Hi all. No experience with the Thaumaturge at all, none of our group have ever played one. So thinking of trying one.
After reading some of the guides and due to the background of the character, it seems like the idea of using a Thaum is viable (the other option being a rogue).
Regalia as the first implement, for Cha skills, mostly intimidation for this char.
Tome as second for the skill monkey part.
Third implement mirror or amulet, but that's far in the future.
As a weapon the slide pistol (capacity, concussion) and using tome intensify for the crits. Any other melee weapon or claw (dragon blood) as backup. Cha/dex.
Some spellcasting (some good reasons by John R) via Ornate tattoo/runescarred or dragon sorcerer MC.
Thoughts, advice, remarks?
Free archetype game, L5/6 onwards.
Thanks
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My first advice would be to be aware of reactive strike - nearly everything you do as a Thaumaturge provokes it.
Using a gun will be really rough for action economy. I tried to make it work for my own Thaumaturge in Alkenstar, but went with a reach melee weapon instead.
With Regalia and Tome you should talk to your DM about switching them, especially as Regalia does not have an active ability and both are dependent on you actively wearing them.
I used marshal as an archetype to equalize my to-hit malus (charisma KAS) and to get reactive strike.
Later on i added psychic and the amped warped step was really helpful to bridge distances.
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Grabbing gunslinger archetype for risky reload is a good idea, especially with the tome intensify effect. Since your build isn't using a weapon implement, you can also invest in Gunner's bandoliers. You can grab their slingers reload at level 10 too. Choose pistolero. Great with your regalia bonuses.
As noted, Regalia and Tome work poorly as you have to hold them in your non weapon hand to work, and they don't inherently have any actions that you can use to free action swap between them. If your GM counts using Intensify Vulnerability as a permissible action to swap then that's something, but it's still not very good given the timing of when you invoke and benefit from the passive benefits of each item. And even then Intensify Vulnerability is level 9(?) and your second implement is level 5. That's a long time to suffer.
My first advice would be to be aware of reactive strike - nearly everything you do as a Thaumaturge provokes it.
Using a gun will be really rough for action economy. I tried to make it work for my own Thaumaturge in Alkenstar, but went with a reach melee weapon instead.
With Regalia and Tome you should talk to your DM about switching them, especially as Regalia does not have an active ability and both are dependent on you actively wearing them.
A workaround the many thaumaturges does is to use thrown weapons. Many thaumas does this.
As everyone else has alluded to: Thaumaturge has both action economy challenges but also hands challenges. Your hands are very valuable resources. A firearm weapon is challenging on both of these fronts:
- Slide Pistol doesn't avoid the actions to change chambers, though you don't need a free hand to reload... unless the fight goes long enough that you run out of capacity. But it's effectively two actions to attack, and if you have to Exploit a new target, that's your entire turn. Reach or thrown weapons can avoid this and that really frees up your turn.
- Since you only have 1 hand for implements (the other is holding a firearm) you can't have them both out at the same time. Usually you switch as part of activating an action on the one you're switching to (ie: you can switch to Amulet as part of activating it). Regalia and Tome don't have an activation action, so you have to spend actions to swap them unless your GM lets you do it with Intensify Vulnerability. That makes them hard to mix together.
It's a good class, but it's a hard one to use a firearm effectively.
Thanks all.
Sounds as if the guns might be a bit difficult to use. But the action compressions sound interesting if I'd like to try anyways. Risky reload to go all or nothing. Running reload and pistolero reload for the combination with intimidation. The bandoleer would also help to have a few dueling pistols handy in case the risky reload fails.
Not much synergy between regalia and tome. Can implements be retrained? And then start with a reaction implement and either regalia or tome.
Why would the intensify action not count as an action where you could change implement? Why is that something that would be a discussion point?
While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action.
It sounds pretty straightforward.
Exemplar dedication with the shadow sheath ikon sounds like a good way to use thrown weapons, if guns don't work out.
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Yes, you can switch to tome to use its intensify, but you cannot have both the passive regalia bonus (aura, skill bonus) and the passive tome bonus (+rk, free rk).
And if you want to use an active effect, e.g. amulet, you lose your passive effect of the other implement, e.g. regalia.
Unless you can talk your GM into it - handling multiple implements is quite a mess rules-wise. We just allowed it on our table, but it is not RAW.
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Glad you found my guide useful!
I agree with a lot of the other comments here. I think your individual choices aren't bad but you're going to need to make some concessions or build a particular way to make it work.
Tome and regalia together isn't necessarily bad but you will need to not have access to half of the tome's abilities unless you want to spend an action to swap. This really will only be an issue from levels 5-8 though. Once you get Intensify Invulnerability... well the regalia's effect is crap compared to the tome's so it's not a perfect fix but it's an improvement.
Next is the issue with the gun. Powers128 is exactly right. I think you NEED Risky Reload to facilitate your build.
It's fine that you want to add a spellcasting dedication as well but since they don't start scaling well until mid/late levels, it should be perfectly fine to start out gunslinger, nab your 3 feats, then go into spellcasting.
It's not an optimal build (and it doesn't need to be) but it should be perfectly functional as long as you don't allow your build to obliterate your action economy, which taking the build path I suggest should help fix.
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Why would the intensify action not count as an action where you could change implement? Why is that something that would be a discussion point?
While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action.
It sounds pretty straightforward.
Emphasis mine. Implements Empowerment is not an action from the implement (it's from the class). That's why its something you'll need to verify with your GM.
Exemplar dedication with the shadow sheath ikon sounds like a good way to use thrown weapons, if guns don't work out.
That dedication is Rare, so remember to ask your GM first.
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Emphasis mine. Implements Empowerment is not an action from the implement (it's from the class). That's why its something you'll need to verify with your GM.
I think you're mixing up Implements Empowerment with Intensify Vulnerability. The argument is relatively the same though. However, since each implement has its own Intensify Vulnerability effect, the action is arguably attached to the implement and not the class itself.
Emphasis mine. Implements Empowerment is not an action from the implement (it's from the class). That's why its something you'll need to verify with your GM.I think you're mixing up Implements Empowerment with Intensify Vulnerability. The argument is relatively the same though. However, since each implement has its own Intensify Vulnerability effect, the action is arguably attached to the implement and not the class itself.
I was just reading the texts and came to the same conclusion. Your specifically asking for an effect linked tot the implement.
I have already done some changes in pathbuilder, and gunslinger is the first archetype indeed. Risky reload and quick draw are the first feats taken, to be able to quickly switch weapons (playing with partial abp, weapons and armor). Running reload to follow. Action compressions seems to be key if this is to work.
With the ornate tattoo line ancestry feats and runescarred archetype there are quickly some spell options available.
Sounds like it's doable. Lots of risky reloads... ;-)
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You really need to think about your reactions, because that's a semi-reliable 4th action. Your best choices are:
- weapon implement/implement's interuption (5th level): very good, but only against your Exploit Vulnerability target
- fighter archetype/reactive strike (4th level): decide whether this is worth 3 feats
- marshal archetype/reactive strike (8th level): this archetype complements the regalia, but delays your reaction until 8th level
- champion archetype/champion's reaction (6th level): you have your choice of Causes, and hence reactions, and you can take Lay on Hands at 4th. And lay on hands gets you a focus point.
I suggest you go with something like:
Free Archetype: Champion
Normal Archetype: MarshalThat gets you two reactions by 8th level, which should be enough to increase your effective actions/round to nearly 4.
They might as well make a completely different build at that point.
Not my favorite reaction, but it does work when you have a weapon loaded indeed.
It looks as if a thrower is a lot easier to build and play, a lot less feats needed to build. Throwers bandoleer and QuickDraw (or similar) would be needed, or like mentioned earlier, the exemplar with the shadow sheath. Quick draw is easy to get with a rogue archetype which is useful anyway. Tamral chakram with unconventional weaponry seems like a very good weapon.
Any thoughts for a thrower build next to the above?
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Not my favorite reaction, but it does work when you have a weapon loaded indeed.
It looks as if a thrower is a lot easier to build and play, a lot less feats needed to build. Throwers bandoleer and QuickDraw (or similar) would be needed, or like mentioned earlier, the exemplar with the shadow sheath. Quick draw is easy to get with a rogue archetype which is useful anyway. Tamral chakram with unconventional weaponry seems like a very good weapon.
Any thoughts for a thrower build next to the above?
I was honestly kinda liking the idea of the gunslinger thaumaturge you were going with (that's OK, I'll steal it for myself :P). A final comment on that one though: one other really good reaction I saw for this particular build was Instant Backup. It isn't particularly proactive but it's got you covered if you ever misfire.
Lol. Do your thang!
Instant backup seems to serve the same purpose as quick draw, advantage that it's a reaction, but less used as a QuickDraw would be. Not sure if both are worth the feat, one should serve.
A suggestion for your excellent guide would be to pen down some ideas for builds (not too detailed). Like some suggested approaches to character ideas you yourself like.
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Instant backup seems to serve the same purpose as quick draw, advantage that it's a reaction, but less used as a QuickDraw would be. Not sure if both are worth the feat, one should serve.
I would think Quick Draw is for when you misfire, so Instant Backup, being slightly more action efficient, would just replace Quick Draw once it becomes available. I may be wrong in my thinking though.
A suggestion for your excellent guide would be to pen down some ideas for builds (not too detailed). Like some suggested approaches to character ideas you yourself like.
I've contemplated it plenty. I'm just not sure how to format the builds to keep them short yet thorough and consistent and whether or not to apply free archetype for the builds. Of all the classes, this is the one to have the most build possibilities I think.
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Quick draw:
Misfire, drop weapon, draw, strike (one action). Quick draw also works at the start of combat or if for some reason you have to draw another weapon. But you strike as part of the action, which might not always be useful.
Instant backup:
Misfire, instant backup, strike ( one action and a reaction). Advantage is that you can have a loaded weapon in hand after instant backup. The strike is not mandatory as with quick draw.
Somewhat different use cases.
As for builds: keep it short. My thoughts at least. No need to over everything in detail. As an example the gunslinger build in this topic.
Title: thaumaturge gun critfisher.
Explanation: <reading your doc that shouldn't be a problem>
Stats array L10
Suggested Feats Thaum: ammunition, scroll, diverse lore, ....
Suggested archetype (gunslinger, pistolero)
Suggested archetype feats; risky reload, quick draw, running reload, pistolero reload.
Suggested skill feats:....
Keep high level out of it unless it is very specific for this build, but I find that once you start playing, the game always catches up with you anyway and takes the character along.
Emphasis mine. Implements Empowerment is not an action from the implement (it's from the class). That's why its something you'll need to verify with your GM.I think you're mixing up Implements Empowerment with Intensify Vulnerability. The argument is relatively the same though. However, since each implement has its own Intensify Vulnerability effect, the action is arguably attached to the implement and not the class itself.
Yes, I was. :)
IMO, I dont think guns are worth it. They are too action intensive on a class that desperately needs action compression.
Hence my doubt and question on the thrower build. But on the other hand, it would be nice to make it work. Risky reload and quick draw can do a lot to have just a 1 action strike. Takes 4 feats to make it work (gunslinger, risk, quick, ammunition) compared to the thrower build, which needs the bandoleer and quick draw (+ an archetype, but rogue is kinda to strong not to take on the Thaum if you ask me.
fatal is stronger than deadly, for most levels. Tamral chakram is both thrown and melee, which is another advantage if you're willing to use unconventional weaponry.
Of particular note is the Triggerband Salvo at level 12 with gunslinger dedication, that you either way want if you are planning on using guns, which is amazing for getting 2 attacks for 1 action, with some added circumstance bonuses to attack.Plus, it's hella cool imagery ^^
Cool combo indeed. But....
1) it's a flourish, which doesn't work well with risky reload, which is kinda the main way to get the gun working. In turns where you reload in a "normal" way it could help (but yet another feat).
2) range of combi weapons is 30 feet max and damage is lower.
It does give some nice option with the tome intensify with the extra +1 circumstance on top of the +1 for RK you can get if you hit.
So multiple valid options. Gun could well work in FA die the amount of feats needed to make it work.
Ranged using thrown weapons would also work (less investment in feats, but not fatal critfishing).
The char is meant as a intimidate DPS build. The other option, as mentioned in OP, is rogue. Any idea how the Thaum would compare to the Rogue thief, damage wise?
More background: we're switching from Dual class back to single class, due to new players and too many options. Char was a thief/sorcerer(dragon). Back to thief would be the easiest switch, but the Thaum has a more magicky feeling.
Can't find an answer to the following: when using a passive implement and you switch to an active one, like the amulet for a reaction, how do you switch back to the passive one?
I see you can switch as a free action to use any any action from an active amulet, as explained when you gain the second implement. But as far as I van read, that is a one way switch, meaning your stuck with the active implement.
So if I want to use the passive effect again (regalia, for the demoralize bonus) you actually need to spend an extra action to switch?
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Can't find an answer to the following: when using a passive implement and you switch to an active one, like the amulet for a reaction, how do you switch back to the passive one?
I see you can switch as a free action to use any any action from an active amulet, as explained when you gain the second implement. But as far as I van read, that is a one way switch, meaning your stuck with the active implement.
So if I want to use the passive effect again (regalia, for the demoralize bonus) you actually need to spend an extra action to switch?
Yes, unless intensify vulnerability is ruled as a valid implement action. I believe it is. I think that's the majority opinion but some believe is isn't which is also understandable.
Yes, I agree with John. And to briefly recap why this isn't clear and you can rule either way:
While you’re holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you’re wearing to use an action from the implement you’re switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement’s action
Passive implements (tome, regalia, the, uh, other one) don't have their own inherent action.
You gain the intensify vulnerability benefit of all of your implements, as well as the following action.
This is a class ability action, technically, not an implement action -- it simply resolves the particular effects based on the specific implement in use.
But you can also choose to read it as granting the intensify vulnerability action to each implement, and then those implements now (at level 9!) have an action to free action swap. It still doesn't fix the level 5-8 issue when you have two implements.
Another permissive reading regarding 2 of the 3 passive implements, Lantern and Tome, is that while they are generally passive, they do grant a free action each.
You can lit or unlit the lantern once each round as a free action, and you get a free recall with the tome.
So a permissive reading could be that those free actions, which are granted by the implements, count for switching hands.
I actually thought that would be the case. Not sure why you would consider it permissive, as it is exactly what the text for the second implement mentions.
While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action. This allows you to meet requirements of having an implement in hand to use its action
Actions are free actions, reactions and actions. Both the text for the free action of Tome and the reaction of amulet are similar (while holding the implement). Same for the mirror action after a quick check. The only thing paizo omitted was to use the action layout, but text-wise I see no reason for it not to be similar.