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[detail level is too low to be an issue for PC off-script uses]
The issue with this argument is we already know the exact default use case. Military engagement with troops. It's a battlefield map.
That means that this map has to be able to show the smallest sized squads / units, in a way that any commander would be using a hook stick to move figures around a map.
Once per day, the commander gets itchy, or is about to make a big move. He uses the atlas's activation, and the helpers all scramble to pull & push the tokens to their real locations before the commander makes a call.
Like, a flanking team of 10 fast horses with fireball wands would need to show up on this map guys.
This is not a backpack adventurer's map, and is likely a lot larger than one might first guess.
I'm talking about those maps that everyone in the 90s had in their glovebox, the ones that unfolded to such a large size they were too big for the passenger seat, you'd have to get an idea of where you were and leave the irrelevant map half-slinkyed onto the floor.
Something kinda like this, but splayed out in a giant table that occupies most of the commander's tent.
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This example battlefield map has a distance scale, and it's about 4 miles in each direction / 10ish across. Note that there's an entire little town in there.
So if one wants to use the RaW, keeping the 36 miles *and* the use case of a battlefield map, then the actual inch size of this atlas must be pretty dang big.
And honestly, that's fine. If we presume the "takes up most of the command tent" example, then numbers are actually pretty close here.
It's not like the old pf1 days where every population count was at best 1/10th of what it should've been, etc.
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But it does mean that it is waaaaay to useful to be listed as a level 7 uncommon, imo.
I'm still of the opinion that's it's too powerful to even exist in Golarion, it just changes warfare too much. Earth militaries today are still not used to satellites and their capabilities. Yet, those are less reliable than these things.
Clouds and night both limit them, meanwhile a sneaky scout near enemy lines with this map is going to be able to get a photo-perfect picture on the exact battle-relevant enemy setup. 36 miles deep into enemy lines.
Because, while that "commander's tent" example was def what the writer had in mind, they accidentally made the perfect spy tool.
On Earth, spies had to sneak into the enemy camp, and start copying or stealing actual paper word letters and get them back to their side. After that, they would have to turn the written correspondence of "my men are weary, we can arrive in two days, but only have supplies for a week" into troop movements.
This once per day activation just takes a photo-perfect snapshot of all foes in a 36 mile square radius, no espionage required. Imagine just how bad this would be if one side could send an invisible broom rider to take snapshots, while the other did not have that intel. With scouts teleporting back home, you now have a daily updated map of troops across the entire enemy nation, while the other is blind within the fog of war.
Like, holy f@*%ing s&*$. Again, Earth commanders in 2025 already using USA's satellites would kill for a map like this. (Seeing which barn is stuffed with quartered troops, etc. Separating and ID-ing foes from civilians alone is game-changing)
(And yes, this also changes many other things, like pathfinders going exploring, etc)
The whole "only works aboveground" houserule doesn't fly with me, narratively or mechanically.
First, it says nothing of the sort. Second, there are plenty of vaults within Golarion that are large enough to house entire countries, including their warring armies. An item like this would be right at home mapping them out just as much as the surface. And finally, it only solves the perceived problems with dungeons, not other adventuring areas.
It also doesn't say it shows multiple layers. It's a flat map like a paper map you're looking at. How is it conveying 3d information like underground systems while also showing above ground information?
Like if you're actually underground then maybe the plane it's showing is that one instead, but the idea that you can be sitting in Absalom and this thing will show Gauntlight Keep and then also show every floor in detail below Gauntlight Keep is just not how paper maps work.
It's not a video game mapping system.
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Trip, the map's usage is held in one hand, so its way too small to cover a commander's table.
I was curious so I took a look at a map of the Peak District (UK) I have. It has a scale of 1/2 inch to the mile and is slightly smaller than the Arcane Map (covers 56 by 38 miles).
I think the best American comparison would be a USGS 1:100,000 scale map.
I fully agree the map would be incredibly useful for an army. Just knowing heights would be good information and every army would try to get one. And I'm in agreement that 7th level is a little too low, this should probably be at least an 11th level item to be on par with scrying instead of clairvoyance.
However, things this map would not show: Forest hunting trails, current weather conditions, ford locations of rivers, whether bridges have been fortified or destroyed, enemy supply caches, etc. Local guides or scouts would still be needed.
I was attempting to square the contradiction of the clear use-case as a battlefield map with the 36 mile number, by using the blank of the actual paper size. I do think your example of hunting trails is a good one, that's probably about the biggest / most "significant" terrain feature that can safely be said to be too small/irrelevant to make it into a battlefield map (at least most of the time?).
A stated size limitation of 1-H is definitely a problem, and I'd ask if the book makes it clear if that's the unfolded and reading use, or if there's reason to think it's trying to say it's 1-H when rolled up and/or using magic snapshot activation. If it's clearly 1-H when reading it, oof.
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Because, yeah, that 36 mile number is just nonsense for a map that small to be used for troop movements.
Again, the smallest battle-relevant unit size has to be visible.
When all put together, those 3 bullet points create a contradiction that needs to be resolved in one way or another.
A GM needs pick their poison of:
* The use case is no longer for troop movements (obviously not this one)
* The terrain size is waaaay lower than 36 miles
* The map size is waaaaay bigger than held in 1-H
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Of course, there's always the infinite possibilities of addition to make this contradiction work. Such as adding a magic zoom in/out feature.
We always had bad faith players trying to con the GM into getting more than what the RAW allows.
This is nothing new to this item.
BFPs? I don't think they exist.
*Gets blindsided by BFP*
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but the idea that you can be sitting in Absalom and this thing will show Gauntlight Keep and then also show every floor in detail below Gauntlight Keep is just not how paper maps work.
Maybe. Its unclear. Some maps absolutely do show multiple layers
More of the massive table variation
On this magical map, the titanic would be 0.05 inches long.
I agree with you - sort of - about table variation.
Uh, I was just showing the first example I could find of a 3D map, NOT claiming that this particular magic item would map the Titanic that way. I vaguely recall Undermountain was several miles on a side. Or we could take the Mines of Moria.
As to table variation, just look at this thread for the many (presumably good faith) interpretations of what this map does. One person thinks that ALL it does is give a +1 to survival checks, others like me think it basically changes the face of warfare. Some think it would show all of a dungeon, some think it would show the entrance as a dot, some think it would show nothing at all. This thread already demonstrates the massive table variance there will be with this item.
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Table variance, is perhaps the best (and worst) thing about this item.
You can run it in a way that works for your group and makes them happy.
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Well, if you really think Paizo's text as written changes the face of warfare,
I do
and that "a reasonable level of detail" means this 3-mile-per-inch map shows every level of a dungeon and can be used to see details down to 5' squares
At this point I've almost decided that you are very deliberately trolling me and misinterpreting me.
I've never said anything that could remotely be honestly interpreted as saying that.
I have said that its functionality in this respect is very unclear. That is ALL I have said
, then I guess as a GM you can always fall back on 'uncommon' and not make it available to characters without some appropriate questing.
I've already stated that is exactly my intent in any game that I run so thank you for your permission I guess.
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Thinking about hexcrawl, this does really change the play. But maybe that's not a totally bad thing?
When you're starting out hexcrawling at level 1, you're moving kinda slowly from hex to hex. The party's speed isn't high enough to get into the better actions per day bracket. If you get badly mauled by monsters it might take you until the next day to recover. You might be limited by provisions. You're probably limited by bulk, how much loot you could even carry back to town. And you can't really see very far "ahead" into what's in further hexes.
But by level 7, if you're still dealing with the exact same problems as level 1, it gets a bit tedious. By now food is not really a concern anymore. You probably have a bag of holding. Everyone's figured out a way to bump their overland speed to 30.
You're also starting to look more for the significant encounters on the map. Finding the level 2 bandits on the map is not that exciting. Finding the hidden fortress is interesting though. And being able to look multiple hexes ahead to see what kind of terrain is there is interesting.
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So I think this would be a big spoiler if you got it at the start of a hexcrawl campaign. But getting it partway through might be okay.
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So I think this would be a big spoiler if you got it at the start of a hexcrawl campaign. But getting it partway through might be okay.
Good point. But it would have to be done with extreme care.
For example, I'm currently running Book 3 of Quest For The Frozen Flame. Characters are 9th level. And this would completely change the second third of the book. In a way that would arguably make it better (ie, much shorter) admittedly :-)
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I feel like as you level, your problems should change. You should outgrow some of your low level problems but start to worry about new threats/responsibilities.
Also another point to consider. By level 7 characters start getting more and more ways to fly. Air kineticist, dragonblood, tengu etc get all-day flight at level 8-9. Mapping from the sky should also give you a big view of things.
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Let think about how this item potentially impacts PCs and NPCs, especially NPCs in war.
You know the terrain (at least roughly). I'm assuming major landmarks are noted, including cities. Running with the idea of a 36" map, it means something that is 330ft is just a 1/16" on the map. That's little more than a dot. Anything smaller, but notable is probably a dot.
It likely has some sort of information about water ways, and elevation rings, and major forests.
Having good knowledge of terrain and water ways definitely makes for more efficient routing.
Like I see this item changing warfare, but not necessarily negating the need for scouts. Scouts would be do less in terms of relaying terrain and navigational information, and would focus more on important (but relatively small to this scale) locations and enemy movements. Because I think anything under like 40 to 50 people isn't going to show up on the map. You could also have the map not differentiate between belligerents. It just shows a grouping of people, perhaps the size of the marker roughly correlates to number of people but I doubt an exact number is given.
But now, without adequate communication you don't know if that force is an enemy or an ally.
Let think about how this item potentially impacts PCs and NPCs, especially NPCs in war.
Absolutely everything you have said is
1) totally reasonable
2) up to GM discretion.The key is going to be what the GM (more or less arbitrarily) decides is the reasonable level of detail
True, but that's kind of the beauty of it. You as a GM, or your group, can decide what is appropriate for your group.
The item can be ruled in a reasonable way such that it's useful, and would change warfare, but not necessarily completely upend it.
You could also even have a narrative about the first warring nation that produced this item, and the subsequent attempts to steal it, the knowledge of its creation, it's eventual "leak" to become "common" for countries at war to posses at least a few.
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You could also even have a narrative about the first warring nation that produced this item, and the subsequent attempts to steal it, the knowledge of its creation, it's eventual "leak" to become "common" for countries at war to posses at least a few.
I think I'd actually maybe play that Adventure Path :-) :-). Of course, it probably has to span about 10 years elapsed time in total :-(
Let's not forget the mission to swap out a phony Atlas that provides false information provided by one's enemy who's patient enough to only use it for the final blow. Then they reclaim it and sneak it to the next enemy commander who then falls prey to it. That is until we meet that old-school former grunt who wants actual eyes on the ground (or in the air) who then sets up their own trap in some "trick the other guy's magic map" way involving a band of plucky young 'uns who've come into their own.
Funny thing is that DnD 1st ed had several such war-trickery spells that were often unhelpful or overkill at party-level scales, but could change a troop battle via terrain illusions/alterations, fortifications, hidden masses, etc. I wonder if some of those spells have returned.
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Funny thing is that DnD 1st ed had several such war-trickery spells that were often unhelpful or overkill at party-level scales, but could change a troop battle via terrain illusions/alterations, fortifications, hidden masses, etc. I wonder if some of those spells have returned.
I still remember with glee discovering that fireball expanded to fill the volume. Meant as a limitation, in the hands of creative players it turned into "Resist Fire. Boom. Next dungeon please"
Table variance, is perhaps the best (and worst) thing about this item.
You can run it in a way that works for your group and makes them happy.
Yep. Use it as a tool for someone to enjoy the game more and push the story forward.
If a player invests in the item, you want them to have some useful fun with it.
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OK this thread sent me down a rabbit hole of old maps because I was kind of curious as to exactly how revolutionary the terrain-revealing aspect of the map would be in renaissance warfare (not including the troop-revealing aspect for now). Like, maps are important in warfare for sure, but on the other hand the land doesn't change very quickly, and if you're invading your neighbour it's not like the hills and rivers are wandering around (unless you're waging war on the First World, but that's on you). Anyway, it looks like even in the 1600s they had pretty decent maps for most places in England, showing the larger towns, coastlines, rivers, and hills, and these were just the commercial maps that you could buy at a store. It'd probably be a bit different if the wars were being waged in less well-mapped countries, like Iobaria, but I'd imagine that if Andoran decided to "liberate" Isger in the Hellfire Crisis then getting a simple topographic map would probably be very easy and much cheaper than getting a magical version.
(Of course, this is completely separate from the map's daily ability to point out all the troops in the area, which would be obscenely useful. I've got no real argument against that being overpowered. Many historical accounts of battles include words like "Lord So-and-So thought that the opposing army was still three days march away so his army wasn't formed up into battle lines and they got trounced". It also doesn't touch on how it affects hex crawls. I just got dragged into a wiki hole and want your all to suffer too :-P)
I still remember with glee discovering that fireball expanded to fill the volume. Meant as a limitation, in the hands of creative players it turned into "Resist Fire. Boom. Next dungeon please"Funny thing is that DnD 1st ed had several such war-trickery spells that were often unhelpful or overkill at party-level scales, but could change a troop battle via terrain illusions/alterations, fortifications, hidden masses, etc. I wonder if some of those spells have returned.
You reminded me of a high-magic warfare scene in the prologue of a Gygax novel set in Greyhawk where a castle packed with blaster casters demolishes the incoming forces and their siege engines. Fireballs, lightning bolts, arrows carrying targeting aids for explosions, all kinds of mayhem...except not really. The attackers had led with illusions so the defenders would deplete their spells and it become more of a traditional battle (albeit w/ monsters). Even this was all a distraction so a band of heroes could infiltrate. In another of his books two fiendish countries wage a massive battle with demons vs. daemons, summoned hordes obliterating each other, again leaving room afterward for mortals to contribute.
With proficiency scaling, I doubt troops in Golarion can contribute much outside of joining, well, Troops. I look forward to seeing how Paizo solves this power discrepancy while putting PCs in a pivotal plot position.
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[detail level is too low to be an issue for PC off-script uses]The issue with this argument is we already know the exact default use case. Military engagement with troops. It's a battlefield map.
That means that this map has to be able to show the smallest sized squads / units, in a way that any commander would be using a hook stick to move figures around a map.
Once per day, the commander gets itchy, or is about to make a big move. He uses the atlas's activation, and the helpers all scramble to pull & push the tokens to their real locations before the commander makes a call.
Like, a flanking team of 10 fast horses with fireball wands would need to show up on this map guys.
This is not a backpack adventurer's map, and is likely a lot larger than one might first guess.
I'm talking about those maps that everyone in the 90s had in their glovebox, the ones that unfolded to such a large size they were too big for the passenger seat, you'd have to get an idea of where you were and leave the irrelevant map half-slinkyed onto the floor.
Something kinda like this, but splayed out in a giant table that occupies most of the commander's tent.
.
This example battlefield map has a distance scale, and it's about 4 miles in each direction / 10ish across. Note that there's an entire little town in there.
So if one wants to use the RaW, keeping the 36 miles *and* the use case of a battlefield map, then the actual inch size of this atlas must be pretty dang big.
And honestly, that's fine. If we presume the "takes up most of the command tent" example, then numbers are actually pretty close here.
It's not like the old pf1 days where every population count was at best 1/10th of what it should've been, etc.
.
But it does mean that it is...
Agreed that this item just shouldn't exist. It breaks warfare and is equivalent or better than having a modern spy satellite. If this costed 50,000gp the entire structure of warfare would center around it, but it costs 350gp there's no barrier at all to having 30 of the things.
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Let's switch from Thread necromancy to Mathfinder
Well, it only eliminates the need for scouting within 36 miles of the map. It's also a 7th level item, which isn't going to be available to everyone all the time.
36 miles is above median for well-trained horse and rider. If you want to know what's happening 36 miles away, you need to wait two days. (Average vs. median in this case is weird, as some extraordinary horses managed to do over 100 miles in a day in crisis. My searches suggest this was unhealthy, to say the last)
Also, remember that the circumference of the circle will be Pi*2*36 miles ~ 226 miles. On Earth, the horizon is about 3 miles away on flat land. If you assume that your scouts spot everything from their position to the horizon, You'd need 38 scouts to spend two days to give you information at least 8 hours out of date. (There's some discussion on the size of Golarion relative to Earth I'm ignoring in favor of pointing out that on Middle-Earth, Elves don't have a horizon, which is why Legolas can see several more miles away.) One use of this item is worth 80 man-days of well-trained scouts and horses.
A Survival guide level 1 costs 4 gp per day
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2469
A scout is probably paid less, but with the horse and both their food and the people to carry their food (logistics wins wars*) we'll assume it works out. so that's 360 gp, and this item pays for itself in a single use. If this item had the same price and the consumable tag, it would still save you 10 gp over scouting.
*Alternatively, you could hire a level 1 wood kineticist to spend 8 hours a day making food for hundreds** of people, I guess. (See other thread)
**I'm not doing the math on how many people a single kineticist can feed in eight hours. I have video games to play.