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Thank you for participating in the Risks & Rewards Playtest! While we wait for the new daredevil and slayer classes to be released, get details on tweaks made from the feedback we received as well as some peeks into what lays in store for the new classes in today's blog!
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Im a little dissapointed so little was said compared to previous blogs considering how controversial this playtest was. I was interested to hear more about their plans for the classes. Its cool daredevil is getting more hp though I guess, thats neat.
I still really hope Slayer's Mark Quarry will be changed and their trophies will be made more interesting cuz both of those were really dissapointing to me in the playtest. Hopefully those fall under the changes that they didnt mention here but theyre still planning to make
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I still really hope Slayer's Mark Quarry will be changed and their trophies will be made more interesting cuz both of those were really dissapointing to me in the playtest. Hopefully those fall under the changes that they didnt mention here but theyre still planning to make
Yes, I'm very surprised Mark Quarry wasn't mentioned at all. I thought it was the most obvious thing that needed adjusting. While it could use some tweaks, On the Hunt is mostly fine as is.
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Thank you for participating in the Risks & Rewards Playtest! While we wait for the new daredevil and slayer classes to be released, get details on tweaks made from the feedback we received as well as some peeks into what lays in store for the new classes in today's blog!
Hey Maya,
Could this thread be put under the Pathfinder 2e forum? It could be easy to miss for someone like myself who hardly ever visits the front page, let alone any other Paizo forum. If you have a reason to keep it as is, that's fine too, just figured I'd ask. Thank you.
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As for the rest of the book these classes will be appearing in… Well, we still can’t give you more information about it yet, but let’s just say that it’s one you’ll really enjoy delving into!
Sounds like we're getting DUNGEON CORE!
Just for the bit, they should sell it and Draconic Codex as a set.
I hunger for more deets.
Im a little dissapointed so little was said compared to previous blogs considering how controversial this playtest was. I was interested to hear more about their plans for the classes. Its cool daredevil is getting more hp though I guess, thats neat.
I still really hope Slayer's Mark Quarry will be changed and their trophies will be made more interesting cuz both of those were really dissapointing to me in the playtest. Hopefully those fall under the changes that they didnt mention here but theyre still planning to make
Hard for them to provide details when they're still figuring out what changes to make with the classes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Slayer got a total overhaul. Its class features read more like an adventure subsystem than a chassis for a player character. Very little actual meat on its bones.
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More HP on the daredevil was a very easy and obvious fix, so I'm glad to see it out of the way early.
On the Hunt basically never triggering in boss fights was my biggest slayer complaint, so knowing that's being worked on makes me happy, too. Looking forward to the phials and daggers getting buffs as well.
As for the daredevil, my #1 problem with the class was how a lot of the feats were just "you can do Normal Thing X except using Skill Y or targeting Defense Z instead," which was pretty boring and a waste of space. I'm interested to see if that kind of flexibility will be rolled into fewer, more general feats or just become a default part of class progression.
Overall, happy with the update, even if it's on the shorter side. As for the image of the fancy treasure vault and the word "delve" in particular... TheTownsend might be onto something with that Dungeon Core joke. Or maybe... a Darklands/underground campaign sourcebook? Finally?
Im a little dissapointed so little was said compared to previous blogs considering how controversial this playtest was. I was interested to hear more about their plans for the classes. Its cool daredevil is getting more hp though I guess, thats neat.
Yes, for example, the Impossible Playtest Debrief last year had five paragraphs about the necromancer and four paragraphs about the runesmith. The Risks & Rewards: Red Line Overload had only one paragraph each about the daredevil and the slayer.
Hard for them to provide details when they're still figuring out what changes to make with the classes.
I agree here, too. That is a good explanation why the report is so short.
For example, I had suggested radical changes in the daredevil, such as dropping the adrenaline mechanics entirely. But the developers cannot promise changes in adrenaline, because balancing the class without adrenaline will take many weeks of internal playtesting.
More HP on the daredevil was a very easy and obvious fix, so I'm glad to see it out of the way early.
Easy, obvious, and possibly weakening the daredevil's theme. In order to seem daring, the daredevil needs to seem vulnerable. We discussed in the thread Daredevil defenses (other than AC) seem very, very bad many ways to made the daredevil better at surviving combat besides piling on enough hit points that they can soak up damage like a barbarian. On the other hand, to soak up damage like a barbarian, the daredevil would need 12 hit points per level like the barbarian, so the daredevil still is vulnerable at 10 hit points per level.
In addition, Teridax's report, Notes from the playtest: Daredevil made me realize that if the daredevil's only defense beyond light armor was hit points, then the party's medic would have to perform a lot of healing on the daredevil after combat. That would work with Treat Wounds enhanced via Daredevil's Endurance, but what about parties that heal via spells such as Heal, potions such as Elixir of Life, focus spells such as Lay on Hands, or impulses such as Torrent in the Blood?
Oh wow, that's shorter than I expected, and I was expecting them to discuss some potential adjustments to the order that Daredevil functions in or something else structural to the way it operates. But I'm happy to hear the Slayer will have stronger Signature Tools that aren't the weapon, since that was really it's only issue.
Since the playtest ended I'm feeling vaguely positive about both classes, neither are necessarily something I'll personally play (unlike Necromancer, Commander, Animist AND Exemplar, etc) but I think they're cool in the context of the game's ecosystem.
It's good to hear the other tools are getting shored up for Slayer.
I do hope next year's playtest is a bit more up my groups' alleys. This is the first one in a while that didn't drum up the level of interest for at least one of my groups to try the new stuff out in a one-shot.
WRT: Slayer, I was disappointed that there was no mention of changes to tools, even though I think that was one of the biggest problems with the playtest version of it.
They did though?
And in that same vein, we’ll also be improving the effectiveness of the signature tools that you let us know were underperforming to make sure they truly live up to that name!
There must be other ways besides simply increasing HP.
I have a long discussion on this, because I was analyzing it with experiments during the final weeks of the playtest. But that discussion does not belong here. Instead, I posted my response at Kittyhawk, Playtest Daredevil, comment #81. That playtest thread has been archived, but it is still receptive to new comments.
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Im a little dissapointed so little was said compared to previous blogs considering how controversial this playtest was. I was interested to hear more about their plans for the classes. Its cool daredevil is getting more hp though I guess, thats neat.
I still really hope Slayer's Mark Quarry will be changed and their trophies will be made more interesting cuz both of those were really dissapointing to me in the playtest. Hopefully those fall under the changes that they didnt mention here but theyre still planning to make
Hard for them to provide details when they're still figuring out what changes to make with the classes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Slayer got a total overhaul. Its class features read more like an adventure subsystem than a chassis for a player character. Very little actual meat on its bones.
[Emphasis mine.]
I would agree with that, but my thoughts were that the Daredevil’s “props mechanic” was a combat subsystem dressed up as class features. In effect, having a more cinematic, narratively satisfying way to approach the environment and your and your enemies place within said environment shouldn’t be exclusive to a class.
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... I wouldn't be surprised if Slayer got a total overhaul. Its class features read more like an adventure subsystem than a chassis for a player character. Very little actual meat on its bones.[Emphasis mine.]
I would agree with that, but my thoughts were that the Daredevil’s “props mechanic” was a combat subsystem dressed up as class features. In effect, having a more cinematic, narratively satisfying way to approach the environment and your and your enemies place within said environment shouldn’t be exclusive to a class.
I would love the Prop mechanic becoming a well-defined subsystem. Then we could have all PCs kicking over tables and swinging from chandeliers because they understand exactly what would happen. Currently, I just improvise circumstance bonuses for followup actions.
Yesterday one of my players compared my playtest daredevil to a video from 3 years ago called the Waffle House Chair Catch, in which a server at Waffle House calmly deflected a plastic chair tossed in her direction. The Prop mechanic, which I had emphasized in an experiment in which any feature on the map besides empty floor counted as a prop, is what had caught my players' attention as the exciting part of playing a daredevil. (In contract, the adrenaline mechanic is invisible to other players.)
I remember when I purchased the Pathfinder 1st Edition's Advanced Player's Guide in 2010. The Pathfinder (1st Edition) Core Rulebook had introduced a few alchemical items with splash damage, such as Alchemist's Fire, but splash damage was a fringe case. I joined a new campaign playing an alchemist and became an expert in the rules for alchemical bombs. I viewed alchemist as a class designed to teach players about alchemical bombs and alchemical consumables.
Other classes interact strongly with subsystems for all players. For example, the rogue frequently interacts with the rules for flanking and hiding. I have not played a thaumaturge in combat yet (just two thaumaturge NPCs in social situations), but they interact with the Weakness mechanic. I would be delighted if Risks & Rewards presented better rules for pulling a rug out from under an opponent and then made those rules the key ability of the daredevil.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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Hey Maya,
Could this thread be put under the Pathfinder 2e forum? It could be easy to miss for someone like myself who hardly ever visits the front page, let alone any other Paizo forum. If you have a reason to keep it as is, that's fine too, just figured I'd ask. Thank you.
It will be moved there soon! Because new blogs don't get automatically put in their section and there is no specific section for blogs (this making people miss blogs entirely unless they look for a specific game), all new blogs get posted here in Paizo Discussion, pinned for two weeks for optics, and then moved to their proper place!
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It's good to see an update on this, though I do agree that these playtest postmortems tend to be a bit more fleshed-out, and what little details were shared aren't coming across as especially exciting to me given the lukewarm reception both classes got. In particular, while consensus across different spaces was that the Daredevil was too squishy for their own good, there was also a popular view that simply increasing the class's HP, as opposed to giving them other improved survival benefits, would be the most boring and thematically inappropriate way to buff the class. That there is no mention of Mark Quarry on the Slayer when it was most commonly cited as the class's biggest pain point is also troubling. I do still believe Paizo has the ability to really knock it out of the park with both classes on their final release, but I'm drawing more from past achievements than the contents of this blog post for that feeling.
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Jason Keeley noted on Bluesky a couple days ago that the blog had to be written on the same day the playtest ended, so they didn't actually have time to thoroughly look over the feedback and are essentially reporting whatever could be figured out right away. They're still actively working on what changes need to be made and how.
In any case, I suspect the "lukewarm reception" might be part of the reason the updates are terse. The people who liked these classes seemed to have a clear idea of the central improvements needed, which the blog mostly covers. Most of the people who disliked them seemed to object to the core class fantasies, which, frankly, not a whole lot can be done about.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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Jason Keeley noted on Bluesky a couple days ago that the blog had to be written on the same day the playtest ended, so they didn't actually have time to thoroughly look over the feedback and are essentially reporting whatever could be figured out right away. They're still actively working on what changes need to be made and how.
In any case, I suspect the "lukewarm reception" might be part of the reason the updates are terse. The people who liked these classes seemed to have a clear idea of the central improvements needed, which the blog mostly covers. Most of the people who disliked them seemed to object to the core class fantasies, which, frankly, not a whole lot can be done about.
I wanted to note that I've been watching this thread as well as discussions of the wrap-up on social media, and we're taking on the feedback of giving the team a little more time to look through the responses before writing the wrap-up blog! This will be implemented on future playtest!
Keep in mind though that you were correct in that objections to the core class fantasies are not really things that can be adjusted too much, but we can at least give the team more time to ruminate on the other elements of the feedback given!
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What is the core fantasy concept of the daredevil? I have trouble identifying it.
The fantasy concept of some classes are based on legendary or fictional characters. The champion was inspired by legendary Roland and by a fictional gunslinger named Paladin in the TV show Have Gun – Will Travel, the ranger was inspired by Aragorn from the book Lord of the Rings, the monk class was inspired by Bruce Lee martial arts movies and the Kung Fu TV show, and the exemplar class resembles the character Maui from the Disney movie Moana. Other classes are tied more to a fictional trope rather than a definite character; for example, the PF1 iconic alchemist Damien had a strong steampunk motif. Other classes grew out of tactical considerations. For example, in original Dungeons & Dragons, the man-at-arms (fighter) represented the infantry, the magic-user (wizard) represented the artillery, and the cleric represented the medics. The thief (rogue) came later to fill the tactical scout and engineer niches.
The slayer is a monster hunter, and we can find many good examples of monster hunters in books and movies, such as Andrzej Sapkowski's Witcher series.
But my examples of daredevils in real life are old, such as escape artist Harry Houdini (1874 – 1926) and motorcycle stunt driver Evel Knievel (1938 – 2007). Perhaps Indiana Jones from Raiders of the Lost Ark can be viewed as a daredevil archaeologist. The mechanics of the daredevil reminded me of the characters Jackie Chan played in his martial arts comedy movies, with frequent use of objects and environment in combat.
I asked my players about the core fantasy concept of the daredevil. My wife said that the daredevil took risks to move faster or make more effort to do what is needed. My elder daughter wrote, "For me, it's going all in, then coming out the other side successful. Someone who turns the punishment of overextending on its head."
I like the daredevil as an everyman character, someone who took up adventuring for the thrill rather than because of special training or innate magic. It is a good roleplaying niche. But it does not explain the fantasy.
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I like the daredevil as an everyman character, someone who took up adventuring for the thrill rather than because of special training or innate magic. It is a good roleplaying niche. But it does not explain the fantasy.
For me, and the way it came out when I played Lag, my Orcish Changeling Daredevil, it felt very much like the Netflix/Disney show Daredevil with the way Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk fight. Occasional weapons, a lot of slamming people into parts of the environment, moving people around to set up attacks, occasional big double fisted over the head strikes. It feels very similar in niche to Brawler for me. But Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk were very much the fantasy that I thought of when I read about the class.
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I like the daredevil as an everyman character, someone who took up adventuring for the thrill rather than because of special training or innate magic. It is a good roleplaying niche. But it does not explain the fantasy.For me, and the way it came out when I played Lag, my Orcish Changeling Daredevil, it felt very much like the Netflix/Disney show Daredevil with the way Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk fight. Occasional weapons, a lot of slamming people into parts of the environment, moving people around to set up attacks, occasional big double fisted over the head strikes. It feels very similar in niche to Brawler for me. But Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk were very much the fantasy that I thought of when I read about the class.
This post made me think of Anime battles and Hong Kong action movies. Maybe it is more of an eastern trope.
So, Kung-fu Panda ?
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The trope, to me, is very much an everyman, who uses whatever is at hand, risking it all, to try and defeat the Evil Forces. Bucket to the unsuspecting enemy head? Worth it. slamming enemy into a wall? Par for the course. Getting beat to an inch of your life, but still get up? Of course... they arent fighting for honor, or glory, and anything like that. They have something that they are trying to protect, that means more to them than anything else. Pull out all the stops. Walk barefoot through molten glass if you have to... Cus if you give up, its all over.
The enemies arent some far away war or adventure. They are the monsters at the door, and you are all that stands between them and those you care about. You arent some mastermind, warlord, archmage, or wirkd renownedarchangel, etc. You are just some guy who has something to lose, and you arent going to stop until its safe.
Like the adopted son of a noodles restaurant's owner.
I am coming to think of the Daredevil as the opposite concept to the Exemplar.
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Like the adopted son of a noodles restaurant's owner.
Skedoosh.
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The Kung Fu Pando named Po is an interesting example for daredevil. A feature that I feel comes naturally to the daredevil beyond their everyday origin is never giving up. Though I have not watched Kung Fu Panda the Wikipedia entry says, "Refusing to believe that Po can be the Dragon Warrior, Shifu subjects Po to torturous training exercises in order to discourage him into quitting. Determined to change himself into someone he can respect, Po perseveres in his training and befriends the Furious Five, who had previously mocked Po for his lack of skill in kung fu." A daredevil perseveres. The daredevil may go down or become frightened, but they get back up and step forward.
The befriending mentioned in the plot summary is interesting, too. My playtest with Kittyhawk has her rescuing people by Repositioning them away from an opponent beating on them, an unexpected use of her Athletics ability. In this week's game session at 11th level, she rescued the 7th-level sheriff from the 13th-level final boss. I stopped chronicling the game after the April 21 game session, but Kittyhawk is working with the party as their local guide until they leave her hometown. This particular daredevil cares about people and befriends them.
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Though I have not watched Kung Fu Panda...
It is a great movie. Even the sequels are pretty good.
Oh there's some scenes in Kung Fu Panda that are absolutely archtypical daredevil behaviour. The scene where Po gets on a fireworks cart and uses it as a rocket comes to mind.
Wok to the face.
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Oh there's some scenes in Kung Fu Panda that are absolutely archtypical daredevil behaviour. The scene where Po gets on a fireworks cart and uses it as a rocket comes to mind.
I was thinking of the scene where Po plays a shell game with the sacred scroll and cooking tools as the shells IIRC while standing on improvised stilts that he uses to move the shells.
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The Kung Fu Pando named Po is an interesting example for daredevil. A feature that I feel comes naturally to the daredevil beyond their everyday origin is never giving up. Though I have not watched Kung Fu Panda the Wikipedia entry says, "Refusing to believe that Po can be the Dragon Warrior, Shifu subjects Po to torturous training exercises in order to discourage him into quitting. Determined to change himself into someone he can respect, Po perseveres in his training and befriends the Furious Five, who had previously mocked Po for his lack of skill in kung fu." A daredevil perseveres. The daredevil may go down or become frightened, but they get back up and step forward.
The befriending mentioned in the plot summary is interesting, too. My playtest with Kittyhawk has her rescuing people by Repositioning them away from an opponent beating on them, an unexpected use of her Athletics ability. In this week's game session at 11th level, she rescued the 7th-level sheriff from the 13th-level final boss. I stopped chronicling the game after the April 21 game session, but Kittyhawk is working with the party as their local guide until they leave her hometown. This particular daredevil cares about people and befriends them.
I do not know much about other asian modern cultures, but in many many japanese anime, fighting for your friends/family and never giving up is an extremely frequent trope and often the way to victory.