Kineticist really needs new impulses.

[Easl]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Generally you're activating a stance and staying in it.

Then using an overflow ability as often as possible.

They fortunately made sustaining an impulse easily with a level 12 feat.

Then you're working in other blasts and abilities as needed with some upgrades proving inferior to the original form like fiery body one where you get a free move with the free sustain and it becomes a regular move once you get fiery body for a minute duration.

You don't need a whole lot of impulses.

I...kinda agree.

I think it's pretty easy for a player to come up with a combat rotation of just a few impulses, if that's the style they like to play. A wider range of combat impulses will mostly just support circumstantial uses. Some more composite impulses would be cool just thematically, but they aren't needed to make a combat-effective kineticist.

It's why in my first post I advocated for more utility impulses. I think direct damage is already pretty well covered by what's in RoE. Throw in more exploration, investigation, intrigue, hazard-addressing etc. related impulses. If we must see more combat impulses, focus on battlefield control, terrain, buff, debuff, etc. Since these can be used in addition to pure blasting, they open up the flexibility of what a kin does in combat. But direct damage? Once you've got 2-4 2a overflow AoE blasts with various secondary effects, you don't really need #s 5-8.

I'll also agree with a previous poster's ask for more kin related magical items. Give'em stuff to blow all their money on. :)

[Fabios]

Easl wrote:

I...kinda agree.
I think it's pretty easy for a player to come up with a combat rotation of just a few impulses, if that's the style they like to play. A wider range of combat impulses will mostly just support circumstantial uses. Some more composite impulses would be cool just thematically, but they aren't needed to make a combat-effective kineticist.

The problem Is that perfecting a combat rotation IS the correct way of playing a kineticist.

You're not a caster without spellslots, you're a martial that feels quirky; any given kineticist can have at best 13 or so kineticist's feats, at least 2 of them are probably not an impulse (free sustain, trick magic items but class feat, the weapons stuff etc.) so that leaves you with 10 spells you can use AT LEVEL 10! Some of them are more or less setup (walls, elemental forms, stances) and that leaves you with even fewer actual "spells to use", with that small of a Number you cannot really afford versatility or utility.

And some elements even lack those! Wood has ONE USEFUL TWO ACTION IMPULSE! (Timber sentinel), like, c'mon It's absurd!

[LinnormSurface]

I would really like to see some more impulses, especially utility ones or ones that affect downtime.

I think as far as anything actually necessary, I'd say Earth could really use a lowest-level damage impulse for aerial foes(maybe something like a burst of rock spikes? just to vary the damage types up from being all bludgeoning)

for things I'd really want to see:
- some sort of Air impulse that creates an enduring storm-like effect(personally, Storm Spiral being an instantaneous effect just doesn't do it for me)
- an earlier Wood impulse that creates a tree that you attack with(compared to the two 18th-level impulses that make one or more such trees)
- definitely a Metal impulse to make creatures count as wearing metal armor

as far as things that feel less necessary:
- something that widens skill junctions or otherwise lets you improve certain skill checks(I've long wanted to make an Air/Water kineticist who can use their abilities to be supernaturally good at Sailing Lore checks)
- an ice armor impulse for Water would be neat(perhaps medium armor that inflicts cold damage on melee hits, but is vulnerable to fire damage somehow?)
- some more damage impulses, honestly(just for variety, mostly, and to make sure you can be an ice-only Water kineticist and a liquid water-only Water kineticist (for example, although Air has this issue with electricity a bit too) while still having a decent set of interesting options)
- some single-target damage impulses would be nice, as well
- impulses that draw on the widened elemental themes implied by the Versatile Elements feat(Like air impulses that do cold damage, could even have VE as a prerequisite if they're really out there)
- impulses that draw on the themes of the elemental lords(crystal-Earth for Sairazul, alchemy-Metal for Laudinmio, smoke-Fire for Ymeri, etc(could be a good place to fit effects that can more easily target Fortitude or Will as well, since they're partly drawing on metaphorical associations with their element)
- more composite impulses would be neat, though admittedly I don't have much interest in three or more elements for them(though then again I could see that being useful as something to benefit builds that decide to spread out that much)
- not strictly an impulse, but feats to improve and add onto certain impulses that feel like common picks or otherwise have room for that sort of thing would be neat(Like increasing the distance Flying Flame travels or letting you use Geologic Attunement outside of an encounter)

[Ryangwy]

Fabios wrote:

The problem Is that perfecting a combat rotation IS the correct way of playing a kineticist.
You're not a caster without spellslots, you're a martial that feels quirky; any given kineticist can have at best 13 or so kineticist's feats, at least 2 of them are probably not an impulse (free sustain, trick magic items but class feat, the weapons stuff etc.) so that leaves you with 10 spells you can use AT LEVEL 10! Some of them are more or less setup (walls, elemental forms, stances) and that leaves you with even fewer actual "spells to use", with that small of a Number you cannot really afford versatility or utility.

And some elements even lack those! Wood has ONE USEFUL TWO ACTION IMPULSE! (Timber sentinel), like, c'mon It's absurd!

I'm fairly certain it was brought up before that each element's balance of overflow/stance/reaction/three-action impulses is entirely intentional to give each element a different feel and they aren't going to substantially change that when printing new ones. Wood has more stances and three actions and that's just how it is.

(Also, what do you mean lacking two action impulses? They have a damaging one at 1st level and another at 4th, and a healing one at 6th. Being able to pivot between defense and offense on their 2 actions is pretty good?)

[ornathopter]

Also there's no 'correct' way to play any class. Some ways are better at certain goals than others, but few ways are unusably bad overall and no goal is more or less valid than another. If someone wants to spend as many feats as they can on out of combat utility stuff, then they're exactly as correct as someone focusing on doing damage as many ways as they possibly can, as long as they and their group are having a good time.

[Fabios]

Ryangwy wrote:

[

I'm fairly certain it was brought up before that each element's balance of overflow/stance/reaction/three-action impulses is entirely intentional to give each element a different feel and they aren't going to substantially change that when printing new ones. Wood has more stances and three actions and that's just how it is.

(Also, what do you mean lacking two action impulses? They have a damaging one at 1st level and another at 4th, and a healing one at 6th. Being able to pivot between defense and offense on their 2 actions is pretty good?)

To put it bluntly, those two impulses suck so they might as well not have them.

Tumbling lumber Is barely usable when you get It and It scales so horrendously bad that you're never gonna use It if you want to have any semblance of optimization, healing herbs (the healing thing at six) It's decent, not good but decent, but you can only use It once per Person, doesn't scale well and its niche Isn't that well covered (healing status effects).

Also, what i'm saying It's that even if it's intentional it's a bad choice on their part, three action impulses (since they almost all require sustaining It) force a kineticist into a "sustain+non overflow Two actions impulse" which would be cool if the wood kineticist had more options than "lol let's spam Timber sentinel".
Timber sentinel it's egregious honestly, It might as well be the only reason wood Is as useful as It Is, a first level impulse cannot be the whole pivot of an element

[Ryangwy]

Fabios wrote:

To put it bluntly, those two impulses suck so they might as well not have them.
Tumbling lumber Is barely usable when you get It and It scales so horrendously bad that you're never gonna use It if you want to have any semblance of optimization, healing herbs (the healing thing at six) It's decent, not good but decent, but you can only use It once per Person, doesn't scale well and its niche Isn't that well covered (healing status effects).

Also, what i'm saying It's that even if it's intentional it's a bad choice on their part, three action impulses (since they almost all require sustaining It) force a kineticist into a "sustain+non overflow Two actions impulse" which would be cool if the wood kineticist had more options than "lol let's spam Timber sentinel".
Timber sentinel it's egregious honestly, It might as well be the only reason wood Is as useful as It Is, a first level impulse cannot be the whole pivot of an element

You missed out hail of splinters, 1d4 + 1d4 persistent is the highest amoutn of damage of a 1st level overflow damaging impulse. But if damage is really your greatest concern then... go to another element? Like yeah, if you insist on not using either Tumbling Lumber or your Kinetic Blast or a stance like Ravel of Thorns plus movement then... why are you even playing mono-wood?

Seriously, kineticist has tons of in-class good options, wanting every element to have an 'optimal' routine just takes all the flavour out of them and makes going for more elements boring. Besides, the three action overflows need you to, you know, reactivate your gate anyway.

[Blue_frog]

Fabios wrote:

To put it bluntly, those two impulses suck so they might as well not have them.
Tumbling lumber Is barely usable when you get It and It scales so horrendously bad that you're never gonna use It if you want to have any semblance of optimization, healing herbs (the healing thing at six) It's decent, not good but decent, but you can only use It once per Person, doesn't scale well and its niche Isn't that well covered (healing status effects).

Also, what i'm saying It's that even if it's intentional it's a bad choice on their part, three action impulses (since they almost all require sustaining It) force a kineticist into a "sustain+non overflow Two actions impulse" which would be cool if the wood kineticist had more options than "lol let's spam Timber sentinel".
Timber sentinel it's egregious honestly, It might as well be the only reason wood Is as useful as It Is, a first level impulse cannot be the whole pivot of an element

I think everybody agrees that more options = good, so more impulses would be great for the kineticist - especially since he gets so many to choose from. Like you said, it's pretty hard to play a one-element kineticist throughout 20 levels, because you'll eventually run out of good stuff to get. It's doable, mind you, but certainly not optimized.

However, I'd also like to defend the wood kineticist that you keep bashing, because it's IMO one of the strongest ones. The biggest DPS is Fire, no surprise there, but Wood has a lot going for it - and not because of Timber Sentinel.

First of all, you said yourself that its junction is the best in the game - it's actually not only the best junction, but one of the best abilites any class gets, period. Yes, it's that good. Everytime you use a wood impulse, you get your lvl temp hp. That's pretty insane. Replenishment of war is widely considered to be one of the best Warpriest feats AND you need to use a specific weapon AND you need to hit (nothing on a fail) AND it's only half level unless you crit.

To put things into perspective, getting your lvl temp hp EVERY DAMN ROUND is akin to shield blocking with a top level sturdy shield every round - except it's totally free action-wise, it can be divided between many attacks, it costs no money and it can be applied to any kind of damage (spells, hazards, strikes). Oh, and it can also be combined with a regular shield block since you have free hands anyway. Either use the s%!$ty free one from your 1st level impulse or, if you want to double down on tankyness, invest in a sturdy shield yourself. The only thing that compares is a barbarian taking Renewed Vigor, except it costs them an action and a lvl 8 feat instead of being free from lvl 1 onwards.

You're saying that it's hard to get those temp HP because wood has few good impulses, but elemental blast IS an impulse, so any time you use it, you get those temp HP, even if you miss.

You have one of the best stances with Drifting Pollen (with safe elements) so all enemies in your aura need to save EVERY ROUND and on a miss they get sickened 1 and dazzled - and they cannot get rid of both conditions unless they lose at least an action retching and beating your DC again. Sickened is -1 on everything (remember how people praise Dirge of Doom ?), dazzled is a great condition, and unless they want to keep it permanently, you also slowed them at least 1.

At level 8, if you went single gate, you can snatch Jagged Berms which is wall of stone on steroids.

You also get Sanguivolent roots, that often gets slept on but that can slowly turn the tide of a fight, much like a Fire Kineticist aura. Cast it early in the fight and unless you're fighting in wide open spaces, it basically encompasses everyone in melee, dealing damage to EVERY ENEMY EVERY ROUND and healing EVERY FRIEND EVERY ROUND as long as you sustain. You might think the damage is piddly but it's wide, it's friendly, and since healing is based on the most damage you've dealt, unless every enemy saves, you'll heal your party for an average 5 damage every round at level 8. At level 20, it's 9d6 damage/round for every opponent and half that as HP for everyone - be the Shadow Priest you wanted to play in early WoW.

That's on top of being tanky as f**!, being able to protect with a tree, sickening and dazzling everyone on sight, healing in a pinch and dealing respectable damage. And you can do that all day long.

Why respectable damage ? I saw you dismiss non-fire kineticist damage as laughable, comparing things like Hail of Thorns to top level caster spells. But the kineticist isn't a caster, he doesn't need to manage his resources, so he's more akin to a melee.

So let's compare a giant barbarian to a kineticist with weapon infusion (sadly, a tax feat).

At lvl 1, a wood kineticist can cast hail of thorns for 1d4 + 1d4 persistent, then open back his gate and get a free element blast for 1d8+3 (at melee range with backstabber for 1 more damage OR using reach OR using thrown at 20 feet max OR only 1d8+1 at 50 feet OR 1d8 at more).

On a hit and failed save, that's at least 12,5 damage, more if persistent ticks, much more if there are more opponents. And hail deals half damage/half persistent on a successful save so it still adds up.

Meanwhile, barbarian with d12 weapon deals 1d12+10 on each attack, so 16,5 for every hit. That's much better (and it should be) against one opponent but falls off against more, and is less versatile.

At lvl 5, a wood kineticist now casts hail for 3d4+3d4 and hits for 2d8+4. That's 13 on a single target + 15 on every target in the cone after only one tick, so 28 average on one opponent, 15 on those who failed, 7 on those who succeeded.

Meanwhile, barbarian deals 2d12+10 on one target per hit so 23. If he hits with two attacks that's awesome, if not, well.

At lvl 11 barbarian's rage got better, he got weapon specialization and 20 STR. He now hits for 2d12+17, average 30 per hit.

BUT the kineticist can still use hail of thorns for 6d4+6d4 and his blast is now 3d8+4, average on one target after one tick 47.

If they're already bleeding, you can of course replace it with Tumbling Lumber.

OF COURSE it depends on positioning, on whether the kineticist can use his 3 actions, of how much reflexes the opponents have, and OF COURSE the barbarian should still come out on top against a single target. You might also point out that the kineticist has less accuracy than the barbarian at level 5-6 and 13-14, but he actually has more at lvl 19-20.

But that's still perfectly decent damage. Let's not forget that the wood kineticist can also heal, protect, hit at 100 feet range, create walls, sicken people, change his damage to vitality against undead, or lock people in mazes (and if he branches out (haha, branch, wood), he can eventually fly or become invisible or whatever).

Anyway, I don't understand this wood hate because it's probably one of the most serviceable as a monoelement build.

Here's an example:

Quote:

1 - Single Gate Wood (Impulse junction), Hail of Thorns, Hardwood Armor, Weapon infusion
2 - Timber Sentinel
4 - Safe elements
5 - Expand Portal (Critical blast), Fresh Produce
6 - Wooden Palisade
8 - Elemental Overlap (Jagged Berns). Retrain Wooden Palisade to Dash of Herbs
9 - Expand Portal (Aura Junction), Drifting Pollen
10 - Sanguivolent Roots
12 - Aura Shaping
13 - Expand Portal (Resistance), Hedge Maze OR Witchwood seed
14 - Effortless Impulse
16 - Imperious Aura
17 - Expand Portal (Skill), Witchwood Seed OR Hedge Maze
18 - Thousand Lashes of the weeping willow
20 - Kinetic Pinnacle.

That's a perfectly effective tank/controller/secondary healer with only a single gate (well, lvl 17 is a bit of a downer but eh) and no archetype.

You can also decide to go with Ravel of Thorns instead of Drifting pollen, especially if you eventually dual gate into earth, especially after Aura Shaping, effectively locking everybody in place.

[YuriP]

Ryangwy wrote:

Fabios wrote:

The problem Is that perfecting a combat rotation IS the correct way of playing a kineticist.
You're not a caster without spellslots, you're a martial that feels quirky; any given kineticist can have at best 13 or so kineticist's feats, at least 2 of them are probably not an impulse (free sustain, trick magic items but class feat, the weapons stuff etc.) so that leaves you with 10 spells you can use AT LEVEL 10! Some of them are more or less setup (walls, elemental forms, stances) and that leaves you with even fewer actual "spells to use", with that small of a Number you cannot really afford versatility or utility.

And some elements even lack those! Wood has ONE USEFUL TWO ACTION IMPULSE! (Timber sentinel), like, c'mon It's absurd!

I'm fairly certain it was brought up before that each element's balance of overflow/stance/reaction/three-action impulses is entirely intentional to give each element a different feel and they aren't going to substantially change that when printing new ones. Wood has more stances and three actions and that's just how it is.

(Also, what do you mean lacking two action impulses? They have a damaging one at 1st level and another at 4th, and a healing one at 6th. Being able to pivot between defense and offense on their 2 actions is pretty good?)

Finally, someone bought the fight that I was not wanting if the first to buy alone! : P

I also have this view that the different elements have strengths and weaknesses by design. For me, the kineticist idea is precisely that you can play with a single element for mechanical or thematic reasons and make the most of it, but will keep the obvious weaknesses of that element. Or divide itself into multiple elements seeking to benefit from the coverage over the weaknesses of each other at the cost of sacrificing junctions.

This does not mean that I do not think that the kineticist does not deserve new impulses. In fact, it is the opposite, once released, to me, he should receive new impulses to each new book released the same way that the casters receive new spells. This should over time cover part of the weaknesses of some elements, such as, for example, perhaps adding an ice armor/shield to the water kineticist. However, it will hardly remedy them completely or make them comparatively strong to the defensive elements.

Like many, I also think there is a lot of space for utilitarian impulses that will not compete for a lot of space in the kineticist's action economy. But I would also like to see some combat ones, even multi element kineticists have points where versatility can be improved. For example, my group's kineticist has recently participated in a Boss Fight against the Manifestation of Dahak. One of the weaknesses he felt is that against very high fortitude creatures like this, even having 3 elements (fire, wood, and metal), most of his combat impulses did not work because the enemy was immune to fire (and converting immunity into resistance) and have a very high fortitude. So there is still plenty of room for combat impulses in the class.

As for more elements is something I would also like to see. Although in lore issues this means more planes. That said, in PF1E the kineticist also synchronized with other planes other than elementals, so there is room for it here.

[QuidEst]

I'll also give a shout-out to Extended Kinesis being incredible on Wood. Being able to rapidly make fruit, vegetables, flowers, herbs, and trees, as well as simple wooden tools, is some excellent versatility out of combat.

Wood Kineticist is also amazing in any campaign dealing with undead, being able to hand out level or level + 1 void resistance to the party. Fresh Produce puts in work.

[Deriven Firelion]

Fabios wrote:

Ryangwy wrote:

[

I'm fairly certain it was brought up before that each element's balance of overflow/stance/reaction/three-action impulses is entirely intentional to give each element a different feel and they aren't going to substantially change that when printing new ones. Wood has more stances and three actions and that's just how it is.

(Also, what do you mean lacking two action impulses? They have a damaging one at 1st level and another at 4th, and a healing one at 6th. Being able to pivot between defense and offense on their 2 actions is pretty good?)

To put it bluntly, those two impulses suck so they might as well not have them.

Tumbling lumber Is barely usable when you get It and It scales so horrendously bad that you're never gonna use It if you want to have any semblance of optimization, healing herbs (the healing thing at six) It's decent, not good but decent, but you can only use It once per Person, doesn't scale well and its niche Isn't that well covered (healing status effects).

Also, what i'm saying It's that even if it's intentional it's a bad choice on their part, three action impulses (since they almost all require sustaining It) force a kineticist into a "sustain+non overflow Two actions impulse" which would be cool if the wood kineticist had more options than "lol let's spam Timber sentinel".
Timber sentinel it's egregious honestly, It might as well be the only reason wood Is as useful as It Is, a first level impulse cannot be the whole pivot of an element

This is some of what I'm talking about. Some impulses are just bad. Why add more impulses when you could get more bang for buck design work by shoring up the nearly useless or unclear impulses. Give every element a passover and make all the weak, unclear impulses stronger so the existing choices are competitive before stacking on more impulses no one will bother to use unless you make sure they are competitive and useful to start with.

[Lucas Yew]

More options for a crunchy game are always welcome. Though I'd also like more elements (mostly setting agnostic and more defined, so some separations like Lightning, Cold, etc.).

Anyways, in the case of the Kineticist class I think it needs a reprint or remaster with new licensing firstmost.

[YuriP]

Kineticist is already a post-remaster class using ORC license. RoE won't get a remaster because in practice it was the first "remastered" book.

[Zoken44]

my two cents: I like that the different elements have different strengths and weaknesses. I also think that having an "optimal Rotation" especially for a class like the kineticist (which I still think of as more of a spell caster than a martial) is kind of silly.

And of course, I want more impulse options, playing into their strengths, or giving them new ones that don't overlap with others.

[Karys]

I would love to see new options for Kineticist the same way as I would any other class, more options are neat to have. Can't say I think Kineticist specifically needs them, but would certainly love to see it.

[AnimatedPaper]

YuriP wrote:

I also have this view that the different elements have strengths and weaknesses by design. For me, the kineticist idea is precisely that you can play with a single element for mechanical or thematic reasons and make the most of it, but will keep the obvious weaknesses of that element. Or divide itself into multiple elements seeking to benefit from the coverage over the weaknesses of each other at the cost of sacrificing junctions.

In case it was unclear or if anyone missed it, this is specifically confirmed by the developers that they did this, and did it on purpose. In the playtest after-action report, there's a chart towards the bottom showing how they designed the playtest impulses, though they said that wouldn't necessarily be how they showed up on the actual class.

[Fabios]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

YuriP wrote:

I also have this view that the different elements have strengths and weaknesses by design. For me, the kineticist idea is precisely that you can play with a single element for mechanical or thematic reasons and make the most of it, but will keep the obvious weaknesses of that element. Or divide itself into multiple elements seeking to benefit from the coverage over the weaknesses of each other at the cost of sacrificing junctions.

In case it was unclear or if anyone missed it, this is specifically confirmed by the developers that they did this, and did it on purpose. In the playtest after-action report, there's a chart towards the bottom showing how they designed the playtest impulses, though they said that wouldn't necessarily be how they showed up on the actual class.

I agree with this, i disagree with how they actually made the class.

Junctions are either strong or completely useless and that strongly encourages forking the path

[Gaulin]

I don't agree with everything fabios says, but yeah I don't think getting a free impulse junction and the other small perks a single element kineticist gets are enough to compensate for getting access to the many impulses and other junction options you get for forking the path. Especially when, as fabios said, there are more than a couple duds as junction options, or at least options that might not fit what your build might want. For example, since we're talking about wood, the skill junction and aura junction are not things I am likely ever to take.

Also, on the main topic of the thread. Just to share some of my play experience, I currently am playing a water/wood/air kineticist at level 8. I am having a great time. And while I realize that every class has their strengths and weaknesses, I prefer classes have options they can take to mitigate those weaknesses. For example, we ended up fighting a slightly higher level enemy with high reflex and evasion, and it felt pretty crappy. Granted I had options to support the rest of the group so I wasn't useless, but I would like a damage option or two between those three elements that wasn't a reflex save. And I know elemental blast exists, but personally I see that as more of a filler move, not something you fall back on and be as effective as the rest of your party. It is more akin to a caster out of spell spots.

[YuriP]

The question of junctions are worthwhile or not is already an individual issue of them and not exactly a class design problem.

I believe that almost all fire kineticist want to catch their aura Junction as soon as possible, even competing with the need for each build to gain access to other elements. On the other hand, Aura Junction of wood is a shame!

It is the same problem that occurs with their own impulses, spells and even some subclasses in the game. It has a lot of good and bad stuff mixed and we fall into the concept of as half full or half empty. If you focus on weaknesses, everything will look bad with some good options, but if you focus on strengths it will look great with some bad options. When this happens is because the problem is not in design, but in the options themselves.

[ottdmk]

Blue_frog wrote:

<Some great analysis work on Mono Wood>

I really enjoyed this, but I feel compelled to point out one flaw in your analysis.

You can't use Weapon Infusion with the free Elemental Blast from Channel Elements.

RoE pg 15 wrote:

Your kinetic aura activates, and as a part of this

action, you can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or a 1-action stance impulse.

RoE pg 21 wrote:

If your next action is an Elemental Blast, choose a weapon shape for it to take.

The Elemental Blast is a subordinate action of Channel Elements. You can't Weapon Infusion Free Action and then Channel Elements; that doesn't meet the "your next action" clause of Weapon Infusion. And you can't insert Weapon Infusion between Channel Elements and its subordinate Blast either.

[Gaulin]

YuriP wrote:

The question of junctions are worthwhile or not is already an individual issue of them and not exactly a class design problem.

I believe that almost all fire kineticist want to catch their aura Junction as soon as possible, even competing with the need for each build to gain access to other elements. On the other hand, Aura Junction of wood is a shame!

It is the same problem that occurs with their own impulses, spells and even some subclasses in the game. It has a lot of good and bad stuff mixed and we fall into the concept of as half full or half empty. If you focus on weaknesses, everything will look bad with some good options, but if you focus on strengths it will look great with some bad options. When this happens is because the problem is not in design, but in the options themselves.

I don't disagree with you, but when every element has a dud or three in the junction department, by the time you get to high level as a mono element kineticist, you end up taking the dud since you have no other option. This makes the main draw of being mono element at early levels, getting a free impulse junction, a lot less attractive.

Personally in an ideal world, yes abilities that are lacking would be buffed. But that's just not likely to happen. We all know that errata comes very slowly and it rarely hits issues like these. I feel it's a lot more realistic to hope for future options that patch up these holes, instead of hoping paizo goes back to the drawing board and rebalances a ton of stuff. I never understand why people hope and plead for that sort of thing when the only time it has ever really happened was when classes got remastered.

[QuidEst]

Mono-element is a deliberate self-imposed restriction and build, rather than being something like a subclass. Like a lot of things in PF2, there are some tools to mitigate a popular build that would normally be flat-out worse. Dual Slice, Deific Weapon, etc.

At early levels, it's getting an extra junction. At mid-levels, it's a few exclusive feats and access to the composite impulses.

But PF2 doesn't exactly go out of its way to reward giving up your versatility. If you want to go with one of the six mono-element instead of the fifteen duals or twenty trios, then that's your call.

Single Gate and Dual Gate are a subclass choice of sorts, but the former can branch out later if the player wants.

[Fabios]

QuidEst wrote:

Mono-element is a deliberate self-imposed restriction and build, rather than being something like a subclass. Like a lot of things in PF2, there are some tools to mitigate a popular build that would normally be flat-out worse. Dual Slice, Deific Weapon, etc.

At early levels, it's getting an extra junction. At mid-levels, it's a few exclusive feats and access to the composite impulses.

But PF2 doesn't exactly go out of its way to reward giving up your versatility. If you want to go with one of the six mono-element instead of the fifteen duals or twenty trios, then that's your call.

Single Gate and Dual Gate are a subclass choice of sorts, but the former can branch out later if the player wants.

And that's a problem. A core fantasy of playing an elemental wizard (yes, kineticists are essentially elemental wizard, no One really cares about Gates and stuff) Is that, as we can see in most media, you're defined by A SINGLE element which often reflects your personality.

Paizo should provide what the customers ask, and "learning to bend metal so i can use One impulse and then never look at metal again" (aka, most kineticists at level 13) It's not what the customers are really asking

[Squiggit]

QuidEst wrote:

Mono-element is a deliberate self-imposed restriction and build

The game certainly doesn't advertise it that way. Nowhere in the book is there any sort of disclaimer that mono element is a trap option by design.

It's also certainly not balanced that way either, because certain mono element builds are perfectly fine and effective, or only run into trouble in very specific level brackets, while other mono element builds run into issues almost immediately either due to lack of impulse variety or poor junctions.

So this just reads like a way to try to diminish people pursuing a completely reasonable class fantasy, in a way that isn't even really grounded in reality.

[Zoken44]

How are mono-element builds "Traps"? Is this the weird notion that a single character build should be able to "do everything" Like... like this isn't supposed to be just one member of a team.

[QuidEst]

Squiggit wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Mono-element is a deliberate self-imposed restriction and build

The game certainly doesn't advertise it that way. Nowhere in the book is there any sort of disclaimer that mono element is a trap option by design.

It's also certainly not balanced that way either, because certain mono element builds are perfectly fine and effective, or only run into trouble in very specific level brackets, while other mono element builds run into issues almost immediately either due to lack of impulse variety or poor junctions.

So this just reads like a way to try to diminish people pursuing a completely reasonable class fantasy, in a way that isn't even really grounded in reality.

Definitely not a trap, any more than dual-wielding is! It's something that is a popular desire, and needed some extra support built in. I was probably too harsh in my tone, so I'll drop it.

[Gaulin]

Zoken44 wrote:

How are mono-element builds "Traps"? Is this the weird notion that a single character build should be able to "do everything" Like... like this isn't supposed to be just one member of a team.

It's not a trap, but in most cases it's not as good. Having access to a second big ol' feat bucket helps to define your playstyle a lot easier.

For instance, if you wanted to try your hand at healing as a kineticist, a single element could make it work with water or wood. But you'd only have a single in combat heal until level six when you get a second. But if you are both a water and wood kineticist, you have 4 healing impulses to choose from at level six (though you can only get all 4 by level 8). Doesnt mean you can't heal as a single element, but if healing is the main thing you want to do dual element is going to have more options.

Feels kind of weird to debate this as kineticist is my favorite class, and the problems with it are small, but here I am. I made peace with theorycrafting an earth/metal/fire kineticist for the character I've always dreamed of that had previously, in my head cannon, been solely earth. But I see metal as basically earth, and fire can be flavored as magma (I barely take fire stuff in my build, really just fiery body and elemental resistance).

[NorrKnekten]

I find Mono-Elements to be perfectly fine.

You pick the typical area dealing effect or save effect and a few tools from your chosen element, By staying in a single element you gain access to mono-element feats and can easily pick up more utility from the non-elemental kineticist feats.

Extended kinesis
Versatile blasts
Weapon infusion
Kinetic Activation
Safe Elements
Counter Element
Elemental overlap.

Its a tradeoff.
more elements = bigger toolbox.
single element = more specialisation.

You dont even need to bother about the composites as you can gain those trough Elemental overlap.

[Fabios]

NorrKnekten wrote:

I find Mono-Elements to be perfectly fine.

You pick the typical area dealing effect or save effect and a few tools from your chosen element, By staying in a single element you gain access to mono-element feats and can easily pick up more utility from the non-elemental kineticist feats.

Extended kinesis
Versatile blasts
Weapon infusion
Kinetic Activation
Safe Elements
Counter Element
Elemental overlap.

Its a tradeoff.
more elements = bigger toolbox.
single element = more specialisation.

You dont even need to bother about the composites as you can gain those trough Elemental overlap.

The problem here Is that this trade off doesn't really exist in practice, since you can "freely" take another element with fork the path and since there are a ton of levels where there's nothing worth to take your choice Is not "versatility or specialisation" but "Better vs worse" in a extremely mono-dimentional way.

IN EVERY CASE forking the path Is Better than taking water's junctions (except the impulse One), in. Every. Single. Case

[Blue_frog]

ottdmk wrote:

Blue_frog wrote:

<Some great analysis work on Mono Wood>

I really enjoyed this, but I feel compelled to point out one flaw in your analysis.

Haha, well spotted, sorry about that, I got carried away ^^

Fabios wrote:

And that's a problem. A core fantasy of playing an elemental wizard (yes, kineticists are essentially elemental wizard, no One really cares about Gates and stuff)

I'm not so sure about that, seeing how many people have fantasies about the last airbender.

[Fabios]

Blue_frog wrote:

[

Haha, well spotted, sorry about that, I got carried away ^^

I'm not so sure about that, seeing how many people have fantasies about the last airbender.

I think it's weird that you mention avatar the last airbender because It kinda shows what i mean.

There's aang, the special One, and then everyone else who's a mono-element! Basically every fan favourite IS a mono element.

This Is a kind of "well but a lot of people like vancian spellcasting". The issue Is with the %of people.

[Perpdepog]

LinnormSurface wrote:

I would really like to see some more impulses, especially utility ones or ones that affect downtime.

I'd really like downtime impulses, though I think I'd rather see them formatted as something like a ritual that a kineticist can learn rather than as a feat they have to take. Format it really similarly, but with few to no secondary casters, and with a kineticist able to use their blast DC for the primary check to gage their success. Downtime options are necessarily pretty limited, and I'm not sure that's worth a class feat, even with the ease of reflowing, but making those abilities into rewards or options kineticists can pick up would help give them something special to differentiate them from casters more.

[QuidEst]

Fabios wrote:

Blue_frog wrote:

[

Haha, well spotted, sorry about that, I got carried away ^^

I'm not so sure about that, seeing how many people have fantasies about the last airbender.

I think it's weird that you mention avatar the last airbender because It kinda shows what i mean.

There's aang, the special One, and then everyone else who's a mono-element! Basically every fan favourite IS a mono element.

This Is a kind of "well but a lot of people like vancian spellcasting". The issue Is with the %of people.

Eh... They're not always mono-element by Kineticist standards, though. Toph is earth/metal, Iroh is fire and either air or metal for lightning, and we encounter water/wood users. Even in mono-element fantasy, bringing in a second element can enhance that fantasy.

I'm personally a lot more used to people coming in with a broader concept. Fire/metal chef or forge worker. Water/wood ended up representing a plant character better than mono-wood for my friend. Things like that are most of what I've encountered, rather than someone going for an earth-but-not-metal mage, or water-but-not-storms mage.

[exequiel759]

I like wood element but the aura junction is IMO kinda bad. Yes, its free temp HP for allies every turn, but for reference the commander (at risk of this getting nerfed or removed on release) has the Plant Banner 1st-level feat that grants half your Intelligence modifier as temp HP to allies within your commander's aura (30-feet emmanation), or your whole Intelligence modifier at 5th level, or your Intelligence modifier + your level at 15th level. As I said, this is likely going to be nerfed on release to something like your Int mod or something like that, but when potentially anyone can take two feats to poach this feat (again, assuming it isn't removed on release) while the aura junction is something only a kineticist can have and is certainly way worse feels bad.

I feel the aura junction should at least be half your level, if not half your level plus the scaling it currently has (1 at 5th, 2 at 10th, 3 at 15th).

[NorrKnekten]

Fabios wrote:

The problem here Is that this trade off doesn't really exist in practice, since you can "freely" take another element with fork the path and since there are a ton of levels where there's nothing worth to take your choice Is not "versatility or specialisation" but "Better vs worse" in a extremely mono-dimentional way.

IN EVERY CASE forking the path Is Better than taking water's junctions (except the impulse One), in. Every. Single. Case

And I disagree with that perspective, Simple as that.

When reaching a gate threshold your options are either new element + feat or new junction + feat. Even with water being what it is you could easily see someone wanting to take the Skill Junction for the +1-3 athletics. Or taking the Aura or Resistances if the campaign call for it.

Regardless of your path you have plenty of valid and worthwhile choices when it comes to feats as a kineticist since almost every level have at least one desirable non-elemental feat. Especially as a mono-element with Counter Element and Elemental overlap which stops working if you later fork the gate.

[Kelseus]

I just want to jump in and say that Tumbling Lumber is not a bad impulse.

It's 2 actions, deals ok damage (2d8+d8/3), but has a large area of effect and doesn't have overflow trait. That means you can do it every round all day long, i.e. the equivalent of a cantrip.

At level 9, electric arc does 6d4 damage (average 15) to two targets. tumbling lumber deals 3d8 (average 13.5) to up to 12 targets. Plus it can push them back or knock them prone. It also removes natural difficult terrain.

Compare to other level 4 impulses:
Blazing Wave: A 30 ft. cone and does 4d6 damage, but it has overflow. Also fire is a common resistance.
Lava Leap: movement that deals 3d6 in a 10 foot emanation, but its a composite, has overflow and puts you next to your targets. Also it gets +1d6/3 levels, worse than Tumbling Lumber.
Lightning Dash: Pretty nice, 2d12 damage +d12/3 is the best damage yet and its a line and is a movement too. still it has the overflow trait.
Rain of Rust: good range 60ft, ok area 10ft burst, 3d6+d6/2 + persistent on a fail and clumsy 1. Downsides? Water Metal composite, overflow and 3 actions.
Whiling Grindstones: 3d6 fire damage, only 30 ft. range and single target but you can sustain it. It's a composite and it's increase +2d6/5!

Compared to the other damaging level 4 impulses, TL is on the lower end of damage, but has the second best area of affect, 4 of the other 5 have overflow and two are composites.

[NorrKnekten]

exequiel759 wrote:

I like wood element but the aura junction is IMO kinda bad. Yes, its free temp HP for allies every turn, but for reference the commander (at risk of this getting nerfed or removed on release) has the Plant Banner 1st-level feat that grants half your Intelligence modifier as temp HP to allies within your commander's aura (30-feet emmanation), or your whole Intelligence modifier at 5th level, or your Intelligence modifier + your level at 15th level. As I said, this is likely going to be nerfed on release to something like your Int mod or something like that, but when potentially anyone can take two feats to poach this feat (again, assuming it isn't removed on release) while the aura junction is something only a kineticist can have and is certainly way worse feels bad.

I feel the aura junction should at least be half your level, if not half your level plus the scaling it currently has (1 at 5th, 2 at 10th, 3 at 15th).

Yeah... I agree it could be higher, but not half-level high.

Probably more akin to 1 at early levels, 3 around 10 and full con-modifier at 15

Mostly because the Commander cannot use certain feats while the banner is planted, needs to spend an action to plant/retrieve it converting it into a 30ft burst, And that the banner when planted is considered an unattended object and can thus be stolen or destroyed making the commander's allies frightened without a save. It's not just a set and forget.

As opposed to Wood Elements Aura Junction that is a passive effect thats basically always on and moves with the Kineticist.

[Easl]

Fabios wrote:

IN EVERY CASE forking the path Is Better than taking water's junctions (except the impulse One), in. Every. Single. Case

I disagree. Fire is a very common damage type, and so resistance to it for yourself or your party in your aura is decent.

Both here and in your opinion on wood I'm sensing a real preference for 'big number' damage effects. (lvl) Temp HP/round, (lvl) resistance, debuffs, persistent damage, some heal+some damage instead of big heal-only or big damage only, you're not interested in any of this. Not big enough. Which is fine, you do you. But IMO they're viable, useful things.

[Squiggit]

Water is not a great example imo, the junctions are pretty decent all around.

Like Metal would have been a better example. Rare damage types on resistance, an aura bonus that just doesn't do anything against a wide variety of enemies, and a damage bonus on crit blast that has some of the worst scaling in the entire game. Mono-metal has some pretty sad junctions unless you can guarantee you're fighting people with metal gear (in which case the aura is actually kind of wild ngl).

I also sort of disagree with the framing a bit. Even with a mediocre junction, junction + impulse is more stuff than just an impulse. Forking the Path is the worse choice unless you can clearly articulate a power increase you're gaining from forking, have no impulses you want from your current element, and/or really get nothing from your junction options.

[Ryangwy]

From the sound of it, mono-elements don't need more impulse variety, they need more junction variety. I think there's room for e.g. meta-impulse junctions.

Squiggit wrote:

The game certainly doesn't advertise it that way. Nowhere in the book is there any sort of disclaimer that mono element is a trap option by design.

It's also certainly not balanced that way either, because certain mono element builds are perfectly fine and effective, or only run into trouble in very specific level brackets, while other mono element builds run into issues almost immediately either due to lack of impulse variety or poor junctions.

I think mono-element isn't a trap at low levels, and at higher levels branching out is incredibly easy, so if you are organically levelling your character up, if you're facing difficulties, you would just naturally Fork. Of course, when building a character straight to a desired level, this becomes more of a trap.

[Castilliano]

I agree it's the Junctions that have most been channeling my choices on my prospective mono-builds, not the Impulses. But the non-Impulse feats can fill those niches (if I haven't picked up an Archetype) until 8th when Elemental Overlap opens up so, so much.

And as noted above, if one goes in with a party role in mind, or I'm finding many, many other concepts, Kineticist can succeed at most. I have builds for an electric (guitar) punk rocker PC w/ piercings and a Pecos Bill PC (folk tale cowboy who tamed a tornado) whom I hadn't realized shared the same elements (Air/Metal) because they share so few Impulses.

And as to an earlier comment about the class being elemental wizards, Kineticists simply aren't. One can lean that direction, but it's inherently a gish class prepackaged for us in a system where gish builds get iffy (especially for those mirroring PF1). So yeah, with the wizard expectation I'd in turn expect disappointment, alongside the (lack of) nova damage spikes. Kineticists are more like superheroes/villains, where even the energy-themed ones need martial prowess (at least until world-class).

[exequiel759]

I honestly was totally on the "metal is kinda bad" bandwagon, but just today I double-checked a ton of its feats and...its not that bad. I won't deny its kinda in-between earth and fire in being a tank and a DPS (being worse than both fire and metal in these areas) and that some impulses have problems and some weird restrictions, but I think you can make a solid single element metal kineticist.

Water, on the other hand, was way worse than I remember it to be. I guess it was mostly because Winter Sleet pre-nerf was completely broken and if paired with Roiling Mudslide it effectively was like like playing chess alone (more so with the water impulse junction and/or the earth critical junction) but there's just not enough there? Like, the element seems to focus on support and healing a bit, but neither of them screams "great" to me. Glacial Prision is kinda busted though.

[Deriven Firelion]

After doing some thinking, I would like some single target impulses. The elemental blast isn't really very good in place of an AOE blast. The AOE blasts are hard to use on single target bosses. The kineticist is lacking in single target impulses to boost single target damage. They have tons of AOE impulses to affect groups. Their main single target attack is the very weak elemental blast.

[PlantThings]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Yeah... I agree it could be higher, but not half-level high.

Probably more akin to 1 at early levels, 3 around 10 and full con-modifier at 15

Mostly because the Commander cannot use certain feats while the banner is planted, needs to spend an action to plant/retrieve it converting it into a 30ft burst, And that the banner when planted is considered an unattended object and can thus be stolen or destroyed making the commander's allies frightened without a save. It's not just a set and forget.

As opposed to Wood Elements Aura Junction that is a passive effect thats basically always on and moves with the Kineticist.

At the very least, the Wood Aura Junction should also scale more neatly at 9th, 13th, and 17th. Those are the Gate's Threshold levels so you'd instantly get the upgraded versions should you get the junction at a later level than 5th.

Besides the poor temp HP scaling, upgrading at 10th then finally at 15th always looked kinda odd to me.

[Easl]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

After doing some thinking, I would like some single target impulses. The elemental blast isn't really very good in place of an AOE blast.

It's not really intended to be. It's a third action/extra attack. Whereas a martial's extra attack does the same damage as any others' but has a penalty to attack, the kin's is the reverse: no penalty on what you roll, but lower damage. But in both cases Paizo is probably aiming for a similar goal, which is that it's not competitive with your main source of damage, it's competitive with non-attack tactical maneuvering.

Think it through: if your third action attack had a much higher expected damage add, then players would feel locked in to using that 3a to attack rather than move or do other things. Doing anything else would be perceived as trap or waste. That third action damage has to be about as valuable as repositioning or demoralizing or what have you, or it has to be resource-limited. Absent either of those things, it's going to undermine the games' tactical play and we just get two groups constantly swinging at each other until the weakest keels over. Tactically boring.

Additionally, it's also probably worst on mono fire, then mono other, and strongest on broad-based kins. So...exactly weakest for players trying to maximize numerical damage. ;) Because really, it functions best as a weakness-dial. EB is a lot friendlier as a 3rd acton choice when you have 4-6 damage types to choose from and oh look! This one EB type I have gets +10 to damage/bypasses 10 resistance.

None of which stops Paizo from doing what you suggest i.e. single-target impulses. But if Paizo does that, I'd bet they'll be 2a.

[Squiggit]

Easl wrote:

It's not really intended to be. It's a third action/extra attack. Whereas a martial's extra attack does the same damage as any others' but has a penalty to attack, the kin's is the reverse: no penalty on what you roll, but lower damage. But in both cases Paizo is probably aiming for a similar goal, which is that it's not competitive with your main source of damage, it's competitive with non-attack tactical maneuvering.

I don't really follow. It's functionally a strike (but worded a way as to be incompatible with most strike support), scales kind of similar to a bad strike (with no martial scaling gimmick), and even has a two action version.

It's also one of your only ways to do dedicated single target damage (there are a couple single target impulses, but not money), which is important in a lot of circumstances.

The problem is it's just kind of undertuned more than anything else.

[Deriven Firelion]

Easl wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

After doing some thinking, I would like some single target impulses. The elemental blast isn't really very good in place of an AOE blast.

It's not really intended to be. It's a third action/extra attack. Whereas a martial's extra attack does the same damage as any others' but has a penalty to attack, the kin's is the reverse: no penalty on what you roll, but lower damage. But in both cases Paizo is probably aiming for a similar goal, which is that it's not competitive with your main source of damage, it's competitive with non-attack tactical maneuvering.

Think it through: if your third action attack had a much higher expected damage add, then players would feel locked in to using that 3a to attack rather than move or do other things. Doing anything else would be perceived as trap or waste. That third action damage has to be about as valuable as repositioning or demoralizing or what have you, or it has to be resource-limited. Absent either of those things, it's going to undermine the games' tactical play and we just get two groups constantly swinging at each other until the weakest keels over. Tactically boring.

Additionally, it's also probably worst on mono fire, then mono other, and strongest on broad-based kins. So...exactly weakest for players trying to maximize numerical damage. ;) Because really, it functions best as a weakness-dial. EB is a lot friendlier as a 3rd acton choice when you have 4-6 damage types to choose from and oh look! This one EB type I have gets +10 to damage/bypasses 10 resistance.

None of which stops Paizo from doing what you suggest i.e. single-target impulses. But if Paizo does that, I'd bet they'll be 2a.

I'm not complaining about the elemental blast damage. It's a little low IMO and could use more enhancement through the gate attenuator but as you stated it's a third action.

I find the Kineticist is too heavily focused on AOE damage with 2 and 3 action impulses and there are a lot of times where AOE damage is overkill or hard to use against targets surrounded by your allies. You shouldn't have to add Safe Elements to every damage impulse to use it with allies in range. You should have some single target heavy hitters like casters have so you're not spending an action tax to use an AOE impulse for single targets.

And while they're at it, make Pacifying Infusion a free action. You can't even use it with your heavy hitting overflow 3 action impulses. Why even take it if you can't use it with your big hit AOE.

It's like they added it to allow you to use AOE impulses in crowded battles, then forgot they made overlow impulses 3 actions which makes it so you can't use Safe Elements with them.

[Fabios]

Kelseus wrote:

I just want to jump in and say that Tumbling Lumber is not a bad impulse.

It's 2 actions, deals ok damage (2d8+d8/3), but has a large area of effect and doesn't have overflow trait. That means you can do it every round all day long, i.e. the equivalent of a cantrip.

At level 9, electric arc does 6d4 damage (average 15) to two targets. tumbling lumber deals 3d8 (average 13.5) to up to 12 targets. Plus it can push them back or knock them prone. It also removes natural difficult terrain.

Compare to other level 4 impulses:
Blazing Wave: A 30 ft. cone and does 4d6 damage, but it has overflow. Also fire is a common resistance.
Lava Leap: movement that deals 3d6 in a 10 foot emanation, but its a composite, has overflow and puts you next to your targets. Also it gets +1d6/3 levels, worse than Tumbling Lumber.
Lightning Dash: Pretty nice, 2d12 damage +d12/3 is the best damage yet and its a line and is a movement too. still it has the overflow trait.
Rain of Rust: good range 60ft, ok area 10ft burst, 3d6+d6/2 + persistent on a fail and clumsy 1. Downsides? Water Metal composite, overflow and 3 actions.
Whiling Grindstones: 3d6 fire damage, only 30 ft. range and single target but you can sustain it. It's a composite and it's increase +2d6/5!

Compared to the other damaging level 4 impulses, TL is on the lower end of damage, but has the second best area of affect, 4 of the other 5 have overflow and two are composites.

i don't really like your comparison Is that most of the impulses you bring up are weak too in my book:

-rain of rust Is absurdly costly with actions and situational top.
-whirling grindstone scales too bad to even be considered worth taking before having the free sustain.
-lightning Dash Is Simply weird AF by a design standpoint.

And the other two are MUCH stronger but you don't consider them in context:
-lava leap Is 4 actions worth of stuff in two: stride that ignores difficult terrain, +2 circumstance AC, decent damage which It's only gonna use to proc the weakness anyway (plus deals bludgeoning damage too, which Is the best physical type in the game). Lava leap Is honestly the best composite impulse
-blazing wave: It does d8s, there's no One in this universe that's not gonna take pure Fire impulses without the impulse junction, It's basically Needed in this case.
Plus It has a much Better area and overall It's the best damage impulse It has.

[Ryangwy]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm not complaining about the elemental blast damage. It's a little low IMO and could use more enhancement through the gate attenuator but as you stated it's a third action.

Basically, you want some higher level two or three action single target impulses similar to e.g. Execute?

I do see the appeal, though given the constantly available nature of impulses I also can see the worry that it'd end up like Starlight Span, where the best thing to do is get in range and just keep blasting. AoEs generally require some amount of movement and rethinking to keep extracting maximum value out of them, at least.

[Deriven Firelion]

Ryangwy wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm not complaining about the elemental blast damage. It's a little low IMO and could use more enhancement through the gate attenuator but as you stated it's a third action.

Basically, you want some higher level two or three action single target impulses similar to e.g. Execute?

I do see the appeal, though given the constantly available nature of impulses I also can see the worry that it'd end up like Starlight Span, where the best thing to do is get in range and just keep blasting. AoEs generally require some amount of movement and rethinking to keep extracting maximum value out of them, at least.

Yep. More tools for different jobs. Even more debuff, attack single target would probably help. You don't want to be dropping solar detonation or ignite the sun on a single target. It seems like overkill and is unwieldy.