Hi all,
I am thinking that at some point, I'll try running a PbP game on these boards. I plan to use a published adventure for PF1E as this is the system I am comfortable with. I am looking through some, but I figured I would ask two questions:
1) What published PF1E adventure is your favorite/one you want a chance to play via PbP?
2) Would you recommend that adventure to someone who is new to GMing/PbP?
I want to get some experience as a PbP player before I try my hand at running a game, so this will not happen for at least a few months. I don't feel like I have a good grasp of the commitment necessary for PbP, and I don't want to get people's hopes up before I know what I'm doing. Nevertheless, I would like to start reading through a published adventure and figuring out how to make it my own at some point fairly soon. So I figured I'd ask the above questions to help me decide which adventure to read through.
Wrath of the Righteous: Not for beginners
Kingmaker (My personal fav): I'd say it's a good one. But maybe for adv beginners if I can call it that
Just the two I enjoyed the most
And one I haven't been able to finish : Skulls and Shackles (adventures on the high seas)
Oh. And my fav 3pp PF1e AP would be Way if the Wicked (Evil campaign)
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My main recommendation is to start with something very small and self-contained. PbP is a very special beast - it is easy to overcommit and never even get to take off from the ground.
You can grab a beginner module like 'D0: Hollow's Last Hope' and take it from there. You can run it as a standalone, test the waters, ses how you feel with the pace and dynamics of PbP. And you also get the option to continue to the next modules in the sequence (D1 and D1.5, and others) if you are so inclined.
I would definitely make sure to limit the available rules to be used, otherwise you risk getting truly overwhelmed by the torrential questions about possible builds and corner cases. Also earlier modules are geared for Core PF1e, and not for the absurd powergaming we see nowadays. Want to be safe? Ask people to pick a pre-gen ;)
From my perspective, and regardless of how much I like APs, they are not a good option for a beginner. The scope is already tremendous in real life, but in PbP it is mind blowing, because the pace is extremely slow. The only way I see a beginner PbP DM (and to be honestly a veteran also) realistically approaching an AP is to break it down 'by book' - commit to playing Book 1 and nothing else. If it goes on to books 2, 3, etc, that is great. But if it does not, it is also fine. And it makes the scope much more manageable. If I had to pick one, I would go with book 1 of the ever-classic Rise of the Runelords. Has a great starting town, interesting NPCs, room for combat, social interaction, and some mystery.
Another advice from my end - pick players and not builds. Set some of the expectations from your side regarding the game you want to play (or if you have no expectations :D), and try to find those who you feel will more closely resonate with those. Of course this is subjective, but I still find it extremely important.
I know there was another thing I wanted to say, but I cannot remember at the moment, so I'll leave it at that :D
Welcome! You’ll find all sorts of interest on here. Thanks for trying PbP and also for taking on the task of running a game. People are always looking for games.
So, as someone who’s been in your shoes before, here are the top things suggest considering.
1. What rules do you want to use and which to exclude? Many DMs limit races or classes to their liking/complexity. Others include things like Elephant in the Room and Background Skill.
2. How do you want to manage combat? I use roll20 for maps, for example. Others use Google slides. Many DMs use block initiative to keep combat moving and limit time to post before botting a character. Combat can kill games if there is a lull. Anything to keep things moving.
As far as published adventures, are you interested in the Paizo APs or some of the modules? You’ll get the most interest in the APs, though that’s a long commitment and most defunct before the end.
So I’m open to almost anything. For APs, I’d love to play Mummy’s Mask, Iron Gods, Legacy of Fire, Ruins of Azlant, Skulls and Shackles, and Strange Aeons. Unfortunately, I have no idea on the easy of these on PbP.
For the modules, I’d love to play any of the Superstar winners.
Lastly, I’ll throw in Rise of the Drow as a 3pp. I have a ton of interest in that.
I hope this helps. Welcome and thanks again!
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I second Albion's advice. Pick a module, not an AP. Very few APs get finished even with very experienced GMs because it realistically will take around 10 years to do so. As an example, I'm GMing a Reign of Winter game that is about half book 2 and we are already playing for 3 years. It is a big commitment.
A good idea, if you have access to them, are PFS scenarios, since they are very short and self contained and you can easily plug and play them for as long as you want.
You could always jump in head first with a big AP like me. It is at least a 5 year commitment though, YMMV.
Make peace with the fact that games will fail more often than not. I've completed one AP and have like 5 failures.
Players will come and go, often without notice, this is fairly normal don't let it discourage you.
Pick an adventure you resonate with. If you don't like the material you're not going to have a good time.
Same with players.
I would love to play in a Wrath of the Righteous game, but yeah it's a difficult one to run. I also want to finish Skull and Shackles but I don't know if I can do the first book again.
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Dreadful:
Welcome to the PbP boards/world!
Question: Have you played or run 1st edition Pathfinder Society scenarios? They would be the best and easiest way to start GMing via PbP. I'm a long-time player and GM in-person but just started playing here in fall of 2020 and GMed my first PbP last year. The other benefit is they have Intro scenarios for 1st (or 1st and 2nd) levels which streamlines options and actions.
PFS1 scenarios are self-contained and relatively quick to run and/or play. Certainly much faster than APs. With APs, either as GM or player, you have SO much to keep track of and the slow pace of PbP makes it far more difficult in my opinion.
I have not played PFS and honestly, I'm not that interested in doing so.
With that being said, the advice to try a shorter module first makes a lot of sense. Recommendations are for Hollow's Last Hope and to look at Superstar winners. Anyone have other recommendations for modules?
1. What rules do you want to use and which to exclude? Many DMs limit races or classes to their liking/complexity. Others include things like Elephant in the Room and Background Skill.
2. How do you want to manage combat? I use roll20 for maps, for example. Others use Google slides. Many DMs use block initiative to keep combat moving and limit time to post before botting a character. Combat can kill games if there is a lull. Anything to keep things moving.
Regarding #1, I consider myself to have sufficient PF1E system mastery to feel like I can fiddle with rules a fair amount. I think I'm also up to the task of modifying encounters in published sources appropriately.
Regarding #2, I'm really not sure. I'm hoping that some experience as a PbP player will help me figure out what the best options for these things are. Based on reading PbP games, it seems like pretty much everyone uses block initiative. Most GMs also state that they will bot people after 24h. I'm lost on the map options.
Regarding overall pacing concerns voiced by several people, what are the best ways to keep things moving quickly? I've read through a couple PbP games and have seen usage of 'rule of two,' as well as some GMs autorolling/advancing people through specific sections quite quickly. It does seem like the slow pace of play is the biggest downside to PbP.
one module i always find a lot of fun, even though i only played (and ran) it once very long ago
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Take a look at The Dragon’s Demand or The Emerald Spire superdungeon. Neither is a full AP, but they’re long for modules. TDD runs from, IIRC, levels 1-7, where TES is 1-13 or so. Might be a good halfway house between a regular module and a full AP.
My favorite Adventure Path I am currently playing in might be Curse of the Crimson Throne. A mostly urban adventure path in a rather rich setting (Albeit sometimes one might be tempted to let it burn). Nice hook to get everyone together (Yay revenge!) and lots of flavor. Of course the group I'm in has a GM who encourages fun RP, and fantastic fellow players who have really well developed and roleplayed characters so maybe it is more them than the AP. Hard to tell.
As for what I would like to play that I have not yet? I hear War for the Crown can be a lot of fun for those that like to shape history and enjoy a political backdrop for their derring-do. But I mostly advise taking a look at whatever APs hit elements that YOU like. One thing Game Masters forget is that whatever you run should be fun for you too! If you hate sea voyages, then Skull and Shackles is not for you, for example.
I can certainly understand folks suggesting modules instead of a full AP. And for a starting campaign, I'd suggest Crypt of the Everflame! While it has other modules after it (And they're quite fun) , Crypt of the Everflame introduces a town seemingly built for a GM to put their own touches on the town. Mentors for the core classes are provided, the ceremony where you go to the Crypt is part of the town history and is a perfect excuse for why a group of first levelers would be assembled. I strongly suggest if you run this one you encourage your players to create an NPC or two of their own as well as find ties to the ones provided to add that investment. Each time I've played it, I've seen GMs flesh out the template with slightly different takes and it's a fantastic springboard imo. AND it's a nicer town than Falcon's Hollow.
I skimmed the Dragon's Demand and it seems cool. I would probably skip the first chapter, since I don't enjoy low level games as much. Really, I find PF1E most fun from levels 4-12 or so, and I think that's the sweet spot for character power level to fit well in most settings.
In terms of length, I actually think a shorter module, maybe 3-5 levels, would suit me better (another reason to skip TDD ch1). That way, there's a higher chance of actually finishing it. Also, given that part of the purpose would be to give me a better sense of PbP, I think a shorter 'trial' game makes more sense.
I have played through a large portion of Curse of the Crimson Throne, and I also thought it was really cool. As you said, the richness of the setting has a lot of appeal. I'll definitely check out Crypt of the Everflame.
Curse might be a great first AP for you when you’re ready to do an AP, since the first book is pretty disconnected to the rest of the AP, and can pretty easily be skipped if you don’t want to do low-level stuff.
As others have said, try something small and one-shot to begin with.
I would also recommend The Dragon's Demand when you are comfortable with it. It's a great stepping-stone to a full-length AP. I wouldn't skip the low level stuff, though. Some of the things in the tower can really shape the group.
OTOH, if you want a little shorter than DD, and you aren't a fan of lower levels, take a look at Tears at Bitter Manor. It's 5th-8th and I enjoyed running it for a live table in the past. Similar in level range and duration would be Plunder & Peril.
As someone who thought I'd have much more time than I had, start smaller. You don't know what life will throw at you, and it might axe the campaign even if you have everything planned.
Portions of APs that can be logically sectioned off, single adventures, and all of them can be done at higher levels if you cut out the beginning of an AP (much more fenagling story-wise), or pick a single adventure that already is higher-level.
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As others have said, try something small and one-shot to begin with.
I would also recommend The Dragon's Demand when you are comfortable with it. It's a great stepping-stone to a full-length AP. I wouldn't skip the low level stuff, though. Some of the things in the tower can really shape the group.
OTOH, if you want a little shorter than DD, and you aren't a fan of lower levels, take a look at Tears at Bitter Manor. It's 5th-8th and I enjoyed running it for a live table in the past. Similar in level range and duration would be Plunder & Peril.
I think Tears was my very first pathfinder game, though it didn't go very far. I'd be interested in another shot at it.
I've taken a look at Tears at Bitter Manor and don't think I like it a ton. Plunder and Peril looks cool
I appreciate the suggestions
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Lots of great advice here and I support basically all of it. These are old but I think the advice remains solid for new and experienced players alike so they’re worth a read – playing (basics), playing (advanced) and GMing PBP. PBP is a slow way of playing but it does allow for in depth roleplay, which I think is a key selling point. It also does tend to mean that players get very attached to their characters so will usually jump at the chance to continue to play them!
I am fully behind the idea of starting small for all the reasons mentioned. GMing is plenty of work and a long-term commitment. If you run a module and enjoy it and everyone wants to continue it’s easy enough to add another one on and go again, maybe eventually leading to a whole campaign. Given you’ve said you don’t love the very lowest levels and have listed your “sweet spot” level range, it’s potentially worth thinking about whether you want to run something that really is just a one shot, in which case it doesn’t really matter what level it is as long as you’re happy with it, or if it’s something that you hope might evolve into something more. If the latter then maybe starting lower is a good thing as there’s more scope to stay within that range over time. Starting towards the lower end also means it’s easier for you to have a better understanding of what the characters can do – even with decent system mastery it’s not always easy to tell exactly how strong certain characters are until you see them in action and the higher the level, the more moving parts, abilities and options available to players.
I also think the point about picking players over builds is underrated. You don’t always have a lot to go on so it might be vibes-based, and you can be wrong, but because of the slow nature of PBP, you’ll be playing together for a while so it helps if everyone is on the same page. Most recruitments tend to be done with character submissions but it’s not uncommon for the GM to select a bunch of people and then everyone develops their character. And regardless of how you do it, it is quite daunting to actually have to make a selection, especially if you’ve got four applicants for every space at the table (or that’s my experience, anyway!) Setting player expectations about what kind of game you’re running in line with the module/AP is helpful too – the more steer you can give people on the kind of game you want to run and who you are, the more likely you are to attract the players and characters you want.
Something I don’t think has been mentioned is to decide how many players you want. Personally I err towards more players for PBP – more players helps keep things moving, especially when real life happens and everyone has ebbs and flows in terms of availability. As others have said, player attrition is also real too so factoring that in from the start is a good idea. Fortunately there’s usually no shortage of people keen to play so you can find replacements, but it’s far from uncommon for someone to drop out very early or even before the game begins. You may need to adjust encounters to accommodate a higher number of players given modules and APs are generally written with four players in mind.
In terms of what you want to run, I agree that it’s important to pick something that appeals to you, both in terms of theme (classic fantasy, gothic horror, pirates) and style of play (RP-heavy political intrigue, dungeon crawl, heist). Here’s a good recent overview of what to expect from the APs and how the community generally feels about them. I’m not sure if there’s anything similar for the modules but the community hivemind may be able to help. I’m pretty sure I’ve got a list of modules organised by starting level at least – I’ll see if I can dig it out for you.
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I agree with everything being told to you.
And would add this, as someone whose ran a lot of pbp games.
1. If you want the players to post 1xd expect yourself to post 3 to 4 times a day.
2. Consider giving them more information than you would in a table top game. Lack of Information slows things down when you know they are going to find out....note this isn't plot or intrigue, it's things like minor magic items, or what the poison does when they fail.
3. It's your job to move the game along, sodo things like tell them how to advance it...like 'when three of you say you're going to bed, I'll advance game. Or I'll give til tomorrow around 5pm central standard time, then I'm advancing the round.
That overview of APs is really cool. Big fan
I appreciate the advice all around, gives me plenty to think about
1. I hope you have fun
2. I’m going to go against the grain and suggest doing an AP. All I’ve played close out fairly well and if you just do book one or hop in with book two and just do it no harm no foul but if you decide to continue the campaign you already have plot hooks to move forward with and tied in material.
3. Have a means of mapping combat. Sounds like you have game experience so you are aware the combat is not designed for theater of the mind in the majority of cases.
4. Have a means for managing combat. I probably over do it, anyone who has experienced my combat my apologies for that. But under management lends itself to confusion and loss of interest.
5. Help the game move forward. If players are saying nothing they are likely waiting on something from you. Find out what it is. If they are stuck, give them a hint.
6. Don’t belittle your players. If something is going wrong it is likely your fault. You weren’t clear, you weren’t understood, players are confused, or lost.
7. Run an AP or adventure you like. The boards are starved for dm’s so you will get players.
My two cents
I've taken a look at Tears at Bitter Manor and don't think I like it a ton. Plunder and Peril looks cool
Late to this, but wanted to comment as someone who ran Plunder and Peril as part of a Skull and Shackles campaign (it's designed to be an alternative to Skull and Shackles book 2, though of course it can also stand alone): it has three chapters and each one is written by a different developer. Each chapter itself can also be run as standalone or attached to another adventure (you just change the circumstances for how you got there), which can be a good thing. However, editing and/or post development was clearly rushed and there's some... flukes... with it (like in chapter 1, the narrative describes a major enemy as having an ability that is not listed in her stats, and the ability is relevant to the plot).
The second chapter is also pretty good and is reactive to what the players do in many cases. The fights are clearly designed, however, for a super optimized party/power gamers and I had to change or weaken several of them to avoid TPK with my smaller adventuring party that I had.
The third one feels like an adventure someone wrote for a different story and then shoehorned it into the themes and background of Plunder and Peril. After two fairly creative and interesting chapters, it's basically just a dungeon crawl. It also wastes paragraphs on useless background info (as in it has zero relevance to what is actually happening) but provides very little guidance to GMs for how PCs might approach the area. For example, you can encounter two frightened and angry NPCs that the party should know well at this point and may have even established a rapport with. But the NPCs attack the party for plot related reasons. The module just assumes the PCs will kill the NPCs and gives you absolutely no guidance as to what to do if the PCs try to talk them down or subdue and capture them (and every group I have ever played with in my life tries to talk down every intelligent whatnot they come across; I would kill for some murderhobos just for once)--which could affect how they approach future challenges. Also there's an obvious way in the story to make at least one of them unreasonably hostile that would also alert the PCs to one of the dangers of the place, but... the module doesn't apply that obvious way. The whole section felt very frustrating to run, especially with players who tend to be more creative than just follow along on a dungeon crawl.
All of this is to say not so much don't run it but be aware it is a module that requires a lot of GM awareness and prep and flexibility. There's definitely good things about it.
1) What published PF1E adventure is your favorite/one you want a chance to play via PbP?
I'm biased because I was in this competition and have a monster published in it, but I've always wanted to play Down the Blighted Path, written by the 2015 RPG Superstar winner Monica Marlowe.
I vote for NOT the trilogy that involves the cult of Razimir. I don't like that one. (Although it starts with Crypt of the Everflame, which is an oldy but goodie.)
For APs (with the caveats offered to running APs) I've always wanted to play War for the Crown, but I think that's really hard for GMs to run because of the NPC tracking. I'd like to try some of the later APs that have hardly been offered here, like Tyrant's Grasp. I've also been in three or four failed RotRL and four or five failed CotCT games, almost all dead due to GM flake or shutting the game down for one reason or another. I'd love to finish those stories, but I'm guessing they are hard on the GM (I don't think RotRL should be too hard on the GM. CotCT I think you have to track a lot of implications based on PC decisions but IIRC it's fairly well mapped out for the GM).
2) Would you recommend that adventure to someone who is new to GMing/PbP?
I've not run DtBP but IIRC it's relatively straightforward. The APs I'd check the forums here that are dedicated to those APs for GM advice.
First and foremost, you gotta pick one you know you will have fun with. If you're not having fun, no one else will be. This includes being ready to take a break if you need be.
General advice to add on to what folks have said:
1. Communicate and urge communication. Groups that provide feedback and say when they are and aren't going to be available clearly and are consistent are essential to PBP success. This includes giving feedback to the group--it's okay to ask for help from group if you're not sure what to do. "Hey guys, you went way off the rails and I am not sure how to respond to this, so I'm going to need some time to figure it out. Love the creativity, but I'll need a minute."
2. If you do choose to run an AP, I would plan to run book by book. So plan to just get through book 1 (or start at book 2 since a lot of folks have played starts of APs but never the continuations). If you feel like the game is slowing down or you couldn't keep up after the first book, bring it to a conclusion so there's some closure if you can't continue. See where everyone's energy level is, including yours, before moving onto the next book. It is okay to burn out and just bring things to a close if needed.
(I ran Skull and Shackles on the boards and made it to book 3--with probably an additional book's worth of sandbox content we threw in along the way--and then burned out. Another player in the game took on the GM duties and I became a player. That works too! Game did end before we finished the whole AP, but due to bad real life circumstances.) Also I can send lots of advice for running S&S if you want to run that one.
Down the Blighted Path looks like a lot of fun to me. Based on your description, I also think plunder/peril could be fun to try, however I’m not that interested by s&s or related aesthetics. I don’t mind if there’s a decent amount of work involved since do enjoy the thought of making my own alterations and additions.
The fact that people have likely played book1 several times makes the commence at book2 angle all the more appealing
I see the idea that mapping combat is important mentioned a couple of times. Does anyone have experience with a mapping system that they thought worked really well?
Tried several different things, but my current approach is my favorite so far - I put the map in Owlbear Rodeo, along with the minis etc, and I manage everything in there, including fog of war.
I take a quick snapshot with windows snipping tool (I think it is called something different now), paste it in a shared google drive doc, or draw, and presto!
I always have the google link shared at the top of the Campaign or in my alias. I post a combat round, then an OOC - 'Tactical Map updated'. And that's it.
I know there are options to use Roll20 or perhaps even Owlbear Rodeo and link it directly for players to access and move etc. But I like to keep it simple, and this has proven pretty straightforward, even if players want to check the map on their phone. Of course I do 99% of my posting from my PC, so that snipping/copy/pasting is a pretty straightforward process.
Another surprisingly good online, free tool I have discovered recently is Dungeonscrawl - extremely simple to use, pretty versatile and with several features even in the free version - you can save your maps, download them, have a nice pool of images, can add your own, have layers, etc. I think you can even share them directly via a link, but only on the paid version.
Lately, I have been entertaining this crazy notion of actually doing the maps by hand, taking a picture and upload them. But of course, I lack the time for it.
I see the idea that mapping combat is important mentioned a couple of times. Does anyone have experience with a mapping system that they thought worked really well?
As someone who plays rogue-types, mapping combat is important to me (flanking, tumbling, AoOa). Helps with magic, too (range, AoE, line of sight).
Maybe try Harpy's Virtual Table Top <<< Link (just that piece).
I really like roll20. Google slides are ok but no tools. Owlbear rodeo seems to have more limited tools than roll20. Also, as a player it had a habit of regularly requiring me to get permission from the dm. With roll20, once you login, any game you have access to is available for you to enter.
I’m biased but roll20 is the best vtt i’ve played on so far.
I prefer google slides because as a player roll20's mobile experience is rotten.
Slides as a GM I can copy maps directly from paizo pdfs and paste into the slide. Make some fog of war with shapes. Put in tokens taken from the pdfs or the internet and off you go. Initial set up for a game takes an hour or two and then like 5-10 minutes set up a combat.
I can't speak to roll20's GM experience because slides hasn't been bad enough to bother learning it.
Re mapping, I just use Google Draw. Everyone can access it for free without an account. I can paste maps I've made straight into it, and it's easy enough to make things like spell templates. I can even finagle making a quick basic map within it using the table function to create a grid of squares and filling in the squares with different colors to make a quick and dirty map.
I prefer Draw to Slides personally; I find it easier to zoom in and manipulate things.
I've not tried some of the other tools mentioned here and am curious to know more. I avoid anything that requires players to make an account.
Roll20 requires an account but it is free both to the GM and the player. If you are trying to do an entire AP, a GM will need to remake maps or get an account due to size of maps. I would think google slides would do the same thing. All the maps from an AP eats up space. I have this idea that I will run the AP for someone else in the future so I tend to keep all the maps.
As to the mobile experience, I'm not a fan of google slides either but admittedly it is better than trying to view a roll20 map on a phone.
Roll20 requires an account but it is free both to the GM and the player. If you are trying to do an entire AP, a GM will need to remake maps or get an account due to size of maps.
I didn't have an issue screenshotting/snipping maps and copy/pasting them into Google Draw. Size wasn't really a problem.
I did also make or remake certain maps but that was often due to my own predilections or reasons to alter the map. Not out of necessity. (And it's not like my raw files were smaller than the official AP maps).
There are other reasons to prefer one or the other, but I don't think this in particular is an issue.
I guess the mapping really needs to take into account two sides of the GM/Player divide - the GM absolutey needs to be competent and confident with the tech, and comfortable using it; but if the players don’t like it then it becomes pointless.
I would decide on what you are comfortable using and upfront get buy in from the players. No point recruiting players only for half of them to not be interested in your chosen mapping tool.
I would advise Recruit *Players* rather than *Characters*. Outline themes (type of adventure and possible sensitivities); rules (character generation specifics, do you have houserules players need to know about; how do you run initiative; do you allow Take 10 or Take 20; how do handle social skills and Perception - do you prefer to roll for the players or let them lead the narrative etc); and how you will handle mapping. See how folks respond and gauge their approach from there. Look over their aliases and playstyle. PM them if you want.
Once recruited, bring them to a Discussion thread and work out characters and other Session 0 stuff - how the intro will happen etc.
There are definitely a million ways to skin a cat, but personally I don’t bother. I’d rather snuggle and have them walk all over my newspa….drawings.
...I would advise Recruit *Players* rather than *Characters*...
I've seen this sentiment a few times. And, I tend to agree... mostly. I guess the method in which one evaluates Players is my area of interest.
Just pick people you know, your buddies... is OK (obviously. it's your table).
But, it's not really welcoming to newer players or players your don't know (but may know/respect you by reputation). But, it's basically a closed recruitment. Usual suspects sorta thing.
I think the call for characters: the call for character ideas or sheets, how players conduct themselves in the recruitment thread is telling.
You can get a sense of who you'd be dealing with on a regular basis. Manners, etiquette, respect (self and of others), ability to collaborate, patience, and getting the gist of what you're offering.
I could go on, but I think the idea is there.
...I would advise Recruit *Players* rather than *Characters*...I've seen this sentiment a few times. And, I tend to agree... mostly. I guess the method in which one evaluates Players is my area of interest.
Just pick people you know, your buddies... is OK (obviously. it's your table).
But, it's not really welcoming to newer players or players your don't know (but may know/respect you by reputation). But, it's basically a closed recruitment. Usual suspects sorta thing.
I think the call for characters: the call for character ideas or sheets, how players conduct themselves in the recruitment thread is telling.
You can get a sense of who you'd be dealing with on a regular basis. Manners, etiquette, respect (self and of others), ability to collaborate, patience, and getting the gist of what you're offering.
I could go on, but I think the idea is there.
I don't feel like OSW's idea here is so much along the lines of 'choosing those you already know' or your 'buddies', but more along the lines of, like he said:
Outline themes (type of adventure and possible sensitivities); rules (character generation specifics, do you have houserules players need to know about; how do you run initiative; do you allow Take 10 or Take 20; how do handle social skills and Perception - do you prefer to roll for the players or let them lead the narrative etc); and how you will handle mapping. See how folks respond and gauge their approach from there. Look over their aliases and playstyle. PM them if you want.
To me this is about setting expectations, and might in fact be especially relevant for new players.
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Personally when I post a recruitment I look for a number of things. 1. Is the character one I would enjoy running in the AP or adventure. 2. How would the chatacters mesh as a party. 3. Did the player read my post and build a chatacter within the guidelines...little things like if i said 2 traits, did he put three in. If I limited a race or class did he go there anyway. Not reading is indicative of a different issue.
4. Is the player helpful or challenging?
5. Is the player creating something very very unusual...a lot of times that's indicative of someone who might get bored if the character isn't performing as expected.
And a few other things. But i.dont just choose 'friends'
Yeah, I don't think the suggestion per se was to recruit someone you know. But you can look at a person's posting history and they way they behave in the recruitment to get a sense of them. You can also just ask folks to confirm they can meet posting expectations, etc. Mind, some just post an application and then shut up (which I actually appreciate), but you can usually still get a sense of player and not just character from their posting.
It still puts a newb at a disadvantage especially if they have a low posting history, as it's hard to get a read on them, but that's a fairly low occurrence, especially for a PF1 recruitment, when it's mostly applicants who've been around awhile.
And character is still a factor as well. Did the person design a character appropriate for the AP/world/proposed setting? How are they going to mix with the rest of the party? Will they have something to do? It sucks if there are two great players who both submitted nearly identical characters but one is probably not gonna get in if you have a ton of applicants and need a well-rounded party. BUT... I agree that you should consider the player first. If the applicant seems like an asshat, it doesn't matter how great their PC's backstory is.
(Indeed, I can distinctly recall many years ago rejecting a player who had a character who would have suited the story perfectly well, but they badgered me with PMs about why they were the best person for the game and how I was a fool if I didn't choose them to join the party and how it wasn't fair that they didn't get chosen for games when they work so hard to make good characters and they are the best player on the boards and... yeah, pestering me with how awesome you are is not a good way to guarantee recruitment.)
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It seems like recruiting players, not characters, doesn't necessarily mean doing things differently from the majority of recruitment threads I've looked at. Just means that you're trying to get a sense of the player, not the character. Since I am a newcomer, I don't have the option to just pick friends or players I already know.
I feel like I've gotten some good advice in general. My next question is:
Have you participated in a PbP game you thought was great? Bonus points if you link it
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I'm playing in a Dawn of Flame game that's currently on book 5 of 6, which sure doesn't happen very often. Also playing in an RotRL game run by Ironperenti that's on book 3 of 6. The GM is the key person in the longevity of a game, but having reliable players certainly helps :P
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Was in a fantastic Old School Greyhawk for PF1 game (with Albion) that had an incredibly passionate and well organised DM. ALLENDM also had a gift for not only evocative description and characterisation, but his combats were thrilling and cinematic. Take a look at the Campaign Tab populated with Campaign Maps, Tactical Maps, Houserule Docs, Player resources and loot sheets, Macros etc. The Campaign Tab goes a long way toward taking a lot of the heavy lifting and putting it in a central place.
(If I have other advice, it would be to maintain the momentum of the game through encouraging the players to use the Discussion thread. This doesn’t mean anyone should wake up to 13 new gameplay posts and 157 new Discussion posts (a slight exaggeration of a slight exaggeration I made in a thread with DQ and Albion) but it is a place to get to know each other, ask rules questions and generally support the Gameplay experience.)
And I should shout out the exceptionally wild
Blood Rage of the Wastes: All Orcs Giantslayer game I was in. A completely unhinged and blood soaked ultra violent and somehow not completely depraved opus of giants, orcs and mania. Read the initial Gameplay post - not sure how much of that is cribbed from the original AP, but I’m guessing most of it is DragonOfAshAndFlame’s own deranged and febrile mind. Our party was half the fun of the experience, each one a orc or half-orc of high degree. And again, check out the Campaign Tab. Definitely the passion that DOAAF put into the game made it pop - a lot of rule of cool and occasional handwavium but still held in a tight PF1 chassis.
And another: DM Scholar’s Kingmaker - note the Campaign tab, and again the first actual Gameplay text that has all the spoilers for each player - the DM has made great effort to bring in each player to the game and central premise and theme. With player buy-in, the rest is easy as the player characters are invested and have threads to tug at and weave in.
All three of those games had other characters I found interesting, believable and verisimilitudinous. I didn’t always gel with every other character, nor with their narrative arc, but ultimately it was the game itself, as run by the DM - inhabited by the party working as a narrative group if not a well-oiled team - that kept me playing.
PbP is a fantastic mode when it works well. And different players look for different levels of the spectrum of RP/social/combat/loot etc. Be definite about what you want to run, and find the players who like that.
And to clarify - by all means game with your buddies, but I am advocating for finding players who mesh with your style and preferences.
And definitely by all means save a spot for newbies. I’ve removed myself from games to give up a spot for new players on this forum, and definitely would do it again. The best part of leaving room for new players is that they might find themselves in a fantastic game with solid players (in terms of being helpful and welcoming, having a good posting rate, a respect for the format and the genre, and less importantly for me, system mastery) and develop into another great player.
One last thing (at least in this post) is more for the players in this thread - don’t forget to, from time to time, give big thanks to the DM for their efforts. Sure, it is a shared game, and a group effort, but especially in PbP a lot of the heavy lifting of maps and resources is on the DM to tackle. Thank you to all of you who DM and make all of our lives richer. We players can only reciprocate by paying attention (the rope was knotted OSW!!!), “log in” regularly, giviing our best, not trying to metagame or hog the spotlight and to have our *characters* inhabit a world that makes sense to them, if not us!!!
And I should shout out the exceptionally wild
Blood Rage of the Wastes: All Orcs Giantslayer game I was in. A completely unhinged and blood soaked ultra violent and somehow not completely depraved opus of giants, orcs and mania. Read the initial Gameplay post - not sure how much of that is cribbed from the original AP, but I’m guessing most of it is DragonOfAshAndFlame’s own deranged and febrile mind. Our party was half the fun of the experience, each one a orc or half-orc of high degree. And again, check out the Campaign Tab. Definitely the passion that DOAAF put into the game made it pop - a lot of rule of cool and occasional handwavium but still held in a tight PF1 chassis.
I miss this game to this day.
It seems like recruiting players, not characters, doesn't necessarily mean doing things differently from the majority of recruitment threads I've looked at. Just means that you're trying to get a sense of the player, not the character. Since I am a newcomer, I don't have the option to just pick friends or players I already know.
I feel like I've gotten some good advice in general. My next question is:
Have you participated in a PbP game you thought was great? Bonus points if you link it
Sometimes you can pick players based on their posting rates. Not the case for new players but it's usually good to have established PbP folks in games as PbPs only last if the Players post. New players should also be given the chance obviously, but I find a mix of veteran and new players works well.
When a Recruitment has a TON of submissions picking a character based on the balance of the group can help decide who to pick when submissions alone make the selection difficult. If you have 3 players submit amazingly well built Wizards in a party of four, hard to take those 3 wizards even if their builds and backstory might be better than someone who submitted a Cleric.
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This game has been going since 2008 though I have not been in it since the beginning. Chronicles of the Silver Rose Company DM is innovative creating some pretty wild scenarios. Still loving playing in it.
I'll toot my own horn here, the original thread is long closed (on the fourth thread now with a new chronicle starting, after running the initial opening chronicle for 13 years and 3 separate threads) but at one point in time I ran the Chronicle with 13 players, who most of the time were individually acting on their own, with the main plot as the 14th character. Dark Ages Vampire - Bloodlines.
Well, not to toot Storyteller Shadow’s horn either, but when I was in their also-awesome Eberron game…7 or more years ago, Storyteller was running I think…close to 30 games concurrently, and that Eberron game *as far as I understood at the the time* itself ran two tables - one in Gameplay and one in Discussion. So they might have a good idea or two…
I'll toot my own horn here, the original thread is long closed (on the fourth thread now with a new chronicle starting, after running the initial opening chronicle for 13 years and 3 separate threads)... Dark Ages Vampire - Bloodlines.
Toot, brother... Toot!
I had the pleasure of being in this campaign since 2012 (I was newer to the boards and he gave me a chance), though I missed a year or two - can't recall... Storyteller Shadow was kind/practical enough to keep the character as an NPC, not knowing if I'd ever return.
He forgets to mention the fourth chronicle is - by popular demand! There, I play the Ventrue, Alessandro Khadaji.
Some other memorable campaigns:
Baldwin The Mercifuls CoT, playing Gerard Nisroc.
Night Of The Werewolf, playing Sandru.
Caldovan Marches 2022, where I'm Djack Nymball. And, it's only one of a handful (many 5-7?) enjoyable games by Rando1000. He lets them run their course, switches it up and keeps them fresh.
Missed the edit window... sorry!
Strength and Fear: An Ustalavic Kingmaker Campaign, playing Valeska Talanova.
Missed the edit window... sorry!
Strength and Fear: An Ustalavic Kingmaker Campaign, playing Valeska Talanova.
I was in that one toward the end. I think I missed its height but it was a great group of players with a good GM who just needed to stop running for RL reasons.
I've been in a lot of PBPs that started great but then petered out... or had to be stopped due to RL getting in the way. As often happens. So it's hard to think about which ones to point to... Some were truly great. Others were object lessons.
One of three PBPs, and the only Pathfinder one, that went to completion that I played in was Papa DRB's Moru Country. I think we were a little burned out by the end but it was still a fantastic campaign with some great players and characters.
Another that went to completion but was Mutants and Masterminds was Gm SuperTumbler's Eldritch: Netherwar. Which was an entirely different system but I accidentally created and played a paladin. Still a great game.
Honorable mention to GM Norv's Curse of the Crimson Throne which went strong until grad school ate the GM. Curse of the Crimson Throne itself seems to be a cursed AP... I've been in three that all lost their GMs, and I know of very few that ever finished. It's one I'd love to play to completion, especially with the character I made for it, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.
This was a fantastic game. I'd have to say my favorite. There were a couple of others I really liked, but this was probably the one I liked best. Solid group, a solid GM. Just all around amazing.
And I will echo DeathQuaker:
It's one I'd love to play to completion, especially with the character I made for it, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.
Yep. Probably not for me either. And it's not simply just to play it to completion, it's to play it to completion with a group and a DM that work well together. Finding that kind of chemistry is REALLY difficult. At least, in my experience, it has been.
RL killed it. The DM decided to call it quits due to RL. It happens. Fairly often, actually. I mean, it is what it is. Whether it's players or DM's. To have somebody NOT drop out would be shocking.
I've never actually finished an AP. I did finish a couple of one-shot type games, though. They don't take nearly as long. Roughly 6 months to a year.
Although, it looks like I may be on the verge of finishing an AP or two I have going currently. I wasn't in them from the beginning, but still. I'll take it if it happens. :)
Outside of 1. There is 1 that I've been in from the get-go. So, we'll see. The other ones are closer to finishing.
