I'm not the biggest fan of either, I gotta say. The additional spells are alright, but the vessel spells look a bit meh. Gift of the anemos looks like it could have funny combos with a Liturgist where you yeet yourself massive distances in one action, but it's also a bit goofy in that the best way to make the most of its aura is to make yourself really big, get heavy armor, and also have a shield to raise, i.e. be the least air-like and graceful thing around. Meanwhile, poison damage is generally awful, and crown of prophets in general looks like it's trying to do too many things at once instead of trying to be good at one thing.
One thing I'll note, as well, is that these vessel spells seem to be developing a trend where trying to commit actual character choices to be good at certain things is not a great idea: Crafter in the Vault gives you free Crafting and Thievery proficiency, so might as well not really bother raising those, but then Serpentine Advice doesn't really do much if you already have Dubious Knowledge, and Gift of the Anemos overrides your Athletics proficiency for Shoving. There's a risk here where players might end up feeling a bit disappointed the next time an apparition comes up that lets any other Animist gain the same benefits they committed permanent character choices towards obtaining.
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One thing I'll note, as well, is that these vessel spells seem to be developing a trend where trying to commit actual character choices to be good at certain things is not a great idea: Crafter in the Vault gives you free Crafting and Thievery proficiency, so might as well not really bother raising those, but then Serpentine Advice doesn't really do much if you already have Dubious Knowledge, and Gift of the Anemos overrides your Athletics proficiency for Shoving. There's a risk here where players might end up feeling a bit disappointed the next time an apparition comes up that lets any other Animist gain the same benefits they committed permanent character choices towards obtaining.
I'll counterpoint this.
That's the entire point of Animist. To have things picked on a daily basis that are only barely second fiddle to what a regular character built for that purpose would have. If Animist didn't get that level of power from their choice of Apparition, then each Animist would have to semi-permanently choose a small subset of Apparitions to focus on that they could augment with other permanent character build choices in order to make a viable character. Which would be more of a trap option for those who don't realize that this is what is required. (To an extent, I already feel this way about Witness to Ancient Battles and Embodiment of Battle. In order to take full advantage of that focus spell, you have to have put some rather permanent investment into attribute choices and equipment costs.)
Crafter in the Vault is a good example. As it is, with Traveling workshop you indeed don't have to invest in Crafting or Thievery in order to be a crafter or a lockspringer for the day. You don't have to have bought the tools for those jobs either. The scaling proficiency will let you at least attempt checks for on-level challenges.
However, it doesn't fully override any benefit of a character (including an Animist) who does put permanent build power into Crafting or Thievery. Primarily the skill feats. With only Crafter in the Vault and Traveling Workshop, the character cannot create permanent items without severe restrictions on them, can't use crafting for earn income, can't transfer Runes or do other things needing the Magical Crafting feat, doesn't qualify to have other useful feats like Quick Unlock or Wary Disarmament.
And at the very least, even if I did create an Animist character invested with the basics of Crafting or Thievery, I wouldn't think that my character is invalid or built wrong simply because the Crafter in the Vault Apparition exists. I might not choose that Apparition very often or at all, but I don't think the game is worse because of its existence. I don't even think that my character is worse because of Crafter in the Vault's existence. I still have my Crafting and Thievery build character, and it didn't take up an Apparition choice to have.
Looks like the new adventure path The Acropolis Pyre adds two new animist apparitions
Great additions to have!
Crown of Prophets from Speaker in Sibilance is our second apparition spell with some solid out-of-combat benefits, giving access to a useful knowledge skill feat. It's not as much out-of-combat benefit as two full skills, but it's also more applicable within combat.
I had actually missed that we did already have a Sailing Lore apparition, so I thought that Shepherd of Errant Winds was adding that in for the first time. Sailing Lore is one of the most "when you want it, you really want it" lores, and calling on a spirit of the wind and travel is a lot more fitting to help with that than the shipwreck spirit. I wouldn't slot it in primary often, but that's fine.
Situational apparitions are fine if the situations are big enough things to know about at the start of the day. I think "traveling" and "doing research" both qualify.
I'll counterpoint this.
That's the entire point of Animist. To have things picked on a daily basis that are only barely second fiddle to what a regular character built for that purpose would have.
I can't help but feel this misses the point entirely. For sure, the point of the Animist in general is to ape the strengths of other, more specialized classes (and, in practice, often exceed them), but the way apparitions typically do this is with effects that are difficult for the Animist to build, such as Reactive Strike with a mini-heroism or battle forms. Crafter in the Vault was up until now unique for giving a whole bunch of things the Animist could already easily access with permanent character options. The addition of these new apparitions with similar effects is what turns this exception into a trend, as there are now three apparitions whose vessel spell benefits are at least partially covered by taking skill increases and skill feats.
And the reason this is significant, by the way, is because these effects devalue character build choices. Vessel spells like devouring dark form or earth's bile aren't easily reproducible with skill feats or other permanent build choices on an Animist, so even if they do let you copy the strengths of another class, the addition of one such apparition won't make your permanent build choices less valuable by comparison. By contrast, these apparitions do. If Paizo were to release an apparition that, say, gave you the Armor Proficiency and Shield Block feats with its vessel spell, that vessel spell would devalue the commitment of Animists who used permanent feats for those better defenses, as every subsequent other Animist would be able to gain the same benefits without that same commitment. It is perfectly possible for an Animist to gain the strengths of other characters in a way that respects their own permanent build choices given the number of vessel spells that already do this, and I think that ought to have been the principle to follow for those three vessel spells.
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I had actually missed that we did already have a Sailing Lore apparition, so I thought that Shepherd of Errant Winds was adding that in for the first time. Sailing Lore is one of the most "when you want it, you really want it" lores, and calling on a spirit of the wind and travel is a lot more fitting to help with that than the shipwreck spirit. I wouldn't slot it in primary often, but that's fine.
Situational apparitions are fine if the situations are big enough things to know about at the start of the day. I think "traveling" and "doing research" both qualify.
I agree, finding yourself in a special situation and being able to adjust to it is the core gameplay for Animist, and sailing lore is a really good addition here.
Is that all the AP brought weirdly enough? New Animist stuff is kinda crazy!
There's an appreciable opportunity cost to selecting the apparition though. For example, if I build for Athletics as an Animist, I'm not feeling any worse due to the existence of the Anemos apparition, since I see that an Animist without my build would have one fewer free apparition choice only to barely mimic me (lower bonus except level 1-2, can't use any of the other, arguably overall better maneuvers).
There's an appreciable opportunity cost to committing skill increases and feats too, though, is the point. The addition of the Shepherd of Errant Winds means that if I currently have an Animist where I've committed a great deal many Athletics skill increases, any other Animist can prepare an apparition to get the same benefit for Shoving, and preparing that apparition is a comparatively small opportunity cost when you can prepare several at a time, and change your loadout every day.
The problem with this kind of design is that is fundamentally subtractive, rather than additive: imagine if the Crafter in the Vault were released now instead of on the Animist's release, and long after players had starting building their Animist. Any character that would have committed skill increases towards Crafting and Thievery to become better at disabling traps would have had all of that devalued by an apparition every Animist can get that provides comparable benefits. The fact that you can get skill increases earlier is not in my opinion a big enough advantage to cover for that issue, and I do think those issues are present in the new apparitions too. My fear now is which permanent character customization options future apparitions will try to replace, and the effect this'll have on the appreciation Animist players will have for their own builds when what few permanent character choices they get to make get devalued.
Is that all the AP brought weirdly enough? New Animist stuff is kinda crazy!
Nope. We got Exemplar stuff too.
Wait really!? What did Exemplar get if I may ask?
There's an appreciable opportunity cost to selecting the apparition though. For example, if I build for Athletics as an Animist, I'm not feeling any worse due to the existence of the Anemos apparition, since I see that an Animist without my build would have one fewer free apparition choice only to barely mimic me (lower bonus except level 1-2, can't use any of the other, arguably overall better maneuvers).There's an appreciable opportunity cost to committing skill increases and feats too, though, is the point. The addition of the Shepherd of Errant Winds means that if I currently have an Animist where I've committed a great deal many Athletics skill increases, any other Animist can prepare an apparition to get the same benefit for Shoving, and preparing that apparition is a comparatively small opportunity cost when you can prepare several at a time, and change your loadout every day.
The problem with this kind of design is that is fundamentally subtractive, rather than additive: imagine if the Crafter in the Vault were released now instead of on the Animist's release, and long after players had starting building their Animist. Any character that would have committed skill increases towards Crafting and Thievery to become better at disabling traps would have had all of that devalued by an apparition every Animist can get that provides comparable benefits. The fact that you can get skill increases earlier is not in my opinion a big enough advantage to cover for that issue, and I do think those issues are present in the new apparitions too. My fear now is which permanent character customization options future apparitions will try to replace, and the effect this'll have on the appreciation Animist players will have for their own builds when what few permanent character choices they get to make get devalued.
I view this the exact opposite way.
If I were playing a trapper/crafter Animist and they released Crafter in the Vault, I'd be over the moon! You're telling me that I can retrain my primary skills, dedicate an off-spirit, and scale my trained Crafting and untrained Thievery up to a secondary skill, increasing the benefit of feats like Quick Repair? And I get a mobile crafting station with some restrictions, all without needing to compromise my main pick of primary spirit? That would already be great on its own, but I now have a whole set of spells specifically themed around crafting and traps! You're telling me that would be a bad thing or somehow cheapen the concept? No, it enables it so much better! Now I get two skills freed up to do whatever I had to put on the back burner before.
Anyone who was playing an Animist who relied on spirits for knowledge of questionable reliability now has "The Spirit That Provides You With Knowledge of Questionable Reliability" to add to their regular rotation! It can free up a skill feat if they want, or they can leave it in secondary and just get the thematic skill and spells.
And any Animist who heavily invested in Athletics has no problem at all, because being able to shove well is 5% of what the skill does, tops. It's not even tripping, let alone grappling. This one actually isn't useful for letting an Athletics build focus on other things because shove is such a minor part of the Athletics suite of options. Maybe your campaigns have an inordinate amount of ten-foot-wide rope bridges that fights take place on, though?
Wait really!? What did Exemplar get if I may ask?
They're also on Demiplane. Level 7 epithets: Plunderer of the Hive’s Riches and Trespasser in Death’s Realm, along with a bunch of uncommon feats.
Yeah in principle the concern is fair, I just think it's a matter of degree, and the degree to which these two new apparitions step on the toes of actual Athletics builds and Dubious Knowledge builds is not enough to make me worried.
This is fair, if nothing else overriding Athletics on one single action that's less generally useful than Grappling or Tripping isn't a huge devaluation, even if it still is one, nor is gaining Dubious Knowledge for free. I do still think both could have been implemented a bit better, though, ideally in a way that was at the very least agnostic to what an Animist may have built.
If I were playing a trapper/crafter Animist and they released Crafter in the Vault, I'd be over the moon! You're telling me that I can retrain my primary skills, dedicate an off-spirit, and scale my trained Crafting and untrained Thievery up to a secondary skill,
I'm sorry, but wouldn't you be a pretty poor trapper/crafter Animist if your Crafting proficiency were stuck at trained and your Thievery skill were untrained? What would this Animist even be doing with their permanent build options in a world where Crafter in the Vault didn't exist?
Because really, if I were a trapper/crafter Animist and Crafter in the Vault did not exist, my best bet would be to increase my Crafting and Thievery... all of which would be severely devalued by the Crafter in the Vault, which would provide the same benefits to any Animist without incurring permanent build commitments. And that's the risk. It's not just an issue of severity, though in the case of Crafter in the Vault I do think it's quite stark, it's also a matter of principle. Even small overrides like these devalue builds and are liable to make players feel bad when what few permanent choices they can make on an Animist become things any Animist can take on at little cost. Ideally, the Animist should be receiving more opportunities to have their permanent build choices truly stand out, not fewer.
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If I were playing a trapper/crafter Animist and they released Crafter in the Vault, I'd be over the moon! You're telling me that I can retrain my primary skills, dedicate an off-spirit, and scale my trained Crafting and untrained Thievery up to a secondary skill,I'm sorry, but wouldn't you be a pretty poor trapper/crafter Animist if your Crafting proficiency were stuck at trained and your Thievery skill were untrained? What would this Animist even be doing with their permanent build options in a world where Crafter in the Vault didn't exist?
Because really, if I were a trapper/crafter Animist and Crafter in the Vault did not exist, my best bet would be to increase my Crafting and Thievery... all of which would be severely devalued by the Crafter in the Vault, which would provide the same benefits to any Animist without incurring permanent build commitments. And that's the risk. It's not just an issue of severity, though in the case of Crafter in the Vault I do think it's quite stark, it's also a matter of principle. Even small overrides like these devalue builds and are liable to make players feel bad when what few permanent choices they can make on an Animist become things any Animist can take on at little cost. Ideally, the Animist should be receiving more opportunities to have their permanent build choices truly stand out, not fewer.
"Retrain my primary skills"- to be more explicit, take my maxed out Crafting and Thievery, scale them back down to trained or untrained (depending on the prerequisites for feats needed for the concept), and get some more skills that fit the concept, while dedicating a spirit to bringing those skills back up to the level before.
I don't have to feel bad that "other Animists" are able to also get Crafting and Thievery cheaply- they're not in the same game. It's not even reducing the build diversity, because "Crafter in the Vault specialist that takes enough 'natural' Crafting and/or Thievery to support relevant feats" is still distinct, and it's now varied by whatever two skills they now get to focus on in addition.
For a concrete example, let's say I'm playing a kobold animist that is fully focused on as much of a trap-based build as I can, and I'm using Animist (no Crafter in the Vault yet) because it's one of the best perceptions in the game- Trap-spotting and disabling is the primary focus, and making them is the next most important thing. Thievery and Crafting are the most important skills, of course, but I do have a few things that fit the theme just at trained- Stealth and Survival chief amongst them. We're at level 9, so I finally got both those skills to master!
Crafter in the Vault comes out. Looks nice... Looking at Crafter in the Vault, I can now get both those skills to master just by dedicating a secondary spirit and casting a ten-minute focus spell in the morning? Nice! Time for some retraining. Crafting only has one trap-related skill feat, Snare Crafting, and it just requires trained. So, we can bump Stealth up to master, allowing waiting in ambush. For Thievery, Wary Disarmament requires expert, so we can retrain our increase to master out, and bump Survival to expert, letting us hit master in it two levels earlier than we would have. Now, we're a kobold that can better track where people go, spotting any of their traps, replace them with our own traps, and lie in wait to ambush them. Additionally, we now have Impaling Spike, Creation, Knock, and a portable workshop to better fit our theme.
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Hmm, maybe I should take another look at a PFS animist with focus on "so what's missing in today's party?"
I wasn't that impressed with the PF1 Medium which also tried to do the "what build am I today" but most of them that I saw ended up locked into the same build every day. Maybe PF2 does it better though.
"Retrain my primary skills"- to be more explicit, take my maxed out Crafting and Thievery, scale them back down to trained or untrained (depending on the prerequisites for feats needed for the concept), and get some more skills that fit the concept, while dedicating a spirit to bringing those skills back up to the level before.
In other words, you have to undo your permanent build decisions, work with your GM to let you retrain your permanent build decisions, and remain saddled with permanent build decisions that bring comparatively far less value until you do. What happens when the adventure you're in doesn't give you the downtime to retrain, and your GM doesn't just let you rebuild your character on the spot? Don't you think this is likely to cause problems?
I don't have to feel bad that "other Animists" are able to also get Crafting and Thievery cheaply- they're not in the same game. It's not even reducing the build diversity, because "Crafter in the Vault specialist that takes enough 'natural' Crafting and/or Thievery to support relevant feats" is still distinct, and it's now varied by whatever two skills they now get to focus on in addition.
Just because they're not in the same game does not mean it doesn't feel bad that your permanent build options are suddenly a lot less valuable and you're made to retrain. It is also very much a reduction to build diversity when it makes Crafting and Thievery much less attractive to build on an Animist. As it stands, the Animist is the class in the game with the least amount of permanent build decisions to make: their spells are prepared freely from the divine list, their apparitions can be swapped out daily, and even their feats feature wandering feats that can be retrained daily as well. Skill increases and skill feats are one of the very few permanent decisions they can make, which makes it especially poor form when those decisions are devalued.
For a concrete example, let's say I'm playing a kobold animist that is fully focused on as much of a trap-based build as I can, and I'm using Animist (no Crafter in the Vault yet) because it's one of the best perceptions in the game- Trap-spotting and disabling is the primary focus, and making them is the next most important thing. Thievery and Crafting are the most important skills, of course, but I do have a few things that fit the theme just at trained- Stealth and Survival chief amongst them. We're at level 9, so I finally got both those skills to master!
Crafter in the Vault comes out. Looks nice... Looking at Crafter in the Vault, I can now get both those skills to master just by dedicating a secondary spirit and casting a ten-minute focus spell in the morning? Nice! Time for some retraining. Crafting only has one trap-related skill feat, Snare Crafting, and it just requires trained. So, we can bump Stealth up to master, allowing waiting in ambush. For Thievery, Wary Disarmament requires expert, so we can retrain our increase to master out, and bump Survival to expert, letting us hit master in it two levels earlier than we would have. Now, we're a kobold that can better track where people go, spotting any of their traps, replace them with our own traps, and lie in wait to ambush them. Additionally, we now have Impaling Spike, Creation, Knock, and a portable workshop to better fit our theme.
This very example highlights the problem. Putting aside how the Animist very much doesn't have one of the best Perceptions in the game -- Clerics and Druids get Perception expertise much sooner, whereas classes with expert-to-legendary Perception need can continually match or exceed the Animist -- your kobold Animist finds themselves having the core of their build decisions devalued by an apparition that provides a huge number of skill increases -- and tools -- for free, and this is without accounting for the crafting portion of the vessel spell either that can't be replicated with skill feats. If your character were to accommodate that apparition, they'd want to retrain their skills as you mention in your first paragraph, and even if the GM is gracious enough to allow that heavy amount of retraining in one go, that devaluation ends up running even deeper, because your trapper kobold finds themselves having to either commit redundant skill increases to gain certain feats, or abandoning that track -- and the reason you picked that ancestry in the first place -- altogether. I would be willing to bet that the player would not be very happy with this, and I would use your very same example as a cautionary tale of why we shouldn't be designing additions to the game that devalue existing builds, to any extent.
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My animist already took expert in crafting to gain Magical Crafting and Dubious Knowledge.
I do sort of feel like it would have been wise to have traveling workshop grant Magical Crafting at some point because otherwise, I'm not sure it will be very useful at high levels outside of disarming traps. If that were the case, I wouldn't be worried about investing a bump in crafting and could free up a skill feat. But as it is, I'm perfectly comfortable with investing a skill increase and feat to make the most of the Crafter.
I plan on keeping Dubious Knowledge because I'm not always going to be attuned to the Speaker in Sibilance but I do plan on regularly making recall knowledge checks and always getting a 50/50 answer from a failure is better than nothing at all.
I don't feel like my permanent choices have been devalued with what the class offers by default.
I think the Serpentine Advice effect is there purely so you get SOMETHING from sustaining in case you can't utilize Toxic Prophecy that turn. The unarmed attack you gain, while handy at times, is not anything worth dedicating an entire vessel spell toward - it's martial weapon tier on a simple weapon class. I think Toxic Prophecy is the major draw, and like I said, you need to give it something to ensure it's not going to just end up being a waste of a sustain action.
Gift of the anemos just seems feels like a handful of bunts compared to the home runs of some other vessel spells. I think it's still more useful than store time but that's a low bar. And once again, I HATE the liturgist for being able to utilize it better than the other practices.
In other words, you have to undo your permanent build decisions, work with your GM to let you retrain your permanent build decisions, and remain saddled with permanent build decisions that bring comparatively far less value until you do. What happens when the adventure you're in doesn't give you the downtime to retrain, and your GM doesn't just let you rebuild your character on the spot? Don't you think this is likely to cause problems?
I definitely don't think it's likely to cause problems, no. I have never played with a GM who disallows integrating new material into a character if it does a better job. If a GM doesn't allow new content to be integrated, though, then that's something to beef with the GM over, not something for Paizo to avoid publishing certain options over. The idea that something coming out that fits your character better than what you have being a bad thing just doesn't make sense to me- whether a permanent choice or a flexible one.
It does sound like a fundamental difference in our views, though- if you're coming in with an assumption of not being able to adjust around a new option, and something better-but-redundant existing makes those permanent choices feel worse, me saying "just change" or "just don't worry about it" isn't going to change your view, and vice versa.
Just because they're not in the same game does not mean it doesn't feel bad that your permanent build options are suddenly a lot less valuable and you're made to retrain. It is also very much a reduction to build diversity when it makes Crafting and Thievery much less attractive to build on an Animist. As it stands, the Animist is the class in the game with the least amount of permanent build decisions to make: their spells are prepared freely from the divine list, their apparitions can be swapped out daily, and even their feats feature wandering feats that can be retrained daily as well. Skill increases and skill feats are one of the very few permanent decisions they can make, which makes it especially poor form when those decisions are devalued.
Eh, see, I just couldn't view it that way. I'm not being made to retrain, I have the opportunity to do so and get a better representation of the game.
A little bit of Crafting and Thievery investment go a lot further with Crafter in the Vault because it leverages those skill feats better without tying down the more limited skill increases. I wouldn't expect most Animists to be looking at those usually, but now they have a reason to consider them.
This very example highlights the problem. Putting aside how the Animist very much doesn't have one of the best Perceptions in the game -- Clerics and Druids get Perception expertise much sooner, whereas classes with expert-to-legendary Perception need can continually match or exceed the Animist -- your kobold Animist finds themselves having the core of their build decisions devalued by an apparition that provides a huge number of skill increases -- and tools -- for free, and this is without accounting for the crafting portion of the vessel spell either that can't be replicated with skill feats. If your character were to accommodate that apparition, they'd want to retrain their skills as you mention in your first paragraph, and even if the GM is gracious enough to allow that heavy amount of retraining in one go, that devaluation ends up running even deeper, because your trapper kobold finds themselves having to either commit redundant skill increases to gain certain feats, or abandoning that track -- and the reason you picked that ancestry in the first place -- altogether. I would be willing to bet that the player would not be very happy with this, and I would use your very same example as a cautionary tale of why we shouldn't be designing additions to the game that devalue existing builds, to any extent.
Whoops! I saw somebody mention Animist getting master perception on a wisdom class, and didn't go verify that. Yeah, scrap that part of the hypothetical then- our hypothetical trapper kobold is an Animist to consult the spirits of the tunnels, then.
I definitely disagree with your conclusions, though. I used an example that I could see myself playing, and I'd be thrilled by the hypothetical new addition- and I at least think that would be the more common reaction. When I sat down to build my Animist trap specialist, I'd be annoyed that I couldn't fit Crafting, Thievery, and Stealth all on the same character until very high levels. So when the spirit came out, I would be really happy that I could reduce my Crafting and Thievery investments without being any worse at the skills, while increasing Stealth much earlier. There's only one redundant skill increase (not counting getting something to trained, since those are relative cheap)- Thievery needs to be Expert for a feat for better disarming. It's a very minor cost to "waste" one trained-to-expert increase to get another trained-to-expert increase and a trained-to-master increase.
Trained Crafting and expert Thievery is enough to get all the relevant skill feats. And as far as the availability of the rebuild goes, if an option comes out that fits my concept perfectly, I do expect a GM to let me adjust to accommodate it. Maybe that's not as common as my experience suggests, and perhaps I'm undervaluing the envy aspect. At least for me, this sort of thing is a positive, and I welcome any new apparitions with out-of-combat utility, regardless of whether it replicates build choices. But it's not like my opinion has any meaningful sway with Paizo's writers, so it's not that big of a deal if I'm wrong.
Hmm, maybe I should take another look at a PFS animist with focus on "so what's missing in today's party?"
I wasn't that impressed with the PF1 Medium which also tried to do the "what build am I today" but most of them that I saw ended up locked into the same build every day. Maybe PF2 does it better though.
Animist seems to do two major things better than Medium, and one minor thing.
- There's more on the chassis itself. It's a full caster with medium armor, and none of the apparitions lock you out of using any of that. Even if you completely whiff on your spirit selection for the day, you have divine spells and at least some useful off-list spells.
Medium was barely a caster and barely a martial, with their spirit of the day getting them up to "a partial caster" or "a weak martial". If you picked the wrong spirit, there wasn't much to fall back on, and using some of the spirits too much locked you out of some of that baseline.
- On the other side, the apparitions are doing less, and there's more flexibility within the day for them. You've got two-to-four apparitions giving you your spontaneous spells- amongst all of them, you probably have something useful for those slots. The only thing your primary apparition does is give you a focus spell. Rather than Medium trying to completely redefine itself, Animist just bends in one direction or another. You also pick from two-to-four roles that you can bend towards during the day, and you have the ability to flex between them during the day, instead of only one.
- The minor thing is wandering feats. If there were better coverage for these, or better "defaults" if you don't have any of the right apparitions, I'd factor these more heavily, but it's still nice to be able to shift some feats around in response to the roles you have picked out for the day. Medium I think had some expensive abilities to kind of do that, but the large feat chains of PF1 made it difficult to use effectively.
I definitely don't think it's likely to cause problems, no. I have never played with a GM who disallows integrating new material into a character if it does a better job. If a GM doesn't allow new content to be integrated, though, then that's something to beef with the GM over, not something for Paizo to avoid publishing certain options over. The idea that something coming out that fits your character better than what you have being a bad thing just doesn't make sense to me- whether a permanent choice or a flexible one.
I would not be so hasty to generalize your experiences as a universal in order to dismiss the valid concerns of others. You are not entitled to having the GM let you rebuild your character at the drop of a hat, and it is perfectly valid on the GM's part to not see the addition of a new content option as sufficient grounds to do so. If your build is being devalued by the addition of new content, that is not the GM's fault, and to be clear: I'm not opposed to new content, I'm specifically opposed to new content that devalues or breaks existing builds, whether it's the Oracle remaster making Battle Oracles into ineffective gishes or new Animist subclasses devaluing what few permanent character choices the latter class gets to make. It is perfectly possible to design content that does not do this, so it's not like Paizo is forced to make people feel worse about their characters with new content either.
It does sound like a fundamental difference in our views, though- if you're coming in with an assumption of not being able to adjust around a new option, and something better-but-redundant existing makes those permanent choices feel worse, me saying "just change" or "just don't worry about it" isn't going to change your view, and vice versa.
Correct, which is why we should try to exercise a modicum of empathy instead of trying to invalidate people's concerns as a first instinct. If you don't see any issue, all the more power to you, but that does not mean everyone else feels the same way you do or plays under the same conditions as your table that let you not be worried.
Eh, see, I just couldn't view it that way. I'm not being made to retrain, I have the opportunity to do so and get a better representation of the game.
A little bit of Crafting and Thievery investment go a lot further with Crafter in the Vault because it leverages those skill feats better without tying down the more limited skill increases. I wouldn't expect most Animists to be looking at those usually, but now they have a reason to consider them.
I'm going to stop you right there, because you're setting a standard of judgment here that seems more designed to make your own argument unfalsifiable than to engage the topic of devaluation. If committing permanent character build choices as a first priority still had a daily apparition achieve all of that better, that would be even worse, but we do not need to reach that standard for there to be a devaluation. This happens already when that daily apparition even just achieves most of what you've committed permanent build choices, and it is irrational to pretend the existence of this apparition does not change their comparative added value: if that apparition did not exist, committing skill increases towards Crafting and Thievery as an Animist would have no substantial rival to achieve the same effects, and with that apparition's addition, the decision to commit those skill increases is rivalled by the decision to prepare an apparition on the day to get most of the same benefits at far less cost or commitment. You may not personally see this as important, but that does not mean there is objectively no change to the comparative added value of those permanent character choices.
I definitely disagree with your conclusions, though. I used an example that I could see myself playing, and I'd be thrilled by the hypothetical new addition- and I at least think that would be the more common reaction.
Question regarding the part I bolded: says who? Where is your evidence for this, and why is it important to you that you have this unsubstantiated consensus on your side? Why is my opinion not important enough to at least take it into consideration, rather than attempt to invalidate it as you have thus far done? The very fact that I have an opinion different from yours should already be enough to contradict the notion that yours would be a universal reaction, but on top of this I have also made the effort to point out how the implementation of these options objectively diminish the relative value of related permanent build choices. Again, you may personally not see this as a big deal, and that's a fine opinion to have, but you do not get to pretend that these apparitions change nothing and that everyone else will see it your way.
Trained Crafting and expert Thievery is enough to get all the relevant skill feats.
Snare Genius requires expert rank in Crafting, so I don't think this is correct either. You may try to argue that being able to craft snares in 3 actions instead of a minute and having those render creatures off-guard isn't "relevant", but that would not come across as a very convincing argument to me.
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Hmm. As for why I think it'd be the more common reaction- I'm used to seeing people excited about when a new option comes out that overlaps with what their existing character already does, rather than being disappointed. Wanting that consensus... well, I'm somebody who enjoys out-of-combat options, and avoiding overlap with permanent choices really cuts down on those.
It's clearly not as universal as I'd thought, so I'll go ahead and drop the topic. Sorry to have been so dismissive; it wasn't the appropriate tone. My preferences aren't of any greater weight than anyone else's.
Good point on Snare Genius- I only looked at skill feats; I didn't check over the Kobold feats. In this case, that sounds like it'd be pretty relevant, and Survival would have to wait after all.
It's clearly not as universal as I'd thought, so I'll go ahead and drop the topic. Sorry to have been so dismissive; it wasn't the appropriate tone. My preferences aren't of any greater weight than anyone else's.
I appreciate this, and on my part I apologize for being more confrontational than is probably necessary for such a low-stakes discussion. To pick up specifically on wanting more out-of-combat options: I personally can very much empathize with that desire, as I share it too, and I think that is an opinion that is entirely valid to have on its own, regardless of consensus. Even if I personally see not devaluing permanent build choices as a priority over more such options, I also very much agree that there is value to having a greater range of options for the Animist or any other class that aren't just about combat. I also believe there is probably a happy middle ground to be found here, such that we could have the desirable option while respecting existing build choices as well.
To draw from existing examples: the illusory disguise and knock spells both use a common model for boosting a skill, in that they grant a substantial status bonus to certain skill checks while also letting you add your level to your roll if you're untrained. This effectively covers both bases: if you're untrained, you become competent enough to attempt the skill check, and if you've committed to the skill already you become even better. I believe this model could be easily applied to traveling workshop's proficiencies as well as gift of the anemos's Shove benefit, with the caveat that traveling workshop probably still ought to let you attempt trained checks even if you're untrained as well, with this ranking up to expert and then master later on. Effectively, the tools already exist within the game to satisfy us both: an Animist could use these apparitions to gain substantial benefits without committing build choices, but an Animist that has built for these things already would have their choices rewarded. This, I think, ought to be the guiding principle for this kind of apparition benefit.