sometimes this means being pretty useless in combat, unless you want to risk your life giving someone a flanking partner.
I think this has way too much chance of that becoming a dead flanking partner.
Missile weapons or cantrips, which tend not to do a lot but you can do it as often as you like.
Then there are items like a wand of fireballs, but again they tend to show up at higher levels.
If none of this appeals, you can play a witch, which always has a powerful alternative to spells in hexes, many of which can be used once a day on each target.
The first thing an arcane caster or any caster should be doing is being selective when they cast their spells. Spells are the big guns of the game and do not need to be used in every encounter. If the other members of the party can handle the situation without difficulty let them. This may seem as if the cater is not pulling his weight but that is not the case. Spells are usually the big guns of the game and do not need to be used in every encounter. There are also situations where the martials are useless or extremely ineffective, but the spell caster can deal with the situation. For example, against a swarm or incorporeal creature the martials are usually a disadvantage. Using your burning hands to kill the goblins and not having it when you encounter the swarm of rats does not help the party survive.
The second thing an arcane caster should be doing is using magic items to increase their combat capabilities. Things like wands, staves and scrolls is something all arcane casters should be using. Having a wand of magic missile allows an arcane caster to still participate in a combat without having to cast any of his spells. At higher level staves not only allow extra spells to be cast but can expand what spells the caster has access to. In addition to wands, staves and scrolls casters have other magic items that can be useful. Pearls of Power allow a prepared caster to recast a spell they have already cast. Rings of wizardry can increase the number of spells per day the caster can cast.
Scrolls good for utility and situational spells. If the caster level of the spell is not important or the minimum caster level is sufficient, they are perfect for a scroll. This allows the caster to memorize more combat spells but still have access to other needed spells. Wizard get scribe scroll for free so can create their own scrolls at half cost.
At low level cantrips can do a small amount of damage and even at higher level they might occasionally be useful. If one of the party members brings a target down to 1-2 HP a damaging cantrip can often finish them off without having to use a spell.
Arcane casters can also use weapons to fight. Usually, a ranged weapon is preferable. Sorcerers are proficient with simple weapons so can use a crossbow. Elven wizards get proficiency with bows and usually have a good DEX. At 1st level an elf wizard might be better with the bow than the fighter with a low DEX. Arcane spell casters usually want a good DEX, and elves get a bonus to DEX.
Using cantrips and weapons allows the caster to play cleanup for targets that are almost dead. Remember a monster with 1 HP can still do full damage.
Scrolls good for utility and situational spells. If the caster level of the spell is not important or the minimum caster level is sufficient, they are perfect for a scroll. This allows the caster to memorize more combat spells but still have access to other needed spells.
Lots of good sense from Mysterious Stranger. I have something to add to the quoted passage.
Spontaneous casters have it even better with the use of scrolls if they have one of my favourite magic items, Mnemonic Vestments. Once a day thay can use the niche spell from the scroll... and not expend the scroll.
Ranged attacks are often a good idea. Note that you can have a "full arcane caster" that is decent to very good at both ranged attacks and spells: [cavalier or fighter or ranger]* 1/wizard (archetype and/or school of choice, although some may not work as well as others) 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 ends up with BAB +17 and 9th-level spells at 20th level. Being at least a decent archer lets you conserve spells for longer adventuring days, especially at lower levels (when you have few spell slots), since you don't have to cast every round to "be useful." Also, spells (plus Enhance Arrows and Imbue Arrow) make the character an even better archer.
*- cavalier (emissary) for Mounted Combat (if you want to use Mounted Archery with phantom steed at higher levels), fighter for the bonus feat, or ranger to use wands of cure light wounds and/or wands of barkskin without Use Magic Device checks
I will add that any ranged attacker, regardless of whether they're using bows or ray spells or kinetic blasts, needs Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot to be effective in most fights. Most offensive cantrips require a ranged attack roll, and there are a subset of spells at every level that require them, too. Most of these spells target touch AC, but that advantage is greatly reduced if you're constantly taking a -4 to attack because your target is in melee.
I've seen caster and kineticist characters who were entirely useless in combat because the player chose mostly spells or blasts that required ranged attacks, but forgot these two basic feats. And when you're a half-BAB arcane caster, you're already behind the curve on attack bonus.
Finally, note that neither feat has a BAB prerequisite, so they can be taken as early as 1st and 3rd level (or both at 1st for a human).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another thing to consider is what spells you are casting in combat. Blasting may be fun but there are often more effective spell that can be cast. There are also lots of spells that can be used more than once. Flaming Sphere lasts 1 round per level so single casting will last for the entire combat.
Summoning spells can summon multiple creatures that also last longer than a single turn.
Battle field control and buffing is also useful. Casting haste on a party of martial focused characters and pets will often do more damage than a fireball.
|
A dagger or some other melee weapon is good. Being grappled is bad for a spellcaster, being swallowed whole is even worse.
An AoO against an opponent that lacks Improved Grapple or Grab can reduce the risk of being grappled.
Firing Rays and missile weapons toward an enemy in melee who has cover from your allies gives a -8 to hit.
That can be reduced to -4 by moving to a position where your allies don't give cover or concealment to the enemy (but then, generally, you don't have cover or concealment from the enemy), but, if you can afford the feat expenditure, Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot aren't bad investments and remove the penalty for firing in melee while giving you a +1 to hit and damage if you are withing 30'.
A wand of Scorching Ray with a CL of 3, at 4,500 gp, is a good investment. There are plenty of creatures with fire resistance, but you generally meet them at a level where you have more resources.
Ranged attacks are often a good idea. Note that you can have a "full arcane caster" that is decent to very good at both ranged attacks and spells: [cavalier or fighter or ranger]* 1/wizard (archetype and/or school of choice, although some may not work as well as others) 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 ends up with BAB +17 and 9th-level spells at 20th level.
For those that dislike casting from prepared slots, there is a similar character route that requires using ganzi (Weaponplay oddity) instead of a dip in another class to gain proficiency in all martial weapons: [arcanist* or sorcerer] 6/eldritch knight 3/arcane archer 4/eldritch knight +7 also ends up with BAB +17 and 9th-level spells at 20th level.
*- probably blood arcanist or school savant, although brown-fur transmuter could also work for some switch-hitting later on
All characters should have both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon of some sort. What the weapon are is going to depend on your class and race. All classes except druids, monks, shifters, and wizards are proficient with simple weapons. Druids, monks, and shifters have unique proficiencies that cover their needs or have class abilities that make weapons less important. Many of the core races also have additional weapons they are proficient in. Elven wizards actually get proficiency in several good weapons. So, only non-elven wizards have any real problem finding a decent weapon.
Having the arcane caster carrying a weapon can be a good idea even if they never use it. By carrying a good weapon, it makes it less obvious they are an arcane caster. Targeting spell casters especially arcane caster is a good strategy. The elf wizard with the rapier at his waste and long bow on his back could easily be a swashbuckler or other DEX based martial. The human sorcerer carrying the spear might be mistaken for a monk. If the character is not wearing anything obviously magical or of high quality, they could even be taken as a NPC class that is too poor to afford armor.
Just adding my two cents into the discussion.
What do I do when I run out of spell slots when playing a full caster? I don't run out of spell slots (typically) because I've built my character to be able to do something else during combat instead of just throwing spells. So, if (heavy on if) I run out of spells, I am still helpful. How I go about doing that varies from character to character.
For instance, every spellcaster benefits from Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. So, for the first three levels (until fireball becomes an option, or similar spells), you are not that much worse off than anyone else using a ranged weapon (provided you didn't skip out on Dex-day at the gym). There are other options if you want to stick to cantrips instead, but that's usually not effective beyond level 2.
As far as spell selection goes, I hardly ever give much thought to damage inflicting spells until I have more than a small handful of spell slots. Maybe I'll prepare one or two of them, especially if I have the option to spontaneously convert them (like a cleric into a healing spell, a druid for summoning, etc). My spell slots are better suited for benefitting my combat prowess or the abilities of my allies. Or boosting my defense and their defenses.
Once reaching level four and above, I start leaning into my spellcasting more often. By this point, we are a full two BAB behind the fighters and require buffs to keep up with their 'to hit' bonuses. It is far more effective to buff them than ourselves for attacking, and we can focus more on controlling the battlefield. We should still keep our ranged weapons nearby but by this point, we likely have enough disposable gold to start picking up wands and other consumable items, and should start focusing on making our spells harder to resist.
Once I reach level seven or eight, I have nearly completely switched into a utility and blaster role. Combat starts and I'm dropping a short lived, party wide buff (like haste) to go along with the longer lasting buffs that I've already cast. At this point, I am making it harder for the enemy to get around being an overall nuisance so that the enemies try to get at me (provoking and getting messed up by the fighters), or picking off any enemies that have been severely weakened by a full attack action from the archer (our REAL damage dealer) or one that appears to be getting the upper hand on any ally, so I debuff them.
At level 11, the gears generally shift once more, and I have longer lasting buff spells and my party has means to buff themselves in short bursts that I can try to level the field with a large blast before things get too chaotic. After that point, we have more than enough spells to generally last a typical adventuring day (four or more encounters) so advice isn't really needed for this level of gameplay.
To summarize, I specialize in a versatile role, providing utility and support rather than damage. My role in a party is sort of like grease and oil in a well tuned machine. The machine is already capable of dealing great amounts of death. I just make sure its operating at peak performance, and prevent it from grinding against itself while it does. And I always, ALWAYS, design my characters so that when (not if) they ever get caught on the front line, the monster immediately regrets it. Whether that is from having poisonous blood, a held charge from a touch spell ready to detonate when I'm struck, or something else... It will cost the enemy much more than I lose when we come into contact.
And I always, ALWAYS, design my characters so that when (not if) they ever get caught on the front line, the monster immediately regrets it. Whether that is from having poisonous blood, a held charge from a touch spell ready to detonate when I'm struck, or something else... It will cost the enemy much more than I lose when we come into contact.
I really like this in principle. But I haven't figured out how to do it efficiently.
Poisonous blood works OK, but other ideas seems to use up resources for something that will not do anything if things go to plan.
I would like to also point out how helpful backup weapons are. Have a kunai and a dagger for melee, then a sling for ranged. Will you be a great martial combatant as full arcane caster? No. Will those weapons be handy when you're out of spells and the enemy has managed to get up to you? Yes.
For a small AC boost when mage armor isn't active/feasible, a haramaki has no ACP or ASF for just 3 gp. At higher levels, it's also more cost effective than bracers of armor for the same (total) bonus and can have more armor qualities (up to +10 and can include qualities for light armor, those with a flat gp value, etc.); granted, total AC for a haramaki only goes to +6 instead of +8.
I really like this in principle. But I haven't figured out how to do it efficiently.
Poisonous blood works OK, but other ideas seems to use up resources for something that will not do anything if things go to plan.
You are always going to be using resources for plans that usually don't happen, but you'll be thankful you did if it ever happens. My playstyle makes it more than likely that the enemy will attempt to go after me more than usual, so I get more mileage out of preventative measures than others might. Ive also gotten into the habit of convincing my allies to take the Bonded Mind feat with me, so that I can also take Share Spells, in order to give them some of the more delicious and devious personal only spells I have access to.
Sipping Jacket is highly useful, especially if you've got a source of daily (ie, free) potions or alchemist extracts with the infusion discovery. If you don't, well, make them yourself to save money. Something as simple as Displacement goes a long way.
Once you get options for Permanency, Toxic Blood is pretty cool.
You are always going to be using resources for plans that usually don't happen, but you'll be thankful you did if it ever happens. My playstyle makes it more than likely that the enemy will attempt to go after me more than usual, so I get more mileage out of preventative measures than others might.I really like this in principle. But I haven't figured out how to do it efficiently.
Poisonous blood works OK, but other ideas seems to use up resources for something that will not do anything if things go to plan.
Play styles seem to be why the experiences differ.
My play style when playing a full arcane caster is to avoid melee combat like the plague absolutely all the time. what measures I take concerning melee are just to be able to survive it when I wind up there anyway, at least until I can get away from it again.
Also just in Pathfinder 1 generally I aim for my character to be very good at what they are best at. Then I want to be good at some things to be well rounded. But you can't get close to be good at everything and PF1 rewards specializing. So I just accept that there are a whole lot of things I am poor at.
Accordingly I don't try to get any good at using weapons when playing a full arcane caster. A lot of people have posted here who do try to get decent with weapons. I know why they do it and am not saying it is mistaken. But I prefer to structure my character figuring there is more value in just using feats etc. to improve my character elsewhere.
Also just in Pathfinder 1 generally I aim for my character to be very good at what they are best at. Then I want to be good at some things to be well rounded. But you can't get close to be good at everything and PF1 rewards specializing. So I just accept that there are a whole lot of things I am poor at.
Accordingly I don't try to get any good at using weapons when playing a full arcane caster. A lot of people have posted here who do try to get decent with weapons. I know why they do it and am not saying it is mistaken. But I prefer to structure my character figuring there is more value in just using feats etc. to improve my character elsewhere.
There comes a time where you get a feel for the 'ceiling' of the game in Pathfinder 1e and, unless you are playing in a fairly highly OP game, there is little need to reach or push past that particular ceiling. At this point, I generally have an intuitive understanding of just how powerful (or specialized) I need to be before I start branching out and picking up secondary and tertiary specializations.
For example, if you are playing a sorcerer and you've gotten +2 to every damage dice with your spells... You've pushed beyond that ceiling a bit and can start investing elsewhere. Honestly, the +1 alone is enough. If you've got high enough DCs on your spells that 80% of the creatures you face at your level will fail them more often than not, its time to look elsewhere. If you are an archer and can melt an enemy with a single full attack action (and it isn't a 'minion'), same deal.
You are correct that it is a matter of play style. These things pretty much always come down to differences in playstyle, both player and GM alike.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've played a couple of arcanists and it can be painful for the first three levels as you desperately hoard your precious spell slots. Wizards and sorcerers aren't much better (though a lot of them will have a school or bloodline power usable 3 + casting stat times a day). Here's what I do once I run out:
-Get a wand of magic missile ASAP.
-Flank while fighting defensively. (If I'm at least 2nd level. 1st level is almost guaranteed unconscious if hit.)
-That attack while fighting defensively? Might as well make it an Aid Another attempt.
-Did the bad guy hit you? Don't let that happen again! Withdraw and start using acid splash.
Honestly once you get the magic missile wand that's almost always your best choice of action.
Everything that everyone else said about wands (and, later, staves).
I wouldn't recommend you strap weapons on your 1st-3rd level wizard, though. Hire hirelings, instead. A mercenary warrior costs 3 silver pieces a day. He comes equipped with studded leather armor and a club, shortsword, or shortspear. Order 2-3 of them into combat whether you have spells left or not. Take their silver pieces off their corpses if they die.
By 4th-5th level, consider Monster Summoning spells for emergency fodder (unless your GM is a fan of the NPC Codex, in which case hiring increasingly better bodyguards may be viable). As with the hirelings, it's not a matter of summoned creatures being as good as your best offensive spell for that level. It's a matter of them being a better alternative to getting into melee or ranged combat if your spell economy fails or crafting wands gets too expensive.
Although there’s no guarantee that your hirelings will be brave enough to actually fight for you.
|
|
Although there’s no guarantee that your hirelings will be brave enough to actually fight for you.
If I were the GM, no hireling would risk his life for 3 SP/day. It is roughly equivalent to $ 15.
The mercenary would find as long as there is little risk and a chance for loot, but will fight defensively and retreat if faced by some serious risk, leaving the spellcaster to deal with the opponent.That kind of person is the guy you hire to do a bodyguard job in a city, not the guy who goes with you to a dungeon.
|
Pets on the other hand only require handle animal and some action economy. The PFS rules I think are cheesy based on how powerful a pet you can simply buy and train (what level for an actual tiger or bear?), but if your GM is cool with it and the party doesn't mind, you can spend your actions when out of spells directing your pet around a fight.
Obviously every GM will work with their players to determine what works best for their table, but between the Core Rulebook and the GameMastery Guide it's pretty clear that:
1. Yes, hirelings will fight for you
2. The prices listed in the Core Rulebook represent a minimum cost
3. Hirelings of higher level are available (with stats even provided)
4. As the experience of the hirelings increases, considerations like treasure shares have to negotiated
It's ultimately the GM's responsibility to flesh out the hirelings and determine what they would and wouldn't do on the basis of things like experience, intelligence, desperation, a desire to prove themselves, their relationship with the place the PCs are going to or the creatures they expect to find, and so on. And ultimately, the GM will determine just how much of this is appropriate for their game, and whether they're comfortable adjusting encounter levels, challenge ratings, etc., to accommodate the wizard's bodyguards.
Good thing BAB has little differential at those low levels so crossbow is pretty effective vs standard CR. You still have acid splash and such.
Median AC for CR 1 and 2 creatures is 14 and 15, respectively. Median touch AC for those same creatures is 12. Using a crossbow also commits your move action for the round, for reloading. Acid splash might only do half the damage on average, but you have better odds of hitting and maintain mobility.
By 4th-5th level, consider Monster Summoning spells for emergency fodder
Monster Summoning is a brilliant flexible strategy.
Every HP lost by a summoned creature is a HP not lost by the party.
It allows you to keep enemies in combat, restricting their options. You can summon creatures behind your opponents or into places where there arcane casters are thrust all unwilling into melee.
Summoned creatures can be selected to deal with particular problems. they can cast spells or SLAs for you.
Sadly, you need to build around it and it takes a fair few levels to become really effective. Which means it is not much of a solution at lower levels where running out of spells is at it's worst.
A mercenary warrior costs 3 silver pieces a day. He comes equipped with studded leather armor and a club, shortsword, or shortspear. Order 2-3 of them into combat whether you have spells left or not. Take their silver pieces off their corpses if they die.
"Mercenaries are useless, disunited, unfaithful
They have nothing more to keep them in a battleOther than a meager wage
Which is just about enough to make them wanna kill for you
But not enough to make them wanna die for you"
John Cale
Especially if you treat them like that.
NPCs are not robots that will do anything you tell them. If treated as suggested they will normally display as much loyalty to you as you do for them. They are probably more likely to defect to the other side during combat, something real world mercenaries were notorious for, and loot your body after helping to kill you than die for you. Hell, I would.
A mercenary warrior costs 3 silver pieces a day. He comes equipped with studded leather armor and a club, shortsword, or shortspear. Order 2-3 of them into combat whether you have spells left or not. Take their silver pieces off their corpses if they die.
"Mercenaries are useless, disunited, unfaithful
They have nothing more to keep them in a battle
Other than a meager wage
Which is just about enough to make them wanna kill for you
But not enough to make them wanna die for you"John Cale
Cribbed from an earlier source:
“Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy.”
Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
NPCs are not robots that will do anything you tell them. If treated as suggested they will normally display as much loyalty to you as you do for them.
I completely agree, and I hope it's understood I was being a bit blasé in my initial post.
They are probably more likely to defect to the other side during combat, something real world mercenaries were notorious for, and loot your body after helping to kill you than die for you. Hell, I would.
“Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy.”
Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
Both very true statements, but both also far more apropos to a different context. Of course the GM should take mercenary tendencies into account when a PC seeks to hire, well, mercenaries, but at the same time it would only be fair to reward a measured, nuanced approach to the matter.
Which is to say that while Renaissance-era Italian potentates had good reason to fear condottieri whose professional, well-trained and equipped armies often rivaled or exceeded those of the states they supported in the field, a party of adventurers probably has less to worry about from one or two sell-swords of less experience. Provided, of course, that they are paid appropriately for the setting in question and the wizard they are hired to support in combat doesn't treat them poorly.
NPCs are not robots that will do anything you tell them. If treated as suggested they will normally display as much loyalty to you as you do for them.I completely agree, and I hope it's understood I was being a bit blasé in my initial post.
Fair enough.
It is reasonably common for GMs to allow PCs to treat hirelings as cannon fodder.“Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy.”
Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
John Cale was alluding to Machiavelli I believe.
It is worth googling the song and giving it a listen. I think it is tremendous.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Respectfully, I don't think anyone is trying to get anywhere (in terms of winning a debate).
The OP asked for alternatives when a spellcaster's spells run out. I presented NPC hirelings as an alternative. There are other posters who feel that's not right for their tables (an entirely valid position), or who feel that mercenary hirelings may not be reliable or may not be willing to be used as fodder (also very valid positions). I don't think we're debating so much as exchanging ideas, but regardless I don't think they're any more off-topic than discussing the economy of wands as a substitute to spellcasting or the probability of a wizard hitting anything with a crossbow at a given level. Hirelings are simply a more unusual solution.
|
|
Here's another quote, this one from that classic text on kingdoms "Ultimate Campaign." (Page 140, under Controlling Companions)
Some companions are exceptions, such as an intelligent companion who doesn’t bear exceptional loyalty toward you (for example, a hired guard), a weaker minion who is loyal to you but lacks the abilities or resources to assist in adventuring tasks, and a called outsider (such as from planar ally) who agrees to a specific service but still has a sense of self-preservation. You can use Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate to influence such companions, but the GM is the final arbiter of their actions. For example, a PC might use threats to convince a caravan guard to hold back an ogre for a few rounds or to prevent her zealous followers from attacking a rival adventurer, but the GM makes the decision whether the guard runs away after getting hit once or the followers attack when provoked.
Surprising no one, the final answer is "it's up to the GM."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm currently playing a low level Arcanist in a Reign of Winter game, so I can definitely empathize with the OP.
However, I haven't really felt useless when out of spells and I think it comes down to the basic principle I employ when playing as an arcane caster, which is to cast spells that will best help my party over the challenge.
Firstly, not every low level encounter needs you to cast a spell. Why waste a spell if the party are easily beating the encounter and taking minimal damage? So conserve those spells so that they are available to make hard encounters easier.
Secondly, have some ranged options. Cantrips such as Acid Splash are great (it also stops troll regeneration) and a light crossbow as back up. Don't forget alchemical items, especially if you've picked up some as loot. A well aimed tanglefoot bag can help your melee crew, and it can even bring down flying creatures.
Hang in there, it gets better!
I'm currently playing a low level Arcanist in a Reign of Winter game, so I can definitely empathize with the OP.
However, I haven't really felt useless when out of spells and I think it comes down to the basic principle I employ when playing as an arcane caster, which is to cast spells that will best help my party over the challenge.
Firstly, not every low level encounter needs you to cast a spell. Why waste a spell if the party are easily beating the encounter and taking minimal damage? So conserve those spells so that they are available to make hard encounters easier.
Secondly, have some ranged options. Cantrips such as Acid Splash are great (it also stops troll regeneration) and a light crossbow as back up. Don't forget alchemical items, especially if you've picked up some as loot. A well aimed tanglefoot bag can help your melee crew, and it can even bring down flying creatures.
Hang in there, it gets better!
I'm currently GMing ROW - Acid splash has been surprisingly effective against the bad guys so far.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Mercenaries are useless, disunited, unfaithful
They have nothing more to keep them in a battle
Other than a meager wage
Which is just about enough to make them wanna kill for you
But not enough to make them wanna die for you"John Cale
While I agree that Cale was, musically, very talented, can you shed some light on his credentials as either a tactician or a historian?
I can write a(n admittedly less-good) song that includes whatever words I like. That won't make those words true.
In quoting John Cale I didn't at all mean John Cale is a great expert so what he says on this topic must be true. If I had intended to do that I would have quoted someone like Sun Tzu.
The John Cale quote made a point I wanted to make better than I could myself.
With some voltaire fourier, I kant comte descartes broccolini.