The investigator does 5d6 once per round and they made it far easier for remastered investigators to get the Devise a Stratagem as a free action. I see no reason why one additional d6 of damage should lead to such an intense limit on the swashbuckler other than the name "Finisher" which I guess the designer wanted to be a killing blow type of attack.Sorry, but a Finisher does much more than 6d6 damage. Bleeding Finisher (which is a staple) does 6d6 damage + 6d6 Persistent damage. Dual Finisher allows you to make 2 attacks with no MAP + 6d6 damage. That's a whole lot of damage that could largely justify a second action. And even if Perfect Finisher doesn't exactly increase your damage, rolling twice and taking the best result, especially on an attack with extra damage, leads to crazy average damage output.
The damage issue of the Swashbuckler is mostly a low level one, when you are stuck with Confident Finisher which is far from overwhelming (dealing damage on a miss is kind of stupid, the whole goal of making a Finisher is to hit for high damage, not to get ridiculous damage on a miss).
I already stated Bleeding Finisher was an outlier, but there are immune creature and bleed damage is subject to physical resistance.
Dual Finisher with two attacks requires two weapons which not every swashbuckler uses and close targets. It's about on par with Swipe and weaker than Whirlwind Attack when many targets are about.
Other than those, it does 6d6 damage which a rogue thief can do once they land a debilitation. Having played a high level rogue, once you obtain gang up getting flat-footed is pretty easy and even easier with double debilitation where you can stack on an extra 2d6 per hit for 6d6 every attack and flat-footed to every attack with no requirements to have panache or anything else. It works with Opportune Backstab.
The question is not whether the swashbuckler has a few good abilities, the question is does Bleeding Finisher or...
...The investigator does 5d6 once per round and they made it far easier for remastered investigators to get the Devise a Stratagem as a free action. I see no reason why one additional d6 of damage should lead to such an intense limit on the swashbuckler other than the name "Finisher" which I guess the designer wanted to be a killing blow type of attack.Sorry, but a Finisher does much more than 6d6 damage. Bleeding Finisher (which is a staple) does 6d6 damage + 6d6 Persistent damage. Dual Finisher allows you to make 2 attacks with no MAP + 6d6 damage. That's a whole lot of damage that could largely justify a second action. And even if Perfect Finisher doesn't exactly increase your damage, rolling twice and taking the best result, especially on an attack with extra damage, leads to crazy average damage output.
The damage issue of the Swashbuckler is mostly a low level one, when you are stuck with Confident Finisher which is far from overwhelming (dealing damage on a miss is kind of stupid, the whole goal of making a Finisher is to hit for high damage, not to get ridiculous damage on a miss).
I already stated Bleeding Finisher was an outlier, but there are immune creature and bleed damage is subject to physical resistance.
Dual Finisher with two attacks requires two weapons which not every swashbuckler uses and close targets. It's about on par with Swipe and weaker than Whirlwind Attack when many targets are about.
Other than those, it does 6d6 damage which a rogue thief can do once they land a debilitation. Having played a high level rogue, once you obtain gang up getting flat-footed is pretty easy and even easier with double debilitation where you can stack on an extra 2d6 per hit for 6d6 every attack and flat-footed to every attack with no requirements to have panache or anything else. It works with Opportune Backstab.
The question is not whether the swashbuckler has a few good abilities, the
That is a brutal differential.
...The investigator does 5d6 once per round and they made it far easier for remastered investigators to get the Devise a Stratagem as a free action. I see no reason why one additional d6 of damage should lead to such an intense limit on the swashbuckler other than the name "Finisher" which I guess the designer wanted to be a killing blow type of attack.Sorry, but a Finisher does much more than 6d6 damage. Bleeding Finisher (which is a staple) does 6d6 damage + 6d6 Persistent damage. Dual Finisher allows you to make 2 attacks with no MAP + 6d6 damage. That's a whole lot of damage that could largely justify a second action. And even if Perfect Finisher doesn't exactly increase your damage, rolling twice and taking the best result, especially on an attack with extra damage, leads to crazy average damage output.
The damage issue of the Swashbuckler is mostly a low level one, when you are stuck with Confident Finisher which is far from overwhelming (dealing damage on a miss is kind of stupid, the whole goal of making a Finisher is to hit for high damage, not to get ridiculous damage on a miss).
I already stated Bleeding Finisher was an outlier, but there are immune creature and bleed damage is subject to physical resistance.
Dual Finisher with two attacks requires two weapons which not every swashbuckler uses and close targets. It's about on par with Swipe and weaker than Whirlwind Attack when many targets are about.
Other than those, it does 6d6 damage which a rogue thief can do once they land a debilitation. Having played a high level rogue, once you obtain gang up getting flat-footed is pretty easy and even easier with double debilitation where you can stack on an extra 2d6 per hit for 6d6 every attack and flat-footed to every attack with no requirements to have panache or anything else. It works with Opportune Backstab.
The question is not whether the swashbuckler has a few good abilities, the
Is it any better if you make Finisher damage the first strike?
Yes. I didn't put then because when we add too many lines in PF2Calculator they begin to overlay too much and become hard to understand.
But in all my tests using only MAPless finishers vs same level High AC off-guard enemy, every finisher was worse than Strike with Precision Strike bonus + MAP -5/-4 finisher (including do a MAP-5 with a Deadly d8 weapon like a rapier is a bit stronger than use a MAP-4 agile weapon with only exception of Illimitable Finisher but the diference still minimal and in practice every other finishers are worse than Bleeding Finisher and Perfect Finisher my wish was to remove the other finishers from the comparison but I kept to prove the difference).
Yes. I didn't put then because when we add too many lines in PF2Calculator they begin to overlay too much and become hard to understand.
But in all my tests using only MAPless finishers vs same level High AC off-guard enemy, every finisher was worse than Strike with Precision Strike bonus + MAP -5/-4 finisher (including do a MAP-5 with a Deadly d8 weapon like a rapier is a bit stronger than use a MAP-4 agile weapon with only exception of Illimitable Finisher but the diference still minimal).
I see. The rogue in our group is using a shortsword rather than elven curveblade because they like the agile property.
I made a small fix in the graph I had wrongly added the reactive attacks before their levels. These reaction are only added starting from level 6 to swashbucklers and from lvl 8 to rogues.
Now the graph shows a gap where swashbucklers are better DPR than rogues during the levels 6 and 7 if the enemies are being forced to trigger Reactive Strikes.
All that said even with graph giving a minor advantage to rogues it's important to notice the in lower levels rogues doesn't get this DPR so easily. Before the get Gang Up at level 6 they usually needs to flank or feint to grant their Sneak Attacks what usually consume some of their actions and put they in more risky positions and some times, specially in close corridors, flank can even be impossible forcing them to do only to use actions to take only one Sneak Attack per round. This gives some "advantage" for swashbucklers during lowest levels once that they have get a bravado in some way, usually using panache and be restricted to do only one finisher per round isn't so bad.
But after take Gang Up all this problems basically disappear once that rogue can basically "flank" in every position.
Another important point is that Reactive Strike usually is more harder to get than Opportune Backstab specially for parties with many melee allies once that the only thing that Reactive Strike needs that the enemy to use some move or manipulate action something that usually only made by casters or ranged enemies or someone needs to use actions to Trip an enemy to try to force it to Stand and trigger the move reaction. This usually costs one or more attacks from swashbucklers and other allied martials what diminishes someone DPR a lot. Opportune Backstab simply doesn't requires this once that only thing that this reaction needs is that some melee ally hits one enemy in your reach with a melee attack. Something way more easier to successfully happen than Trip an enemy and then hope that this enemy uses Stand to trigger your reaction.
IMO these differences gives some more realistic advantages to damage for swashbucklers in lowest levels (before level 10) and for rogues in highest levels (starting from lvl 10) than a simply white room comparison can do. So even being too close please doesn't consider that swashbucklers are really so weaker specially in lowest levels.
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I made a small fix in the graph I had wrongly added the reactive attacks before their levels. These reaction are only added starting from level 6 to swashbucklers and from lvl 8 to rogues.
Now the graph shows a gap where swashbucklers are better DPR than rogues during the levels 6 and 7 if the enemies are being forced to trigger Reactive Strikes.
That makes sense as rogues scale up as well as they do because of Debilitations and Opportune Backstab and Gang up being so good. Rogues have ally good feat choices that scale well as the class levels.
Not every class does.
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I made a comparision with PF2Calculator and the DPR difference between rogue and swashbuckler become huge when rogue get Precise and Bloody Debilitations. The advantage of do precision damage in every Strike in tremendous.
I don't think anything can compete with your Rogue. At level 20, 70 damage per round is a good measure of expected damage, 100 when taking reactions into account. Anything beyond that starts to raise one of my eyebrows.
I wonder how you calculated your Debilitations. Precise Debilitations doesn't improve the Strike that apply it and Bloody Debilitations doesn't stack with itself and is not multiplied on a critical hit. I have doubts you took all that into account. If you added 2d6/3d6/5d6 damage to every strike then you significantly improved the Rogue average damage output.Also, considering the enemy is always Off Guard is factually wrong. I even find that at high level you have more and more enemies that avoid it, either through All Around Vision, mobility, the ability to move your allies on the battlefield or prevent them to flank (Stunned, Paralyzed, Controlled, Confused, etc...).
And reactions can't also be considered as a given. Opportune Backstab is by far the easiest to trigger in the whole game and it assures you the enemy is Off Guard (outside All Around Vision) but there are rounds where it won't be triggered because bad luck happens, rounds where you will lose your reactions (Stunned, Laughing Fit) and rounds where you'll strike a dead enemy (you have to use it before knowing the result of your ally's attack).
On the other hand, I question Reactive Strike on a Swashbuckler. Unless you have a Trip martial, you will never trigger it and in general for really low damage even if you have Panache at that time. There are excellent Panache generating reactions like Flashy Dodge or Charmed Life which are in my opinion more interesting.
Rogue is a massively damaging class when everything is under control. On the other hand, it has a lot of pain points that can suddenly turn it into a dead weight, especially at the worst moment, ie. when s**t hits the fan. That's why I don't like to use it as a measure of effectiveness as it's a really unreliable class. I prefer to use a good Greatsword Fighter who's damage output is really consistant.
This is an analysis of if the swashbuckler damage is competitive in groups, so this talk of a third action is irrelevant. If that is what is expected of the swashbuckler, they are going to suck.
On that I fully agree with Deriven. Third actions are not impactful enough to shift a build value.
The Swashbuckler asset, like the Precision Ranger and the Monk, is action economy. That's always really hard to judge as it's value is partly GM/table-dependent and otherwise asks for complicated builds.
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As a thought, what if finishers prevented you from making attacks against the finisher's target, or targets, rather than at all? You'd still be making one final move against a target for the turn, but would at least have the chance to pivot to another opponent, which would work within the fantasy of the Swashbuckler.
I made a comparision with PF2Calculator and the DPR difference between rogue and swashbuckler become huge when rogue get Precise and Bloody Debilitations. The advantage of do precision damage in every Strike in tremendous.
I can't edit my previous post as I waited too long.
For the Swashbuckler, you used a Strike then a Finisher. That's not really interesting as the increase of damage compared to solely performing the Finisher is lower than a third attack (and it costs you a feat to reduce your MAP on Finishers). It's better to just make a single Finisher and ignore normal Strikes as a Swashbuckler.
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I think I will make the Finisher tag work more like a flourish. I am not seeing a reason why a finisher prevents all further attack actions.
The investigator does 5d6 once per round and they made it far easier for remastered investigators to get the Devise a Stratagem as a free action. I see no reason why one additional d6 of damage should lead to such an intense limit on the swashbuckler other than the name "Finisher" which I guess the designer wanted to be a killing blow type of attack.
Since it doesn't actually work this way in the game, I'll consider the "finisher" more of a deadly technique of the swashbuckler they can use once a round without additional limitation. I'll adjust if I see problems with it.
I think with the need to obtain panache every round and a maximum of one finisher a round and MAP, that should all be enough to throttle the finisher to the right level of power, especially compared to the rogue or fighter or barbarian.
I accidentally ran Finishers this was for a couple of levels due to a misread of the rules, and then I intentionally started running Finishers this way and didn't regret it. There are a few finishers that are weaker than they otherwise would be - the one that reduces MAP effects on the finisher, for example - but overall I find it to be a nice QoL change without a huge impact on the game balance.
To illustrate my philosophy with the Swashbuckler and going into Deriven's direction of not taking any Dedication, here's a simple level 1 Swashbuckler:
Takss, Braggart Swashbuckler Frilled Lizardfolk Tax Collector
Str +0, Dex +4, Con +1, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha +3
Feats: Flashy Dodge, Bone Magic
Cantrips: Electric Arc
Classic first round is Threatening Approach (Move + Panache + Demoralize for Frightened 2) + Finisher.
Flashy Dodge as a Reaction.
Classic subsequent round when Flashy Dodge worked: Finisher + Electric Arc.
In terms of damage, if I add both rounds, it's equivalent to a Greatsword Fighter making 2 attacks during 2 rounds. In terms of debuff, it Demoralizes with a maxed out (+7) Intimidation bonus for Frightened 2 (which I think we can all agree is a significant debuff). In terms of tanking, between the Frightened condition and the +2 from Flashy Dodge, it's also very good.
I think this build overshadows most martials at level 1.
That's what I want to show by stating a Swashbuckler needs an impactful 2-action activity. With the proper ability, I don't see the Swashbuckler as a subpar martial. But for that you need quite some system mastery, it's hard to get the best out of such a good action economy. The Swashbuckler is, in my opinion, one of the hardest classes to build and play.
PS: I always wanted to play a Frilled Lizardfolk but never managed to find a suitable build. I think I finally got one! Don't steal my Takss in PFS!
I wonder how you calculated your Debilitations. Precise Debilitations doesn't improve the Strike that apply it and Bloody Debilitations doesn't stack with itself and is not multiplied on a critical hit. I have doubts you took all that into account. If you added 2d6/3d6/5d6 damage to every strike then you significantly improved the Rogue average damage output.
Wow I didn't notice this before. Precise debilitations works only for the next attacks for some reason in my mind I always considered the it affects the current attack retroactively.
I will adjust the calculations considering this.
Bloody debilitations is already auto-adjusted by PF2Calculator, they don't stack persistent damage of same type, instead just improve the chances to trigger it.
Also, considering the enemy is always Off Guard is factually wrong. I even find that at high level you have more and more enemies that avoid it, either through All Around Vision, mobility, the ability to move your allies on the battlefield or prevent them to flank (Stunned, Paralyzed, Controlled, Confused, etc...).
In practice this is very very rare. I completed 2 APs from 1-20 and in practice we rarely find an enemy "immune" to flank and when they exists it's not uncommon that they have lower level than players what prevents "Deny Advantage" like abilities to work also monsters with "All Around Vision" are less than 3% of current available monsters. In practice is easier to find some monsters immune to precision damage (what also affects swashbucklers) than to flank. So I just ignore this in comparison for the sake of simplicity.
About conditions that prevent flank theoretically you are right but again in practice most of melee martials have a high fortitude with some kind of juggernaut ability. I rarely saw then being affect by most conditions that requires a fortitude check. Theoretically conditions like Controlled and Confused may work better but they usually have incapacitation trait so they usually requires that enemies have a higher level than players what again was very rare in practice during my games (and I love to use mind spells vs my players yet it's rare in many APs, in practice casters and caster like creatures are rare to find in high numbers in most adventure, casters/monsters that are specialized in "mind control" are even more rare and finally casters/monsters with "mind control" with level equal or greater than players are even more rare) and yet also usually needs that players fails their checks.
Another common point is that isn't rare, specially in games with more than 4 players, to have more than 2 martials (including rogue) what helps Gang Up. So in my experiences rogues almost always fighting vs off-guard enemies due Surprise Attack and Gang Up are the rule by far not the exception.
And reactions can't also be considered as a given. Opportune Backstab is by far the easiest to trigger in the whole game and it assures you the enemy is Off Guard (outside All Around Vision) but there are rounds where it won't be triggered because bad luck happens, rounds where you will lose your reactions (Stunned, Laughing Fit) and rounds where you'll strike a dead enemy (you have to use it before knowing the result of your ally's attack).
On the other hand, I question Reactive Strike on a Swashbuckler. Unless you have a Trip martial, you will never trigger it and in general for really low damage even if you have Panache at that time. There are excellent Panache generating reactions like Flashy Dodge or Charmed Life which are in my opinion more interesting.
I don't disagree but I'm doing this comparison due how easy is still to trigger a Opportune Backstab also I put Reactive Strike to swashbucklers also to prevent to create even a greater DPR distance between them. Also to have a way to use your reactions still one of the main strategy of my players to optimize their DPR and that usually works.
I will try to make a graph comparison without the reactions for curiosity too later.
Rogue is a massively damaging class when everything is under control. On the other hand, it has a lot of pain points that can suddenly turn it into a dead weight, especially at the worst moment, ie. when s**t hits the fan. That's why I don't like to use it as a measure of effectiveness as it's a really unreliable class. I prefer to use a good Greatsword Fighter who's damage output is really consistant.
I comprehend but fighter are way more combat oriented than rogues and swashbucklers IMO also once the both are lighter martials I simply consider that they are more closer thematically than fighters. Also disable a rogue really is not a hard thing but also is not that common. In most encounters usually they find a way to make enemies off-guard even if this enemies cannot be flanked or surprised. This may hurt their action economy, of course, but rarelly fully disables them (but we still have the notable cases of precision immunity what disable most damage of every rogue without Powerful Sneak but again this is also valid for swashbucklers).
In practice this is very very rare.
I tend to disagree. Anyway, that'd be a gigantic post to respond to an enormous one, I'm not sure anyone but us is interested in such a conversation inside a Swashbuckler discussion. If you want to have it, you can PM me.
I made the Precise Debilitations adjustments after I notice my mistake pointed by SuperBidi. Yet this doesn't changed the big difference from classes that much. Also this considers only the first turn. Due the debilitations duration lasts until the end of your next turn it's very likely that the old graph is still valid for 2nd round and so on.
I also made a graph without the reactions what put swashbucklers more in par with rogues yet it still hard to compete with double debilitation.
In practice this is very very rare.I tend to disagree. Anyway, that'd be a gigantic post to respond to an enormous one, I'm not sure anyone but us is interested in such a conversation inside a Swashbuckler discussion. If you want to have it, you can PM me.
It is a discussion with no future because it reflects the difference in experiences.
It is a discussion with no future because it reflects the difference in experiences.
Ok, no problem ;)
As a side note, you didn't comment my build showing what I consider a good approach in building a Swashbuckler (but you were posting at the same time, so you may have missed it).
It's much closer to what I consider the Swashbuckler role: A mix of damage, tanking and support. And that's why I find the comparison with a pure damage dealer Rogue rather unhelpful.
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In practice this is very very rare.I tend to disagree. Anyway, that'd be a gigantic post to respond to an enormous one, I'm not sure anyone but us is interested in such a conversation inside a Swashbuckler discussion. If you want to have it, you can PM me.
I'm with you YuriP. Rogue keeping things off-guard just gets easier and easier and easier.
I played a thief rogue to level 20 and they are absolutely brutal. It's so easy to play a rogue that can't even be seen if they don't want to be.
This is mainly a thief. Though Debilitations don't apply until the next attack, once you do apply them you can keep them on indefinitely. The Thief rogue has a debilitation that can off-guard a target no matter what as long as they are not immune to damage.
I've kept so many targets off-guard indefinitely. Don't matter if they have all-around site, confusion, can't be flank, controlled, or any of that. Just off-guard them once anyway you can whether trip or invis or feint first or sneak up on them, damage them, and then they are off-guard until dead or you miss before the end of your next turn.
Thief rogues are brutal. Ruffian a little less so. No one in my group plays anything but a thief or ruffian.
I know no one plays much at level 20, but then it don't matter if they're off-guard any longer. You always get your sneak attack damage. And you have that master strike which is just a mook destroyer. Sneak in , do a killing blow against a bunch of mooks that can't even find you.
I didn't see Thief also had this one. Thief really has it all, there's such a difference between it and the other Rackets that when people speak of Rogue they just speak of Thief Rogue.
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It is a discussion with no future because it reflects the difference in experiences.Ok, no problem ;)
As a side note, you didn't comment my build showing what I consider a good approach in building a Swashbuckler (but you were posting at the same time, so you may have missed it).
I build is good an uses the swashbuckler abilities. It works pretty good in the initial levels.
It's much closer to what I consider the Swashbuckler role: A mix of damage, tanking and support. And that's why I find the comparison with a pure damage dealer Rogue rather unhelpful.
That's the point that I talked about since the beginning but I stopped enfasis on it when Firelion ask to focus into DPR (because it was where his player as suffering about).
But IMO swashbuckers fun is in way more things than just do damage. That's why I said since the beginning, if a player is focusing into maximise his damage output probably swashbuckler isn't the best option to do this. It isn't like wasn't possible to do some serious damage but it's harder than other classes to do this and the class have many other fun things to do. Even rogues aren't best option for DPR they shine as all-rounder skill monkey that also can do some good damage.
That said I still think that finishers could get some improvements. Many people, specially those that didn't get the idea behind play as a swashbuckler sometimes get frustrated when they notice that just focus into use just finishers isn't the best thing that you have to do.
That's the point that I talked about since the beginning but I stopped enfasis on it when Firelion ask to focus into DPR (because it was where his player as suffering about).
In my opinion, if you want to get into the DPR maximization as a Swashbuckler, the build would be a thrown build with Chakram with a routine of Dual Finisher + some spell (Electric Arc is easy to grab even if it's not incredible). And you get your Panache with free actions and reactions so you can just spam Dual Finisher and EA. I get to 54 damage at level 20 on 2 targets. So it depends how you value damage on 2 targets compared to one, but that makes some fine damage.
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I didn't see Thief also had this one. Thief really has it all, there's such a difference between it and the other Rackets that when people speak of Rogue they just speak of Thief Rogue.
Ruffian is pretty good too. I've seen a Ruffian to 20. That weakness they apply can be pretty nice for the group.
But the thief rogue I do consider probably the best martial in the game as they stack everything in one direction meaning their stats, skills, feats, and everything synergizes perfectly with the class to make them powerful.
I put them above the fighter even, though fighter is number 2 and probably equal to Ruffian and better than other rogue rackets.
Thief rogue is ridiculous. It all synergizes. You should try one sometime as high up as you can go just to put your optimization hat on and see how amazing the thief rogue is.
In practice this is very very rare.I tend to disagree. Anyway, that'd be a gigantic post to respond to an enormous one, I'm not sure anyone but us is interested in such a conversation inside a Swashbuckler discussion. If you want to have it, you can PM me.I'm with you YuriP. Rogue keeping things off-guard just gets easier and easier and easier.
I played a thief rogue to level 20 and they are absolutely brutal. It's so easy to play a rogue that can't even be seen if they don't want to be.
This is mainly a thief. Though Debilitations don't apply until the next attack, once you do apply them you can keep them on indefinitely. The Thief rogue has a debilitation that can off-guard a target no matter what as long as they are not immune to damage.
I've kept so many targets off-guard indefinitely. Don't matter if they have all-around site, confusion, can't be flank, controlled, or any of that. Just off-guard them once anyway you can whether trip or invis or feint first or sneak up on them, damage them, and then they are off-guard until dead or you miss before the end of your next turn.
Thief rogues are brutal. Ruffian a little less so. No one in my group plays anything but a thief or ruffian.
I know no one plays much at level 20, but then it don't matter if they're off-guard any longer. You always get your sneak attack damage. And you have that master strike which is just a mook destroyer. Sneak in , do a killing blow against a bunch of mooks that can't even find you.
I made a Ruffian Rogue and they are also pretty brutal! Play with a heavy armored rogue (via sentinel dedication) and rising a fortress shield goes against everything that everyone expects from a rogue :P.
OK I don't get same ability to disable traps so well yet it is usually good enough to deal with most hazards and I'm still a rogue, still have a good amount of precision damage but now using a Gnome Flickmace a very high AC, many skills, many skill feats, flanking almost all the time, striking as reaction frequenly, Vicious Debilitations is something strong that you allies love too (and you still able to get bloody debilitations too) and becomes good in all 3 saves.
It is a discussion with no future because it reflects the difference in experiences.Ok, no problem ;)
As a side note, you didn't comment my build showing what I consider a good approach in building a Swashbuckler (but you were posting at the same time, so you may have missed it).
I build is good an uses the swashbuckler abilities. It works pretty good in the initial levels.
It's much closer to what I consider the Swashbuckler role: A mix of damage, tanking and support. And that's why I find the comparison with a pure damage dealer Rogue rather unhelpful.That's the point that I talked about since the beginning but I stopped enfasis on it when Firelion ask to focus into DPR (because it was where his player as suffering about).
But IMO swashbuckers fun is in way more things than just do damage. That's why I said since the beginning, if a player is focusing into maximise his damage output probably swashbuckler isn't the best option to do this. It isn't like wasn't possible to do some serious damage but it's harder than other classes to do this and the class have many other fun things to do. Even rogues aren't best option for DPR they shine as all-rounder skill monkey that also can do some good damage.
That said I still think that finishers could get some improvements. Many people, specially those that didn't get the idea behind play as a swashbuckler sometimes get frustrated when they notice that just focus into use just finishers isn't the best thing that you have to do.
You could build a trip swashbuckler as a control martial.
I've watched the swashbuckler played to 17 and 11 and now 8, I'm not sure what else they bring to a group besides damage others can't do as well or better.
The panache generation is a bit like having to use Hunt Prey every round but requiring a roll. The one big finisher attack a round is a bit like a spellstrike magus but even more limiting with less power on the hit.
This seems to be the price for having 10 hit points per level and a better AC than the rogue.
I'm not exactly sure what they wanted the swashbuckler to do compared to other martials other than a powerful finishing strike and a sort of Errol Flynn style of swashbuckling conceptually. My friend likes the concept part, but the execution feels weak and frustrating though he does like the much easier panache generation.
But so many tout these abilities the swashbuckler can do, but why? In a group a fighter or barb with crashdown would be far better at tripping. A charisma based caster would be better at charisma debuffs when they aren't using their spells. The rogue does more damage and applies debilitations when they get them much easier.
What does the swashbuckler have standing out for them that others cannot do as well or better?
The panache generation is a bit like having to use Hunt Prey every round but requiring a roll. The one big finisher attack a round is a bit like a spellstrike magus but even more limiting with less power on the hit.
And less versatile and doesn't have so many damage types and extra effects that a magus can use.
Bit IMO Panache has the currently the advantage of not only be an action tax because it also can debuff. In this point it's more interesting and rewarding than magus' recharge (specially if you aren't using a conflux spell) or ranger's Hunt Pray.
This seems to be the price for having 10 hit points per level and a better AC than the rogue.
Better AC? Why?
But so many tout these abilities the swashbuckler can do, but why? In a group a fighter or barb with crashdown would be far better at tripping. A charisma based caster would be better at charisma debuffs when they aren't using their spells. The rogue does more damage and applies debilitations when they get them much easier.
Debilitations are an important debuffing mechanic of the rogue but they comes only in mid level. Before this the best thing that a rogue can do is help to make targets off-guard easier.
But swashbucklers have their own cool things like One For All to Aid an ally even at range using Diplomacy and without a GM like SuperBidi applying MAP on it :P, Antagonize and Enjoy the Show that can forces enemy to move in your direction and waste actions (and trigger some reactions) or stay frightened until do this, Leading Dance that forces move without have an attack trait an so on. I won't extend in this because the swashbuckler is full of feats that makes some debuff or control usually in some fun way.
Rogues also have some debuffing/control feats but most of them are more damage or exploration oriented than swashbucklers feats.
The panache generation is a bit like having to use Hunt Prey every round but requiring a roll. The one big finisher attack a round is a bit like a spellstrike magus but even more limiting with less power on the hit.And less versatile and doesn't have so many damage types and extra effects that a magus can use.
Bit IMO Panache has the currently the advantage of not only be an action tax because it also can debuff. In this point it's more interesting and rewarding than magus' recharge (specially if you aren't using a conflux spell) or ranger's Hunt Pray.
This seems to be the price for having 10 hit points per level and a better AC than the rogue.Better AC? Why?
But so many tout these abilities the swashbuckler can do, but why? In a group a fighter or barb with crashdown would be far better at tripping. A charisma based caster would be better at charisma debuffs when they aren't using their spells. The rogue does more damage and applies debilitations when they get them much easier.Debilitations are an important debuffing mechanic of the rogue but they comes only in mid level. Before this the best thing that a rogue can do is help to make targets off-guard easier.
But swashbucklers have their own cool things like One For All to Aid an ally even at range using Diplomacy
and without a GM like SuperBidi applying MAP on it:P, Antagonize and Enjoy the Show that can forces enemy to move in your direction and waste actions (and trigger some reactions) or stay frightened until do this, Leading Dance that forces move without have an attack trait an so on. I won't extend in this because the swashbuckler is full of feats that makes some debuff or control usually in some fun way.Rogues also have some debuffing/control feats but most of them are more damage or exploration oriented than swashbucklers feats.
The swashbuckler is a little more defensive than the rogue. Did they remove the Dueling Dance feat from the swashbuckler? I recall them having a stance that allowed them to parry every round with a weapon, but it looks gone now. They have a buckler feat line that allows them to raise a shield with no action. They have more defensive options than the rogue.
I don't see those as optimal builds. The One For All is better as an archetype feat on a bard or charisma caster than on the swashbuckler.
I haven't seen many scenarios where the swashbuckler stands out much for what it can do over other martial classes. My player likes it for the concept, but finds the effectiveness lacking.
The point is not that there are things that other classes can do better but currently he is the most debuffing/control true martial class without appeal to magic/alchemy.
I don't know how this is worth for some players but maybe someone like to play in this way. Anyway the class still fun IMO I can´t grant that it is well optimized but still fun.
It is similar to Investigator IMO. We know that investigator isn't a strong martial but if you want the investigation features/feats to have fun metagaming gettering information from GM with many fun, curious and sometimes absurd investigation feats this can be a class for you.
This seems to be the price for having 10 hit points per level and a better AC than the rogue.Better AC? Why?
Feats like Flashy Dodge and Charmed Life are good at increasing your defenses (and I won't speak of Incredible Luck). Buckler Dance is a must have (but they have removed the other Stance which is still available in environments where old feats are available). And Opportune Riposte can get an enemy thinking twice before using a third attack. Overall, the Swashbuckler is significantly more defensive, especially once you have the Stance.
I don't see those as optimal builds. The One For All is better as an archetype feat on a bard or charisma caster than on the swashbuckler.
Yeah, but at that point you are not playing a Swashbuckler, but another class entirely and maybe you wanted, y'know, to play a Swashbuckler and not a Bard who would be occupied doing his buff / cast routine anyway. You only get three actions in a round.
Also, for athletics maneuvers the Gymnast Swashbuckler is very comparable to other frontline classes and pulls away after level 10 due to Derring-Do.
At this point you are kinda putting down the class unnecessarily, because you didn't discover the secret sauce which miraculously makes it as good as a Rogue or Fighter in dealing damage. It has other advantages over them in areas which you are clearly not even concerned with, as laser focused as you are on DPR comparisons. Even when SuperBidi came up with a rough build including spellcasting, you just dismissed that. I personally wouldn't want to play such a build either, but since DPR is your own god-king of premises if its even worth playing a class, it was at least a valid attempt by SuperBidi to fulfill that premise.
What does the swashbuckler have standing out for them that others cannot do as well or better?
There are a few Swash builds that can't be mirrored by other classes. The build I've given is the best Demoralizer in the game, competing with spell-based Fear spells. Guardian's Deflection is functionally a +2 circumstance to AC to all allies in your reach as long as you keep your reaction (if you want to play an Indiana Jones style Swashbuckler with a whip).
What do you think of this addition to the Finisher tag:
If your finisher misses or critically misses, you can continue to use actions with the attack trait for the remainder of your turn. The finisher tag does not apply to Escape actions with the attack trait.
What do you think of this addition to the Finisher tag:
If your finisher misses or critically misses, you can continue to use actions with the attack trait for the remainder of your turn. The finisher tag does not apply to Escape actions with the attack trait.
In my opinion, unless you allow to perform multiple Finishers per round you won't really alter the class much. Non-Finisher attacks with MAP are hardly impactful.
The time I felt most frustrated with the finisher system is with the gymnast where your gymnast mechanics mech terribly with your finisher mechanics so I endwd up frequently ignoring finishers in favours of trips and grapples and derring do. If you take reactive strike and have a fighter or ranger worth standstill in the party your be fine damage wise but ignoring a main class feature is a little sad. But that was with the old edition haven't played a remastered on yet.
As far as I am aware, Gymnasts are supposed to not be build around finishers, due to Derring-Do. They have great synergy with the Clawdancers archetype, though.
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The build I've given is the best Demoralizer in the game, competing with spell-based Fear spells.
Which has little to do with Swashbuckler, and more with the ancestry used.
Using a luck-based approach of panache generation (flashy dodge) to cast cantrips may be mechanically viable in some situations, but does not sound swashbucklery to me - electric arc as an option does not come from the class and, being one of the strongest cantrips, can offer a strong option for almost any build.
Also, for athletics maneuvers the Gymnast Swashbuckler is very comparable to other frontline classes and pulls away after level 10 due to Derring-Do.
I agree here, Derring-Do looks quite awesome. If you want to play a grappler or trip-based controller, there are lot of other options though that don't need 10 levels to "come online".
The Gymnast is missing the strength key attribute option and playing catch-up with strength martials - including the Ruffian. I find it baffling that they did not include this option.I think swashbuckling is awesome, but flavor is free and game mechanics are not - for a lot of swashbuckling there are better mechanical options, and especially thief rogue being so synergistic is relating a lot of possible builds to a "okay, i played everything else already" place.
Also, for athletics maneuvers the Gymnast Swashbuckler is very comparable to other frontline classes and pulls away after level 10 due to Derring-Do.I agree here, Derring-Do looks quite awesome. If you want to play a grappler or trip-based controller, there are lot of other options though that don't need 10 levels to "come online".
The Gymnast is missing the strength key attribute option and playing catch-up with strength martials - including the Ruffian. I find it baffling that they did not include this option.I think swashbuckling is awesome, but flavor is free and game mechanics are not - for a lot of swashbuckling there are better mechanical options, and especially thief rogue being so synergistic is relating a lot of possible builds to a "okay, i played everything else already" place.
I said "pull away" for Derring-Do, not "comparable". The Gymnast already is comparable from level 1 due to +1 circumstance bonus you get to Athletics, which later becomes a +2 circumstance bonus. I'll assume that you'll start with a +3 in STR, though.
Class feats like Flamboyant Athlete and Agile Maneuvers already give you advantages to the use of Athletics before level 10. There is high synergy with the Clawdancer archetype as well for the Gymnast. With Combination Finisher you can also include Finishers with a good chance of hitting in your rotation, although constantly generating Panache for Derring-Do is something you need to build for.
The build I've given is the best Demoralizer in the game, competing with spell-based Fear spells.Which has little to do with Swashbuckler, and more with the ancestry used.
It's a combo between Swashbuckler and Threatening Approach. I don't see another class able to use it with even half this effectiveness. So it has very much to do with the Swashbuckler.
electric arc as an option does not come from the class and, being one of the strongest cantrips, can offer a strong option for almost any build.
Once again, you miss the synergy with the Swashbuckler class. The excellent Swashbuckler action economy allows it to do the Strike + 2-action cast a spell a lot of classes would love to do.
And "not coming from this class" is a hollow argument. You know many people who speak about the Magus without mentioning Imaginary Weapon? For many classes, optimized builds include grabbing options from elsewhere. Acrobat Archetype fits the Swashbuckler very well for example.
But, as usual, it has to infuse inside the community before people accept it as "natural".
The build I've given is the best Demoralizer in the game, competing with spell-based Fear spells.Which has little to do with Swashbuckler, and more with the ancestry used.It's a combo between Swashbuckler and Threatening Approach. I don't see another class able to use it with even half this effectiveness. So it has very much to do with the Swashbuckler.
electric arc as an option does not come from the class and, being one of the strongest cantrips, can offer a strong option for almost any build.Once again, you miss the synergy with the Swashbuckler class. The excellent Swashbuckler action economy allows it to do the Strike + 2-action cast a spell a lot of classes would love to do.
And "not coming from this class" is a hollow argument. You know many people who speak about the Magus without mentioning Imaginary Weapon? For many classes, optimized builds include grabbing options from elsewhere. Acrobat Archetype fits the Swashbuckler very well for example.
But, as usual, it has to infuse inside the community before people accept it as "natural".
The magus is a caster, so much easier to see them taking imaginary weapon than Mr. Swashbuckler with his rapier taking electric arc and casting it while in range.
I'm sure that type of build can be built to be cool. I could see some swashbuckler with thrown weapons using them with electric arc as some flashy magic swashbuckler, but definitely not a build you want to have to use to do well.
Imaginary weapon on the magus synergizes well since the spells key off an attack roll and imaginary weapon doesn't make them competitive, it makes them insanely good.
Whereas electric arc on the swashbuckler makes them kind of ok. I'm not even sure how good electric arc looks as you level given to get a high proficiency for a save you have to build up a caster stat and often a caster skill to Legendary just to get master casting. That seems a very steep investment to make a class do decent damage.
Whereas electric arc on the swashbuckler makes them kind of ok. I'm not even sure how good electric arc looks as you level given to get a high proficiency for a save you have to build up a caster stat and often a caster skill to Legendary just to get master casting. That seems a very steep investment to make a class do decent damage.
Since remaster, Innate spells automatically move to Expert at level 12 so the only thing you miss is Master proficiency at level 18 (and you know I couldn't care less about level 18+). And they use Charisma as casting stat which is your secondary stat outside Gymnasts and Rascals. So the investment is just an Ancestry feat. I would really invest in a casting archetype only in an FA environment.
so much easier to see them taking imaginary weapon than Mr. Swashbuckler with his rapier taking electric arc and casting it while in range.
Still, you have no issue seeing a heavy armored Ruffian Rogue despite the extreme difference with the classic image of the Rogue. So I question your lack of imagination in this case. I'm pretty sure you'd have more of it if you were seeing the resulting build as strong.
Whereas electric arc on the swashbuckler makes them kind of ok. I'm not even sure how good electric arc looks as you level given to get a high proficiency for a save you have to build up a caster stat and often a caster skill to Legendary just to get master casting. That seems a very steep investment to make a class do decent damage.Since remaster, Innate spells automatically move to Expert at level 12 so the only thing you miss is Master proficiency at level 18 (and you know I couldn't care less about level 18+). And they use Charisma as casting stat which is your secondary stat outside Gymnasts and Rascals. So the investment is just an Ancestry feat. I would really invest in a casting archetype only in an FA environment.
so much easier to see them taking imaginary weapon than Mr. Swashbuckler with his rapier taking electric arc and casting it while in range.Still, you have no issue seeing a heavy armored Ruffian Rogue despite the extreme difference with the classic image of the Rogue. So I question your lack of imagination in this case. I'm pretty sure you'd have more of it if you were seeing the resulting build as strong.
I definitely care about the higher levels. Expert casting with a relatively low Charisma is a lot of half-damage in my experience. And a lot of risk if you're casting in melee range. I don't know how you're matching greatsword fighter damage with Reactive Strike with half-damage from electric arc every other round since you will have to generate panache to do finishers to combine them. I'd like to see this build in action to see if it matches your graph in real play with damage tracked.
Did you read what I wrote? I said I could see it, but it's not something you want to do all the time to make a swashbuckler work. A one off build here or there can be ok with someone with a concept, but a "You always have to take electric arc" to be effective type of build for a class that makes you want to imagine a flashy fighter wielding a rapier should not be required.
Ruffian rogues are slightly more armored than a thief rogue. I would not call them heavily armored. Ruffian is like a thug who likes to beat people down. Though nowhere near as effective a thug as a barb, monk, or fighter using strength.
Ruffian rogues are slightly more armored than a thief rogue. I would not call them heavily armored. Ruffian is like a thug who likes to beat people down. Though nowhere near as effective a thug as a barb, monk, or fighter using strength.
Why don't you grab a Full Plate on a Ruffian Rogue? For Strength based characters it's just so obvious, especially when you speak about optimization.
I don't know how you're matching greatsword fighter damage with Reactive Strike with half-damage from electric arc every other round since you will have to generate panache to do finishers to combine them.
By default, I don't count reactions unless you have a way to trigger them reliably. A Greatsword Fighter doesn't make enough Reactive Strike if no one trips the enemy for them (and if they have to Trip the enemy themselves they lose damage during their round, ending with the same damage output).
And I'm just running the numbers on Citricking's tool. A Finisher does a lot of damage, and the build I've used gives Frightened 2 conditions to enemies. With the occasional Electric Arc, it ends rather well.
"You always have to take electric arc" to be effective type of build
That's not what I've said. You're asking for damage so I show damage graphs and take damage options. But other options exist, Threatening Approach, Timber Sentinel, the game is full of excellent 2-action activities. But as they don't do damage I can't compare them to anything and it just leaves us with a big maybe.
you will have to generate panache
You gain Panache through free actions and reactions now. Using actions to generate Panache is a low level issue.
Ruffian rogues are slightly more armored than a thief rogue. I would not call them heavily armored. Ruffian is like a thug who likes to beat people down. Though nowhere near as effective a thug as a barb, monk, or fighter using strength.Why don't you grab a Full Plate on a Ruffian Rogue? For Strength based characters it's just so obvious, especially when you speak about optimization.
I don't know how you're matching greatsword fighter damage with Reactive Strike with half-damage from electric arc every other round since you will have to generate panache to do finishers to combine them.By default, I don't count reactions unless you have a way to trigger them reliably. A Greatsword Fighter doesn't make enough Reactive Strike if no one trips the enemy for them (and if they have to Trip the enemy themselves they lose damage during their round, ending with the same damage output).
And I'm just running the numbers on Citricking's tool. A Finisher does a lot of damage, and the build I've used gives Frightened 2 conditions to enemies. With the occasional Electric Arc, it ends rather well.
"You always have to take electric arc" to be effective type of buildThat's not what I've said. You're asking for damage so I show damage graphs and take damage options. But other options exist, Threatening Approach, Timber Sentinel, the game is full of excellent 2-action activities. But as they don't do damage I can't compare them to anything and it just leaves us with a big maybe.
you will have to generate panacheYou gain Panache through free actions and reactions now. Using actions to generate Panache is a low level issue.
Strangely enough, a lot of my players don't like to give up the 5 feet movement to use full plate. The 1 AC versus the 5 foot movement doesn't mean much to them.
And I guess the aesthetic isn't pleasing for a full plate rogue, even a ruffian. Thus no one has done it.
I'm not enamored enough of the rogue ruffian to play one. If I want a big, strong thug type, I prefer a barb or fighter.
Superbidi, I was looking at your build since it seemed interesting. As a lizardman, you can't raise cha and dex, so starting with something like STR 2 DEX 3 CON 1 INT -1 WIS 1 CHA 3 ? Or alternate with STR1 DEX 4 CON 1 INT 0 WIS 0 CHA 3?
I used alternate stats.
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I feel like if I was a swashbuckler against a high AC boss I'd focus on landing a bleeding finisher early (perhaps spending a hero point or an Aid reaction from an ally to increase my odds) and then focus on confident finisher for the chip damage on a failure. A normal strike into CF probably does better damage than a CF with no MAP, especially if you're using an agile weapon and have the agile finisher feat.
That + whatever non-strike utility you bring should keep you relevant and not relying on a the one big strike play style. You're not gonna be the battle's top tier damage dealer but swashies never are.