Obviously this is all going to be theoretical since I don't think there's a lot of official public information but let's say travelers made their way to New Thassilon and trekked up to Sorshen's new capital. What do you think it would take to get an audience with the Runelord?
Is it a process full of red tape and long waiting? Is it a more free-form process, designed to take advantage of the new era of Thassilon and a removal of the old traditions?
Does she hold parades or would she think that's too vain and prideful?
I'm curious as to how people view what life under Sorshen's rule would be like. My party is about to visit her capital and I'm brainstorming how I want it all to play out. Do we think there is an Undercity of dissidents? Do they have legitimate complaints about her rule?
Just looking for people's opinions and thoughts.
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Obviously this is all going to be theoretical since I don't think there's a lot of official public information but let's say travelers made their way to New Thassilon and trekked up to Sorshen's new capital. What do you think it would take to get an audience with the Runelord?
Is it a process full of red tape and long waiting? Is it a more free-form process, designed to take advantage of the new era of Thassilon and a removal of the old traditions?
Does she hold parades or would she think that's too vain and prideful?
I'm curious as to how people view what life under Sorshen's rule would be like. My party is about to visit her capital and I'm brainstorming how I want it all to play out. Do we think there is an Undercity of dissidents? Do they have legitimate complaints about her rule?
Just looking for people's opinions and thoughts.
Wait a couple months, the next AP after Myth-Speaker wraps should have your answer.
Creative Director
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I did post something to that effect but the forums ate it.
But yes. The first volume of Revenge of the Runelords, which should be out in October, has this in it.
Unless you're doing a "KILL SORSHEN" adventure path, in which case, that's a different story entirely.
I did post something to that effect but the forums ate it.
But yes. The first volume of Revenge of the Runelords, which should be out in October, has this in it.
** spoiler omitted **
Maybe I can drag out the journey across the rest of the plateau and up the mountain until October, haha. I have it set for them to show up probably right before Godsrain and witness it from atop the mountain, so Revenge won't happen for a little while in our timeline.
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If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
** spoiler omitted **
The sort of 'cloaking' effects of Leng would no longer be in effect right? Assuming the PCs in Rise dealt with the device? It's been years since then and I actually can't remember.
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4th level characters who get this thing and think about asking nicely the nice Runelord for wise advice about it would raise Sorshen's interest IMO. They can then, when the actual audience happens, strike her as potential reliable and efficient agents/allies.
To test them a bit, she might ask them, as a favor, to go check on Sandpoint's latest troubles. After all, things there do tend to have links to Thassilon's legacy.
And then you get the PCs to play Seven Dooms of Sandpoint.
And they should be in a perfect position to tackle Revenge after that.
If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
** spoiler omitted **
Will we get a statblock for Sorshen? It would be interesting to take her down.
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Creative Director
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Will we get a statblock for Sorshen? It would be interesting to take her down.If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
** spoiler omitted **
But nope. Fighting Sorshen isn't the point of this adventure, and if you want to do a campaign where you "take her down" you'll be on your own. I suppose you COULD repurpose "Revenge of the Runelords" to follow that plotline but you'll need to do some significant surgery and plot re-writing to the whole thing.
AKA: If you and your group are eager to do an adventure where Sorshen is the villain, then "Revenge of the Runelords" won't be for you.
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Since Sorshen (by her own words) likes to work through agents, I suspect she would be delighted to make the aquaintaince of more capable heroes and be on her best behaviour.
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Will we get a statblock for Sorshen? It would be interesting to take her down.If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
** spoiler omitted **
Why would you do that? Sorshen is on her way to becoming one of the "good guys." She's no longer the evil Runelord she was 10,000 years ago.
If want to take down an evil Runelord that was around 10,000 years ago and showed up in "modern" Golarion times, it is Belimarius you should be confronting.
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Will we get a statblock for Sorshen? It would be interesting to take her down.If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
** spoiler omitted **
Why would you do that? Sorshen is on her way to becoming one of the "good guys." She's no longer the evil Runelord she was 10,000 years ago.
If want to take down an evil Runelord that was around 10,000 years ago and showed up in "modern" Golarion times, it is Belimarius you should be confronting.
I know some members of the community would love PCs to bring Sorshen to justice for her past crimes.
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I know some members of the community would love PCs to bring Sorshen to justice for her past crimes.Will we get a statblock for Sorshen? It would be interesting to take her down.If you're planning on doing Revenge later with different PCs, then yeah, not as big a deal... but keep in mind that...
** spoiler omitted **
Why would you do that? Sorshen is on her way to becoming one of the "good guys." She's no longer the evil Runelord she was 10,000 years ago.
If want to take down an evil Runelord that was around 10,000 years ago and showed up in "modern" Golarion times, it is Belimarius you should be confronting.
Crimes from 10,000 years go?
Were they going to put her on trial?
What witnesses would they call to the stand? Belimarius? Demons??
Anything written (what little there is) would only be hearsay.
You couldn't have a truly just trial in a real court. It would only be a kangaroo court with incredibly unreliable witnesses.
Those "members of the community" should get over themselves.
4th level characters who get this thing and think about asking nicely the nice Runelord for wise advice about it would raise Sorshen's interest IMO. They can then, when the actual audience happens, strike her as potential reliable and efficient agents/allies.
To test them a bit, she might ask them, as a favor, to go check on Sandpoint's latest troubles. After all, things there do tend to have links to Thassilon's legacy.
And then you get the PCs to play Seven Dooms of Sandpoint.
And they should be in a perfect position to tackle Revenge after that.
My PCs actually will be level 10 by the time they get there; we have plans to run Seven Dooms with a different group of PCs tied to some of our Rise/Return heroes so we actually DID visit Sandpoint where everyone was very vague about the 'More Recent Unpleasantness' lol.
Essentially, the plan is for Godsrain to happen during an audience with Sorshen on the mountain top, the recurring antagonist to get a bit of the ol' Gorum Juice before the Lady of the House summarily removes him for the moment; the party gets the go-ahead from Sorshen to help collect some Warshards, get a little bit of their own mythic power, and then proceed to travel the world and the planes to gather the requirements to destroy the Item in Question.
My party got way too attached to the Rust-eze lol.
Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!
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Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!
Hellknights removing the lawful and enduring ruler of a sovereign nation on her own soil?
I don't think you know what the Hellknights are my friend.
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Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!Hellknights removing the lawful and enduring ruler of a sovereign nation on her own soil?
I don't think you know what the Hellknights are my friend.
Agreed.
No one can justly "punish" Sorshen for crimes she committed 10,000 years ago.
There may be a few glory-seekers who might try to kill her and take her stuff, though.
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Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!Hellknights removing the lawful and enduring ruler of a sovereign nation on her own soil?
On someone else's soil. Sorshen's soil is about 500 miles south of the realm she's currently ruling. Which she is doing by right of conquest.
On someone else's soil. Sorshen's soil is about 500 miles south of the realm she's currently ruling. Which she is doing by right of conquest.Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!Hellknights removing the lawful and enduring ruler of a sovereign nation on her own soil?
Not conquest. Xin-Shalast was long-abandoned by the time she got there, thanks to the Sihedron Heroes. She is at worst moving into a derelict and refurbishing it.
If she WANTED to, she could try and move into Korvosa but I'm pretty sure she canonically decided it would be too much trouble. Plus the heroes of Korvosa would likely have something to say about that, and dealing with a party of 4 at least level 18 people who have already slain one queen using the Everdawn Pool may be a little bit complicated.
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Hellknight PCs will put Sorshen to justice sooner or later!Hellknights removing the lawful and enduring ruler of a sovereign nation on her own soil?
I don't think you know what the Hellknights are my friend.
Agreed.
No one can justly "punish" Sorshen for crimes she committed 10,000 years ago.
There may be a few glory-seekers who might try to kill her and take her stuff, though.
Come to think of it, the 2 Runelords are not the only ancient Thassilonians alive in modern times.
IIRC the events from 10,000 years ago might still be quite fresh in these people's minds.
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Also to be fair a lot of her acts are by this point are pretty well known to anyone who studdies Thasilonion but random bob who runs the shoe store no idea and since she is a sponcer of outcasts and people with no where else to go I would assume she is quite well liked in her own city/lands at least.
What was the issue with Sorshen to begin with?
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What was the issue with Sorshen to begin with?
Being a Runelord entailed a lot of mass murder and enslavement as a matter of course. Sorshen decided to avoid starting up with that again not out of any realization that her actions were wrong but largely out of fear of the sticky ends her fellows met. And she was spectacularly successful in avoiding that outcome for herself, going above and beyond evading any negative consequences for her past deeds (not having to give anything up in reparation or as an earnest of her good faith) to maintaining or increasing her lavish lifestyle, personal and political power, and status. It comes across, at least to me, as a blatant exercise in narrative favor.
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What was the issue with Sorshen to begin with?Being a Runelord entailed a lot of mass murder and enslavement as a matter of course. Sorshen decided to avoid starting up with that again not out of any realization that her actions were wrong but largely out of fear of the sticky ends her fellows met. And she was spectacularly successful in avoiding that outcome for herself, going above and beyond evading any negative consequences for her past deeds (not having to give anything up in reparation or as an earnest of her good faith) to maintaining or increasing her lavish lifestyle, personal and political power, and status. It comes across, at least to me, as a blatant exercise in narrative favor.
Consider this: Sorshen bought favor back by helping defeat the other Runelords. Also, it is boring if all the Runelords die. It makes for a more interesting setting if ancient rulers from a lost empire return changed.
I don't know about you, but thousands of years of the same thing, even the hedonistic excess that Sorshen no doubt engaged in, would get boring. Gods forbid a girl try new things.
Also consider: she's cool and I like her.
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What was the issue with Sorshen to begin with?Being a Runelord entailed a lot of mass murder and enslavement as a matter of course. Sorshen decided to avoid starting up with that again not out of any realization that her actions were wrong but largely out of fear of the sticky ends her fellows met. And she was spectacularly successful in avoiding that outcome for herself, going above and beyond evading any negative consequences for her past deeds (not having to give anything up in reparation or as an earnest of her good faith) to maintaining or increasing her lavish lifestyle, personal and political power, and status. It comes across, at least to me, as a blatant exercise in narrative favor.
She spent 10.000 years in conscious stasis, I think that counts enough of a punishment. And actually the idea of imprisoning people is (at least in the civilized countries) to reform them, so I think her self-inflicted stasis absolutely counts as being successful in her case.
Oh also unleashing a small army of vampires upon the world once she woke up. that and the whole baving in the blood of people to become immortal so she could have that 'revelation' to begin with.
She did not "unleash an army of vampires". She released them to die and go to the great beyond. Source: Runeplage, page 67, bio of the Sorshen simulacrum.
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Gods forbid a girl try new things.
I quite agree. But going from being the absolute autocrat of a nation who wants for nothing, with the power to decide who lives and who dies, to the absolute autocrat of a nation who wants for nothing, with the power to decide who lives and who dies, doesn't strike me as much of a change. If she'd kept living in obscurity in Korvosa, or retreated to an ascetic existence, or placed her power and knowledge at the disposal of others, I'd find her rather more sympathetic and earnest.
Gods forbid a girl try new things.I quite agree. But going from being the absolute autocrat of a nation who wants for nothing, with the power to decide who lives and who dies, to the absolute autocrat of a nation who wants for nothing, with the power to decide who lives and who dies, doesn't strike me as much of a change. If she'd kept living in obscurity in Korvosa, or retreated to an ascetic existence, or placed her power and knowledge at the disposal of others, I'd find her rather more sympathetic and earnest.
God forbid she use her vast power to open up a realm for exiles and artists to escape to from oppressors. Not everybody has to live in sack and ash to repent for past misdeeds, doing enough good also counts.
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What was the issue with Sorshen to begin with?Being a Runelord entailed a lot of mass murder and enslavement as a matter of course. Sorshen decided to avoid starting up with that again not out of any realization that her actions were wrong but largely out of fear of the sticky ends her fellows met. And she was spectacularly successful in avoiding that outcome for herself, going above and beyond evading any negative consequences for her past deeds (not having to give anything up in reparation or as an earnest of her good faith) to maintaining or increasing her lavish lifestyle, personal and political power, and status. It comes across, at least to me, as a blatant exercise in narrative favor.She spent 10.000 years in conscious stasis, I think that counts enough of a punishment. And actually the idea of imprisoning people is (at least in the civilized countries) to reform them, so I think her self-inflicted stasis absolutely counts as being successful in her case.
Oh also unleashing a small army of vampires upon the world once she woke up. that and the whole baving in the blood of people to become immortal so she could have that 'revelation' to begin with.She did not "unleash an army of vampires". She released them to die and go to the great beyond. Source: Runeplage, page 67, bio of the Sorshen simulacrum.
Well either someone made a mistake or they since retconned it since thats a plot point in a certain module
abandoned the Eurythnian Vault deep under Korvosa
to found New Thassilon, the minions and creatures
she’d kept imprisoned in the deep underground
chambers were set free. Most of these creatures fled,
eager to put as much distance as possible between
themselves and Sorshen, fearing a potential change
of heart from the notoriously mercurial runelord. But
some remained, including an ancient, deadly strigoi
vampire named Aliriel.
Here's the text passage from Runeplague:
Important part bolded.
If someone has retconned some of those vampires to be still un-alive, that should have no weight on the original intent of the author, i.e. Sorshen releasing her army of vampires to go to the great beyond being a redemptive act.
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Creative Director
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The author in this case was both me, during development, so the disconnect is there. I've avoided stepping into this conversation for a while because I feel like no matter what I say will only give fuel to those who are banging the drums of "NO MERCY FOR SORSHEN" and don't think she deserves a chance at redemption (this being a more modern evolution of the pedantic alignment arguments that go nowhere online, it seems)... but here goes. It's late and I'm kinda sleepy so apologies for the train of thought rambling behind the spoiler tag:
The intent is that Sorshen released her vampiric minions, as detailed in Runeplague, but this is not the same as her killing/destroying them all. There were some who managed to escape and linger and move on to do what happens in Shadows at Sundown. Vampires are tough to permakill, and a few tricksy ones slipped through the cracks.
Sorshen is still and has been trying to do better, but even though she's super powerful, she still makes mistakes.
There HAS to be room for redemption/atonement/forgiveness in the world... be it the made up one we publish games for or the real world we all live in. But you can't have a redemption story when the person being redeemed wasn't first awful in some ways.
The point is—Sorshen woke up, saw that the other 6 runelords paid or were paying for their inability to change their nature, and on top of that during her 10,000 years of isolation in the Eye of Desire also came to terms with her own demons and is looking for another future... but that it's an ongoing process. Most of her vampire minions were released from service as a result—but some of them survived and hid and escaped to go on to become the dangers you see in Shadows at Sundown.
Whether or not any one person thinks Sorshen deserves a chance to atone is on them, but from a pure storytelling persepctive... having ALL the runelords play out semi-identical "rise from death to menace the world and then be slain by modern heroes" stories is not as compelling or as interesting to me as is telling one about a runelord who changed. Not everyone likes that, and that's fine—those who don't think a redeemed Sorshen makes sense are free to ignore that story and focus on other things and craft their own stories about her for their incarnation of Golarion. That's a big part of the joy and fun and responsibility of being a GM.
A big part of being the narrative creative director is the joy and fun and responsibility of setting up the world itself to inspire all of those different takes on the story, and sometimes I'm not as clear as I want to be when it comes to telling those stories.
Thanks, James. :)
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To be fair I am not actually against redemption stories Noctilia great redemption story, Arzani great redemption story. (Also funnily enough all 3 happening within a relativly short time frame of each other and Sorshen is the weakest redemption story of the 3 IMO.)
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Turns out, Arazni is the weakest of the three for me, especially with her (undeserved, IMO) elevation to one of the top 20 deities of the Inner Sea.
Arazni's story is 100% NOT a redemption story, but a story about betrayal and then escape and regaining one's dignity and agency and perhaps eventually getting revenge.
I wonder why people think it is a redemption story then?
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I wonder why people think it is a redemption story then?
Because people saw her previous alignment and then her current edicts/anathema, and didn't have the media literacy to realise that leaving Team Evil doesn't mean that it's a redemption story. (I'm very firmly in camp "Arazni's "redemption" is about getting yourself out of an awful toxic situation that was constantly pushing you to be your worst self, and then trying to figure out what to do next." It's a very relatable arc!)
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Yeah, Arazni is very much not redeemed and might not be in the next millennium. Putting her in the top 20 makes an incredible amount of sense to me since her worshipers are basically "anybody who survived bad stuff and wants to hurt the people who hurt them." Which is a non-negligible fraction of "everyone, everywhere."
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Arazni's had a more personal type of redemption, not the standard evil becomes good, rather the weak/victimized became strong/empowered. It's a redemption of her own agency, which is the first step for any future growth, but it's not a redemption to goodness (though loosely in that direction). She displays empathy, but it's for a tight circle of like-damaged folk. In the arc of her life's growth, her soul remains wilted more than at start, perhaps toxic too. She has a ways to go to balance (and heal) before becoming actively pro-social, if that's feasible in the time spans covered by Paizo (well, barring an appearance in Starfinder or cinematic epiphany).
I think her strong protagonist vibes might have misled some. She must be good, she's struggled and persevered against evil. It's easy for us to sympathize, to root for her, but she's a bitter being driven by vengeance (but at least not only that). But yeah, not top 20 material, which smells like Paizo bias to me, but maybe there was philosophical vacuum (or Golarion metaphysical one) that she filled, bringing her to fruition as a deity long longed for.
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The "Core 20" aren't necessarily the strongest gods or whatever, they're just a list of 20 (living) deities that are particularly relevant to the Inner Sea region. Arazni's star is rising for metaplot reasons - a goddess who's patron of those unwillingly cursed or death-touched is going to resonate with a lot of people right now, between the Godsrain scattering curses, blessings and things that are both all over the world (especially Ustalav), and a goddess of the abused, vengeance, and hanging on to your dignity in the worst circumstances has a lot to do when there's a war on.
I gotta say a big thank you to James for what you said may have been getting your own wires crossed; in planning more of my campaign I sort of off-the-cuff decided a level 10 strigoi vampire would be sealed up in an old, forgotten little outpost of Sorshen's near the base of Xin-Shalast (perhaps she had it built in ancient times as a way to keep an eye on the surrounding Runelords, as one does). I reasoned that this vampire would likely have been bound to her service around the time of the Age of Darkness.
I had 100% forgotten about the fact that literally exactly that (Strigoi who served Sorshen specifically during the Age of Darkness) was already canon in the lore and when I re-read those bits in Shadows at Sundown I felt briefly like an oracle.
Long story short, I love your work with the Runelords and Varisia and when my party finally gets to going far away for their adventures I'm gonna miss having Thassilonian messes to have them stumble over.