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It is not like 1E. Size does not directly apply a default reach. There's just a table of common expectations of reach. Size-changing abilities only modify reach if they specifically say that they do.
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Such as the Enlarge spell, which will increase the tiny-size Sprite's reach by 10 feet.
RAW is sometimes a troll ruling though, so check with your GM if they will allow a size changing effect to increase reach even if it doesn't say so. The precedent for it is there.
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I'm pretty sure that it's not intentional for a large creature to have 0' reach and the rules simply don't account for it in spells and such.
The rules that say Sprite PCs have no reach are in a section titled "Tiny PCs", and say this (emphasis mine):
PCs are typically Small or Medium size, but most sprite PCs are Tiny instead! Being Tiny comes with its own set of rules about space and reach. Your Tiny sprite can enter another creature's space, which is important because your melee Strikes typically have no reach, meaning you must enter their space to attack them. Like other Tiny creatures, you don't automatically receive lesser cover from being in a larger creature's space, but circumstances might allow you to Take Cover. You can purchase weapons, armor, and other items for your size with the same statistics as normal gear, except that melee weapons have a reach of 0 for you (or a reach 5 feet shorter than normal if they have the reach trait). Remember to adjust the Bulk of items and your Bulk limit for Tiny size (see Items and Sizes).
If you consider both the heading and that sentence, it's pretty clear everything in that paragraph is talking about a tiny PC. If you're suddenly not tiny, there's no reason it should apply anymore. (The Pixie Heritage makes you small, for example and there's no reason to assume a Pixie is intended to have 0' reach.)
This would get even sillier if you found an effect that makes you small/medium/large but doesn't add reach, since now you'd be too big to enter most other creatures squares but would have to do that in order to attack them.
Kaiju Stance? Is that a new monk stance?
Kaiju Stance? Is that a new monk stance?
Yes. Kaiju Stance.
Well, the Pixie heritage for the Sprite ancestry already makes you small, not tiny, so you'd have 5' of reach naturally. If you then go into Kaiju stance you'd have 5' of reach but your attacks have reach so you can attack 10' away, you now take up four squares.
If you weren't a pixie but, a draxie or a grig for example, if an effect made you no longer tiny the rules for tiny PCs would stop applying, so you'd have the normal 5' of reach.
Kaiju Stance? Is that a new monk stance?Yes. Kaiju Stance.
Well ain't that interesting. That's a cool stance that might be fun to try.
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You're... gonna have to convince your GM to "have encountered a Kaiju and survived" though, unless a Mightyfall Kobold could count :p
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You're... gonna have to convince your GM to "have encountered a Kaiju and survived" though, unless a Mightyfall Kobold could count :p
What that should be is that the feat is Uncommon, so you will need to talk to your GM about getting access to it.
The mechanics can be re-themed. It doesn't necessarily have to be centered around Kaiju lore and flavor.
Well, the Pixie heritage for the Sprite ancestry already makes you small, not tiny, so you'd have 5' of reach naturally. If you then go into Kaiju stance you'd have 5' of reach but your attacks have reach so you can attack 10' away, you now take up four squares.
If you weren't a pixie but, a draxie or a grig for example, if an effect made you no longer tiny the rules for tiny PCs would stop applying, so you'd have the normal 5' of reach.
Yeah, Sprite's don't have any "special" reach applying to them. They're just following the normal rules for reach based on size.
Tiny character's have 0' reach.
Small and medium character's have 5ft reach.
Large (tall) characters typically have 10ft reach.
I would argue anyone using Kaiju stance (because it's a polymorph effect) should probably have 10ft reach unless there's something special about your ancestry that modifies your reach (and Sprite's don't, they have typical reach for their size).
On top of that, Kaiju stance's Earth Shattering attacks (which are the only ones you can make) have the reach trait. Meaning you should up being able to attack 15' away.
The idea of making a sprite monk with kaiju stance sounds kind of amazing honestly.
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I believe the standard for Large characters is that while you take up four squares instead of 1, you still only get 5'of reach. It's just that to represent your largeness there tends to be something related that can give you Reach (like the Kaiju Stance attacks or the Minotaur's Stretching Reach.)
I believe the standard for Large characters is that while you take up four squares instead of 1, you still only get 5'of reach. It's just that to represent your largeness there tends to be something related that can give you Reach (like the Kaiju Stance attacks or the Minotaur's Stretching Reach.)
What are you basing that on?
Based on these rules I would expect large (tall) to have 10ft reach and large (long) to have 5ft reach. And they explain that tall is typically bipeds (normal humanoid shape) and long is quadruped.
Also, let's ignore anything specific to Sprite's or being tiny.
Because the way I read Kaiju stance is that you are polymorphed into a large version of yourself.
So whether you play as a halfling, a human, or a sprite when you use kaiju stance you become a large version of yourself.
And as far as I can see, there is nothing special about the reach of sprites, only a reminder that due to their tiny size sprite's have a reach of 0. So there's no reason to treat them differently than a halfling or human.
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Large creatures do not get reach by default. A Young Horned Dragon is large, but its claw attack does not have reach. All Large bears, horses, camels, Catoblepas hoof attack, Aeolaekas azata, ankhravs, chimera, etc.
Even some Huge creatures don't have reach for all their attacks. Alicorn horn attack, caustic monitor talon, dragon turtle claws.
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The Large PC rules in Howl of the Wild also explicitly restate that being large does not automatically give PCs any extra reach, to prevent this misconception about a size-based default reach.
Most centaurs and minotaurs, as well as some athamarus and awakened animals, can be Large. Large PCs generally can adventure most places that Medium PCs can, but we've included some reminder text covering important information for playing or GMing for Large characters.
Large PCs occupy a space that is 2 squares long by 2 squares wide by 2 squares high. This means that they can, for example, Strike a creature that is flying 10 feet above the ground (or 15 feet above the ground when using a reach weapon). However, Large PCs do not automatically gain additional reach, though some Large ancestries (such as minotaurs) have ancestry feats that grant them additional reach. A Large PC is also big enough that they provide standard cover instead of lesser cover to Small or smaller creatures.
When moving through an area that is only 5 feet wide, a Large PC can move through the space but treats each square as difficult terrain. Moving through a narrower space that does not obstruct Small creatures requires Large PCs to Squeeze. This is typically relevant only in encounter mode; when shopping in town, a centaur can typically enter a building intended for Medium-sized creatures even if it takes them a little more time to duck through the doorway. When a Large PC moves through hazardous terrain or a similar obstacle that causes damage based on the number of squares the PC moves through, they take damage only once for each 5 feet of movement—a minotaur shouldn't take four times as much damage for crossing a burning field as a human! Large PCs should generally be able to acquire equipment sized for them without having to pay a cost increase; these characters come from cultures that regularly craft appropriately sized gear for them to use.
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Alright, so now we need to have the confusing discussion of innate reach vs reach weapon.
And there's also the question of whether or not the howl of the wild rule would apply, as it seems to be talking about large ancestries and their reach vs a magical ability that makes you large size.
I honestly find this to be very poorly written, agitatingly so because it's inconsistent with the other information you're provided.
Also considering this compared to Giant Instinct barbarian (Giant Stature), which makes you large with 10ft reach (and you can use a reach weapon) and also makes you clumsy...I feel like this probably should do the same.
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The basic rules for Large PCs are established in Howl of the Wild (5' reach by default) the basic rules for Tiny PCs are established in the Ancestry Guide (0' of reach).
Enlarge (and Giant instinct stuff) explicitly spell out that you get extra reach (at the cost of being clumsy) but just being large doesn't get you extra reach of you're a PC except in the sense that if you're already occupying 2x2 squares then you can reach more spaces within 5'.
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I guess my point is, I don't think a supplementary book like Howl of the Wild should be the place where rules for being large shoudl be established.
Cause this isn't even about large ancestries, this is about what happens when you are suddenly large.
I concede, that RAW you appear to be correct, but I think it's a shit ruling and argue instead that when the ability was written it was likely forgotten that being large didn't give you 10ft reach, at least not without explicitly saying your reach increased by 5ft.
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I mean, spells and effects should do what they say on the tin. Enlarge gives you 10' reach not because it makes you large but because the text of the spell says "Its reach increases by 5 feet (or by 10 feet if it started out Tiny)." This text isn't superfluous, it's needed because "just becoming a different size" has no inherent effect on your reach, damage, etc. If Enlarge didn't have that text, it would not increase your reach. Just like if Fireball wouldn't do damage if it didn't say "dealing 6d6 fire damage" in the text of the spell.
The reason the rules for Large PCs was established in Howl of the Wild is that there was no way to play a Large PC before that book was printed, the only ways to be Large were spells and effects that specified what effect they had on your reach.
Kaiju Stance notably does not increase your natural reach (just the only strikes you can make have Reach), unless you were already Tiny in which case it does in the sense that the rules for being Tiny stop applying to you when you're not longer Tiny (so also you can no longer enter a space that's already occupied by another creature.)
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@Claxon the key point is that the core book's text is talking about "The table also lists the typical reach for creatures of each size". The word "typical" does a lot here. It means that this is not an ironclad promise you can rely on. For contrast, the rules don't say that fighters typically get 10+CON HP or that a shortsword typically has an 1d6 damage die. They always get that.
There aren't any rules for tiny or large characters in the core book. The table is talking about what you should generally expect monsters to be designed like. And not even all of them; some "tall" large monsters have only 5 or 15 or more reach.
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@Claxon the key point is that the core book's text is talking about "The table also lists the typical reach for creatures of each size". The word "typical" does a lot here. It means that this is not an ironclad promise you can rely on. For contrast, the rules don't say that fighters typically get 10+CON HP or that a shortsword typically has an 1d6 damage die. They always get that.
There aren't any rules for tiny or large characters in the core book. The table is talking about what you should generally expect monsters to be designed like. And not even all of them; some "tall" large monsters have only 5 or 15 or more reach.
I guess I don't agree with your view, in that typical should mean it covers 90% of cases that players & GMs should deal with, and if something isn't typical it should be called out explicitly.
All they really needed to do if they wanted PC of large/medium/size category (without some other effect granting it) having only 5ft reach is to put a statement to that effect in that entry in the core rule book.
"PCs, regardless of size only have 5ft reach*, unless an ability or feat explicitly grants increased reach.
*Unless tiny size, which has 0ft reach"
My biggest gripe is not putting the rule in the core rule book and having it howl of the wild.
I can't think of example in the CRB where you would become large size and it didn't also explicitly list your reach but I likely would have come to the wrong conclusion because the rule was added after the fact.
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Note that the way monsters are written ALSO never treats reach like you should be referring to a size-based default. Even on a gargantuan creature, no written reach means 5ft, and reach values longer than that are written each time. This isn't just for PCs.
Howl of the Wild has a much more explicitly written reminder that IS specifically for Large PCs, because it brought new expectations of large PCs, but we were never treating that table as "default reach assigned by size", just as a guideline of common expectations, and a handy starting point when ruling on creatures without a published statblock.
Let's put aside that discussion because....
I think we can all agree that a Sprite, using Kaiju stance, will end up with the same reach as any other smalls or medium ancestry (because the rules about tiny PCs stop applying).
I agree that there is substantial evidence that points to that reach being 10ft with the specific attack the stance grants.
I just really hate how the rules were written and organized regarding reach.
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I mean, when they wrote the core rules for PCs and size there was no reason to anticipate that a PC would ever be large without an effect that increased their size (and we can specify what other effects this has in that effect.) Turns out, some number of years later, they decided "let's do Minotaur and Centaur ancestries- that'll be neat" and then had to write down rules for Large characters just like they did with Tiny characters in the Ancestry Guide.
Notably Howl of the Wild was released in May of 2024 and the remastered Player Core was November 2023. So there's no way the "basic rules" could have anticipated what was going to come in all future books, you want to do some amount of future proofing, but a potential future book might offer rules for Huge PCs but it's even more likely this will never happen, so is it worth devoting space to in a book?
Broadly, PF2e when it launched tried to remove as much as possible from size categories as related to PCs. The side effect of this is that you get some friction when you start pushing the bounds of "what is a normal size for a PC."
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My couple of thoughts:
I mean, when they wrote the core rules for PCs and size there was no reason to anticipate that a PC would ever be large without an effect that increased their size (and we can specify what other effects this has in that effect.) Turns out, some number of years later, they decided "let's do Minotaur and Centaur ancestries- that'll be neat" and then had to write down rules for Large characters just like they did with Tiny characters in the Ancestry Guide.
That works if we are talking about the original Core Rulebook. It is a weaker argument regarding Player Core since it only came out 6 months before Howl of the Wild - which indicates that both books were in development at or near the same time.
The reasoning that these particular rules weren't changed and therefore were copy/pasted without being looked at is reasonable, but it has a huge amount of assumption in it. It assumes that no one on the Player Core team looked at the size rules with the impending large size PCs in Howl of the Wild in mind, and it assumes that no one on the Howl of the Wild team brought up the desire to have the general rules for creature size looked at.
I do agree that the rules for creature size do not mandate changing reach when changing size and that a creature of larger sizes does not automatically get a larger reach for all of their attacks.
I will also agree with Claxon that this is a very strange result that is not very intuitive considering the table in the general rules for Size, Space, and Reach. The 'typical' reach isn't actually any sort of expectation that we can rely on. A more accurate description is just a bit of text saying that "Size tiny and smaller creatures have a reach of 0 feet, and Size small or larger creatures have a reach of 5 feet. Both of which can be changed with specific overrides listed on the attacks." Relegate the expectations for reach for larger creatures to the Building Creatures guidelines.
That works if we are talking about the original Core Rulebook. It is a weaker argument regarding Player Core since it only came out 6 months before Howl of the Wild - which indicates that both books were in development at or near the same time.
I certainly think it is possible that the final decision was not made on "whether Minotaurs were going to naturally have extra reach" 6 months before the book was released. Like Centaurs were always going to have 5' reach (even going back to 1e there was a Large Tall vs. Large Long distinction) so the question was whether the special case here was Centaurs having less reach than a normal Large creature or Minotaurs having easy access to 10' of reach (a 5th level ancestry feat, though nerfed in errata by making it a stance.)
Let's put aside that discussion because....
I think we can all agree that a Sprite, using Kaiju stance, will end up with the same reach as any other smalls or medium ancestry (because the rules about tiny PCs stop applying).
I agree that there is substantial evidence that points to that reach being 10ft with the specific attack the stance grants.
I just really hate how the rules were written and organized regarding reach.
That's all kinds of funny.
That's all kinds of funny.Let's put aside that discussion because....
I think we can all agree that a Sprite, using Kaiju stance, will end up with the same reach as any other smalls or medium ancestry (because the rules about tiny PCs stop applying).
I agree that there is substantial evidence that points to that reach being 10ft with the specific attack the stance grants.
I just really hate how the rules were written and organized regarding reach.
Can you elaborate on why? I didn't think those statement would be controversial or "funny" in any way.
And I guess to preemptively clarify what I think your concern is...
The Earth Shattering strike that Kaiju stance grants has the reach trait, which is why it has 10ft reach (5ft natural reach + reach trait).
You're... gonna have to convince your GM to "have encountered a Kaiju and survived" though, unless a Mightyfall Kobold could count :pWhat that should be is that the feat is Uncommon, so you will need to talk to your GM about getting access to it.
The mechanics can be re-themed. It doesn't necessarily have to be centered around Kaiju lore and flavor.
Or... just have a Kaiju encounter during your childhood in your backstory before picking your class.
You'd still need to talk with your GM, but that's one solution, especially if encountering that same Kaiju triggers trauma.
Or... just have a Kaiju encounter during your childhood in your backstory before picking your class.
It's always weird when your backstory involves you traveling half the world before level 1 though, since Mogaru doesn't visit Varisia. I guess that's why the feat is in the Tian Xia book. Most things in it should be somewhat rare in the Inner Sea.
Right, so... it does specify, like the others mentioned. It grants reach, by giving its attack the Reach trait.
Sort of.
The question boiled down to whether you would have 10ft reach or 15ft reach with the attack, because since it has the reach trait you add 5ft to reach. It doesn't directly state that your reach is 10ft with the attack.
If we used the chart I linked to earlier, you would (erroneously) conclude you should have 10ft natural reach and 15ft reach with the Earth Shattering attack.
Or... just have a Kaiju encounter during your childhood in your backstory before picking your class.It's always weird when your backstory involves you traveling half the world before level 1 though, since Mogaru doesn't visit Varisia. I guess that's why the feat is in the Tian Xia book. Most things in it should be somewhat rare in the Inner Sea.
A goblin pc in my game did so by ship in a stowed away in a pickle barrel.
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Can you elaborate on why? I didn't think those statement would be controversial or "funny" in any way.That's all kinds of funny.Let's put aside that discussion because....
I think we can all agree that a Sprite, using Kaiju stance, will end up with the same reach as any other smalls or medium ancestry (because the rules about tiny PCs stop applying).
I agree that there is substantial evidence that points to that reach being 10ft with the specific attack the stance grants.
I just really hate how the rules were written and organized regarding reach.
Because imagining a sprite in Kaiju stance with reach slamming creatures emulating a Kaiju creates an amusing picture in my mind's eye.
Some orc walking up to a sprite thinking "I'm going to crush this little fairie", then the sprite drops into a kaiju stance and starts jabbing from 10 feet away and kicking the hell out of the orc until it runs screaming is an hilarious image.
All PC characters have 5 foot reach by default, unless something states otherwise. Full stop.
The reach suggestions for monsters never enter into it.
All PC characters have 5 foot reach by default, unless something states otherwise. Full stop.
The reach suggestions for monsters never enter into it.
If only they had actually written it that way it would have been better and clearer.
And called the table I linked to earlier a "recommendation for NPC reach", but please note it's not called like that either. They simply call it "Size, Space, and Reach" and no indication (to me) that it's purely meant for NPCs.
Can you elaborate on why? I didn't think those statement would be controversial or "funny" in any way.That's all kinds of funny.Let's put aside that discussion because....
I think we can all agree that a Sprite, using Kaiju stance, will end up with the same reach as any other smalls or medium ancestry (because the rules about tiny PCs stop applying).
I agree that there is substantial evidence that points to that reach being 10ft with the specific attack the stance grants.
I just really hate how the rules were written and organized regarding reach.
Because imagining a sprite in Kaiju stance with reach slamming creatures emulating a Kaiju creates an amusing picture in my mind's eye.
Some orc walking up to a sprite thinking "I'm going to crush this little fairie", then the sprite drops into a kaiju stance and starts jabbing from 10 feet away and kicking the hell out of the orc until it runs screaming is an hilarious image.
Ah I see, it was completely unrelated to the rules but about the imagery it evokes. And yes, I absolutely love the imagery it evokes. A tiny sprite suddenly turning into a large "kaiju" and kicking some butt.
It honestly is a character I'd love to play if I found a table that started at 8th level and was willing to let me qualify for the stance to start with.