear as unclothed as well. Other GMs may not be so liberal though.
A miithral chain shirt is not the only option for a high DEX character. Dark Leaf studded leather would also be a good choice. It has a lower armor bonus but a higher max DEX bonus and is even cheaper. Parade Armor has the same stats as studded leather so that could also work.
Parade Armor might be the answer to the OP problem. Parade armor has no real defined look or even material. The description allows the armor to be nearly anything the player wants. There is no reason parade armor could not leave the chest bare to satisfy the aesthetics of the spartan armor from the movie.
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A miithral chain shirt is not the only option for a high DEX character. Dark Leaf studded leather would also be a good choice. It has a lower armor bonus but a higher max DEX bonus and is even cheaper. Parade Armor has the same stats as studded leather so that could also work.
While Dark Leaf armors are an option, they are never better (AC + Max Dex is never better than 10 for special material light armors), often worse (Dark Leaf Studded Leather is worse AC until 24 dexterity), and aren't really much cheaper (775g vs 1100g) than the classic Mithril Shirt: There is a reason this item has its own full 'magic armor (but not really)' entry.
Technically, Dark Leaf armors are slightly better against attacks that ignore armor when you have a 24+ Dexterity, but that is a fairly narrow niche.I have occasionally used Dark Leaf Lamellar(leather) to save a tiny bit of gold (though I'm uncertain if that combo is even legal) at low levels, but that was for characters that weren't actually pushing Dexterity to the limit and mainly wanted to save weight and eliminate armor check penalties.
Parade Armor might be the answer to the OP problem. Parade armor has no real defined look or even material. The description allows the armor to be nearly anything the player wants. There is no reason parade armor could not leave the chest bare to satisfy the aesthetics of the spartan armor from the movie.
Yeah, going to be kinda hard to convince people that a ceremonial loin cloth protects like a full suit of studded leather armor (exact same stats across the board): Even giving it the stats of an Armored Kilt would probably be generous.
Addendum:
The 'best' light armor option for anyone not pushing dexterity to the max is Mithril Agile Breastplate with its +6 armor and +5 Dex cap: 'Taja the Bloodrager*' used a set of this armor through almost the entirety of the last PF1e Runelord AP and it served her very well as she would actually hit dexterity 20 once she got the 'Transformation spell while raging' buff. It is, of course, more expensive at 4,400g and not really relevant to the OP's question...
I was thinking more of helm, kilt, bracers and greaves. It does not match the movie but is a reasonable compromise to keep the aesthetics of the movie while offering some protection.