| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In another thread, I'm hearing the animist is a great class.
I'm reading the class and I'm not seeing it. It looks more like the psychic where a lot of great conceptual work was put in, but not much testing for playability. I'm not saying it is as bad as the psychic, but it looks too all over the place to be any good at any one thing.
It doesn't look like it can do the healer well like a cleric.
It's martial combat options don't stack with heroism when it uses the divine list and can cast heroism.
The spell selection is locked in according to apparition. Channeler's stance only works with apparition spells and not general divine spells.
It doesn't get the powerful caster feats like effortless concentration.
Even the vessel spells are all sustain like a witch. Sustain actions without effortless concentration always create an action economy drag.
How does this thing do in play? Anyone with much experience?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
1) It's the class with the best initiative (and seek action) by a landslide, thanks to Medium's Awareness that gives a very rare status bonus, and WIS casting. By level 20, if you took Canny Acumen, you're 4-5 points ahead than the rogue, investigator, gunslinger and ranger who got legendary perception and didn't neglect WIS. You're 2 points ahead than the rogue rolling legendary stealth with maxxed dex. You're 7 points ahead than every other non-WIS caster. So yeah, most of the time, you'll be the first to play and you know how huge an advantage it is.
2) It has free focus points increase and gets some of the best focus spells in the game, if not the best.
- Earth's Bile is ONE ACTION for 2d4+1/2 levels AOE damage.
- Embodiment of battle is a free scaling heroism + free reactive strike, and solves the druid conendrum: you can both fight AND cast spells, albeit at a -2 penalty (so stick to heals and buffs).
- Nymph's grace single-handedly wrecks mooks encounters (roll for confused every round on a 10-feet emanation, AND he cannot target you).
- Darkened forest form gives you druid-like utility out of combat by changing into animals and elemental forms.
- Garden of healing single-handedly solves all out of combat healing, without a need for medicine
And that's those I used, some others are certainly great as well.
3) It's got a great spell list - full access to the divine list + being able to grab up to 4 freebies per level which are all signature spells. Those freebies includes staples that the divine list might lack, like fireball and wall of stone, mist, true target, enlarge, interposing earth, quandary, unfathomable song, disappearance, invisibility, foresight... just pick and choose.
4) It's got a totally unfair advantage over other casters with quicken spell. Every other caster in the game can use it once a day. The animist can eventually use it four times a day.
5) Cardinal Guardians gives you a, once again, great bonus to casting spells or debuffing opponent that is almost as good as the totally upgraded focus spell from imperial sorcerer - except he can do it once per focus point using one extra action, you can do it every round using no extra action.
6) You can change your apparitions every day to tailor both your powers and your spell lists to what challenges you'll encounter.
As for concentration, pick liturgist. You'll get a toned-down version of effortless concentration as early as lvl 9. No other practice can compare, and that's actually a bad thing. You either be a liturgist, or lose a lot of power.
And that's just scratching the surface. It's like a druid done right.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1. You can't take Medium and Liturgist at the same time.
2. All the vessel spells require a sustain action, how did this play in the game?
-Nymph's Grace: I don't intend to be in 10 foot range using a sustain action.
-Darkened Forest Form is extremely limited in the forms you can take and requires a sustain action. Did you actually use it?
I'm not looking for theory here, I'm looking for play experience. Did you play the class and what did you use in battle.
3. The changeable spell list is the most interesting looking part.
4. Quicken spell four times per day? I'll have to see how that works.
5. I'll look at Cardinal Guardians.
6. Changing apparitions adds some flexibility that looks interesting.
The liturgist level 9 ability isn't a tone down Effortless Concentration. It's a feat that allows you to move while sustaining a vessel or apparition spell. Sometimes I don't like to move. It still isn't usable with 3 action spells like walls or an increased banish.
Since I consider the druid a highly effective class, I'd have to see how it compares. I can make a druid shine brighter than any other caster in the game. So the animist being better than a druid is a pretty high bar.
You have experience playing one. What was that like? I don't want theorycrafting. I want to know how they played by people that played them.
I've played 4 or 5 druids. I know how they play and it's very impressive. Played a few clerics and they are very good too. I'm playing two oracles right now and they are surprisingly powerful. Played a lot of sorcs and the sorc is great.
How does the animist play?
How do its rounds looks?
How easy is it to sustain a vessel spell while doing other casting?
How are their focus spells compared to Tempest Surge or Untamed Form or other high quality focus spells in play?
I don't want theorycrafting. I want practical play experience.
So I'm seeing the Liturgist can cast an apparition cantrip like quickened spell at level 17 plus as long as it is the first action they take.
I see. You can Apparition Quicken up to four times per day, once per apparition. It sounds like you lose access to that apparition after using it? And you can't go lower than 2 apparitions and keep using it. I see how that is multiple very limited apparition quickens per day.
That is pretty good.
Now I see why Liturgist is the only real choice for power as changing that vessel spell by changing the primary apparition is better than anything else offered by the other practices. Not loving that, but that particular ability is very powerful.
So anyone can take Medium's Awareness, but it has the wandering trait. I'm not see a prereq for it.
Cardinal Guardians is not easy to set up and has tracking issues as well having to track who failed the previous save. The sorc focus spell much easier to use. Not sure how attractive that is as in a group environment, the other PCs may waste the enemy with the reduction. I don't like even 1 round of set up.
But maybe could be useful with Liturgist Quicken Apparition Spell.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We have one in our SoT group, currently lvl 8. It is okay, but i am not really convinced so far - maybe its not built or played optimally, maybe high level play is different.
"Garden of healing single-handedly solves all out of combat healing"
i don't consider out of combat healing an issue in need of a solution, there are so many options...
Earths Bile is nice, but more as an additional 1 action added to real blasting. If you use channelers stance, you can't do both in the first turn.
I think it is mostly Liturgist that feels broken, with the free sustain when you move.
Embodiment of battle is sustain, basically making you slowed 1 - unless you are a Liturgist, then you just have to move every turn.
Did not see that in combat though, so its not based on play experience.
I see the druids primal list as a bigger asset i guess, the apparition spells can(!) be a good addition to the primal list, but other than fireball a lot of blasting staples are missing, and you have only a single slot per rank until level 10, where you get a second slot for your lower ranks - still no change to blasting.
In any case, my experience is limited as stated above, i'll give more credence to players that have seen higher level combat with the class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So you're using something like Embodiment of Battle. You have to sustain it, so that gives you two other actions to strike or do something else within a round. If you're hasted, you can't use the extra haste action to sustain the spell with a movement, but can use it to strike.
So with haste, your round could look something like:
1. Sustain or Sustain with a step, leap, or tumble through.
2. Attack three times or Cast a spell and Attack one time with Haste action or Maneuver, Attack two times with haste action added.
That's not terrible. If you're flying this becomes worse as you have to use a move action to stay flying. This makes sustain spells without effortless concentration worse.
It's not the greatest action economy, but you can cast while doing pretty well with weapons.
Though it's now pretty easy to acquire expert proficiency with martial weapons with any caster. Heroism adds what the vessel spell adds, but the vessel spell you can do all day.
To tell you the truth, the animist is looking less like the druid done right and more like the oracle done right. It's like a more flexible, diverse oracle that better embodies what Mysteries should have been.
The animist has better feats than the oracle too and more diverse spellcasting that feels more like the embodiment of some other spiritual connection.
I might have to give this a test run. I need a concept.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1. You can't take Medium and Liturgist at the same time.
I'm talking about the feat Medium's Awareness, not the practice.
2. All the vessel spells require a sustain action, how did this play in the game?
At low levels, you suck it up like you do with any sustain action, like flaming sphere or illusory creature.
At levels 9+, you can move while doing it.
-Nymph's Grace: I don't intend to be in 10 foot range using a sustain action.
That's the thing, you can choose to do it if you so wish, and it's actually pretty competitive.
-Darkened Forest Form is extremely limited in the forms you can take and requires a sustain action. Did you actually use it?
Elemental form gave me mostly burrow and flight. I think I used once a water elem for the swim speed. It's also free, while the druid needs a feat to get elemental forms.
Meanwhile, the animist can get monstruosity forms with a lvl 16 feat and bats/birds forms with a lvl 8 feat.
I'm not looking for theory here, I'm looking for play experience. Did you play the class and what did you use in battle.
I did play it as a full spellcaster, using earth's bile and blasts (either those from my spirits or those from the divine list) to blow the others to smithereens, with a medic dedication and Embodiment of balance in order to heal when needed.
3. The changeable spell list is the most interesting looking part.
4. Quicken spell four times per day? I'll have to see how that works.
5. I'll look at Cardinal Guardians.
6. Changing apparitions adds some flexibility that looks interesting.
Glad you like those parts.
The liturgist level 9 ability isn't a tone down Effortless Concentration. It's a feat that allows you to move while sustaining a vessel or apparition spell. Sometimes I don't like to move. It still isn't usable with 3 action spells like walls or an increased banish.
It's true that you cannot use it with 3 action spells, but being able to move while sustaining is still great in a lot of situations. For instance, and that happens to me all the time, i'm currently using Earth's Bile + a big spell when a friend drops further than 30 feet away. Without it, I have to move + heal (thus losing the focus) or move + doctor's visitation + sustain (thus not casting). With it, I can move while sustaining, then cast.
Also, if you look at some vessel spells, they give you bonus actions while sustaining.
For instance, Darkened Forest Form lets you change freely from an earth elemental to an air elemental if someone is running away. Devouring dark form gives you a free grapple or a free strike. River Carving Mountains gives you a free stride.
You have experience playing one. What was that like? I don't want theorycrafting. I want to know how they played by people that played them.
I've played 4 or 5 druids. I know how they play and it's very impressive. Played a few clerics and they are very good too. I'm playing two oracles right now and they are surprisingly powerful. Played a lot of sorcs and the sorc is great.
How does the animist play?
How do its rounds looks?
How easy is it to sustain a vessel spell while doing other casting?
How are their focus spells compared to Tempest Surge or Untamed Form or other high quality focus spells in play?
I don't want theorycrafting. I want practical play experience.
I really liked it. Sustain is not a big cost for me because I always was fond of sustained spells with other casters anyway (Flaming Sphere, Roaring Applause, Illusory Creature...) so it's much of the same.
I've played it as a caster, but a friend played it as a melee with max STR using embodiment of battle, and he really liked it (but it's easier with free archetype). It's what the battle oracle should have been.
Cardinal Guardians is not easy to set up and has tracking issues as well having to track who failed the previous save. The sorc focus spell much easier to use. Not sure how attractive that is as in a group environment, the other PCs may waste the enemy with the reduction. I don't like even 1 round of set up.
But maybe could be useful with Liturgist Quicken Apparition Spell.
Remember vessel spells are one action.
Earth's Bile + Phantasmagoria means every opponent hit by your earth's bile are now at -2 save to your Phantasmagoria.
I don't like the scaling on Earth's Bile, but the action economy is great and it is AOE. It's one of the more powerful low level damage focus spells for sure. You do have to choose that apparition as you only get the vessel spell for your primary apparition. So you definitely need a plan.
The wisdom based is nice as that makes it so you can focus on the four core stats like the druid and the remaster cleric.
That Medium's Awareness is pretty nice. It is hard to get bonuses to perception. Heroism is one of the better ways and it only lasts 10 minutes. This is all the time with Wisdom as a main stat. Pretty amazing.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Animist is a caster with some of the best action economy in the game, by far the greatest versatility, arguably some of the best blasting and gish power, and to top it all off they have the unique benefit of being able to completely reconfigure themselves from day to day, whether it's apparitions and the spells they add, or wandering feats. In general, their feats tend to be direct upgrades to equivalents on other casters, and to top it all off, you get more spell slots than 3-slot casters, though slightly fewer than 4-slot casters. The class is just monstrously complicated by 2e standards and needs to be built properly, but past that a lot of their basic build considerations become a solved game, and much of it will come down to adapting to suit your party's needs.
So let me know if I'm missing something.
Crafter in the Vault Traveling Workshop eventually gives you Legendary Crafting and Thievery, but only to craft things that you can use before the day is over. So getting feats for crafting and being a real crafter doesn't align well with the spell due to its limitations.
Boy, I really dislike abilities like this that pretend to make you this great crafter, but not really so if you want to craft you better take the actual skill and build it up.
Maybe I'm missing something, but that's how it reads to me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Crafter in the Vault Traveling Workshop eventually gives you Legendary Crafting and Thievery, but only to craft things that you can use before the day is over. So getting feats for crafting and being a real crafter doesn't align well with the spell due to its limitations.
That's not what the spell is for. The primary use of the spell is against hazards in encounters, where you go from zero to instantly legendary in Crafting and Thievery and equipped with all the tools you need to disable a hazard. As an added benefit, and if you have skill feats like Magical Crafting or Alchemical Crafting, you can also use this as an exploration ability to craft lots of consumables. You effectively become a mini-Rogue and mini-Alchemist all in one.
|
|
You effectively become a mini-Rogue and mini-Alchemist all in one.
Mini-Rogue for sure, that is excellent.
Alchemist, not so much, as you have to follow the regular crafting rules (do you have to pay?), can only use the items yourself as they vanish when they leave your possession or you don't have the apparition attuned anymore.
I can see the Animist being a good trap/hazard finder with that perception enhancing feat. Be good to take Rogue archetype and Trapfinder if you wanted to go in that direction.
Yeah, Crafter in the vault allows you to become instantly legendary in thievery with all the associated tools - as well as legendary in crafting, which doesn't exactly help with crafting per se but might help with some recall knowledge checks.
Since we're talking about recall knowledge, nobody also mentioned that the animist also gets up to 8 lore skills that can be switched every day.
Those lore are pretty specific and I strongly disagree with the Animist guide writer who said they could be used as a replacement for other skills - unless your GM is incredibly lenient. But still, hunting lore, moutain lore, forest lore and such can all come in handy in a pinch. It's not much, but it's there and it's free.
None of the apparitions give slow or haste? I'm not seeing it. They aren't on the divine list either.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I'm seeing the Liturgist can cast an apparition cantrip like quickened spell at level 17 plus as long as it is the first action they take.
I see. You can Apparition Quicken up to four times per day, once per apparition. It sounds like you lose access to that apparition after using it? And you can't go lower than 2 apparitions and keep using it. I see how that is multiple very limited apparition quickens per day.
That is pretty good.
You want liturgist for the level 9 benefit, not the level 17.
Free sustain as part of your move is amazing. Double sustain+ 2 steps as an elf is amazing. Free sustain and step when you cast a 2 action spell with archetype is great.
---
It's a very flexible class, but until you're high level and have access to multiple apparitions (i.e. more than 2) you are pretty limited in what you can do any given day.
---All that said:
I've only played animist in midlevels.
I'd compare him more to a "Divine Druid".You can either build him for Blasts, or for Gish.
As either one build, you won't outperform the dedicated builds for that sort of thing, but for a Divine caster you'll be really close.
As a blaster, you severely lack the high output blasts of Primal, as a Gish your action economy is pretty much spoken for and your offensive spells are taking a big hit.
Circle of Spirits and the ability to change your primary apparition which changes your vessel spell to be pretty powerful.
The vessel spells are a mixed bag. You might want to change it for different activities. The battle one if you want to use weapons. Maybe dark forest for shapeshift for fighting an enemy with movement or in a strange lair. Maybe Earth's bile for blasting.
|
|
Those lore are pretty specific and I strongly disagree with the Animist guide writer who said they could be used as a replacement for other skills - unless your GM is incredibly lenient. But still, hunting lore, moutain lore, forest lore and such can all come in handy in a pinch. It's not much, but it's there and it's free.
I mean...I DID emphasize that that part would be heavily GM dependent but I can't think of a practical use of something like Hunting Lore outside of knowing hunting techniques such a tracking which is knowledge that could be used to, you know...track. The only thing missing is your ability to actually spot tracks before following them would be perception, not survival. And it's not that the lore skills are completely replacing entire skills, just particular aspects. It's not like Hunting Lore should have you covered for subsisting, sensing direction or covering tracks as well nor can it benefit from any non-lore skill feats. Plus, the rules of Lore state:
"If you're making a check and multiple subcategories of Lore could apply, or a non-Lore skill could apply, you can use whichever skill you prefer. If there's any doubt whether a Lore skill applies to a specific topic or action, the GM decides whether it can be used or not. Even if you’re untrained in Lore, you can use it to Recall Knowledge."
Seems like a lot of unnecessary additional words to add for something that could (supposedly) only be used for Recall Knowledge which is already explained on it's own. Plus they aren't specifying Recall Knowledge in this paragraph either. (The mention of recall knowledge immediately below this paragraph is simply listing it as the untrained action of lore skills)
Either way, I'd rule it as such and my GM who is less lenient than I am would allow for it as well. But to be honest, I've yet to actually utilize the lore skills in such a way. The apparition spells on top of your animist spells already do a lot and I'm already focusing skill increases in survival for the feats. :P
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I LOVE the animist. I have a very hard time sticking with a character build and the animist fixes that. I used to love the thaumaturge for it's build diversity but the animist has surpassed it for its ability to dramatically change playstyles every adventuring day. I've been able to easily take on a horde of trolls with Earth's Bile. I took Weapon Proficiency and wield an ogre hook and with Grudge Strike, I can hit just about as hard and reliably as other standard martial classes. I'm in the middle of an encounter now that should be surpassing extreme difficulty due to the number of enemies but since they're mooks, Nymph's Grace is dominating and having this small army hack itself apart. I once got almost trapped alone with a portcullis blocking my way out of a dangerous situation. Darkened forest form let me move right through it to safety thanks to it granting pest form. With a mixture of luck, good educated guesses and knowledge of what my kit can do, I've been a very strong member of my party.
Alchemist, not so much, as you have to follow the regular crafting rules (do you have to pay?), can only use the items yourself as they vanish when they leave your possession or you don't have the apparition attuned anymore.
You count as having spent a day setting up, so you can just attempt a Crafting check to make items on the spot. There is usually a cost to this, so this isn't the same as advanced alchemy, but it is still a benefit otherwise only available through advanced alchemy.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah the apparition spells are a bit mixed. Pretty decent stuff in there but you certainly don't get everything. Also, you have only quite few slots to cast them. So, I don't really see that you can blast effectively with relevant spellslots for a medium-long adventuring day (your prepared slots arent good for it, because divine). It's more of a supplementary thing, with vessel spells and divine casting being your main juice.
Isn't divine wrath widely considered a bonkers blast spell for the divine list?
For sure, Divine is in a much greater spot than it was in the past, and it has now some "decent" blasts. But in a straight up comparison with Primal it is indeed behind.
Animist can leverage Bile+a few apparition spells+some divine to make do as a well-enough blaster, but a primal sorc or a druid, overall, will be higher.
Which spells and levels are we using for this comparison? How does a Druid blast better?
Using better spells.
As an example, Chain lightning.
You mean, the spell that gets out-blasted by spirit blast at the same rank? I certainly won't deny that chain lightning is a great spell, but unfortunately for your comparison it comes at a level where divine casters also get fantastic blasting too.
Unfortunately for Animist, there aren't any great high rank apparition blasts, so while Bile is very strong, he has to go with Divine blasts at later levels for spellslot blasts.
The Animist gets falling stars from their apparitions, so this isn't really true, and it seems you've forgotten about Channeler's Stance, which double-dips on its bonus thanks to earth's bile and can have its action cost eliminated at high level, and Cardinal Guardians, which adds a +2 to your spells. Although a Primal Sorcerer would certainly give the Animist a run for their money as one of the best blasters around, both handily beat a Druid.
(your prepared slots arent good for it, because divine).
A lot of people are saying this and it's true that we lose a couple staples like chain lightning, but the divine list after the remaster is now incredibly robust for blasting, especially at higher levels.
When you encounter undead or fiends (which are usually more than half your opponents in high level APs), nothing can compare to the power of the Holy Handgrenade ™ (i.e. Holy Cascade). 9d6+3d6/lvl is unmatched. That's 24d6 in a 9th level slot in a somewhat friendly 20 feet burst at 500 feet reach. Or you can use moonburst against undead for 20d10 (less friendly, more damage).
Likewise, Holy light is 10d6+4d6/lvl single target damage, so 34d6 in a 9th level slot. Again, nothing can compare.
Against non-unholy opponents, you say ? Divine Wrath is celebrated for a reason, it's a bit less damage and fort save, but it's friendly and sickens on a failure. Whispers of the void is nuts now. Spirit blast is great single target damage. Vampiric exsanguination is cumbersome to aim but gives back nice temp HP. Suspended retribution is death on a caster. Attack from within deals 2d8/lvl damage and frightens. Eclipse burst for all your army-wiping needs. Execute deals lvlx10 damage, which is your best bet against a single target on average (90 damage is about the same as 28d6).
And well, i'll stop there but I didn't even cover the top level spells.
Divine used to be crappy, it's now one of the best list for blasting. It's weak on the control department, though, lacking spells like slow, roaring applause, haste, synesthesia and the like.
|
|
Yeah, but then you'll have to compare it to 10th rank primal blasts like summon kaiju and cataclysm.And yes, a SINGLE Falling stars per day is exactly why they cannot blast as much as a Druid.You CAN cast it twice using your 10th level slot if you want....
Yeah. Really, my overall opinion is that the animist is at least good in just about any role, great in half of them but not the best at anything other than being able to be at least JUST good in everything given time. I'm really not a fan of the liturgist's dominance over the other practices and it might be a major factor as to why the animist might be considered broken by some. I'd have sort of liked if each apparition had some anathema attached to them (every other wisdom based caster has to deal with one or 2) and it'd be a nice hold over from the PF1 medium and it'd add a lot of extra roleplay value.
Spirit Blast is single target, what are you even comparing?
... blasting? As in, raw damage dealt with spells? What are you comparing?
And yes, a SINGLE Falling stars per day is exactly why they cannot blast as much as a Druid.
Did you forget that they also have two divine spell slots to blast with? And also, all of those other benefits that were mentioned?
Channeler stance, in my actual playthrough, has been an absolute trap. It affects only a scarce handful of slot spells, it takes away from the actions you want to be sustaining and switching spirits around to maximise your focus spells, and etc.
I have used that feat only when there was almost a full downturn round.
I've had a completely different experience, where it significantly added to my apparition slot damage, as there are quite a few spells to choose from when you choose the right apparitions. Not only did I get the time to do this at earlier levels, doing so was trivial at high level thanks to Cycle of Souls eliminating the action cost.
Cardinal is a good feat but not for blasting, for blasting it suffers from the same problem as the stance: not enough good apparition blasts.
Out of curiosity, were you just sticking to apparitions that didn't offer much damage? Because Steward of Stone and Fire offers fireball, volcanic eruption, and falling stars, Vanguard of Roaring Waters offers crashing wave, Reveler in Lost Glee offers wails of the damned, and Lurker in Devouring Dark offers arctic rift and implosion. I actually found it quite difficult to have an apparition loadout that didn't give me at least some attractive blasting options.
... really, behind all of this, it sounds like some of the opinions being made here are still based on the premaster divine list. Post-remaster, the divine list is actually amazing for blasting past the first few levels, since not only do you get plenty of incredibly powerful blasting spells, the spirit damage you deal is much less likely to hit resistances or immunities than most forms of energy damage. I don't think that extreme reliability is being factored in here either.
Crafter in the Vault Traveling Workshop eventually gives you Legendary Crafting and Thievery, but only to craft things that you can use before the day is over. So getting feats for crafting and being a real crafter doesn't align well with the spell due to its limitations.
Boy, I really dislike abilities like this that pretend to make you this great crafter, but not really so if you want to craft you better take the actual skill and build it up.
I believe your read on that is correct. However, in Pathfinder Society play, if you end up at a table where no one has Crafting or Thievery and you know it will come up in play, then switch out your apparition and you’re good to go. That’s especially important since you can keep your primary apparition for the spells/abilities that are more integral to your build. An animist’s apparitions are great not just for the rotating spells, but also the skills.
|
I've played several at low to mid levels and am now playing one from L12 to L16 (so far). I'll admit that the group I'm playing the high level one is NOT particularly high optimized (its NOT low optimization either. Sort of average ish) so I've deliberately NOT been trying to break the game. Not nerfing myself by any means, but not trying to wring every iota of power out of it either.
It is definitely a quite powerful class but I don't think that it is overpowered (or, at least, not very).
Its INSANELY flexible both in the builds it can support and in what an individual can do from Day to Day or even encounter to encounter. It largely scratches (for me) the same itch as a druid (lots and lots of tricks in your bag).
But it is NOT as powerful in play as it can appear on paper.
Its biggest problem in my experience is that it always has very good options for just about anything but rarely the BEST options. And it just can't do EVERYTHING (action economy, where you've put your feats and money and stats). And lots of things that seem really, really cool on paper don't quite work out right.
Lets take the Liturgist free movement on a sustain as an example. Oh, its very very nice. But, generally (with lots of exceptions) it frees up your third action (you move and throw a spell, or move and strike twice). And third actions aren't usually (again, lots of exceptions) THAT important.
Channelers stance I rarely bother with as I don't want to spend the action.
Its often just got TOO many options. Analysis paralysis is a thing, you can end up dithering over things that are pretty close in effectiveness.
And its versatility is overstated. If you want to go into melee you've got to spend resources (raising Con, good armor, etc) there and not somewhere else.
Lots of its spells are second rate. Now, having bunches of second rate spells has its own kind of power but the spells are still second rate.
I'm NOT in any way saying that it is bad or underpowered. Its not, its a great class. But I AM saying that it is about on par with a druid (its closest competitor in my mind, as they both get huge amounts of their power from their flexibility).
One thing it absolutely DOES have going for it is its ability to keep going and going and going and going. No 15 minute adventuring day for the Animist :-). At the end of most adventuring days I still have some of my highest level spells remaining.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
it looks too all over the place to be any good at any one thing.
Pretty much that.
It isn't a class for powergamers. You aren't going to end up S-tier at anything. Anything an Animist can do, a different class can do better.
Animist trades high end specialist power for flexibility. Animist can play second fiddle to anything.
No, you won't be a fantastic magic damage blaster. But you can be a blaster caster reasonably well with the right choices of Divine spells and apparitions.
No, you won't be a fantastic crafter. But you can be a reasonable crafter short term with the right choice of apparition.
And so on. You can be second best at most anything - as needed for a day. And being second best in class is likely better for a lot of roles in an actual party than the other characters would be in trying to fill in for that needed role.
Meaning that an Animist is going to be:
* a better melee martial for a day than a Sorcerer is.
* a better alchemist for a day than a Fighter is.
* a better rogue for a day than a Witch is.
* a better blaster caster for a day than a Bard is.
It is the ultimate flex-pick.
Yeah the apparition spells are a bit mixed. Pretty decent stuff in there but you certainly don't get everything. Also, you have only quite few slots to cast them. So, I don't really see that you can blast effectively with relevant spellslots for a medium-long adventuring day (your prepared slots arent good for it, because divine). It's more of a supplementary thing, with vessel spells and divine casting being your main juice.Isn't divine wrath widely considered a bonkers blast spell for the divine list?
Divine Wrath is decent as a secondary blasting spell as it has good riders. It doesn't have high damage and it doesn't double on a crit fail.
The sickened and possibly slowed is very nice.
The Remastered Cleric is definitely stronger than the premaster cleric for blasting.
Using better spells.
As an example, Chain lightning.
You mean, the spell that gets out-blasted by spirit blast at the same rank? I certainly won't deny that chain lightning is a great spell, but unfortunately for your comparison it comes at a level where divine casters also get fantastic blasting too.
Unfortunately for Animist, there aren't any great high rank apparition blasts, so while Bile is very strong, he has to go with Divine blasts at later levels for spellslot blasts.The Animist gets falling stars from their apparitions, so this isn't really true, and it seems you've forgotten about Channeler's Stance, which double-dips on its bonus thanks to earth's bile and can have its action cost eliminated at high level, and Cardinal Guardians, which adds a +2 to your spells. Although a Primal Sorcerer would certainly give the Animist a run for their money as one of the best blasters around, both handily beat a Druid.
Primal gets chain lightning which is far more precise and multitarget.
Spirit Blast is single target. How are you even comparing these? You're thinking of 8th rank spirit song, which is the AOE version of Spirit Blast. It's a cone though, so much harder to land precise. An 8th rank chain lightning does 10d12 and an 8th rank spirit blat is 14d6 spirit.
Both Divine and primal get eclipse burst and sunburst, so that is a wash at high level though both those spells are hard to use in tight quarters. Both get falling stars.
Primal gets phantom orchestra which is a pretty amazing sustain damage spell.
The druid with Effortless Concentration can use phantom orchestra and wrathful storm with ease while stacking more hammer spells.
None of the apparitions give slow or haste? I'm not seeing it. They aren't on the divine list either.This is true. However, a spellcasting dedication like druid can fix this. Also, check out the divine spell, shock to the system. It's high level but REALLY cool.
Primal has shock to the system as well. I can be a nice spell.
|
|
Divine Wrath is decent as a secondary blasting spell as it has good riders. It doesn't have high damage and it doesn't double on a crit fail.
The sickened and possibly slowed is very nice.
The Remastered Cleric is definitely stronger than the premaster cleric for blasting.
Divine Wrath also only targets enemies which is VERY nice.
But they both are definitely inferior to the WONDERFUL blast spell that is Chain Lightning. And that Animists just do not get access to.
I don't worry too much about the length of the adventuring day. A day can be anything from one encounter when hex crawling to a dungeon if dungeon crawling with a mix of low to moderate low resource use encounters mixed with occasional high resource use encounter. The only people I see run out of resources are players that like to toss a heavy spell every turn whether it is needed or not. Martials can go all day. Well managed casters know when to ramp up the power and when to rely on cantrips and smaller attacks.
I think I have to play the animist and figure out how it works to see if I can find a high performing build.
Are people forgetting that the status bonus on Channeler's Stance applies to the persistent damage on earth's bile, not just its initial damage?
The divine list doesn't cut it for pure blasting. Spirit Blast looks good with so many dice and all, but it's before you realize the brutal impact of being able to target multiple, often many enemies at huge range with a Chain Lightning, Eclipse Burst, Desiccate. It's no match in that particular discipline.
Eclipse burst is also a divine spell.